Recovery from Mormonism

by rowan Nov 2011

This is what I have understood from what I have read here and elsewhere.

All the people of earth existed as "a separate intelligence" before they agreed to become spirit children of Heavenly Father.

Heavenly Father had at one time also been "a separate intelligence" and been given the same opportunity for growth to a God by his own Heavenly Father and this same cycle has gone so-forth and so-on for all existence.

They became spirit children because Heavenly Mother had the power to take that "separate intelligence" and place it into a spirit body. (Heavenly Father has Celestial sex with her for this to take place)

Then after being spirit children for a while they agreed to come to earth and inhabit earthly bodies for a time.

Then when that earthly body dies, their spirit goes to "a waiting place" until judgement day, when each will be given their reward(s) and will have their spirit again put back into a resurrected and perfect body never to be removed from it again.

Have I got it about right? Is this how you understand it? Believe me when I tell you, that is not the "whole truth" that I learned in church.

I knew that we had a Heavenly Mother, but we were not to speak of her as she was "too holy", but the part about us being "a separate intelligence" who agreed to become the "spirit child" of a Heavenly Father, I learned here on this site.

If this is so, that means that Heavenly Father is not the creator of my intelligence, just whatever form(s) it has been housed in. Separate Intelligent into a spirit body, then that combination into an earthly body.

That would mean that I have, as a separate intelligence, always existed...something like a god, with no beginning and no end, until I agreed to Heavenly Father's plan!

If this is what is truly taught, just who came up with this of "a separate intelligence" part? Is this totally JS,Jr's idea, or did he borrow this from someone else?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 08:42AM by rowan.

jan
Isn't this the gist of JS's King Follett eulogy? Of course, I don't know that we teach that anymore... 

upsidedown
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
It is still the doctirne of eternal life as taught by Joseph Smith and others,...but not taught....sort of like heavenly mother. Sort of like most doctrine in the church that is so wacky that you must be fully committed in the faith and past being a level one believer (investigator = new member = milk before meat).

You have to go to the journal of discourses or older publications by apostles from the pre-David O McKay era of the church. Many general conference talks abounded in the nonsense of spirits living eternally as inteligences. It is all a lot of nonsense when you try to figure out what the family unit is in the next life.

If we are all brothers and sisters then why families? If I am getting busy making worlds and having celestial sex with my 50 wives in heaven then why in the world would I have my kids over to the house for a holiday dinner in heaven? Why would my kids matter at all in heaven? They would be off with their 50 wives (or be one of fifty wives, if they are a female inteligence) and they would be so dam busy humping to make billions of spirit babies and creating worlds that they would never see me. It doesn't work with the idea of a family of the correct number of people where relationships could be made.

The whole story of eternity lacks origionality and is only used to create certianty of eternal life and the ridiculous details that these regular men have tried to create to explain the theory. Most kids at age 12-14yrs old could come up with the same stories in their imagination if they were prompted to answer questions like, "where do we come from and where are we going when we die?" It is basic human reasoning to create a model of heaven to be a place to exist when we are dead (living eternally). It's been put into mythology and religious thinking for as long as mankind has been on the earth.

nebularry
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
The scenario as you described it is accurate. How to explain it or make sense of it? Don't try!

kolobian
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
What will really bake your noodle is following this line of reasoning through to its logical conclusion: that if all gods were once "intelligences" or discrete units of consciousness BEFORE they became gods, then there was necessarily a time when no gods existed.

That means that the very first god became a god without the help of any gods; no plan of salvation; no atonement; no priesthood; no endowment; no celestial marriage.

That first god sometime, somehow, became a god all on its own.

If he could do it, why can't we?

On the other hand, if there's at least one god that was always a god then why do kolobians worship Elohim?

Cheryl
God & his wives had sex in heaven which produced the spirits who fought the war in the preexistence.
We fought that war to gain our positions on earth as white mormon children born to devout mormon families in Utah.

sexismyreligion
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
It's in D&C 93:29. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
Also check out Abraham 3:18-19 and 22-23. This isn't some hidden obscure doctrine, it's right there in the canonized scriptures and was even a scripture mastery I learned in seminary. Abraham 3:22-23, "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them: thou wast chosen before thou wast born."
Didn't anyone else have to memorize this crap in early morning seminary, or was it just me?

jacob
In addition
The intelligences that didn't become organized into spirit children of God are bound to God only because of their great love of God. They however are pissed that they didn't get a chance and it is their will that no one be saved. That is why Christ came down and let himself be killed, the intelligences that don't get our level of salvation are going to let us become gods because Christ is their hero and they would never not go against his word.

When you here a Mormon say that God would cease to be God if he changed this is the same reason. Those pissed off intelligences would stop obeying him if he altered one bit from the plan that they have agreed to. Take it to the nth degree and the intelligences that got screwed are the real law and God is constrained to do only what they will allow him to do.

quebec
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
I think Plato also taught something similar to the idea of pre-existence - but obviously not like the mo church

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 02:53PM by quebec.

jacob
The term pre-existence is used wrong by every Mormon.
To think that before we were humans were are something else is different than to think that we are eternal beings who sometimes take different forms.

upsidedown
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
sexismyreligion:
Yep that was a scripture that I memorized via seminary also. I am so programmed that I was able to repeat it verbatim still.....ugh.

You are correct in that the average member carries around a triple combination every sunday and even opens it on occasion during a lesson.....but most lessons do not go into doctirne much anymore. Everything is taught from a milk based point of view and watered down to make it seem regular old mainstream christian but with a "we are better thatn them" twist in there. So people are lazy....what's new. The average member never study's the scriptures because food, sex, and entertainment are occupying our minds 24/7. So no one gets busy with the reading and studying of the doctrines because they don't give a dam about the planet kolob. (sorry kolobian if you are reading this. No offense.)

The ideas that the church was once proud to declare unto the world as revelaed truth are now approached with a different deliverly method.

I think that they have figured out since the early 80's when I was on my mission that no one in their right mind would EVER believe the far out sci-fi doctrine. So instead they get people to pray about "whatever portion of the church you understand right now". Once they convince themselves that they can believe in it because they have only been taught the simple stuff like be honest, love one another, jesus died for us, and be a good person.....then it gets ramped up to the next level. That is such a deceptive thing to do to people and it is totally dishonest to hold the truth about what the core beleifs of the doctrine are behind your back while "teaching" someone the smokescreen of "we are just christian like everyone else"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 03:23PM by upsidedown.

nickerickson
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
This is what I was taught growing up, though they may not teach it any more.

Sexismyreligion was right with the scriptures: D&C 93:29 & Abraham 3:18-19, 22-23

I'm sure if asked now, mormons would say, "I don't know that we teach that..."

Just saying...

rowan
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
Kolobian,

I like the way you put things, on many of the posts I have found your "insight" helpful.

Since I just had a small glass of wine, I think that I will let it speak...for in wine there is truth, or at least a little buzz!

Since Elohim was once like us, he must have lived on an "earth" inhabited by others like him. (Cucumbers and pickles!)

Going with this line of (fanciful) thought... there should be other Gods of Elohim's rank who have their own "universe(s)" and their own plans that could be different from his!

Doesn't all this just make your head spin? Trying to wrap my brain around and understand this belief is giving me a headache! (no, it was a small glass of wine.)

But then, you are not suppose to understand it, you are to have faith, nod "yes" and obey.

I would love to have cornered JS, Jr and had the opportunity to ask him questions on this...to see how far he could take the story line!

Makes me wonder if JS, Jr took drugs. Maybe some kind of magic mushrooms he found while treasure seeking.

Don Bagley
What if we are the first sentient beings in the universe?
There is no evidence that we aren't. I think we should act as though we're first unless we find a predecessor species. Pretending otherwise is a waste of time and mind.

kolobian
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
What you said makes perfect sense. That's my out in case kolobianism actually turns out to be true. I'll tell Elohim his plan sucks, his retention rate is disgraceful, and the payoff is underwhelming. I'll give him back the body he tricked me into wanting and travel the cosmos as an intelligence in search of a better god with a better plan.

He can't hold me hostage in one of his kingdoms. That would be compulsion and supposedly that's not in the program.

Another thought that is bong-worthy: what if that's already happened and Elohim is the better god with the better plan? (shudders)

baura
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
rowan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Makes me wonder if JS, Jr took drugs. Maybe some
> kind of magic mushrooms he found while treasure
> seeking.

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm

anagrammy
The Plan of Salvation is a Mess
I once saw a flow chart--I'm sure most of you have seen it too. Cross arrows and side notes, zigging and zagging everywhere.

The Mormon Plan of Salvation is important enough to get baptized for, but not important enough for the prophet to remember he ever learned it. Hmmmm. Sounds like the teachings of men mingled with scripture to me.

When you start analyzing it, you realize that it is like the Winchester Mystery House. Added upon and added upon because poor insane Mrs. Winchester was told by a psychic that she would never die as long as the house was under construction. So we have the staircases that go up to--nowhere, doors with no rooms behind them, and a bewildering conglomerate of disconnected and interconnected rooms.

Every prophet that came along had to prove his bones by "revealing" something that would make people go "Ahhhh, the Lard has revealed his secrets to his servant, the Prophet (Name)." Joseph Smith threw so much manure out into this garden that there is fertilizer enough for any goofy theory at all.

I have only to point to the Adam-God theory as proof. Throw that on your flowchart and the whole thing wriggles right off the page in a convoluted fury.

I like the Mormon easy-out "none of this is necessary for your salvation, so don't worry about it." Right. And since I am no longer worried about my salvation at all, none of this is necessary is right on.

Anagrammy

paintinginthewin
I don't think its secret or intended to be secret its really basic.
its a really simple basic idea.

its, the idea of having a specific intellect or being in existence before birth here on earth- shared with many world religions.

re: specifics about getting processed or whomever however helps or assists before birth - details differ between faiths. eyh

not a big deal.

sherlock
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
Something I hadn't really thought about before: If we accept the Mormon view of multiple Gods - do we automatically therefore have to accept the theory that there are multiple universes for them to each inhabit?

sherlock
More bizarre questions...
And how many intelligences need to rebel against God before he loses his status? Does it matter if just a few choose to disregard him or does it have to be all?

If all, what if one or two less smart intelligences can't be bothered to rebel or just don't get it?

How do these intelligences communicate with each other to share their frustration, without the form of a spirit & body?

Is an intelligence more powerful than us? Seems like they can choose to disregard the plan and all of a sudden God is extinguished, but if we opt to disregard plan we are condemned for eternity??

babyraptorjesus
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
When I went to BYUI last year I would ask ridiculous questions like "Did ELohim have a savior like Jesus Christ?" but I can't quite remember the response I got. I'm pretty sure someone quoted some old talk that pretty much said yeah, can anyone verify this?

Also the god's god's god's thing is such a contradiction. If that is true then what about all the "Alpha and Omega" non sense? If Elohim had a god and that god had a god there's a never ending regress which doesn't make sense.

rowan
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
To baura:

Thanks for the info...I really had no prior knowledge of this. I wrote that statement because so much of what JS, Jr told seem to fit a "drug-induced high".

jpt
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
What was once overt, outright LDS doctrine is now hidden away.... relegated to be anti-mormon lies.

Re being a secret? Yes and no. They can't be "real" Christians and believe all that stuff, even though much of it can be doctrinally and scripturally supported. Old prophets are pretty worthless - just like the current ones and their words will eventually be discarded as products of their time.

anagrammy
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
Are the (angry) intelligences you speak entities in the same state of existence as the "naked" intelligences that sons of perdition are said to become?

Ana

presbyterian
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
This whole idea is so not Biblical. I refer to John 1:3 "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being."

Plain old Biblical Christianity has a lot fewer ideas and is less headache inducing, in my opinion.

kolobian
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
John 1:3 is speaking about the "Word" which turns out to be Jesus, who is "the Son" so we know that all things doesn't really refer to ALL THINGS since the Son didn't create the Father or the Holy Ghost.That's two things right there that weren't created by Jesus.

The bible is the big book of multiple choice and anything can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to say.

jpt
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
I was referring to the LDS scriptures and the church's leaders, not the bible, and how LDS theology doesn't agree with conventional Christianity. Sorry I wasn't clear. But then again, we're just arguing about "my myths are better than your myths."

Thread Killer
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
The way I understand it is that after death you wait a short time, depending on how far away the Resurrection Ship is, then your intelligence gets put into a perfect new body just like the old one, and if you're good, you get to spend eternity frakking Number 6, Starbuck, and Boomer.

That is LDS theology, right?

derrida
Re: Is this the LDS "secret" of how we came to be here?
"Christianity is Platonism for the masses." -- Nietzsche

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"