show me the source that says:
“all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
any reputable source at all...
i didnt see this anywhere Steve... please show this non reader this... i must be blind or something...help a brother out will ya?
also:

--Defining “Religious Delusional Disorder”

First, it's important to get a handle on the term.

In quantifiying what constitutes a "religious delusional disorder," a line needs to be drawn between what is meant by a delusional disorder, as opposed to what represents a notion that is afforded exaggerated status:

“ . . . [M]aking a distinction between a delusion and an overvalued idea is important, the latter representing an unreasonable belief that is not firmly held.

"Additionally, personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures."

(Shivani Chopra, MD; Raheel A. Khan, DO; James A. Bourgeois, OD, MD, MPA; and Donald M, Hilty, MD, "Delusional Disorder," updated 10 March 2011, in "Medscape Reference: Drugs, Diseases and Procedures," at: http://reference.medscape.com/)

[M]aking a distinction between a delusion and an overvalued idea is important, the latter representing an unreasonable belief that is not firmly held.
The PI's do not say that ALL religious people are delusional but
you seem to want to take the view that ALL religious people are delusional(and need psychiatric help) even though they have a belief that is is firmly held by a large segment of the populace...which is where i think you are wrong...
I think religion is an overvalued idea ...not a delusional in the clinical sense.

are you positing that ALL religious people need therapy?
i would say that some do as the evidence suggests...but ALL??
it further seems to me that you deal in absolutisms...something that reputable Principal Investigators dont do.
just sayin!
more from me:
Steve if you would say that:
religion CAN
religion May
religion SOMETIMES
religion WHATEVER
it is your absolutism i have a problem with.
even if you prefaced it with i believe...it wouldnt sound like
ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE DELUDED.
and to me using the word deluded or delusional is an insult.
is that your intent?
just sayin.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 01:04PM by bignevermo.

:) yup this horse is definitely a dead beaten horse and in that light... this is all i will say about that..for now!!

You can go back now (as you are frantically trying to do by trying to backfill but you've already demonstrably been counter-proven by the reiteration of points, combined with quotes, brought to your attention from the OP).

frantically? really where do you get that from? i am not frantic about anything... and
counter-proven? huh where? you dont address my above contentions anywhere!!

and brother of Jerry?
is there anything of substance you wish to add?
was that supposed to be quip aimed at me? or SB??
yes some delusional people are religious...some religious people are delusional
not ALL religious people are delusional and not ALL delusional people are religious.
Isnt that what SBis saying?? that ALL religious people are delusional? that may be someones opinion...but scientific fact? sorry the data dont show it...especially if you use the clinical definition of delusional.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 01:50PM by bignevermo.

In response to my observation in another thread that "[r]eligion is inherently antithetical to reason," a poster replied:

"dont forget SB that ALL people affiliated with a religion are DELUSIONAL!! yep...every one!!"
_____


That response came from "bignevermo."

As "bignevermo" also said in that same above post, I'm glad "bignev" got it in, too.

("dont forget SB that ALL people affiliated with a religion are," posted by "bignevermo," on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 3 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356679,356733#msg-356733)
_____


I've already dealt with, and dispatched, "bignev's" previous deluded assertions, point by point, in a now-closed thread, here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,357128#msg-357128


Beating a dead horse into a pink pulp, indeed.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 02:33PM by steve benson.

those first two items were sarcasm..... sorry i didnt know that you would take that as serious!!
i thought you were an astute reader...
and you may have thought you answered my assertions point by point...
but you did not!!
i see you still have failed to produce my direct and succinct question:
show me the source that says:
“all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
any reputable source at all...
why cant you show me ONE?
it is your absolutism i have a problem with.
even if you prefaced it with i believe...it wouldnt sound like
ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE DELUDED.
and to me using the word deluded or delusional is an insult.
is that your intent?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:55PM by bignevermo.

. . . but for me to link to the now-closed thread in which your deluded skimmings were re-quoted back to you, via succinct countervailing evidence from the OP that you apparently didn't read or absorb very well.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,357128#msg-357128



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 02:38PM by steve benson.

**Religion as an Environmental Factor in Mental Disorder

You categorically claimed:

“Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.”

Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:

(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and

(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor.
_____

and didnt you read or comprehend my reply to this?
the unquoted words are yours are they not? i mean no Principal Investigator would say:
"astute readers would know of its role in that regard..."
and i was revising this when the time ran out Sat. night...i should not have written:"although none actually state that.”
religion definitely CAN be an environmental factor in mental illness.... although religion is only a small part of the "environment". heavy metals,where you are born,your mothers milk,etc. are also part of the environment.

when you are speaking of scientific studies you have to be succinct and specific.. as do the PI's that actually conduct the research. they dont make extraordinary claims and yet you use their research on this and other issues and you then make assertions and make conclusions that they(the PI's) dont!

form the "unread" Biggy!!


pay Steve particular attention to this:
and i was revising this when the time ran out Sat. night...i should not have written:"although none actually state that.”
religion definitely CAN be an environmental factor in mental illness.... although religion is only a small part of the "environment". heavy metals,where you are born,your mothers milk,etc. are also part of the environment.

again i ask unambiguously:
you state:
not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
"not every"..that must mean there is at least one...
show me the source that says:
“all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
any reputable source at all...
certainly NONE of your sources you cite here...
just sayin...

Perhaps the third time is the charm in helping you (and observers) see how you hung yourself with your own noose.

As they say, never interfere when your opponent is committing hari kiri:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,357128#msg-357128

:)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 04:39PM by steve benson.

nite??? is that because you want to distract from my direct question you will not answer??
again i ask unambiguously:
you state:
not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
"not every"..that must mean there is at least one...
show me the source that says:
“all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
any reputable source at all...
certainly NONE of your sources you cite here...
just sayin...

well?? i thought i was the one in the seafood business...
<<sniff sniff>> i smell ANOTHER(SAME OLE) RED HERRING!!
I have already addressed that more that once...
here maybe if you read it in caps lock:
I WAS REVISING SAID QUOTE ON SATURDAY NIGHT WHEN TIME RAN OUT...AS PROVED BY MY TIME ON THE LAST POST OF THE NIGHT...8:58 I SHOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN THE LAST PART AND WAS GOING TO REVISE THE STATEMENT.

"although none actually state that.”
and just how have i shot myself and commited SEPPUKU...BECAUSE I COULD NOT REVISE SOMETHING? and it is only relevent in the fact that it was an error on my part that i was in the process of correcting and does not diminish my original point.
that you make claims....you show your "research" and then come to conclusions that the Principal Investigators do not!!
also your appeal to authority kinda shocks me...as does your red herrings.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:30PM by bignevermo.

so you throw out insults when people disagree with you...or show where your articles and sources dont back up your extraordinary claims?
and here you are disengenuous again by not seperating your thoughts from an article you cite:

"Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:

(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and

(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor."

the text in quotes are only YOUR WORDS RIGHT?...SO HOW DOES THAT PROVE ANYTHING? you keep refering to it... do you think that much of yourself?
i have alredy asked you to clear this up...and your refusal indicates to me that it is on purpose...
in the above A)is just your way of saying i am not astute
and B) is true... there are cited sources that say that some delusions may have religious correlations and to a "lay" person that may mean that all religions CAUSE DELUSIONS...WHICH YOU INFER...no actually outright claim! with NOT ONE source that you will/can cite backing that claim!
you are to me an arrogant condescending absolutist that cant back up your claims!!
_____



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:31PM by bignevermo.

Just a bit ago, in this very thread, you said (and again I quote, because your quotes are damn killin' ya):

"here is another one... THEN I AM OFF THIS DAMN HORSE!!:)"

(emphasis added)

("LOL!!!," posted by "bignevermo." on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 5 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357316,357417#msg-357417}



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:36PM by steve benson.

and i am right...ANOTHER RED HERRING...wow steve you have so many red herrings...maybe you ought to consider selling some...i have all the industry contacts!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 06:03PM by bignevermo.

delusion (d-lzhn)
A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as [but not limited to] a symptom of mental illness, as in schizophrenia.


This is the most common definition I see online of delusion. In no case does it state that delusion is necessarily a symptom of mental illness.

Delusion can be, as defined, a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence. I think that applies quite perfectly to religion.

Delusions
Definition
A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion. Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.
Description
Delusions are a common symptom of several mood and personality-related mental illnesses, including schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, shared psychotic disorder, major depressive disorder, and bipolar disorder. They are also the major feature of delusional disorder. Individuals with delusional disorder suffer from long-term, complex delusions that fall into one of six categories: persecutory, grandiose, jealousy, erotomanic, somatic, or mixed. There are also delusional disorders such as dementia that clearly have organic or physical causes.
Persecutory
Individuals with persecutory delusional disorder are plagued by feelings of paranoia and an irrational yet unshakable belief that someone is plotting against them, or out to harm them.
Grandiose
Individuals with grandiose delusional disorder have an inflated sense of self-worth. Their delusions center on their own importance, such as believing that they have done or created something of extreme value or have a "special mission."
Jealousy
Jealous delusions are unjustified and irrational beliefs that an individual's spouse or significant other has been unfaithful.
Erotomanic
Individuals with erotomanic delusional disorder believe that another person, often a stranger, is in love with them. The object of their affection is typically of a higher social status, sometimes a celebrity. This type of delusional disorder may lead to stalking or other potentially dangerous behavior.
Somatic
Somatic delusions involve the belief that something is physically wrong with the individual. The delusion may involve a medical condition or illness or a perceived deformity. This condition differs from hypochondriasis in that the deformity is perceived as a fixed condition not a temporary illness.
Mixed
Mixed delusions are those characterized by two or more of persecutory, grandiose, jealousy, erotomanic, or somatic themes.
Causes and symptoms
Some studies have indicated that delusions may be generated by abnormalities in the limbic system, the portion of the brain on the inner edge of the cerebral cortex that is believed to regulate emotions. The exact source of delusions has not been conclusively found, but potential causes include genetics, neurological abnormalities, and changes in brain chemistry. Delusions are also a known possible side effect of drug use and abuse (e.g., amphetamines, cocaine, PCP).
Diagnosis
Patients with delusional symptoms should undergo a thorough physical examination and patient history to rule out possible organic causes (such as dementia). If a psychological cause is suspected, a mental health professional will typically conduct an interview with the patient and administer one of several clinical inventories, or tests, to evaluate mental status.
Treatment
Delusions that are symptomatic of delusional disorder should be treated by a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. Though antipsychotic drugs are often not effective, antipsychotic medication such as thioridazine (Mellaril), haloperidol (Haldol), chlorpromazine (Thorazine), clozapine (Clozaril), or risperidone (Risperdal) may be prescribed, and cognitive therapy or psychotherapy may be attempted.
Key terms
Hallucinations — False or distorted sensory experiences that appear to be real perceptions.
Paranoia — An unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others.
Shared psychotic disorder — Also known as folie à deux; shared psychotic disorder is an uncommon disorder in which the same delusion is shared by two or more individuals.
If an underlying condition such as schizophrenia, depression, or drug abuse is found to be triggering the delusions, an appropriate course of medication and/or psychosocial therapy is employed to treat the primary disorder. The medication, typically, will include an antipsychotic agent.
Prognosis
Delusional disorder is typically a chronic condition, but with appropriate treatment, a remission of delusional symptoms occurs in up to 50% of patients. However, because of their strong belief in the reality of their delusions and a lack of insight into their condition, individuals with this disorder may never seek treatment, or may be resistant to exploring their condition in psychotherapy.
Resources
Organizations
American Psychiatric Association. 1400 K Street NW, Washington DC 20005. (888) 357-7924. http://www.psych.org.
American Psychological Association (APA). 750 First St. NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242. (202) 336-5700. ttp://www.apa.org.
National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI). Colonial Place Three, 2107 Wilson Blvd., Ste. 300, Arlington, VA 22201-3042. (800) 950-6264. http://www.nami.org.
Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.

so if ya want to say someone is delusional in their beliefs... obviously ya got that right...but it is not accurate in the clinical sense at all. which these last two or three threads have been about!
just sayin



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 01:58PM by bignevermo.

Oh ok. Gotcha. All I have to say then is:

My definition's dad can beat up your definition's dad.

here is another one...then i am off this damn horse!! :)

A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.
hey i know it is wiki...but they do cite their sources!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 04:46PM by steve benson.

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power , especially a personal God or gods:
ideas about the relationship between science and religion[count noun] a particular system of faith and worship:
the world’s great religions
THATS FROM OXFORD...

You know we are all in the same boat here...we are here, we will die, we don't know what happens (if anything) afterwards. We don't know all the answers about the earth and the universe. So we are "unsettled". We make guesses to help us cope with this crappy situation. That takes the form of atheism (denying, without absolute proof, that there may be a "higher power") or religiousity (explaining the unexplainable with the explanation of "God").

I think some people do go to far in their religious zeal. I think some atheists become a bit too "evangelical" for me. The whole idea that ALL religous people are delusional, is, well, delusional in itself and the person who stated as much needs a bit of friendly advice.

Friendly advice: They are not all delusional. They are offended by your stating such. Be nice. You'll live longer and feel better (statistically speaking, not individually).

Atheism is not the denial that there "may be" a higher power. It's simply the lack of a belief or claim that such a being does in fact exist.

Lack of belief in any gods does not equal the assertion that no gods exist.

Is that really so difficult to understand? Really?

I have no belief in any gods. I also do NOT assert that no gods exist.

When an atheist dares push back in a counter-culture sort of way against the societal-saturated mythologies of religion, the evangelists often reactively respond with the only terminology to which they can relate: words that are religious--words like "evangelizing."
_____


P.S.: Mormons are offended when I call their religion a "cult." Not all religions are cults, they say; especially not theirs.

Friendly advice: I still call it a cult.

As Benjamin Franklin said, "The sting of the reproach is the truth of it."



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:21PM by steve benson.

did you read and absorb this Steve?

Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.
that is from:
Resources
Organizations
American Psychiatric Association. 1400 K Street NW, Washington DC 20005. (888) 357-7924. http://www.psych.org.
American Psychological Association (APA). 750 First St. NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242. (202) 336-5700. ttp://www.apa.org.
National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI). Colonial Place Three, 2107 Wilson Blvd., Ste. 300, Arlington, VA 22201-3042. (800) 950-6264. http://www.nami.org.
Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.
jeez by clinical definition... you whole premise is false.

so if ya want to say someone is delusional in their beliefs... obviously ya got that right...but it is not accurate in the clinical sense at all. which these last two or three threads have been about!
just sayin

but feel free to call these sources and be an advocate for your assertion! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:42PM by bignevermo.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357316,357635#msg-357635



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 05:45PM by steve benson.

and besides the last two times you said that i couldnt leave a thread.. you were wrong because ...i did...so since you wont/cant answer my direct unambiguous question...here some more for you viewing pleasure:
Delusion/Delusional disorders
...More Articles of Interest
.
Delusions are generally experienced by people suffering from a severe psychotic disorder, usually schizophrenia, although delusional thinking can occur in other types of patients (as the result of drug or alcohol abuse, for instance). Typical delusional ideas are categorized into delusions of grandeur, in which a person imagines for him or herself some God-given purpose or, in some cases, believe they are in fact historical personalities of great importance. Another type of delusion are delusions of persecution, in which a patient will believe that some person or group is out to harm him. Still another set of delusions involve what are referred to as "command hallucinations," in which a person hears voices telling him or her to commit an act. These delusional thoughts can lead people to acts of self-mutilation or to violent criminal acts.

Many psychological disorders feature aspects of delusional thought. People suffering from depression often experience delusions such as beliefs that they are worthless, sinful, or too unlikable to engage productively in society. Other forms of delusional thinking occur in people with somatoform and dissociative identity disorders. These include body dysmorphic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and multiple personality disorder.

John Junginger, a clinical scientist at Indiana University, studied 138 patients who exhibited delusional beliefs and developed a scale of "bizarreness." Junginger identified the 12 types of delusional beliefs (including those mentioned above) as well as several others, such as "insertion" and "control." After categorizing delusional thoughts as such, Junginger conducted another study, attempting to discern how well his categories could predict violent behavior. Describing the study in Omni magazine, Steve Nadis wrote that "Junginger suspects psychotics are more likely to act out their false beliefs if they have involved, highly `systematized' delusions." That is, elaborate delusional beliefs correlate more highly with violent behavior than vague delusional beliefs; so that someone who believes that some unidentified person is out to hurt them is less likely to act violently than someone who believes that a specific neighbor has been sending him messages to kill himself through the walls.

While researchers such as Junginger have sought out methods to predict violence as a result of delusions, other psychologists have been attempting to explain the occurrence of delusional thoughts. One intriguing idea, proposed by G.A. Roberts in the British Journal of Psychiatry in 1991, is that delusions actually help psychotic and schizophrenic patients by providing them with a detailed sense of purpose for their lives. Roberts found that people currently exhibiting delusional behavior were less depressed than those who had been delusional but were recovering.

•Nadis, Steve. "Dangerous Delusions: Making Sense of Senseless Behavior." Omni (December 1994): 32.
•Starr, Cynthia. "A `Secret Disorder' Yields to Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors." Drug Topics (5 July 1993): 20.

Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 2001.
note especially this:
One intriguing idea, proposed by G.A. Roberts in the British Journal of Psychiatry in 1991, is that delusions actually help psychotic and schizophrenic patients by providing them with a detailed sense of purpose for their lives. Roberts found that people currently exhibiting delusional behavior were less depressed than those who had been delusional but were recovering.

so you see...SOME delusions actually HELP!! :)

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 06:03PM by steve benson.

i just said i would get off the horse...and yes i am blaming you because:
you wont /cant answer my direct unambiguous question.
i can appreciate you tenacity also Steve....you remind me of Capt. Allgren...you still keep getting up after you getting your ass kicked!! :) i admire that!! :)

Exactly who's ass has been kicked?

The world is still awaiting robertb's answer to the direct, unambigous question:

What's your best argument that the DSM is correct.

Ride that for a while.

That's like Mormons saying their prophets don't have to always preface their proclamations with "thus saith the Lord" in order to make them legit.

Here's your proclamation:

"here is another one... THEN I AM OFF THIS DAMN HORSE!! :)" (emphasis added)
_____


No, you're not off that damn horse, even though you said after posting yet "another one" of your items, you'd be climbing down from your pony.

Still up there, I see.

See what religion does in deluding you? :)

Giddyup!!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 06:54PM by steve benson.