Poor = Unworthy
Tupperwhere June 2013
That's something that always bothered me about the church. My family was pretty well off. We lived in a nice sub-division full of dr's, dentists, lawyers. One part of our ward was across a busy street in another sub-division. It wasn't poor like a slum, it was just more middle and lower class. Or so I was often reminded by my family and other ward members.
For example, if there was a single mom in the ward that needed help, everyone immediately knew she lived in "that" part of the ward. How dare they? Looking back now it just makes me sick.
It bothered me as a kid that people were categorized this way but of course I was young so I just went along with that thinking. Anyway, there's not a huge point or question to this thread. It's just an observation about TSCC I was reflecting upon today. Well, I guess if you want, you can say if you lived in the "dumb" or "slum" section of the ward boundary. Those are just words that rhyme btw. Don't anyone get their garments in a bunch :)
lastofthewine
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Poor people aren't lower class, just more humble. Think of how the Ensign loves to trot out stories of South Americans or Africans in difficult circumstances who accept crazy-ass American religion, through humility. Patronizing to the max.
Okay, not lower class except in North America.
liminal state
Re: Poor = Unworthy
It's gross how they evaluate spirituality with human capital. They gloat about being the true--and only true--saints of Christ, but he lived his whole life lower class.
It's a very dispiriting religion.
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
that's what I was going to say. If they are poor outside of the U.S. or Canada, then they're humble servants of God. But if they live in an apartment in West Valley they are probably scumbag unworthies that can't hold a real job because they don't pay tithing and have refuted their "blessings" due to their economic status. They are obviously alcoholics, drug abusers, gangsters or are abusing their kids.
donbagley
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I like how middle class Mormons try desperately to appear upper middle class. The four wheelers, the boats, travel trailers and mcmansions are beyond their means, but they borrow like hell to get those things. They have to appear "blessed." It's funny that they call themselves followers of Jesus while seeking wealth and the appearance of wealth. To be blessed is to be as rich as the other Pharisees.
senoritalamanita
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I had a Native American roommate from Southern Utah in college. She told me that the LDS chapels built for them in her area were pretty decrepit, compared to the bigger richer wards or stake houses in other parts of Arizona or Utah.
cults r us
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Yep! I was raised on the "wrong side of town." Then, bussed up to the rich school. Where I was treatedlike a worthless piece of crap for it. One kid said to me " you arr so cool and pretty. Why arent you with the cool kids. " Ummmm....I didnt know what to say besides "they dont need me." But, I was labeled long ago as poor and worthless mo. Just as he had been. There was nothing either of us could do to be worth something in their eyes. Didnt matter how good a person was or how smart or pretty or perfect. Never enough!!!!
drlectersdaughter
Re: Poor = Unworthy
senoritalamanita Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She told me that the LDS chapels
> built for them in her area were pretty decrepit,
> compared to the bigger richer wards or stake
> houses in other parts of Arizona or Utah.
It's the same in South America.
acerbic
Re: Poor = Unworthy - be fair
Its not just an LDS thing. Many Christian denominations have this idea that riches are proof that the person is blessed by Good. The most obvious example of that right now is Joel Osteen. There is also a thread of thought that says America is the most successful country on earth because it is blessed by the almighty.
drlectersdaughter
Re: Poor = Unworthy
This doesn't only happen in America alone though. It's the same in my home country Brazil, where wealthier members just don't hang out with the poor ones. During my mission, I served in a ward full of rich families who would attended the church meetings in some other ward so they wouldn't have to sit together or talk with the poor members in their own ward.
In Brazil, very seldom you'll see a wedding between a rich BIC person and a poor convert.
dogeatdog
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Yea, super annoying. My parents in law now have a pretty nice house in a pretty nice neighborhood and retired early. They have commented on how 'blessed' they are for living right, etc. I know they love that people in the ward see how they are NOW.
Well, what they're not sayin is that they scrimped and saved for 30 years. Their kids literally drank powdered milk and they drove the same vehicle for 20 years, and spent NO money. Plus, they were both teachers, so they had the benefits of the teachers union and state benefits and retirement. They live nice now, but the kids didn't have a lot growing up.
But, they put it off as though they were just SO blessed and that's why they are where they are now.
adoylelb
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I've heard that mentality as well, and living in one of the border states with Mexico, if someone doesn't look European came from northern Europe, they're assumed to be here illegally, even if they're the US born children of naturalized citizens or whose families became citizens due to the end of the Mexican/American War.
senoritalamanita
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I was doing pretty well in my legal career in my mid 40s and was fortunate to buy my first house in a really nice bedroom community in a suburb of Los Angeles. Because I lived with my fiancé as well as my father, together we were able to furnish it pretty nicely.
My fiance', whose ancestors came from Pennsylvania, also had a pretty good collection of antique furniture.
It was after I moved that, in a brief moment of weakness, I returned to to Mormonism and had my young son baptized.
One day the Bishop came to visit me. It was unexpected.
As I let him in the door, he looked around the house and kind of let out a gasp of surprise. He said something stupid like, "Wow, you really DO live in a nice house."
I thought to myself, "WTF?" I guess he expected that I'd live in a crack house, with beer stained sofas and gang signs on the walls.
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
good example. And that's what I hate about TBM's.
condorstrikes
Re: Poor = Unworthy - be fair
acerbic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not just an LDS thing. Many Christian
> denominations have this idea that riches are proof
> that the person is blessed by Good. The most
> obvious example of that right now is Joel Osteen.
Just to correct - you won't find any Christian *denomination* that believes this. What you will find are individual pastors (like Osteen) who trumpet this. It has to be individuals with their own self-started churches because real Christian churches won't have a bar of it.
It's called the "gospel of prosperity" and it's a heresey because it basically says that if you're not successful, it's your own fault and you must have some unresolved sin in your life. (Sound familiar)
I've attended a church where certain members started leaning this way. The rest of us moved quickly to make sure they understood why the gospel of prosperity has nothing to do with Christian principles.
Condorstrikes
baura
Re: Poor = Unworthy
And, of course, Jesus choose doctors, lawyers and rich merchants to be his apostles.
baura
Re: Poor = Unworthy - be fair
I don't want to kill anyone but I have a list of people who, if
they died, I wouldn't cry. Joel Osteen has been on that list
for a while. Dr. Oz recently made my list.
baura
Re: Poor = Unworthy
lastofthewine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think of how the Ensign loves to trot out stories
> of South Americans or Africans in difficult
> circumstances who accept crazy-ass American
> religion, through humility. Patronizing to the
> max.
With faith-promoting stories of how they took the gold fillings
from their teeth to give to the Church, or missed meals and went
hungry to pay tithing etc.
utahstateagnostics
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Tupperwhere - you ever notice the divide between people who live on east vs west of Harrison?
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
oh ya, def. I'm right on the border
Stumbling
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Keith B. McMullin, who for 37 years served within the Mormon leadership and now heads a church-owned holding company, Deseret Management Corp. (DMC), an umbrella organization for many of the church’s for-profit businesses. “We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
wow. Not surprising though.
Cowardly lion
Re: Poor = Unworthy
THERE IS A DEFINITE interpretation that if your poor youre unworthy. Ive seen that even in the mainline christian community. I had a lutherian friend tell me I wouldnt have so many problems if I "came to Christ". This was horribly insulting me! I had always tried to live the teachings of Christ. Later when I told him a christian friend in a shelter gave me an NIV bible. He looked completed baffled! Like I said elephants fly! After all; How could a christian end up homeless?Shelters R full of spiritual folk!
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
my own thread reminded me of a story. When I was little, we used to drive to the "bad" part of town and give clothes to this Guatamalan woman. All of my hand me downs went to her kids. I wish my mom was still alive so I could ask her if that was a church calling, or if she was really just trying to help someone out. I think she must have been baptised at one point but she definitely wasn't "active" because I never saw her at church over a 15 + year span. She was always really nice to us though.
iris
Re: Poor = Unworthy
This discussion reminds me of the distain Romney vocalized for those on welfare. That 47% video was illuminating.
Which also reminds me of a RS lesson where the bishop's wife was giving the lesson, and she thanked the sisters in attendance that lived on the poor side of town in the apartments--for showing other neighbors the good example of being a Mormon. I didn't write this very well--I'm sure the meaning is not being conveyed. I about fell off my chair--shocked that someone who lived in a nice home in an affluent area would think it is acceptable to deliver such a comment.
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
VERY good point about Romney's speech. The TBM truth came out in that one, no holds barred.
e2
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Christ was poor. Poor shall inherit Kingdom of God. Rich won't - unless they selflessly give away of that which they have. I don't think this is up to interpretation.
X'd at 10
Re: Poor = Unworthy
Many years ago I was briefly RSP. Less then two months. My second dsughter would walk home from school with a sweet little boy. I did know where he lived but soon discovered he lived around the corner from us. I would see him outside late at night just sitting in front of his house. I asked my little girl, a first grader at the time what she knew about him, She told me his name and that she gives him half her lunch every day at school and that his mother was sick and couldn't feed him. I went to the house that night. The boy was outside sitting on the steps. The doors to the house were locked. I could hear a womans voice calling from inside. To make a long story short, this mother had MS she was living with an alcoholic father who would lock the doors and binge. I took the boy home with me and called the bishop and the police. I tried to get help and food started for the family. I was told that the family didn't qualify for help because of their unworthyness/income. I asked the @#$%& bish if it was a Relief Society or a Selective Society. I was released the next Sunday. I feed the mother and the boy twice daily until we moved. I lost contact with the boy, I hope he is well.
Tupperwhere
Re: Poor = Unworthy
unbelievable! Church of Jesus Christ my ASS
Outcast
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I believed that for a long time. Then I had the opportunity to be a mortgage loan officer for about a year. I had to pull people's credit reports.
It shocked me how easily it was for a person to have a couple bad things happen to them and destroy their financial situation - health problems, divorce, get laid off from a job, car accident. Those things can easily knock a person from middle class to below poverty line.
It's a vicious cycle. Once your credit is messed up, it's extremely difficult to climb out of the hole - everything is more expensive - car insurance, any loan you apply for will have a higher rate.
e2
Re: Poor = Unworthy
That is true. But (depending on where you live and work) it is also possible that having good or bad credit means jack squat. I only say this as encouragement to those who have bad credit. There are ways around things.
rationalguy
Re: Poor = Unworthy
I live in a neighborhood of larger middle class homes, all rather nice but built in the late '70's. It's just a bit above the general run of houses in Orem. There used to be an old trailer park adjoining it where some poorer, older people lived. They eventually tore it down, moved them out and built a strip mall.
I was shocked once to hear the bishop speak of them as if they were a bother.. he actually bemoaned having to help some of them from time to time.
"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"