Trying to save my family with logic.
roslyn Feb. 2014
Yes I have raised by BIC [born in the covenant] children in the church so the blame ultimately lays on me, but right now I am trying to free them.
My biggest issue is with my oldest son, he is 17 and extremely brilliant and usually very rational. The only thing he isn't rational about is the church. He refuses to listen to evidence on anti-sites. He has studied anti-sites and has told me that he knows lots of horrid things have happened in the history of the church but he still believes the church is true.
He still thinks that there is archeological evidence of the BOM. He just wants to use faith to know the BOM is true. I am so worried about him. I guess it's funny because after all these years what I really want is for him to have a testimony that it isn't true. I hope when he goes off to college he will realize it isn't true, I hope it's a case of not wanting to admit I am right.
dissonanceresolved
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
I hear you. My DH [dear husband] and I resigned while DS [dear son] was, and still is, on a mission. DS does not want to talk about it either. The general advice I see here on the board is that, eventually, something finally causes the disbelief to reach a breaking point. That final fact that makes them think critically is different for everyone. Please remind me of this when I start crying about DS in May when he comes home, AND how hard it is to live with a TBM, AND how blind he is.
glad2see
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
We like the Bill Mckeever website (Mormon research ministry)
mrm dot org He uses lds material and he has a radio spot also/
He is very informative.
Informative videos at youtube: "17 minutes of truth" by (then) bishop Earl Erskine? or the "I was a Mormon videos" of Rauni Higley.
(Rauny was a translator of: 1) the lds manuals (when the correlation project started and also 2) at general conferences.
Rauni studied the source documents for the church leader quotes to be included in the manuals and found many problems.
this is the link to the video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tGklhhOH38
Dennis Moore
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Not to be a downer, but good luck. I could never use logic on TBM DH (what's that, remember "you can't resign from the truth").
Your DS is just going to discover things on his own- and hopefully he will. It's a total bummer.
Luckily my DS was the one who sent me on my journey out.
Best wishes and good luck.
-Dennis
brefots
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Good luck. And I really mean it. Sadly for many, logic doesn't matter in matters of faith. Let's hope that your son cares more about truth than warm fuzzies.
breedumyung
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
This would fall under the 'Santa Claus Syndrome' category.
As parents, we tell our children some fairy tales and we indoctrinate them into a fairy tale religion, as well.
When the time comes, we tell them that these fairy tales were all made up, just for fun.(some of them)
It must be difficult to have your child still believing in The Tooth Fairy.
He will figure it out.
I don't remember anyone telling me Santa wasn't real. I figured it out on my own.
randyj
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
"The only thing he isn't rational about is the church. He refuses to listen to evidence on anti-sites."
One of the things the church does very well is to prejudice peoples' minds about "anti-Mormon" material. What your son needs to do is to clear his mind of such prejudices, and study the material and come to rational conclusions just like you would with any other subject.
If you read the documentation I gave you yesterday on your other thread about polygamy, you would have seen that all of the sources I provided were from church-published, or first-hand, historical sources. Your son needs to forget about whether stuff comes from "anti sites" and concentrate on whether or not the original sources are credible.
"He has studied anti-sites and has told me that he knows lots of horrid things have happened in the history of the church but he still believes the church is true."
Even if one rationalized away "horrid things" like that, the larger questions remains: Does the church live up to its OWN CLAIMS?
For instance, the D&C states that "God will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray." So, did Joseph Smith lead the church astray when he practiced polygamy? Did Smith lead the church astray when he taught "blood atonement," and ordered the murder of his enemies? Did Brigham Young lead the church astray when he engineered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, in which more than 120 innocent Americans were murdered? Did every Mormon prophet from Smith to Kimball lead the church astray when they taught that Negroes were cursed, inferior, and weren't worthy to hold the priesthood?
Also, consider these essays that the church is putting out: they state that the church taught false things in the past, their leaders made mistakes, etc. The church itself is admitting that their past have "led the church astray." So why place any confidence in them?
"He still thinks that there is archeological evidence of the BOM. He just wants to use faith to know the BOM is true."
There is NO archaeological evidence for the BOM, none whatsoever. All of the alleged items of evidence that the church's apologists have cited over the years have been debunked. These recent DNA studies which show NO evidence of Hebrew/Semitic migration into Pre-Columbian America confirm the lack of archaelogical evidence.
A few years ago, the Mormon apologist Teryl Givens said of a stone carving found in Yemen which contained the Hebrew letters NHM: "These altars may thus be said to constitute the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon." Read more at
http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#nhm
Obviously, if Givens believed that the "NHM" carving was the FIRST item of evidence for the BOM (which it really isn't). then he is admitting that there is no other evidence, either.
As for your son wanting to use faith to know the BOM is true: How can you have faith in something that is an obvious fraud? Consider these statements from LDS scholars:
John Sorenson: "There are those who say, 'I believe that doctrine is all that is important in the Book of Mormon. We do not need to worry about its history.' We are faced, however, with the fact that most of the Book of Mormon IS history.....The history is a convincer of the authenticity of the book as much as the doctrine is."
Robert L. Millett: "The historicity of the Book of Mormon is crucial. We cannot exercise faith in that which is untrue, nor can 'doctrinal fiction' have normative value in our lives."
Roslyn, if there is no evidence that anything in the BOM even occurred, then there is nothing there to have faith IN.
twistedsister
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
I was already on my way out, but when I thought of it like this it didn't make any sense, and it became another nail in the coffin.
There are 15 million Mormons today. I would guess about half of those are active TBM Mormons. (If you've ever seen the rolls of the church there are as many inactives on the roll as actives.) So that takes us down to about 8 million. Of those TBM Mormons, probably only about half hold a temple recommend. I let mine lapse plenty even when I was TBM, and I know of plenty church going TBMs that for whatever reason don't have a recommend. So let's take that number down to 5 million. So….out of 7 billion people living on this planet, only 5 million can get into the CK and live with God? Even if you want to count all 15 million members, that is a drop in the bucket compared to 7 billion.
Doesn't seem fair, does it? Furthermore, that also means no Jews, no Buddhists, no Protestants…ONLY Mormons get to live with God. Seems pretty exclusive and unjust to me. I can't and don't believe in a God that would be so exclusive and and discriminatory. Not to mention this Mormon God gives us what seems like conditional love - that only if we complete a long checklist of things can we live with him. I believe in a God that loves us all unconditionally, no strings attached.
Maybe that will get the wheels turning a little. Good luck to you, I don't envy your position one bit. I have a 17 yr old daughter, who is a really good kid, and I hope when we sit down and have a chat with the kids (haven't done it yet), they all come to the same logical conclusions we did.
Cheryl
Logic doesn't work well with those who believe based on emotion.
Sadly, it doesn't work to fight the fire in a burning bosom with equations and scientific findings.
roslyn
Re: Logic doesn't work well with those who believe based on emotion.
What is so frustrating is he is my Spock child, you would think he would be the most willing to give it up. He is also my most stubborn child which is why I think he is pushing against me. It would be I am right, God forbid I be right. Our relationship right now is awful, I blame the church. The sad thing is the past few year the church has only brought him grief, he has been very ill and no one has been compassionate to him. I have been the compassionate one, I have been the one taking care of him and supporting him and he is angry with me. I am so hurt.
twistedsister
Re: Logic doesn't work well with those who believe based on emotion.
Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sadly, it doesn't work to fight the fire in a
> burning bosom with equations and scientific
> findings.
No, but maybe it will get the wheels turning a bit and little by little he will start to have some doubts. That is what did it for me. It wasn't any one event, it wasn't discovering the lurid truth about church history, it wasn't about a mean bishop or anything like that. It was all the doubts and questions over the years that built up until finally I couldn't reconcile them anymore.
I think the key is to do in a positive way. You don't want to come off as attacking the church or being anti-Mormon because that will cause him to shut down. Agree with him where you can but plant those seeds of doubt when appropriate.
mormonrealitycheck
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Most people join a religion based on emotions, not logic.
Accordingly, "un-joining" usually requires an emotional event, not a logical argument.
That's why it's common for people to leave because "they got their feelings hurt".
At least, that's my personal observation, for what it's worth.
jkjkjkjk
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
That darn anti Mormon Smithsonian Institute http://lifeafter.org/smithsonian/
Cheryl
Focus on the TBM's personal issues.
Mention the subjects they suggest, not the ones the exmo cares about.
We all had church issues we didn't face until our shelf became crammed and started to crumble.
What are those issues for your son?
Abuse of priesthood authority?
Lying about history?
Joseph Smith's exploits?
Conflicting doctrine?
Members who don't live up to Mormon ideals?
The only way to know is to wait and listen, then don't come off as heavy handed.
lmontr33
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Your DS has had quite a shock. He now has to work out the cognitive dissonance in his head, and it is shouting loud. Give him time. He knows what you think. He knows what he's been taught in TSCC [this so called church]. He just has to work out what is right for himself now. I would say his shelf is pretty heavy, and he's trying to support it. Give him time, give him space, give him his agency. Show him the love you have for him by letting HIM come to conclusions for himself. I'm not saying he will do what you want eventually or that for sure he'll stay in TSCC. You haven't planted as seed with him, you've given him a full grown tree, and he's not sure he wants it. If you let him keep attending meetings, it will perhaps give him what he needs. He'll notice the manipulation, the fraud, the lies. Now that you've dropped this huge bombshell on him, just be there for him, show him trust and confidence. Be there for him and do your best to refrain from talking about TSCC because he's still dealing with all the information he currently has.
imaworkinonit
Yes, his attachment to his beliefs is an emotional one.
My guess is that he thinks (or even just senses) he has too much to lose by leaving the church. He could be afraid of imagined eternal consequences of leaving, or he could lose friends and social standing. He may not be prepared to challenge any of that right now. The church is really good at implanting fears of questioning.
Plus, he's a teenager. Teenagers routinely think they are much smarter than their parents.
I would recommend backing off trying to convince him the church is a fraud. I highly recommend that you read Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control". One thing cults do really well is make their members afraid to think or question, and control access to information. If you make a direct attack on their beliefs, their defenses come up and you are perceived as a tool of Satan or something.
To get him to think, you need to take a less direct approach. You might be able to ask some thought-provoking questions about the historicity of the Bible. (Many Mormon beliefs are based on Bible stories, like the Tower of Babel, but maybe start with the creation/age of the earth, or Noah's ark). Or maybe you could start by asking why the church tries to control information that members read? If it's true, they should easily be able to counter the lies with facts. What are THEY afraid of?
roslyn
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Thank you all for your kind words. I will certainly back off. As far as church attendance his has been spotty the past year or so because he's been ill. He says he wants to go but makes no attempt to go. I will not get up early on a Sunday to get my family ready like I did for decades. If they want to go they can get up and go. I'm not being passive aggressive, I don't mind driving, I don't even mind ironing clothes but I won't do it unless asked. If they really want to continue attending then they need to do it because I will no longer be the attending for in this home.
Been there, too
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
He may just be "rebelling" a bit. Or trying to create his own identity separate from you. I think a lot of teens become vegan or whatever because they want an identity and thing that's there own. Late teens can be very smart, but their intellectually immature. Their physical brains aren't fully formed yet.
If he's in Mormon summary class, that's just a giant brainwash that's hard to overcome. Hopefully he'll go to a liberal college not in the state of Utah. Maybe some non-Mormon girl, or guy, will rock his world in college.
Stray Mutt
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Horse... Water... Drink.
roslyn
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
No seminary, he thinks it's a joke plus he doesn't go to school so why the heck would he get up at 5am to go to a religious class. He is going to school in Utah but gleefully turned down BYU. His gf is a member but not active, she has a good head on her shoulders. He is a math major so indoctrination shouldn't be a big issue.
emanon
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Roslyn,
I had a similar situation to yours. My teen daughter staunchly believed. I didn't expect anything else. I had raised her to be a believer. When she was 12 years old I stopped believing but I didn't say anything to DD per my husbands wishes. For clarification, DH was always a fence sitter when DD was younger.
As a teenager DD was told by ward members that she was more valiant than her parents, to keep on the straight and narrow path... yada yada you know the drill.
I didn't say much to DD but when she was a teenager I apologized to her for raising her in THE church. She blew me off and walked away.
I always regretted NOT telling her things I was learning.
Now DD is in her early twenties and she no longer believes. She said her path out of the LDS church started by reading a book. (forget which one)
I think it helps when your children know you no longer believe. If they come across information in the future that gives them pause to think, I think their knowing a parent or parents no longer believes gives them strength to continue reading, researching or keeping an open mind to information they are told, come across, or find.
I wish you all the best! It isn't easy.
randyj
Re: Logic doesn't work well with those who believe based on emotion.
"What is so frustrating is he is my Spock child, you would think he would be the most willing to give it up."
I got two sons like that. They sit around talking about quantum physics and black holes and string theory, and I'm just this blue-collar guy who is interested in normal stuff.
"He is also my most stubborn child which is why I think he is pushing against me. It would be I am right, God forbid I be right."
Well, kids grow up. Five years from now, he could be totally different.
"Our relationship right now is awful, I blame the church. The sad thing is the past few years the church has only brought him grief, he has been very ill and no one has been compassionate to him."
I'm sorry. May I ask what kind of illness he has?
"I have been the compassionate one, I have been the one taking care of him and supporting him and he is angry with me. I am so hurt."
Well, you know you are going to keep right on taking care of him and supporting him, for the rest of your life. Being a parent doesn't have an expiration date. Hopefully, one day he will grow up and realize how much you've done for him, and stop being angry, and start appreciating you.
You do have an odd situation where you're the one who wants to quit church and he wants to keep going. As I think back on my youth, I resented my parents most when they tried to make me do things I didn't want to do. You're not trying to make your son do anything. When we quit going to church, our kids were thrilled that they didn't have to go anymore. Who knows, a month or two from now, your son might feel the same. Once he graduates from high school and gets out on his own a little, he might "wean" himself away from church and start living his own life.
Stormin
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Good luck ----- I left the church over a year ago without DW or 2 DS and 1 DD. Most are married and have kids but only 1 daughter does not attend regularly (who was not going to church anyway) agrees. ON the other hand, my brothers and sisters all are out of the church and I am making sure they know why to stay out ---- I think mission accomplished there and what a blessing to have brain washed brothers and sisters out now.
I prayed and turned it over to God. However, last week at dinner at our place I felt inspired to asked son (in presence of another son and wife) whether he read any essays especially about JS rock in a hat translations. He started to say that was garbage then I showed it to him on LDS.org. I then showed him the "church approved" JS translation pic ----- no U/t or rock in a hat JS was reading right off the plates directly. He made the excuse it was an artist rendition ----- I said it was a lie and 100% false doctrine and was purposely put there to brain wash the kids and every other member because "lds truth" is too crazy for anyone to take seriously and cause a lot of hard questions to be asked. A multi-billion$ corp should be able to pay a few hundred for accurate paintings. He said he would ask his bishop about it.
Since that day I have been adding things to the list about how important it was to read the essay/BS on Blacks and the priesthood. Also brought up the Moroni visit to JS pic (JS alone in a single bed ---- he slept with 2 others in same bed and another 3 in another bed). But that (the truth) would cause anyone to say why didn't the others wake up and other questions that would be difficult to answer. Also, sent some Utube videos on GAs lying and idiotic teachings of JS and Brigham Young especially hitting the 1st vision issues and men on the moon. I have not got a backlash yet saying stop sending this garbage and I haven't pressed either son to ask what they think yet. Since I have got no backlash I am hoping they are at least reading these things, seeing they are supported and really problems with the church. Time will tell. If they are even reading it ---- it may become clear to them later the church is a SCAM. Not trying to convince DW (who I offered getting divorce if she gave me any static about my beliefs) or DD who is married to a nice brain washed guy but I feel it is up to him for now ----- not the right time.
jethro
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Belief is belief no logic to it when it come to something we cant see, my "belief" is that as long as they want to believe they will and nothing u can do will change that.......
summer
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
I would encourage your son to go anywhere but BYU. Encourage him to study anthropology, archeology, geology, philosophy, world religions, etc. That would have the best chance of opening up his mind.
roslyn
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
No question he will not be going to BYU, he already said no. I asked him about institute and he was appalled. Somehow he didn't know about institute, which is odd because I know I have talked about it, anyhow he said "Nope, I won't be doing that". I think getting away from home and from his LDS friends will help, at least I hope it will.
thedesertrat1
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
You cannot deal rationally with an irrational person!!!
Ex-CultMember
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
You can't tell him to stop believing or wanting to attend but you might be able to talk him into reading material with enough EVIDENCE that WILL convince him to stop believing.
I suggest printing off the following:
http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm
Then buying the following book:
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/mormonismshadoworreality_ub001.htm
Tell him you can't personally dissuade him to stop believing and that religion is his choice but tell him you can respect his beliefs and choice to be Mormon as long as he beliefs and choices are INFORMED beliefs and choices. Tell him if he reads the above you will respect his decision to remain Mormon and never try to talk him out of being Mormon.
You can't talk someone out of leaving Mormonism. The best you can do is try and get them to study the evidence and let them come to their own conclusions. If you can get them to look at the evidence there is a VERY good chance they will stop believing. There's a reason Mormons are so afraid of the evidence.
Facing Tao
Re: Trying to save my family with logic.
Logic has really nothing to do with TSCC, or with TBMs. I just had my TBM wife tell me earlier today that whatever the leadership uses the tithing money doesn't matter, only giving it matters. How do you argue with that? There is not a strand of logic left in such a thought.
"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"