--The Delusional Aspects of Religious Belief

Before believers blindly declare that religious belief is not a delusional affliction, it is important to realize that mental health professionals approach the issue from various points of view.

From the "Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders":

“Even using the DSM-IV-TR . . . , classification of delusional disorder is relatively subjective. . . . The utility of diagnosing the syndrome rather than focusing on successful treatment of delusion in any form of illness is debated in the medical community. . . .

“The cultural relativity of 'delusions'--most evident where the beliefs shown are typical of the person's subculture or religion yet would be viewed as strange or delusional by the dominant culture--can force complex choices to be made in diagnosis and treatment.

“An example could be that of a Haitian immigrant to the United States who believed in voodoo. If that person became aggressive toward neighbors issuing curses or hexes--believing that death is imminent at the hands of those neighbors--a question arises. The belief is typical of the individual's subculture, so the issue is whether it should be diagnosed or treated. If it were to be treated, whether the remedy should come through Western medicine or be conducted through voodoo shamanistic treatment is the problem to be solved."

(“Delusional Disorder,” in “Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders,” at: http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#ixzz1fSoBP5Xb)
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--Defining “Religious Delusional Disorder”

First, it's important to get a handle on the term.

In quantifiying what constitutes a "religious delusional disorder," a line needs to be drawn between what is meant by a delusional disorder, as opposed to what represents a notion that is afforded exaggerated status:

“ . . . [M]aking a distinction between a delusion and an overvalued idea is important, the latter representing an unreasonable belief that is not firmly held.

"Additionally, personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures."

(Shivani Chopra, MD; Raheel A. Khan, DO; James A. Bourgeois, OD, MD, MPA; and Donald M, Hilty, MD, "Delusional Disorder," updated 10 March 2011, in "Medscape Reference: Drugs, Diseases and Procedures," at: http://reference.medscape.com/)


As to defining the term "religious delusional disorder" itself, an observational study on the subject by M. Raja, A. Azzoni and L. Lubich offers the following:

“Traditionally, religious delusion, with or without hallucinations, has been associated with schizophrenia, affective psychoses, complex partial seizure disorder and drug-induced psychoses. Recent reports have associated religious delusion with epileptic postictal psychosis, psychoses characterized by self-inflicted injuries, psychoses induced by general medical illnesses and mystical religious fervor.”

(The authors add, however, that "[l]ittle is known about the clinical features associated with religious delusion and how religious delusion may differ across various diagnostic groups.. . . Although religious delusion has regularly been reported throughout the history of neuropsychiatry, surprisingly, there is no systematic study of religious delusion in unselected populations of psychiatric patients").

(M. Raja, A. Azzoni and L. Lubich, “Religious Delusion: An Observational Study of Religious Delusion in a Population of 313 Acute Psychiatric In-Patients,” in “Schwetzer Archive for Neurology and Psychiatry," 151, January 2000, p. 22, at: http://www.sanp.ch/pdf/2000/2000-01/2000-01-058.PDF)


A “religious delusion” has further been defined as "[a]ny delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person is a god, or chosen to act as a god, for example).”

(“Delusion,” under “Themes,” at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion)


Religious delusionalism has also been defined by certain indicators, as described in the article, "Social Conscience and Rational Thinking":

“The patient is an expert at rationalizing delusional beliefs with nonsensical reasoning. This person has unquestioning belief of leaders and accepts as facts events based on hearsay. Patients make inferences about events based on less information than non-delusional people use. This jumping-to-conclusions bias leads to delusional interpretations of ordinary events. For example, this rationalization allows patients to conclude books such as the Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran, Lord of the Rings, and Cat in the Hat are based on real events."

Defining "religious delusional disorder" is made more understandable through recognition of its symptoms within the larger context of what constitutes a "delusional disorder," as outlined thusly:

“1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. They believe in the delusion without regard to any conflicting evidence.

“2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient’s life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

“3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

“4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. Religious people don’t laugh much when questioned about their delusions.

“5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

“6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.

“7. The belief is, at the least, very unlikely, like:

--American Indians are of Israeli descent;

--the Garden of Eden is in Missouri;

--polygamy was ordained by God;

--your leader talked with an angel;

--God had sex with Mary;

--Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers;

--green tea is bad;

--God punishes people by turning their skin dark;

--[the] Second Coming of Christ [is] right around the corner (for the last 180 years);

--[an] Aaronic priesthood holder has more power than U.S. president;

--[it's] okay for [the] Three Nephites to retrieve cats from trees;

--tattoos are bad;

--[the] Devil owns the waterways; and

--so forth.

“8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

“9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.

“10. Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.”

(“Social Conscience & Rational Thinking: God Myths Have Survived Because Smart People Are Very Good at Rationalizing Things That They Came to Believe for Non-Smart Reasons,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” 11 July 2011, at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)
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--Unjustified Separation of Delusional Disorders from Their Religious or Cultural Context

Some try to exclude religious or cultural factors from the definition of “delusion,” but the folly of that effort is immediately made clear in an assessment entitled, “Religious and Cultural Exemptions to Delusional Disorder" (based upon essentially the same basic 10 indicators of delusion, with some slight variations):

“The following can indicate a delusion . . . :

“--The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.

“--That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patients life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

“--Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

“--The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

“--There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

“--An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.

“--The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.

“--The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

“--The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.

“--Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien."

Given these descriptors of religious delusion, the question is then asked:

“Why do religions and cultural groups get the exemption? A mental disorder is only a disorder in particular contexts?“

(Doug Reardon, “Religious and Cultural Exemptions to Delusional Disorder,” January 2011, in “Think Atheist,” at: http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/religious-and-cultural)
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--Religious Linkage with Schizophrenic Delusion

From the article, "Religious Disorders Are Common Symptons of Schizophrenia":

“Scientists have concluded that there is a deeply manifested relationship between religion and schizophrenia.

"Common symptoms of non-treated schizophrenics include delusions of both spirituality and religiousness. Religious belief delusions vary across cultures. The impact of religion does not always have a positive outcome. . . .

“Researchers studied patients having religious delusions to determine how religious beliefs and practices influenced psychotic illness. They found that religious delusions and hallucinations may lead to violent behavior. Kraya and Patrick found that religious delusions led some patients to commit homicide.

"Field and Waldfogel, et al., along with Waugh in a separate study, found that religiously deluded people have quoted Bible scripture after plucking out one or more eyes or cutting off the testicles. Religious delusions about the anti-christ have led other patients toward violent behaviors.

“In a ongoing study by Mohr and Huguelet, their delusional patients who believed they had a close relationship with God believed that God told them to inflict serious bodily injury to themselves or to others.

"They found that these same patients heard God's voice telling them to pray, to go to church, to read their Bible and not to take medication because it hinders their praying and quiets God's voice in their mind.

“In a study of inpatients with schizophrenia, conducted by Siddle and Haddock, et al., those with religious delusions were the most severely ill with religious delusions that were more frequently observed and lasted for longer periods of time . . .

“Most psychiatric studies that have been done assessed how religious beliefs and practices influence psychotic manifestation. . . . Mohr and Huguelet [noted] . . . psychotic patients [who] stated having the following religious delusions:

“'One night, I was persecuted by voices, I drove a knife into my belly to kill the demons.'

"'Once, during a crisis of anxiety, I was controlled by others.'

"'I believed myself to be in a relationship with God, I had to kill myself to save the children [playing in front of his house]. It was an obligation. I took a leash to hang myself. The leash broke. I fell down. The children were still alive. The anxiety went away.'

"'The psychiatrists say about me, “mental disorganization.' I find answers to my problems in the Bible. Medication puts my thoughts in order. The question is to know to whom I will submit myself for the organization of my mind.'

"'I hear voices who tell me to say 'God is great' and things like that. I have to pray. It is a cult that persecutes me. Medication puts me to sleep and so hinders me from praying.'

“Three other patients went on to say:

"'I believed I was possessed by demons. I'd go to an exorcist priest. He taught me the gospel and he cast out the demons . . .'

"'I don't know if what I see are the spirits of the dead or if I am crazy, so I have to learn more about spiritualism . . . '

"'I don't know why I suffer from deep anxiety and hallucinations. The psychiatrist told me it was nerves, and the pastor and the members of my church pray for me to be delivered from bad things in the name of Jesus . . .'

"And more:

"'I have had spiritual experiences. They make me feel unique, but when I see and hear the voice telling me "kill yourself!," it doesn't help me. I have made numerous suicidal attempts.'

"'I want to live the eternal life today. What do you think about being injected to rejoin God?'

"'I don't know why I suffer from deep anxiety and hallucinations. The psychiatrist told me it was nerves, and the pastor and the members of my church pray for me to be delivered from bad things in the name of Jesus . . . '

“The research . . . cited [above] was carried out on patients having specific religious delusions, and not on patients who had a general disassociative disorder. . . .

“Hearing one's own voice in one's head is normal. It's called 'thinking.' Hearing someone/something else's perceived voice is not normal. It's called 'delusion.' There is a difference. Not only that, some schizophrenics hear voices coming out of [the] TV talking just to them. . . .

“ . . . [G]enerally, . . . violent behavior is a result of the voices they hear. There are many schizophrenic patients who hear voices but are not violent. Then there are those patients who internalize their violence . . . . And jails throughout the world are full of schizophrenics who were violent to others.

"Not all of these cases are based on religious delusions but scientists . . . have already proven there is a pathological connection between schizophrenia and religious delusion. Treatment is iffy at best with these folks because when they take their medication, they realize they aren't as 'religious' as they were off their medication so their treatment often fails. Then there are those who comply with their treatment plan and realize that their obsessive-compulsive religious thoughts and behaviors were a result of their psychiatric diagnosis.

“ . . . [P]eople who say they hear God or angels or Marie Antoinette or one of the Caesars talking to them probably need to have a psychiatric evaluation. The problem . . . is that religion is perceived to be 'good' and, therefore, acceptable when one hear's God's 'voice' in their mind.

"Unfortunately, many don't get help because of their pre-conceived religious perception. Then the problem exacerbates and often their peers continue to egg them on when they need serious psychiatric help. The line has to be drawn at some point where successful intervention can be made. So often with religious folk, that line gets extended beyond a normal mental state where treatment can be perceived as satanic."

"[The people studied] had already been diagnosed as schizophrenic and psychotic with religious delusions . . . [with] study [being] done specifically on the religiously deluded. There have been a minimum of 78 peer-reviewed research studies published on religious delusion that were cited . . . so the case is not an isolated one."

(“Religious Delusions Are a Common Symptom of Schizohrenia,” posted “Medicine*Woman,” in “Sciforums.com,” at: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51361&page=3)
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--Religous Delusional Disorder and Personal Revelation

From the article, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations":

“ . . . [S]chizophrenia is a better and simpler explanation for all the people--past and present--who have claimed that [the] Bible god spoke to them.

"Occum's Razor demands the simplest explanation and this explains the 'revelations' of the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter and religious fanatics a lot better than that the omnipotent ruler of the entire universe took the time to come down here and chit chat with these fanatics.

“Like the Blues Brothers, the Apostle Paul believed he was on a 'mission from God' (Acts 26:19) because of a 'vision' he saw. Before you laugh at this, Michael Abram, the man who stabbed ex-Beatle George Harrison, also 'thought he was mission from God' when he did so ('Orange County Register,' in news section, p. 21). It turns out that this man was a paranoid schizophrenic. Schizophrenics see visions, hear voices and regularly talk to [the] Bible god (or so they think). This would explain the visions and voices mentioned in the Bible.

"Mental illness, and not 'The Lord God Almighty Omnipotent Ruler of The Universe' is behind all of the hallucinations.

“In light of the . . . movie 'A Beautiful Mind' in which Russell Crowe portrayed the schizophrenic Dr. John Nash,[and] along with Andrea Yates in Texas (who drowned her five kids 'because God told me to'), how can any thinking person not consider schizophrenia a reasonable and plausible explanation for the visions and voices affecting many Biblical characters? . . .

“'Newsweek' ran a cover story on schizophrenia ('Newsweek,' 11 March 2002, p. 46+). Read some excerpts from this news story and see if there's a nickel's worth of difference between what happened to the Apostle Paul and someone with rampant untreated schizophrenia:

“'Whether it brings the voices of heaven or of hell, it causes what must surely be the worst affliction a sentient, conscious being can suffer: the inability to tell what is real from what is imaginary. To the person with schizophrenia the voices and visions sound and look as authentic as the announcer on the radio and the furniture in the room.

“'In paranoid schizophrenia, the patient becomes convinced of beliefs at odds with reality hears voices that aren't there or see images that exist nowhere but in his mind. . . .The voices the patients heard were therefore as real to them as the conversations in the hallways they passed through en route to the lab. . . . [Andrea] Yates, who has a deeply religious background [Gee! What a shock! Imagine a religious person hearing voices no one else can!] had satanic hallucinations. . . . The seeming authenticity of the voices means that people with schizophrenia can be barraged by commands that, they are convinced, come from God or Satan. That inference is not illogical; who else can speak to you, unseen, from inside your mind?”

(Mark Smith, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations,” in “Set Free!,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)
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--Religious Delusion--Chapter and Verse--from Christianity's Mainstream, Canonized, Mind-Numbing Narrative

Writes one critic of legendary heroes from the Bible and those who honor their lunacy legacy:

“Modern Christians are betting their life on the assumption that the visions and voices mentioned in the New Testament are real visions and real voices, rather than common paranoid schizophrenia.

“Of course nowadays, if Joe Blow layperson came up to the pastor and told him about visions and voices he'd been experiencing, we'd all think the guy had schizophrenia.

"So what's the difference between Joe Blow of today and the Apostle Paul of the past, other than a distance of time and location? Why accept the visions and voices of a total stranger (the Apostle Paul), yet reject the same from someone closer to home? Is it just the old adage, 'a prophet is not without honor except in his own home'? . . .

“Abraham likely [was a] schizophrenic.

“Moses [was] more than likely schizophrenic.

“Jesus [was] totally lost out of his mind: Schizophrenic.

“Paul, manipulator [and] scoundrel [who] took advantage of ingnorance [was] perhaps schizoid.

“Any and all folks in the Bible claiming visions, of god, angels [and] demons, more than likely [were] schizophrenic.”

(posted by "Godless," in ibid.)


Again--from the article, "Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations"--comes examples of delusion in the name if deity:

"The New Testament is full of visions and voices. Here is just a small sampling:

"Acts 9:10--'And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.'

"Acts 9:12--'And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.'

"Acts 10:3--'He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.'

"Acts 10:17--'Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,'

"Acts 10:19--'While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.'

Acts 11:5--'I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me.'

"Acts 12:9--And he went out, and followed him; and knew not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.'

"Acts 16:9--'And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.'

"Acts 16:10--'And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

"Acts 18:9--Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace.'

"Acts 26:19--'Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision.'

"These people were having visions and voices up the ying yang. Sort of like the patients in a modern mental ward. Sort of like Andrea Yates. Sort of like the thousands upon thousands of paranoid schizophrenics that walk our streets today. Sort of explains things, doesn't it?"

(Smith, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)
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--Religious Delusional Disorder and Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

Smith continues to chart religious delusion, this time not in the Bible, but in the brain:

“Another mental illness that can cause Christianity and visions is temporal lobe epilepsy. Some that suffer from this known medical malady also suffer from bizarre religious hallucinations.

"The BBC reports this on their web site:

“'What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief.'

“'Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates.
   
“'But most convincing of all is the evidence from American neurologist Professor Gregory Holmes. He has studied the life of Ellen G White, who was the spiritual founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Today, the movement is a thriving church with over 12 million members.
   
“'During her life, Ellen had hundreds of dramatic religious visions which were key in the establishment of the church, helping to convince her followers that she was indeed spiritually inspired. But Professor Holmes believes there may be another far more prosaic explanation for her visions.

“'Head Trauma

“'He has discovered that at the age of nine, Ellen suffered a severe blow to her head. As a result, she was semi-conscious for several weeks and so ill she never returned to school. Following the accident, Ellen's personality changed dramatically and she became highly religious and moralistic. And for the first time in her life, she began to have powerful religious visions.
   
“'Professor Holmes is convinced that the blow to Ellen's head caused her to develop temporal lobe epilepsy. "Her whole clinical course to me suggested the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy. This would indicate to me that the spiritual visions she was having would not be genuine, but would be due to the seizures."'”

Observes Smith:

"So, if I understand this right: Before her head injury, Ellen White never heard the 'voice of God.' After she got wacked on the head, THEN she 'heard the voice of God.' Hmmmm . . . . Sounds about right. I've always said that Christianity leads to brain death, so why couldn't  "brain death" also lead to Christianity? . . . Which came first? Who knows? What I do know is that many atheists have long suspected that religion could be the result of  brain disorders--and now it's confirmed. An entire religion--the Seventh Day Adventist--is the direct result of a brain-injured girl."

Smith continues: 
 
"The 'Washington Times,' for 4 March 2003, reported on the same subject of religious belief resulting from mental illness:

"'LONDON--Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Advances in "neurotheology" have prompted some researchers to claim they can induce the kind of holy visions prophets may have experienced--even in those who are not religious believers.

"'Neuroscience professor Michael Persinger of Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, has devised a helmet that uses electromagnetic fields to induce electrical changes in the brain's temporal lobes, which are linked with religious belief.

"'So confident is he that God is all in the mind--or the brain at least--that Mr. Persinger says he can induce mystical feelings in a majority of those willing to don his Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator.

"'So the British Broadcasting Corporation's science series, "Horizon," put his hat to the ultimate test: Could it get arch-skeptic and militant atheist Richard Dawkins to start believing in God by electrically massaging his temporal lobes? Mr. Dawkins, author of "A Devil's Chaplain" and "The Blind Watchmaker," was the ideal candidate for a test of whether science can explain away religion, given his views of religion as a "virus of the mind" and an "infantile regression."

"'The experiment is based on the finding that some sufferers from temporal lobe epilepsy--a neurological disorder caused by chaotic electrical discharges in the temporal lobes of the brain--seem to experience devout hallucinations that bear striking resemblances to the mystical experiences of holy figures such as St. Paul and Moses.

"'This theory received a boost from professor Gregory Holmes, a pediatric neurologist at Dartmouth Medical School, who says one of the principal founders of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, Ellen White, in fact suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy. She was seen as divinely inspired as a result of her religious visions. The new claim that her visions were, in fact, a result of a brain disorder is likely to meet strong resistance from the more than 12 million Seventh-day Adventists worldwide.

"'If strong religious feelings are no less a part of brain function than those linked with hunger and sex, the ultimate test would be to summon up mystical and religious beliefs experimentally.

"'Indeed, it would be in Mr. Dawkins' interests to experience religion for the first time under Mr. Persinger's helmet. After all, this would prove that mystical visions at last could be controlled by science and no longer were just at the mercy of a supernatural entity.

"'While Mr. Dawkins had some strange experiences and tinglings during the experiment, none of them prompted him to take up any new faith. 'It was a great disappointment,' he said.

"'Though I joked about the possibility, I of course never expected to end up believing in anything supernatural. But I did hope to share some of the feelings experienced by religious mystics when contemplating the mysteries of life and the cosmos,' Mr. Dawkins said.

"'Mr. Persinger explained away the failure of this Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator: Before donning the helmet, Mr. Dawkins had scored low on a psychological scale measuring proneness to temporal lobe sensitivity.

"'Studies on identical and fraternal twin pairs raised apart suggest that 50% of our religious interests are influenced by genes. It seems that Mr. Dawkins is genetically predisposed not to believe.'"

(Smith, "Temporal Lobe Epilepsy," at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc 20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)
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--More on Religious Delusonal Disorder and Mormonism

A saintless skeptic of LDS unholy hallucinations tracks the polygamous path of religious delusion in an article subtitled, “Delusional Disorder Often Inbred into Religious Groups":

“Joseph Smith displayed classic symptoms of the grandiose form of delusional disorder. He was successful at attracting other people with delusional disorder and convincing them of his visions. This core band of nascent Mormon leaders (all suffering from delusional disorder) were successful at passing on the delusional gene to their children through widespread polygamy in the early Mormon church years. If your ancestors contain Mormon pioneers, then most likely delusional disorder can be found in your family tree.”

(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)
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--Recognizing Religion: By Their Delusional Flare-Ups, Ye Shall Know Them

From the same article, "Social Consience and Rational Thinking":

“Many facets of religion [are] explained by delusional disorder.

“You may know religious people who are successful and intelligent. You may wonder how a smart person can believe in what appear to you to be obvious delusions? Once you understand that delusion disorder is a real, then you can begin to understand following scenarios:

“--People suffering from religious delusional disorder firmly believe in their delusion. They cannot understand why others don’t believe in the delusion. The converse of this is also true, people who don’t believe in the delusion can’t understand why somebody could so strongly believe in what is obviously delusional.

“--Why some cults don’t perceive themselves as a cult and don’t understand why they’re not accepted by mainstream religions.

“--Why religious followers can easily believe in mystical events, such as the three Nephites helping fix flat tires, communication from God via a the hat and stone, ancient golden plates, white salamanders, and so on.”

“Religious delusional disorder impact[s] . . . families.

“Patients with delusional disorder tend to marry others who suffer from the same delusions. In this way, religious families can be kept together forever as long as every member fully believes in the delusions.

“Problems arise when a partner discovers that they are not delusional. When family members refuse to accept the delusions the result is often a breakup of the family unit. There is often no middle ground for a delusion believer and a non-delusion thinker.

“If you find yourself in this situation you can begin to deal with it by understanding that your family members actually believe in the delusions. The delusion believers may say hurtful things and engage in behavior that harms you emotionally. Keep in mind that it’s not you that they hate; don’t take it personally. It’s the delusion that causes them to be oblivious of their bad behavior. When referenced from the delusional standpoint, any behavior is acceptable.”

(ibid.)
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--Therapy for the Delusional Disorder of Religion

It can be a challenge effectively dealing with those who religiously run from reality:

“Therapy for delusional disorder can be difficult because the patient often vehemently denies that there is a problem and refuses to seek treatment. Direct confrontation seldom works. When a patient is confronted with their delusion, this oftentimes re-enforces the delusional belief. They operate on feelings and delusional beliefs in their minds which they know absolutely are true. No amount of logic or reason is going to persuade them to think otherwise.

“Early in the therapy, it’s vital when dealing with this disorder not to challenge their system of beliefs. This will get you nowhere. Sarcasm is often misinterpreted as an attack. Patients suffering from delusional disorder cannot be reasoned with. Logic does not work. You must realize that it’s not you. The patient has a mental disorder that they don’t recognize and won’t admit to and won’t seek help for.

“If the person refuses to believe they are delusional, then you have limited options. The more you confront them on the delusion, the more entrenched the delusion becomes. If you have to live with the person, try to ignore their delusions, minimize confrontations, redirect the conversations when they bring up the delusions.

“Here are some guidelines for dealing with a delusional disorder family member or friend:

“--1. Seek professional help. Find a psychiatrist or psychologist who has dealt extensively with delusional disorder. Even if the patient refuses to seek professional help, the doctor should be able to give you advice on how to deal with family and friends suffering from delusional disorder.

“--2. Recognize the patient has a true mental illness.

“--3. Recognize the delusions. Be able to identify delusions.

“--4. Redirect the conversation when the patient starts talking about the delusions.

“--5. Find a support group. Learn from the experiences of others who have dealt with family or friends who suffer from delusional disorder.

“--6. Educate yourself. There are numerous online resources available for delusional disorder.

“Keep in mind most people with delusional disorder never seek help, they deny that there is a problem, and get angry when you suggest they have a problem. Direct confrontation seldom works."

(ibid.)
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--Conclusion: Preventing the Delusional Disorder of Religion Among Mormons and Non-Mormons Alike

Take your pick: The Mormon missionary approach or that of the Founding Fathers.

“[First,] advice to religious missionaries.

“People suffering from delusional disorder are your most golden contacts. Specifically seek and convert people who suffer from delusional disorder. People with delusional disorder make the best members; they are often highly functional in society and once they believe in the delusion, they become the bedrock of the religion.

“[Then, there's the] Founding Fathers’ wisdom.

"When the Founding Fathers crafted the United States Constitution, they must have known that at about two-thirds of the U.S. population suffers from delusional disorder. One-third are delusional social conservatives, one third are delusional social liberals and one-third are able to think and rationally make decsions (independents).

“The Founding Fathers therefore wrote into the Constitution the separation of church and state. Also added were careful checks and balances to ensure that the delusional wings never dominate for long periods of time.

“The Founding Fathers were not inspired by God, but rather were inspired by years of abuse suffered from European governments. This experience gave them the wisdom to create a form of government that might have a chance of surviving regardless of the high number of people suffering from either religious delusional disorder or political delusional disorder.”

(ibid.)

*******************


In short, if you don't think religion is an exercise in delusion, some may think you're, well, crazy.



Edited 38 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 03:28PM by steve benson.

Religion is a drug. You know how drugs are....some are good, some are bad, most have side effects. You can take too much of it. You can O.D. You have to be careful about believing everything the marketing literature says.

Drugs alter reality. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, as long as you know it's a drug...and it doesn't mess up the rest of your life. But you can become dependent on it, and if you don't get it under control it can mess you up bad.

Oh...and there's no FDA. You're on your own.

Sure, some religions are worse than others in the effect the drug has on you.

Some religions might be her0in and truly be destructive. They cause the person to live their life in the pursuit of more her0in as an addict.

Some people's religion is more like mara..jua. It 's pretty harmless overall, and seems to give some people a nice buzz now and then.

The point is, would I want to go through life on drugs? Maybe just now and then stone out? I personally would not.

Once the repetition of religion dominates the thoughts in a brain, the person tends to look for everything to fit that world view. This is the result of the effect of the drug called religion. You can see the stoned look in their eyes sometimes. You can hear them mindlessly repeating religious memes.

Maybe life is just easier with a religious buzz for most people. A lot of people don't have a lot going for them. They might not have stellar thinking skills or opportunities for education (the antidote).

(I'm not spelling drugs here or my posts will get filtered.)

Is religion a mental illness?

For some reason, cultural consensus appears to decide this. What's the difference between these two things:

You talk to Jesus before you go to sleep (popular, accepted by consensus to not be "crazy.")

Or

You talk to invisible flying alligators under your bed (hello, welcome to your room in the asylum).

Seriously, is there any difference? If you think there is, I'd like to see the proof, other than the fact that one is accepted and one is not.

Seriously, is there any difference? If you think there is, I'd like to see the proof, other than the fact that one is accepted and one is not.

one is accepted and one is not.

at least for now it is NOT delusional at least under current clinical guidelines,.. perhaps in a thousand years(pulled that out of my butt) it will be considered delusional...
and you may consider relgion to be nonsense...and i would agree.... but delusional is such a strong word and denotes a mental illness... how would you treat this "illness"??

Couldn't agree with you more. Religion in centuries past may have made sense. In today's world with so much scientific evidence to the contrary, a person must embrace delusions to still accept.

I like it.

Br. Benson, how do you categorize the ordinary Mormon experience (a "normal" raised in the Morridor from birth life view) from say someone whose cousin (mine) who believed that he was the "one mighty and strong" and went to the SLC temple with his trumpet in hand (helluva trumpet player) to blow the horn and usher in the 2nd coming? (And then gets thrown in the secret church paddy wagon by ninja guards dressed in white suits who lie in wait in the trees unnoticed?) I mean get arrested for trespassing? Are there varying degrees of delusion as there once were varying degrees of glory?

All the best!

Additionally (more succinctly) what defines the perfect non delusional state? I still play Mega Millions and never forget to check my tickets expecting them to be the same numbers as drawn.

Other than that, it's just great. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 03:06PM by steve benson.

On NPR right now, they're talking about bringing a chicken who plays TIC-TAC-TOE into court to demonstrate that (ready ?)
a psychiatrist who testified that a prisoner who could play tic-tac-toe was 'competent enough to be executed'... wasn't being logical, reasonable, or pertinent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 03:29PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Good work, Steve. Your research is appreciated here.

robertb, can you make an argument to support your point of view that is not an appeal to authority?

lulu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> robertb, can you make an argument to support your
> point of view that is not an appeal to authority?

I see it as more a case of robertb focusing on the "accepted" definition of 'delusion' and the DSM-IV gets to define it as it is considered to be a term relating to mental illness. I can relate to that as it is part of my field, as it is robertb's. In Psychiatry, definitions and criteria rule, as every patient is assigned a diagnosis according to their symptom profile and what it indicates.

Of course, with language there is always the aspect of general usage. We say that someone is "delusional" without necessarily meaning it literally. "You're delusional if you think you're getting a Porsche for Christmas". We wouldn't call the white coat brigade for that "delusional" person. If, however, they thought they were driving a Porsche when in reality it was a go-cart, we might suggest a check-up.

The DSM-IV is a tool used in robertb's type of work. That's why it makes a lot of sense to me that he refers to it in this discussion of terminology and meanings. I don't see him using it as an appeal to authority. To me, it's valid to bring it into the discussion in that regard.

consider this, the DSM is undergoing revision.

What is the best argument that the Delusional Disorder definition should not be changed at all?

Oh, yes, lulu. You just reminded me that I wanted to mention changes. One huge example is the changing definition/classification of homosexuality, that used to be included in the DSM as a disorder.

Good point, lulu. It is all subject to change. This is why it's good not to regard any human-made model as the eternal be-all, end-all. Too, as medicine/science grows in knowledge and experience changes to our current understanding and treatment are inevitable.

I think it'll take a while though before anyone wants to formally define religious belief as a mental illness. It is definitely an interesting idea though.

I do agree that some manifestations of religious belief cross the line in a major way. Once being inadvertently locked in a trailer with a group of charismatic nuns who suddenly devolved into a prolonged frenzy of holy rollering illustrated for me the high value of retaining a measure of sanity along with one's religious beliefs. I am allergic to frenzy. I prefer my belief in irrational things to be balanced by a large degree of rationality in thought, practice and behaviour.

It is true that behaviour that is displayed by some religious folk on the more extreme end of the scale would be considered certifiable absent the religious element.


Edited to add a response to your question:

"What is the best argument that the Delusional Disorder definition should not be changed at all?"

I am not against changing definitions in the light of incoming information, ongoing discussion and sane consideration. Obviously, objectivity would be crucial (no sides in the debate being strongly biased in any one direction).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 05:27PM by Nightingale.

It is true that behaviour that is displayed by some religious folk on the more extreme end of the scale would be considered certifiable absent the religious element.

extremist fanatical anything aint good!
just sayin! :)

I prefer my belief in irrational things to be balanced by a large degree of rationality in thought, practice and behaviour.
:)

I was ever so slightly joking when I said that. I know that other Christians won't like me saying "belief in irrational things" but I remember way back when I first came here, my first experience of interacting seriously with atheists, and I asked a question to the effect "Who said religion is rational?". I meant that there is my everyday life, in nursing (a science) governed by scientific knowledge and procedures. Then there's church. Rarely the twain shall meet. :)

I hope you don't make the same argument about authority with your medical doctor next time you ill, lulu. You don't want the professional treating you to have diagnostic and treatment standards? Seems to me you don't want to be held to standard because the standard show those of you on this are simply spreading propoganda.

And yes, the DSM-V will have changes. Delusional Disorder is not one of them. It will stay the same.

It is telling that Steve, you and others need so much for religious people to be deluded and mentally ill in spite of the evidence they are not. Why is that?

What's your best argument that the DSM is correct.

Are you saying that Voodoo is just delusion?

Damn.

There goes my doll collection.

"Generally speaking, a devout life in Mormonism is a war on intellectual curiosity, personal freedom of choice, individual uniqueness, rationality, tolerance & historical honesty-"

Brings back all the years "at war" with myself. Glad to be out.

Thanks, Steve.

Social Conscience & Rational Thinking

you forgot this part SB!!
Causes
The exact cause is unknown. It is believed that genetic, biochemical and environmental factors play a significant role in the development of delusional disorder (4).

so does the religion CAUSE the disorder?
it seems to me that this article nor any which you cited says that.

Therapy for Delusional Disorder
Therapy for delusional disorder can be difficult because the patient often vehemently denies that there is a problem and refuses to seek treatment. Direct confrontation seldom works. When a patient is confronted with their delusion, this oftentimes re-enforces the delusional belief. They operate on feelings and delusional beliefs in their minds which they know absolutely are true. No amount of logic or reason is going to persuade them to think otherwise.

Early in the therapy, it’s vital when dealing with this disorder not to challenge their system of beliefs. This will get you nowhere. Sarcasm is often misinterpreted as an attack. Patients suffering from delusional disorder cannot be reasoned with. Logic does not work. You must realize that it’s not you. The patient has a mental disorder that they don’t recognize and won’t admit to and won’t seek help for.

If the person refuses to believe they are delusional, then you have limited options. The more you confront them on the delusion, the more entrenched the delusion becomes. If you have to live with the person, try to ignore their delusions, minimize confrontations, redirect the conversations when they bring up the delusions.

Here are some guidelines for dealing with a delusional disorder family member or friend:
1. Seek professional help. Find a psychiatrist or psychologist who has dealt extensively with delusional disorder. Even if the patient refuses to seek professional help, the doctor should be able to give you advice on how to deal with family and friends suffering from delusional disorder.
2. Recognize the patient has a true mental illness.
3. Recognize the delusions. Be able to identify delusions.
4. Redirect the conversation when the patient starts talking about the delusions.
5. Find a support group. Learn from the experiences of others who have dealt with family or friends who suffer from delusional disorder.
6. Educate yourself. There are numerous online resources available for delusional disorder.

Keep in mind most people with delusional disorder never seek help, they deny that there is a problem, and get angry when you suggest they have a problem. Direct confrontation seldom works.

Prevention
Little work has been done thus far regarding prevention of the disorder. Effective means of prevention have not been identified

this seems to me to be referring to people that need mental therapy and care...see#2. in the above citation...as in extreme cases...as is most of what you posted.... your references dont seem to indict ALL religious peoples.... as you seem to infer with the title of this post.
are you positing that ALL religious people need therapy?
i would say that some do as the evidence suggests...but ALL??
it further seems to me that you deal in absolutisms...something that reputable Principal Investigators dont do.
just sayin!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 06:42PM by bignevermo.

Or does the disorder CAUSE the religion?

Maybe because religion played a contributing role in his whackiness.

Just sayin.' :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 07:37PM by steve benson.

Or does "the disorder CAUSE the religion?"

they do say this though:


Causes
The exact cause is unknown. It is believed that genetic, biochemical and environmental factors play a significant role in the development of delusional disorder (4).

oops...no religion there... try again! :)
dont forget these are your sources SB...also another little reminder may be in order...
i aint religious!!
just sayin! :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 07:44PM by bignevermo.

Try looking at the entire piece in context.

As you did in an earlier thread, you tend to get hung up on one item while failing to see the bigger picture.

Plus, you really don't do much of your own research.

For your thematic review of what I have been saying over the last few threads:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,353070,353070#msg-353070



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 08:16PM by steve benson.

I am looking at the "entire piece in context" Steve...
you actually left out a key part of the article Steve..."the Cause"...which is disingenuous.
NONE of your sources make the claims you are...that ALL religious people have a dilusional disorder.
NONE of your sources say that...only YOU do... thats my point.
and Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.
again it says:

"The exact cause is unknown"

sorry if you dont like me pointing out things in your posts that your citations and the PI's dont actually say.(hey learned that here at RFM).. :).. and BTW you may have read and copy and pasted(which is what i did) but you did not do the research that you cite! so to say "do my own research" you are being disingenuous at best and are using a red herring...
unlike the PI's you make claims that just are not there...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 08:58PM by bignevermo.

It appears you and I weren't looking at the same post.

I think you night need to pay a bit more attention to what you read. Let's take it step-by-step in demonstrating why.
_____


**Religion as an Environmental Factor in Mental Disorder

You categorically claimed:

“Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.”

Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:

(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and

(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor.
_____


**Not All Sources I Cited Said That All Religious People Suffer from Religion Delusion

Again, you categorically claimed:

“NONE of your sources make the claims you are...that ALL religious people have a dilusional disorder. NONE of your sources say that...only YOU do... thats my point . . . .”

In fact, quotations I provided from those sources show that they didn't While the theme of my post was that religious believers are certainly in many cases cases delusionally disordered, not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.

For instance, the cited “Washington Times” article referenced a BBC report on the influence that the neurological wiring of the human brain plays in producing religious-like sensations. The article said nothing about religious delusional disorders hampering those in the study group; rather, it reported on organic brain function that naturally produces “strong religious,” “mystical” or “holy vision” sensations--in believers and non-believers alike--and which can be misinterpreted by believers and non-believers alike as something other than what they are.

Here's the relevant portion of that article in that regard:

"Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Advances in “neurotheology” have prompted some researchers to claim they can induce the kind of holy visions prophets may have experienced--even in those who are not religious believers.”

(as quoted by Mark Smith, “Temporal Lobe Epilepsy,” in “Set Free!,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations; the
same news article is also available from the U.K. “Telegraph,” at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3306312/Holy-visions-elude-scientists.html)


Parenthetically, that above news article did mention the case of Seventh-day Adventists founder Ellen White's sensational religious feelings, but reported that her delusions in that regard were a result of temporal lobe epilepsy, which the article noted supported the scientific finding that the temporal lobes are the origination point in the brain for so-called “religious” experiences.

There were other sources, however, which I referenced and quoted in which connections were made, to one degree or another, between religious indoctrination and religion delusional disorder.
_____


**Delusionary Cult Efforts to Rein In the Non-Deluded

I quoted from a source suggesting that some people not suffering from pre-existing religious delusion disorder can nonetheless be influenced toward development of such a mental malady through efforts by religious groups (in this case, cults) to snare and retain them.

Note was made, for instance, of family break-ups that occur when resistant family members refuse, despite pressure from other family members, to accept religious delusions as being anything but real, having concluded that they themselves are not delusional:

“Problems arise when a partner discovers that they are not delusional. When family members refuse to accept the delusions the result is often a breakup of the family unit. There is often no middle ground for a delusion believer and a non-delusion thinker.”

In further regard to religious cults, I quoted from that same source which pointed out who religious cults can be involved in the perpetration of religious mental disorders among their followers, with the cults denying, of course, that they are acting like a cult:

“ . . . [S]ome cults don’t perceive themselves as a cult and don’t understand why they’re not accepted by mainstream religions.”

(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)at.
_____


**Delusion-Driven Religious/Cultural Group Efforts at Creating Delusion

I also cited a source which suggested religious delusions can be created within the circles of “religious and cultural groups” (meaning in churches and other institutions) when, through exertion of cultural and religious influence, the mental state of individuals can give way to the eventual development of religious-rooted mind disorders that, in any other context, would be considered to be a form of mental illness:

“Given these descriptors of religious delusion, the question is then asked: 'Why do religions and cultural groups get the exemption? A mental disorder is only a disorder in particular contexts?'”

(Doug Reardon, “Religious and Cultural Exemptions to Delusional Disorder,” January 2011, in “Think Atheist,” at: http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/religious-and-cultural)


In this regard, poster “dagny” seemed to have grasped from the OP what you appear to have missed; namely, that modern-day religious groups do, in fact, popularize mental illness-producing beliefs among otherwise normal-minded members, which then can lead to the development of religious delusion disorder.

As “dagny” observed:

“Is religion a mental illness? For some reason, cultural consensus appears to decide this. What's the difference between these two things: You talk to Jesus before you go to sleep (popular, accepted by consensus to not be 'crazy.') Or--You talk to invisible flying alligators under your bed (hello, welcome to your room in the asylum). Seriously, is there any difference? If you think there is, I'd like to see the proof, other than the fact that one is accepted and one is not.”

(“That's the way I've come to view it too, RAG,” posted by: “dagny,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, “ 3 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,356952#msg-356952)


Indeed, underscoring “dagny's” observation is one of the links in my OP, headlined, in part: “. . . God Myths Have Survived Because Smart People Are Very Good at Rationalizing Things That They Came to Believe for Non-Smart Reasons,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” 11 July 2011, at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/


On cultural pressure to foster religious delusion, I also cited a source referencing a deluded “religious subculture” in Haiti, where mentally-disordered religion is practiced by that culture in mentally dysfunctional ways which results in the eventual inculcation in group members of strange beliefs and practices. (Please note that there was no mention made of religious delusion in that particular excerpt afflicting all religious members of Haiti society):

“The cultural relativity of 'delusions'--most evident where the beliefs shown are typical of the person's subculture or religion yet would be viewed as strange or delusional by the dominant culture--can force complex choices to be made in diagnosis and treatment.

“An example could be that of a Haitian immigrant to the United States who believed in voodoo. If that person became aggressive toward neighbors issuing curses or hexes--believing that death is imminent at the hands of those neighbors--a question arises. The belief is typical of the individual's subculture, so the issue is whether it should be diagnosed or treated. If it were to be treated, whether the remedy should come through Western medicine or be conducted through voodoo shamanistic treatment is the problem to be solved."

(“Delusional Disorder,” in “Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders,” at: http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#ixzz1fSoBP5Xb)


As to religious and other societal cultures, I quoted from a source that makes note of the influence of both of those pressure groups on the mindset of individuals within those cultures to accept certain beliefs as normal.

". . . [P]ersonal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures."

(Shivani Chopra, MD; Raheel A. Khan, DO; James A. Bourgeois, OD, MD, MPA; and Donald M, Hilty, MD, "Delusional Disorder," updated 10 March 2011, in "Medscape Reference: Drugs, Diseases and Procedures," at: http://reference.medscape.com/)
_____


**I Didn't Cite the Cause of Religious Delusion? I'm Afraid You Must be Deluded

You asserted that I “actually left out a key part of the article Steve...'the Cause... "...which is disingenuous.”

What you actually did in your inattentive claim was to leave in the decidedly inaccurate impression that I did not address the causation issue at all--which was disingenuous on your part.

Please recall that I asked you to review the entire post (which included the links to all the cited sources). Had you read carefully (which you seem to have not), you would have noticed that, in fact, I quoted from several sources/articles relative to the cause(s) of religious delusion disorder:

“Traditionally, religious delusion, with or without hallucinations, has been associated with schizophrenia, affective psychoses, complex partial seizure disorder and drug-induced psychoses. Recent reports have associated religious delusion with epileptic postictal psychosis, psychoses characterized by self-inflicted injuries, psychoses induced by general medical illnesses and mystical religious fervor.”

(The authors responsible for this above assessment, however, note--as I quoted--that "[l]ittle is known about the clinical features associated with religious delusion and how religious delusion may differ across various diagnostic groups.. . . Although religious delusion has regularly been reported throughout the history of neuropsychiatry, surprisingly, there is no systematic study of religious delusion in unselected populations of psychiatric patients").

(M. Raja, A. Azzoni and L. Lubich, “Religious Delusion: An Observational Study of Religious Delusion in a Population of 313 Acute Psychiatric In-Patients,” in “Schwetzer Archive for Neurology and Psychiatry," 151, January 2000, p. 22, at: http://www.sanp.ch/pdf/2000/2000-01/2000-01-058.PDF)


Below are some more quotes that I provided on religious delusion causation:

"Not all of these cases are based on religious delusions but scientists . . . have already proven there is a pathological connection between schizophrenia and religious delusion. Treatment is iffy at best with these folks because when they take their medication, they realize they aren't as 'religious' as they were off their medication so their treatment often fails. Then there are those who comply with their treatment plan and realize that their obsessive-compulsive religious thoughts and behaviors were a result of their psychiatric diagnosis. . . .

"Unfortunately, many don't get help because of their pre-conceived religious perception. Then the problem exacerbates and often their peers continue to egg them on when they need serious psychiatric help. The line has to be drawn at some point where successful intervention can be made. So often with religious folk, that line gets extended beyond a normal mental state where treatment can be perceived as satanic."

"[The people studied] had already been diagnosed as schizophrenic and psychotic with religious delusions . . . [with] study [being] done specifically on the religiously deluded. There have been a minimum of 78 peer-reviewed research studies published on religious delusion that were cited . . . so the case is not an isolated one."

(“Religious Delusions Are a Common Symptom of Schizophrenia,” posted “Medicine*Woman,” in “Sciforums.com,” at: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51361&page=3):


“ . . . [S]chizophrenia is a better and simpler explanation for all the people--past and present--who have claimed that [the] Bible god spoke to them. . . .


“'In paranoid schizophrenia, the patient becomes convinced of beliefs at odds with reality hears voices that aren't there or see images that exist nowhere but in his mind. . . .The voices the patients heard were therefore as real to them as the conversations in the hallways they passed through en route to the lab. . . . The seeming authenticity of the voices means that people with schizophrenia can be barraged by commands that, they are convinced, come from God or Satan. That inference is not illogical; who else can speak to you, unseen, from inside your mind?”

(Mark Smith, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations,” in “Set Free!,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)


“Joseph Smith displayed classic symptoms of the grandiose form of delusional disorder. He was successful at attracting other people with delusional disorder and convincing them of his visions. This core band of nascent Mormon leaders (all suffering from delusional disorder) were successful at passing on the delusional gene to their children through widespread polygamy in the early Mormon church years.”

(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)
_____


**A Summary of My Post

Based on the sources I cited and examples I presented in the OP, religious delusions can occur as a result of:

--pre-exisiting individual mental dysfunction;

--external religious/cultural influence brought to bear on individuals who are not necessarily presently suffering from pre-set psychosis;

--the fostering by religious groups of delusional beliefs that encourage their members to interpret naturally-produced “mystical” experiences within their brains as being actual “holy vision” or “prophetic” communications from God when, in fact, they are the result of neurological realities organically produced within both healthy or injured brains; and

--religious indoctrination that includes standard teaching of visionary tales from canonized Christian scripture that are presented as actual events, which teaching can have a decidedly negative effect on people who conclude that they are entitled to the same kind of alleged visionary contacts with God.
_____


**You, Me and the Research Thing

Finally, you accused me of not doing my own research with this “btw” claim of yours:

“ . . . [Y]ou may have read and copy and pasted (which is what I did) but you did not do the research that you cite! so to say 'do my own research you are being disingenuous at best and are using a red herring.”

When I said I did my own research, it was certainly clear enough as to what I meant; namely, that I source-searched for published studies, papers, articles and other findings which I then cited in the OP. My statement that I had done my own research in that regard is hardly misleading within that context, as evidenced by the fact that the sources I came across through my own research efforts I then quoted, sourced and linked.

In addition, in terms of personal research, I have read in its entirety, then dissected section by section, a topic-related review of clinical research on this subject (one which, by the way, I have already linked to you in this current thread). It was a published paper recommended to me by another poster, as I noted here:

(“Koenig the Seminarian: A Barnstorming Believer Who Wants to Be Taken Scientifically Seriously in His Pitch for the Mental Health Benefits of Supernaturalism,” posted by Steve Benson,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 29 November 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,353070,353070#msg-353070)


Moreover, in related threads on this topic, I have quoted at length from my personal reading of resource material in my own library--most recently from the works of Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer on the generation of in-brain “religious” experiences, as noted here:

(“How the Realities of Science Trump the Myths of Religion in Providing Non-Deluded Hope for a Better World,” posted by Steve Benson, on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 3 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357028)


But since you have chosen to make an issue of research in your reply, please point me to examples of your own multiple-source-searching research efforts on these topics, as demonstrated in this thread and in past threads. I think I may have missed them. :)

If you can't produce them, that's OK.

I'll cut you a little break: What books have you read on the subject lately? :)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 07:55AM by steve benson.

i was cut off...the message said i was trying to hack into the account.... the problem with your original post is:
you are using extremes to make your point... and when i said you were being disingenuous it was because you will copy and paste most of the article but you left out:

Causes
The exact cause is unknown. It is believed that genetic, biochemical and environmental factors play a significant role in the development of delusional disorder (4).
why is that?

That is the problem i have....you make an extraordinary claim that religion is the cause of mental illness

and in that article it did not say that religion was a factor.... in fact there are environmental factors that can involve many things that dont have to do with religion.
yes it could be a factor and in some case i am sure it is.
here is more on the subject:

Environmental Connections: A Deeper Look into Mental Illness
ArticleComments: 0
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Citation: Schmidt CW 2007. Environmental Connections: A Deeper Look into Mental Illness. Environ Health Perspect 115:A404-A410. http://dx.doi.org/10.1289/ehp.115-a404

Online: 1 August 2007

Mental illnesses produce some of the most challenging health problems faced by society, accounting for vast numbers of hospitalizations, disabilities resulting in billions in lost productivity, and sharply elevated risks for suicide. Scientists have long known that these potentially devastating conditions arise from combinations of genes and environmental factors. Genetic research has produced intriguing biological insights into mental illness, showing that particular gene variations predispose some individuals to conditions such as depression and schizophrenia.

Now, thanks to a growing union of epidemiology and molecular biology, the role of the environment in the etiology of mental illness has become more clear. Indeed, E. Fuller Torrey, president of the Treatment Advocacy Center, a nonprofit organization that promotes treatment advances in psychiatry, suggests that mental illnesses increasingly fall into the realm of environmental health. And from that platform, he says, new treatment advances could soon emerge.

“Some of the greatest advancements in twentieth-century medicine were achieved by identifying and preventing infectious diseases through vaccination, improved sanitary measures, improved nutrition, and diminished hazards of environmental contaminants,” adds Alan Brown, an associate professor of clinical psychiatry and epidemiology at Columbia University Medical Center. “If environmental risk factors for [mental illness] can be validated and confirmed, there is every reason to expect they will point to preventive measures that lower their risks and morbidity.”

Everything But the Gene Top
Scientists define “environment” in the realm of mental illness broadly, some going so far as to suggest it encompasses everything that isn’t an inherited gene. That’s a departure from traditional thinking in environmental health, however, which has historically viewed environmental threats in the context of infectious agents, pollutants, and other exogenous factors that influence the individual’s physical surroundings. Environmental threats to mental health include these traditional parameters—along with pharmaceutical and illicit drugs, injuries, and nutritional deficiencies—but also consist of psychosocial conditions that relate to the individual’s perceptions of the social and physical world.

Any number of circumstances—for instance, sexual abuse, falling victim to crime, or the breakup of a relationship—can produce psychosocial stress. But experts assume each of these circumstances triggers more primal reactions, such as feelings of loss or danger, which serve to push victims toward a particular mental state. “Feelings of pure loss might lead to depressive disorders, while feelings of pure danger might lead to anxiety disorders,” explains Ronald Kessler, a professor of health care policy at Harvard Medical School. “And feelings of loss and danger might lead to both simultaneously.” Either alone or in combination, psychosocial and physiological stressors can interact with genetic vulnerability to alter brain chemistry and thus alter the individual’s mental health.

Several lines of evidence point to an environmental role in psychiatric disease. Among identical twins, if one becomes schizophrenic, the risk to the other is on average less than 50%, suggesting that environmental influences must somehow be involved. Similar findings have been observed with depression and other mental disorders.

Scientists have traditionally been challenged in their efforts to link mental illness with underlying causes, in part because the diseases are so amorphous, says Ezra Susser, a psychiatrist and department chair in epidemiology at the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health. Unlike cancer or heart disease, which have clearly visible end points, mental disorders yield vague behaviors that vary widely among individuals. “They’re defined mainly by thoughts, behaviors, and feelings,” Susser says. “We don’t have biological measures on which to rest our diagnoses.”

Researchers and clinicians base psychiatric diagnoses on behavioral symptoms described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, a handbook published by the American Psychiatric Association in 1994. However, many of the handbook’s 297 listed conditions share similar features, and patients typically show up with co-morbidities that obscure links to underlying risk factors. Schizophrenia, for example, is frequently accompanied by depression. Without being able to link exposures and outcomes more clearly, scientists have heretofore been unable to determine how environmental factors trigger psychiatric conditions, or why.

“If environmental risk factors for [mental illness] can be validated and confirmed, there is every reason to expect they will point to preventive measures that lower their risks and morbidity.”

–Alan Brown, Columbia University Medical Center

A Glimpse of Biology Top
But now that’s starting to change. In a seminal study published 2 August 2002 in Science, Avshalom Caspi and Terrie Moffitt, who hold joint appointments as psychology professors at King’s College London and the University of Wisconsin–Madison, presented the first evidence linking genotype to mental illness through an environmental pathway. In so doing, they laid the foundations for more advanced studies of the environment’s role in mental illness. Specifically, Caspi and Moffitt found that maltreatment could induce antisocial personality disorder in children with a variant MAOA gene, which codes an enzyme that metabolizes neurotransmitters in the brain. That finding not only showed that genotype could influence an environmental risk factor’s capacity to induce mental illness, but also suggested that by curbing maltreatment, it might be possible to intervene in biological pathways that predispose some children to violence and crime.

Scientists define “environment” in the realm of mental illness broadly, some going so far as to suggest it encompasses everything that isn’t an inherited gene.

The next year, an article in the 18 July 2003 issue of Science showed that young people who go through emotionally stressful situations, such as losing a job or a romantic partner, are more prone to major depression if they inherit a variant form of the serotonin transporter gene, which participates in brain cell communication. Ironically, millions of people worldwide were already being treated for depression, anxiety, and other mood disorders with drugs that act on serotonin metabolism in a way that scientists still did not fully understand. Caspi and Moffitt’s discovery offered clues to that process that are still being investigated today. What they didn’t show, however, was how brain function might change in response to the gene variant.

That piece of the puzzle came from Daniel Weinberger, a branch chief at the National Institute of Mental Health, who used functional magnetic resonance imaging to demonstrate that individuals with the gene variant also demonstrated hyper-activity in the amygdala, a part of the brain that processes fear. Weinberger hypothesized that people with the variant are more likely to view the world as menacing. Therefore, he reasoned, the routine stresses of daily life could be amplified to the point of inducing depression.

Douglas Levinson, a professor of psychiatry at the Stanford University School of Medicine, describes the evolving literature on the variant serotonin transporter gene and its role in depression as “the first really interesting story to emerge from gene–environment research on mental illness.” But he adds that it’s still too early to know if the findings will hold up to further scrutiny. On the other hand, he says, “It could be that these interactions are more complex than our current knowledge allows us to imagine.”

Indeed, many other genes beyond the serotonin transporter have also been implicated in depression. For instance, in the February 2007 issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry, Levinson reported on a cluster of genes located on chromosome 15q that he suspects may link to depression by pathways that have nothing to do with serotonin. In the final analysis, he says, external agents probably interact with a variety of genes, each contributing a fraction to the overall risk. Moreover, some environmental exposures might be strong enough to trigger mental illness regardless of the individual’s genetic makeup.

Victor Carrion, an associate professor of psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine, suspects that is probably true of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a debilitating illness that follows terrifying experiences. “With most types of trauma, we see that thirty to fifty percent of individuals develop PTSD . . . and that suggests that genetic vulnerability plays a role,” he acknowledges. “But as the trauma become more severe—for instance, from kidnapping, torture, or sexual abuse—the prevalence rate can rise to nearly a hundred percent. So, that indicates environmental factors can double the prevalence, depending on severity [of the trauma].”

Carrion suggests in the March 2007 issue of Pediatrics that PTSD might be linked to excessive brain concentrations of cortisol, a steroid hormone. Released naturally during stress, cortisol at levels such as those produced during high stress kills neurons, including those in the hippocampus, a structure in the brain that participates in memory and emotion. Among children who have PTSD, the hippocampus is reduced in size, possibly because of cortisol-induced cell death, Carrion proposes. And that, he adds, offers clues to the biology of PTSD, which sensitizes the brain to produce life-like flashbacks of a traumatic event.

Case in Point: Schizophrenia Top
Of all the environmental contributions to mental illness, few are as mysterious as those in schizophrenia, which produces hallucinations, delusions, and paranoia, and accounts for nearly half the suicides among U.S. adolescents and young adults. Genetic factors drive much of the risk; those with schizophrenic relatives in their immediate family face a roughly tenfold greater likelihood of developing the disorder themselves.

But environmental threats also play a role. Some of the most persuasive data linking schizophrenia to environmental factors involve circumstances at birth. Urban birth, for instance, was shown to be linked to schizophrenia as far back as the 1930s by Robert E. Lee Faris and H. Warren Dunham, in classic studies that found high rates of the disease among children born in inner-city Chicago. Those same findings have since been replicated numerous times in several countries, such that researchers now routinely assume that urban birth raises the baseline risk of schizophrenia by roughly 50%. Other environmental risk factors vary widely, and include being born in winter and spring, maternal psychological stress during pregnancy, and obstetric complications.

What at least some of these factors might share in common, Brown suggests, are heightened exposures to infectious agents, which may be more common in inner cities or during colder months when the population is more likely to be sick. Studies have linked schizophrenia and prenatal exposure to a number of microbial infections, including those caused by rubella, toxoplasmosis, and influenza. Research led by Brown and Susser, described in the August 2004 issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry, shows that exposure to influenza in utero can raise the risk of schizophrenia. Brown has also demonstrated that inflammatory cytokines—such as interleukin 8, which is expressed at higher levels in the serum of mothers whose children later became schizophrenic—might somehow be involved. “We are presently examining how infection is related to cytokine disturbances in schizophrenia,” he says.

Susser, meanwhile, is also focusing his efforts on another compelling possibility—that schizophrenia can be triggered during pregnancy by maternal starvation. Research published in the 2 August 2006 issue of JAMA centered on two historical cohorts: a World War II–era famine in the western Netherlands caused by a Nazi blockade, and the Chinese famine that occurred from 1959 to 1961, precipitated by Mao Zedong’s disastrous Great Leap Forward policy. Evidence from both cohorts suggests that maternal famine can double the risk of schizophrenia among offspring.

“It could be that these [gene–environment] interactions are more complex than our current knowledge allows us to imagine.”

–Douglas Levinson, Stanford University School of Medicine

Together with Mary-Claire King, a professor in the departments of Genome Sciences and Medicine at the University of Washington, Susser is now investigating whether nutritional deficiencies might produce de novo mutations or epigenetic effects in genes required for normal brain development. One possibility is that folate deprivation such as occurs during famine might serve to inhibit DNA repair or alter DNA methylation. Susser and King have joined David St. Clair of Aberdeen University and Lin He of Jiaotong University to start a new study in China to explore this and other possible mechanisms.

Unlike cancer or heart disease, which have clearly visible end points, mental disorders yield vague behaviors that vary widely among individuals.

One potential environmental contributor has largely been ruled out as a cause of schizophrenia. Scientists used to think dysfunctional families were key risk factors, in part because they could expose children to “double-bind” interactions, such as a mother expressing love for her child verbally while she turns away in disgust. The emphasis on family dysfunction has since declined, however. More recent evidence, says Preben Bo Mortensen, a psychiatric epidemiologist at the Institute for Basic Psychiatric Research at Århus University Hospital, suggests that while dysfunctional families exacerbate the disease, they probably don’t trigger it.

Prevention Opportunities Top
Susser suggests that recent findings regarding schizophrenia raise hope for its prevention, which has so far proven elusive. “That’s the big dream,” he says. “If we can show that supplementing with folate reduces risks, that would have real public health implications. The same applies if we can prevent the disease by limiting exposure to certain [toxicants] or infections. There’s lots of excitement about the possibilities, if we can specify how these pathways work.”

But environmental interventions aren’t beneficial just at the primary level. Scientists have also shown that secondary interventions, which remove environmental threats during early stages of mental illness, can sometimes reverse the course of a given disorder.

William McFarlane, a psychiatrist and researcher at Maine Medical Center, works with young people who show early warning signs for psychosis, including mild hallucinations and difficulty concentrating. Untreated, these individuals can progress to full-blown schizophrenia, characterized by extreme delusions and paranoia. But with a regimen of intense individual and family counseling and a range of supports at school and at work, combined with low doses of antipsychotic drugs, McFarlane’s patients learn how to identify and manage the stress triggers that heighten their mental instability. Over time, McFarlane says, they may outgrow their vulnerability to the disease, and go on to lead normal lives.

Unpublished preliminary data show that McFarlane’s approach can cut schizophrenia risk among vulnerable patients by half. In April 2007, he was awarded $12.4 million by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation to expand his schizophrenia prevention program—ongoing in Portland, Maine, since 2000—to four additional cities nationwide.

Similarly, Shelley E. Taylor, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles, has found that a positive, low-stress family environment lowers the risk of depression among children who harbor the variant serotonin transporter gene. More specifically, her research in the 1 October 2006 issue of Biological Psychiatry shows the variant’s effects in children could be amplified by cold, unsupportive family environments marked by conflict and anger, whereas warm, nurturing families were shown to counteract the variant gene.

Interestingly, environment-based interventions in mental illness could produce health benefits extending far beyond psychiatry. Studies consistently show that mental disorders elevate risks for a host of other health problems. Depression, for instance, increases health risks for heart failure patients, possibly by promoting the development of blood vessel plaques, according to research in the February 2007 Archives of General Psychiatry by Jesse Stewart, an assistant professor of psychology at Indiana University–Purdue University Indianapolis. Another recent study linked excessive anger and hostility in children—evident among those with antisocial personality disorders—to compromised lung function. That study, led by Benita Jackson of Smith College , appeared in the May 2007 issue of Health Psychology.

Trends Unknown Top
With environmental research on mental health advancing, one key question remains unanswered: Are psychiatric disorders on the rise? Experts admit they don’t know. Kessler says cross-national trends are almost impossible to discern because of the varied ways mental health data are collected in different countries. “The data show almost no one in Nigeria is mentally ill, but no one in Nigeria talks about mental illness, so what are we to make of that information?” he asks. “Same in Japan—you find very low recorded rates of mental illness, but very high rates of suicide. So, clearly there’s something going on there that’s not making its way into the data.”

Trends in the United States have been hard to pick up because attitudes about mental illness have changed over time. Kessler is currently investigating differences in how Americans have responded to mood surveys from the 1950s onward. He anticipates a big increase in depression. The WHO concurs, predicting that by 2020, depression will be the second greatest contributor to the global burden of diseease (as measured by disability-adjusted life years) for all ages and both sexes. Kessler adds that any growth rate observed could merely reflect that people are more willing to talk about their feelings now than in times past, when such conditions carried a heavy stigma.

Torrey says prevalence data on mental illnesses are almost nonexistent in the United States. The most visible signs of a possible rise in mental health problems, he says, can be found among the homeless (of which nearly one-third are mentally ill) and in the nation’s jails and prisons (where up to half the inmates have psychiatric disorders), according to 2007 figures from the Federal Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The best prevalence data, Torrey says, come from Scandinavia, where researchers keep detailed registries of psychiatric admissions linked to national databases that track personal information relating to citizens. One of the most comprehensive systems of this kind exists in Denmark. But even there, the data don’t show any definitive trends, Mortensen says. “Looking at schizophrenia, for instance, we see what looks like a decrease until the early nineties, then an increase, and then a stabilization. But we think that most of those changes are related to diagnostic artifacts.” That is, the increase in diagnoses may reflect changes in diagnostic criteria, rather than changes in actual incidence.

In the end, one of the most positive developments to come from research into the biology of mental illness is a reduction in stigma. Throughout history, says Levinson, mentally ill patients have been shunted to the sidelines in medicine, the most severely among them institutionalized, while others struggle to survive in society. And because their ailments haven’t been linked to any obvious biological problems, patients have often been blamed for their conditions.

But now, that stigma appears to be on the decline, especially as physiological biomarkers for mental illness—for instance, changes in brain structure—begin to emerge. Ideally, growing recognition of mental illness as a biological phenomenon will fuel efforts to meet ongoing needs for adequate treatment, and as importantly, for environmental interventions that might serve to cost-effectively prevent large numbers of cases.

Obesity stress Top
A mouse study in the July 2007 issue of Nature Medicine shows that repeated stress in combination with a high-fat/high-sugar diet causes the release of the hormone neuropeptide Y (NPY), which in turn causes a buildup of abdominal fat. NPY is an appetite stimulant and growth factor that both enlarged fat cells and stimulated the production of new fat cells and blood vessels to support them. Each day, some of the mice stood in cold water for an hour, while others were exposed to an aggressive alpha male for 10 minutes. Stressed mice on a conventional diet had little variation in weight. But stressed mice on a high-fat/high-sugar diet accumulated twice as much abdominal fat in the first two weeks as unstressed mice on a conventional diet. Cold exposure not only increased circulating NPY but also, when combined with the poor diet, markedly upregulated expression of NPY in abdominal fat. The study is the first to show the importance of NPY’s role in obesity and metabolic syndrome.

Source: Kuo LE, Kitlinksa JB, Tilan JU, Li L, Baker SB, Johnson MD, et al. 2007. Neuropeptide Y acts directly in the periphery on fat tissue and mediates stress-induced obesity and metabolic syndrome. Nat Med 13(7):803–811.

Genes shyness Top
In the December 2005 issue of Psychological Science, researchers at the University of Maryland found that children with a particular variant of the serotonin transporter gene whose mothers reported low social support were more likely to be shy. However, if their mothers had plenty of social support, children with this variant were at no greater risk of shyness. The protein produced by the short form of the gene is known to predispose toward some forms of stress sensitivity (such as anxiety). In followup work published in the February 2007 issue of Current Directions in Psychological Science, the team found that mothers of naturally shy children may respond to their children in less nurturing fashion, reinforcing the children’s fearfulness and shyness.

Sources: Fox NA, Nichols KE, Henderson HA, Rubin K, Schmidt L, Hamer D, et al. 2005. Evidence for a gene–environment interaction in predicting behavioral inhibition in middle childhood. Psychol Sci 16(12):921–926.

Fox NA, Hane AA, Pine DS. 2007. Plasticity for affective neurocircuitry: how the environment affects gene expression. Curr Dir Psychol Sci 16(1):1–5.

Laughter allergies Top
Findings published in the June 2007 issue of the Journal of Psychosomatic Research suggest that when a mother laughs, her breast milk becomes enriched with melatonin that can ease allergic responses in her nursing infant. Laughter is known to increase natural killer cell activity in blood and free radicals in saliva, as well as reduce allergic skin wheal responses (the presence of raised, itchy patches) in patients with atopic eczema. The study included 48 infants with mild allergies to latex and dust mites. Half the mothers also had atopic eczema. When mothers watched a Charlie Chaplin film, breast milk concentrations of melatonin were significantly elevated up to eight hours after viewing, compared with the milk of mothers who watched a weather information film. Skin prick tests showed that infants who drank the melatonin-rich breast milk had a reduced wheal response.

Source: Kimata H. 2007. Laughter elevates the levels of breast-milk melatonin. J Psychosom Res 62(6):699–702.

Health costs parental depression Top
A study in the April 2007 issue of Pediatrics is the largest to date to show that children who have at least one depressed parent are more likely to use expensive health services. Researchers looked at patterns of health care use for nearly 70,000 Colorado children aged 3 months to 17 years. Nearly 25,000 of the children had at least one parent who had been diagnosed as having depression. Although teenagers of depressed parents had 5% fewer well-child visits, they were more likely to visit emergency departments and specialty clinics (including mental health, optometry, orthopedic, head/neck surgery, ophthalmology, dermatology, and allergy specialists). Infants with depressed parents had 14% more sick visits and 18% more emergency department visits than infants with nondepressed parents. More screening and treatment of parental depression would result in fewer emergency department visits and other expensive health care practices, and maternal screening during well child visits has already proven successful.

Source: Sills MR, Shetterly S, Xu S, Magid D, Kempe A. 2007. Association between parental depression and children’s health care use. Pediatrics 119(4):e829–e836.

Enzymes autism Top
Research in the April 2007 issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine showed a positive correlation between a diagnosis of autism in children and a polymorphism in a gene coding for the enzyme glutathione S-transferase in their mothers. These enzymes are involved in the detoxification of endogenous compounds such as peroxidized lipids, and in the metabolism of xenobiotic agents. The researchers determined the frequency of glutathione polymorphisms in 137 members of 49 families with a history of autistic spectrum disorders. Mothers of children with autism were 2.7 times more likely to carry the GSTP1*A haplotype. The results suggest that the haplotype “may be acting in mothers during pregnancy to contribute to the phenotype of autism in the fetus.”

Source: Williams TA, Mars AE, Buyske SG, Stenroos ES, Wang R, Factura-Santiago MF, et al. 2007. Risk of autistic disorder in affected offspring of mothers with a glutathione S-transferase P1 haplotype. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 161(4):356–361.

Alcoholism brain size Top
Alcoholics tend to have smaller brains than nonalcoholics, perhaps because ethanol causes the brain to shrink excessively with aging. A study published online in Biological Psychiatry on 15 February 2007 shows that brain size in alcoholics is also affected by their parents’ drinking, even before the alcoholic’s own dependence begins. Researchers used magnetic resonance imaging to measure intracranial volume (ICV)—a gauge for the lifetime maximum volume of the brain—in a group of people being treated for alcoholism. The average ICV of adult alcoholic children of alcoholic parents was about 4% smaller than that of adult alcoholics without family histories of alcoholism. Adult alcoholic children of alcoholic parents also had IQs averaging nearly 6 points lower than IQs of alcoholics with no parental drinking. The ICV of women in the study appeared to be affected more by their mothers’ drinking than their fathers’; this effect was not seen in the men in the study. The authors suggest that the increased risk for alcoholism among children of alcoholics may be due to a genetic or environmental effect, or both, related to reduced brain growth.

Source: Gilman JM, Bjork JM, Hommer DW. Parental alcohol use and brain volumes in early-and late-onset alcoholics. Biol Psychiatry 2007 Feb 15 [published online ahead of p

show me where there is anything that has to do with religion here.
there is none at least here...this even says that urban born children have a higher rate of mental illness.
it also says that laughter is great for the children of nursing mothers!! :)
Steve if you would say that:
religion CAN
religion May
religion SOMETIMES
religion WHATEVER
it is your absolutism i have a problem with.
even if you prefaced it with i believe...it wouldnt sound like
ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE DELUDED.
and to me using the word deluded or delusional is an insult.
is that your intent?
just sayin.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 08:57AM by bignevermo.

You categorically claimed:

“Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.”

Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:

(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and

(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor.

the unquoted words are yours are they not? i mean no Principal Investigator would say:
"astute readers would know of its role in that regard..."
and i was revising this when the time ran out Sat. night...i should not have written:"although none actually state that.”
religion definitely CAN be an environmental factor in mental illness.... although religion is only a small part of the "environment". heavy metals,where you are born,your mothers milk,etc. are also part of the environment.

when you are speaking of scientific studies you have to be succinct and specific.. as do the PI's that actually conduct the research. they dont make extraordinary claims and yet you use their research on this and other issues and you then make assertions and make conclusions that they(the PI's) dont!

form the "unread" Biggy!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 11:39AM by bignevermo.

not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
"not every"..that must mean there is at least one...
show me the source that says:
“all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
any reputable source at all...
certainly NONE of your sources you cite here...
just sayin...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 10:43AM by bignevermo.

ok thanks for playing!
:)

. . . and I did so by repeating to you quotations from sources as they appeared in the OP which undermined your categorical claims to the contrary.

You can go back now (as you are frantically trying to do by trying to backfill but you've already demonstrably been counter-proven by the reiteration of points, combined with quotes, brought to your attention from the OP).

Like I said, you and I weren't looking at the same post, bigneveread.

And, as I asked before, what books have you read lately on the subject?

( . . . crickets . . . )

Ok, thanks for trying to play. :)



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 12:14PM by steve benson.

I'm not sure if it's wise for a layman like me to pontificate on a professional manual like the DSM but what the heck...

The problem I see is that most humans suffer from one delusion or another. Some people are absolutely and irrationally (or so it seems to me) devoted to Apple. Should the DSM distinguish an electronics-type deliusional disorder?

What about patriotism, or allegiance to a political party or a sports club? Many of the criteria quoted in the OP apply just as well to these and many other preferences in life.

One of the diagnostic criteria for delusional disorder (if I understand it correctly) is that the delusion does not limit the sufferer's functioning in other areas. To me, that kinda puts the whole debate in perspective: we're talking about people who are basically normal, except that they hold some beliefs that do not have a basis in fact.

Well, who doesn't?

I'm sure I'm less qualified than you . . . . but . . . .

The scope of the delusions matters. I'm deluded that apple computers are better than some other. That's minor. You get to delusions about your religion, like mormonism, I'm not sure what "other areas" are left in your life that are not affected.

Good point. I guess it depends how far a delusion is taken. Maybe this is where the whole cult-thing comes into play. Cults tend to manipulate their members into going further than they would have gone on their own.