In another thread, poster "just browsing" declared the following:
"For all the non believers in an afterlife. Comments [requested].
"LINK FROM DESERET NEWS--4 police officers heard an adult woman's voice pleading to be helped coming from a partially submerged car--Only occupants inside were a deceased woman and an unconscious 2 year old. SPOOKY !!!!
"What think you?"
("For All the Non-Believers in an Afterlife, Comments," at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1532848,1532848#msg-1532848)
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As the saying goes, dead women tell no tales--but believers in non-deadism do.
All of the following are "proof" of an "afterlife," of "God," of the "supernatural"? Not so fast, folks:
"'II FELT LIKE I COULD HEAR someone telling me, "I need help,' [Officer Bryan] DeWitt told CNN affiliate KSL. 'It was very surreal, something that I felt like I could hear.'" [emphasis added]
"Tyler Beddoes, a third officer at the scene, said the same.
"'Someone said "help me" inside that car,' he said.
("Baby who survived car crash in Utah river is getting better," at:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2015%2F03%2F09%2Fus%2Futah-baby-alive-submerged-car%2F&ei=xv_9VLqKKYinNoeUgKgH&usg=AFQjCNG89jK6Ix774Fy3muuiECc54LkmeQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY"'I remember hearing a voice that didn't sound like a child just say, "Help me," one of the rescuers, Officer Jared Warner, told NBC affiliate KSL. 'TO ME, it was plain as day,' he added." [emphasis added]
("Lily Groesbeck Rescue: Utah Cops Recall Pulling Toddler From Overturned Car in River," at:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Futah-rescuers-recall-pulling-toddler-overturned-car-river-n319831&ei=xv_9VLqKKYinNoeUgKgH&usg=AFQjCNGvigvAVw3yJy_pB8ceeb7ilbVdVw&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)
"Four Spanish Fork police officers all said they heard it.
"'We've gotten together and just talkin' about it, and all four of us can swear that we heard somebody inside the car saying, "Help,"' officer Jared Warner recalled Sunday. . . .
"Dewitt was one of the first officers to arrive. The incident was originally reported as a possible abandoned vehicle in the river. But as he got closer, he said he could see the mother inside. Three more officers arrived almost simultaneously at the river.
"'We were down on the car and a distinct voice says, "Help me, help me,"' Dewitt recalled.
"'It wasn't just something that was just in our heads. TO ME it was plain as day cause I remember hearing a voice,' officer Tyler Beddoes said. [emphasis added] 'I think it was Dewitt who said, "We're trying. We're trying our best to get in there."
"'How do you explain that? I don't know,' he said, adding that the voice didn't sound like a child."
("Rescuers Recall 'Distinct Voice' that Spurred Them to Rescue Trapped Toddler," at;
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ksl.com%2F%3Fnid%3D148%26sid%3D33747089&ei=tw3-VMnEM5PcgwTq4IKQDw&usg=AFQjCNEcswSKOgntjbIRws-eEkC6IBFd8Q&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)
"The officers who rescued a Utah toddler from death’s doorstep in a submerged car on Sunday said their adrenaline-fueled heroics were triggered by a mysterious plea. . . .
"The vehicle crashed into the river around 10:30 p.m., according to a witness who told police he heard the accident. The car was not visible from the roadway, and was not discovered until 14 hours later, when a fisherman spotted it at 12:24 p.m. Saturday and called police.
"That’s when Beddoes and his partners arrived. The witness told them that he could see an arm through the window, and the four men plunged into the freezing rapids to see if they could find any survivors.
"Then, suddenly, they started hearing the distinct sound of a woman’s voice, calling to them to help.
"'We heard a voice saying "help me, WE'RE in here." [emphasis added. [NOTE: Now the voice is claimed to have been speaking for both mother and child, as opposed to just "me".] It was clear as day. We replied back 'hang in there, we're trying what we can.'
"The voice motivated them to push harder because they believed there may be someone inside who was still alive. With their adrenaline pumping they pulled the heavy, water-filled car onto its side and discovered the driver was dead.
"The officers had no explanation for the mysterious voice that appeared to come from inside the car. Beddoes said he said he wouldn’t believe it really happened JAD NOT THE OTHER OFFICERS HEARD IT AS WELL. [emphasis added]
“'I don’t know what I THOUGHT I HEARD,' he said. 'I’m not a typically religious guy. It’s hard to explain--it was definitely something. Where and why it came from, I’m not sure.'"
("'Mysterious Voice' Led Utah Officers to Child Who Survived for 14 Hours in Submerged Car," at:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fmysterious-voice-leads-police-baby-car-crash-article-1.2142732&ei=kg7-VLvcDsamggTDooAY&usg=AFQjCNEtOY5a8jodSrBJb8caoz_3eHKSSQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)
"As four Utah police officers approached an overturned car discovered below a bridge in an icy river, they heard a woman's voice asking softly for help. . . .
"And that voice? Beddoes said he and the three officers talked later and concurred they all heard the same thing. They can't explain it, but have no doubt they heard it.
"'That's the part that really sends me for a whirl,' Beddoes said. 'I'm not really religious, BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK OF.' [emphasis added] . . .
"Beddoes said the family has thanked him and the other officers for helping to save little Lily. As he recalls the events of those chaotic moments, on a frigid but sunny day, Beddoes still can't believe the girl survived--and still can't make sense of that undeniable voice coming from the car.
"'We all got together and we all heard the same type of thing,' Beddoes said. 'We just can't grasp what we were hearing.'"
("Toddler Improving After 14 Hours in Upside-Down Car in River," at:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2Faponline%2F2015%2F03%2F09%2Fus%2Fap-us-car-in-river-infant-found.html&ei=TBD-VLzrNYiUNtPXgfAI&usg=AFQjCNG2EhHZv2Seclmct1X61ugZ54vWaw&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)
Whoa. Take a deep breath.
Did the officers perhaps also "FEEL" they heard someone say, "help me"? Were they subliminally predisposed to "hear" a voice because another said he "FELT" he had heard a voice? Or that, as one of the officers officer stated, "TO ME," [that voice] was as plain as day"? Were the officers affected by what one responding officer said "I THOUGHT I heard"?
"Hear" we go again. A supernatural spin being put on an event that doesn't automatically or necessarily require "GOD" as the explanation.
*Critical reaction to the supposedly mystical aspect of the story:
--"I'm skeptical. People claim to see UFOs, be abducted, see heaven when they pass away, see dead relatives etc. People as witnesses often believe they correctly identify suspects in a lineup. I think human minds are really easily swayed into creating memories that may or may not be based on real events. It wouldn't surprise me if someone told her about the event and she reconstructed it in her head, and now believes she vividly remembers it."
--"That's . . . true. Either way, that's all I'm willing to go into on that one. There's not much point to trying to prove a personal story."
("Baby Found Alive 13 Hours after Car Plunges into a River in Utah"
For those willing to swallow tales of the "sacred," superstitious and sensational, the following article is recommended, "Child’s Rescue Swirls with Supernatural":
"An 18-month-old child survives a tragic car crash into a river, a crash that likely instantly killed her mother. She is rescued 14 hours later, alive, still strapped into her car seat. Rescuers then tell the media that they were prompted by an adult female voice that called “Help” from the overturned vehicle. What are we to think of this? Miracle? Guardian angel? Or misinterpretation? The dramatic story has commentators arguing about God and supernatural intervention.
"'Rescuers Claim Mystery Voice Called to Them to Save Toddler Trapped in Car That Overturned in Utah River'
"'Lily wasn’t moving when rescuers found her, hanging upside down in her mother’s smashed car. It had flipped over into a frigid Utah river half a day before, and the baby was still strapped in her seat.
"'Lily’s mother, Lynn Jennifer Groesbeck, died in the crash that had landed their car on its roof in the Spanish Fork River. She was 25 years old. . . .
"'A mystery arose from the rescue: The police officers who entered the water say they heard a voice calling for help.
"'The mother was dead, but the officers said that they heard an adult’s voice calling to them.
“'The four of us heard a distinct voice coming from the car,' Warner told CNN. 'To me, it didn’t sound like a child’s voice.'
"'The voice gave the rescuers a surge of adrenaline needed to push the vehicle upright, he said.'
A local heard the crash the night before but could not see anything strange. A fisherman spotted the vehicle. So, this was not an isolated area. Could there have been someone else around? As suggested on Group of Fort, perhaps a homeless woman was there. Or, the story notes that all the rescuers “discussed” the event. Could it be that one heard what he thought was a cry for help (but instead was an echo or other noise misperceived) and the others agreed? Or, shall we assume that after 14 hours, now was the time that God or the guardian angel chose to act? That’s confusing.
"The mysterious voice did not actually save the child since rescuers were already on the scene and checking for survivors. What saved this child was the car seat, the person who called emergency services, and the rescuers who got her out. No miracle here."
*Attached reader commentary on the above:
-"Not surprising. Religious opportunists will exploit any occasion to put a religious spin on any feel-good story. Isn’t it near Easter enough to call it an Easter Miracle?"
-"Riversides can be quite noisy, depending on what the water is interacting with as it passes by, rocks, trees, etc. And in that circumstance, the ‘cry’ could have been caused by rushing water interacting with parts of the half-submerged car. Also, the rescuers would have been trained and primed to listen for calls for help as part of their job, so perhaps they erred on the side of caution when interpreting the sound as human caused."
-"Heard this story on the 'Today Show' and, naturally, everyone had to chime in on what a ‘miracle’ it was. It seems that anytime someone escapes death or serious injury in any sort of accident it’s a ‘miracle’ to everyone working on television. Wouldn’t it be more of a miracle if everyone in the accident or tragedy walked away without injury rather than one or two? To me the 'miracle' is that some of these folks throwing the term around actually have jobs in journalism."
-"So, it was a miracle the child lived (and to be clear I’m happy the child survived)--but what about the mother who died? She didn’t deserve a miracle? Where is HER miracle? And wouldn’t the child be happier with a living mother?"
-"I was born and raised not far from where this story happened. And from my personal experience, I can say these sort of faith-promoting rumors have a long-standing tradition. Most active members of the pre-dominant religion [Mormon] are always on the lookout for divine interventions, personal revelations and anything that supports their beliefs. Almost every family has some kind of story of a relative that was saved by a vision or a voice. Chance occurrences never seem to happen--always there is some divine purpose. These stories are pretty much a dime a dozen throughout the region. My comment does not mean I think the men involved are liars. Far from it. They probably sincerely believe they were guided. Its just when you are raised to see and expect miracles, you are very likely to experience one–or assume what you see is one."
("Child’s Rescue Swirls with Supernatural Commentary," by "idoubtit," 11 March 2015, on "Doubtful News: Belief/Superstition, Paranormal, Perception, Unsolved Mystery,"at:
http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/03/childs-rescue-swirls-with-supernatural-commentary/)
_____
As much as we may deeply want to believe that a baby, trapped in the rear seat of a half-submerged car with her dead mother in the front seat, was calling out for help and that, through God's power police officers heard this distress cry and rescued the child, such tales can have other than supernatural explanations.
-A case in point:
"A business man happened to be in Triest [Italy] at the time of [an] earthquake. Upon learning of the disaster he
started immediately for Messina. When he reached the destroyed city he was told that his wife and children had been rescued and sent to Naples. When he reached Naples he was informed that they had been sent to Rome. At Rome he learned that they had probably perished. He returned to Messina with some
workmen, located his house, and eight days after the earthquake, his wife and children were rescued alive.
"Where several living persons were entombed together they took turns in calling in the hope that their voices might be heard. Rescue parties as they went about their labors called in
loud voices, 'Any one there?' In one instance a party heard the cry, 'Maria, Maria.' After many hours of digging the owner of the voice proved to be nothing more nor less than a hungry parrot."
("The Spell of Sicily: Garden of the Mediterranean," by Will Seymoure, Monroe," at:
https://archive.org/stream/spellsicilygard00monrgoog/spellsicilygard00monrgoog_djvu.txt; and
https://archive.org/stream/spellsicilygard00monrgoog/spellsicilygard00monrgoog_djvu.txt)
-A similar story:
"A woman thought someone was in danger, but when she went to explore the situation, it turned out that the person in distress was an escaped bird in a tree.
"An unidentified woman was on the top of the hill near the Holland Hill School, which is located at 105 Meadowcroft Rd. [Fairfield, CT], around 5 p.m. when she told police that she heard someone screaming.
"'The voice kept saying "daddy," "daddy," "daddy," then said "what,"' said Fairfield police Lt James Perez. 'Almost if the child was talking to someone else.'
"The woman began searching for the person, who she believed was a child in distress.
"'As she was looking for the source of the voice, she kept following it and brought her to a tree near the school where she looked up and saw it was a parrot,' Perez said.
"After calling animal control, the officer was unable to remove the parrot because it was 25 feet up the tree. The animal control officer was forced to call the fire department.
"When firefighters arrived, they used a ling pole to get the bird out of the tree, which flew to a nearby bamboo tree area, police said. Firefighters were able to chase the parrot out of the area, net the animal and bring it to a local shelter.
"During the whole process, authorities said the parrot, who is named Ralphie, said several words including 'hello,' 'daddy' and 'what.'
"The parrot had been reported missing by its owner, Christopher Gerbasi, of Fairfield, and had been gone for days. The woman located the bird about a mile from his home.
"'We're just happy there were no children that were hurt and that it wasn't a child at all,' Perez said. 'But in fact a bird just yearning for its father or its daddy, and we got it back to him.'"
("Woman Mistakes Parrot for Child in Distress," at
http://www.wfsb.com/story/25771046/woman-mistakes-child-in-distress-for-missing-parrott#ixzz3TxKzOni7)
Sometimes these faithfully-relayed stories of miraculous rescue, while inspiring, can be nothing more than flights of fancy.
______
The following was written by a desperate religious believer, apparently unable to comprehend how his group-orgie in the supernatural can be shot to pieces by what he calls "scientific" arguments (some, admittedly, more scientific than others, but let's go ahead and watch as he lists them all):
"'Top Ten Scientific Explanations of Miracle of Sun at Fatima'
"'The Miracle of the Dancing Sun at Fatima,' which was seen by 70,000 people on October 13th, 1917, has been written about often. But many people continually attempt to explain away the vision of the sun dancing in the sky at a foretold time.
"Avelino de Almeida, wrote articles for 'O Século,' Portugal's most widely-circulated and influential newspaper, which was pro-government and anti-clerical at the time. Almeida's previous articles had been to satirize the previously reported events at Fatima but here's what he wrote that day:
"'Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws--the sun "danced" according to the typical expression of the people.'
"But secularists have amassed an enormous amount of explanations as to why we should not believe our own eyes. Here are the astounding reasons they've amassed so we should believe nothing at all special happened in Portugal that great day.
"1. Stratospheric Dust. Steuart Campbell, writing for the 1989 edition of 'Journal of Meteorology,' postulated that a cloud of stratospheric dust changed the appearance of the Sun on 13 October, making it easy to look at, and causing it to appear yellow, blue, and violet and to spin. In support of his hypothesis, Mr. Campbell reports that a blue and reddened sun was reported in China as documented in 1983.
"2. ESP! (Always my favorite) Author Lisa Schwebel claims that the event was a supernatural (but non-miraculous) extra-sensory phenomenon. Schwebel notes that the solar phenomenon reported at Fátima is not unique--there have been several reported cases of high-pitched religious gatherings culminating in the sudden and mysterious appearance of lights in the sky.
"3. Mock-Sun. Didn't even know this existed but it's worth a listen. Joe Nickell, a skeptic and investigator of paranormal phenomena, claims that the position of the phenomenon, as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun. He suggests the cause may have been a 'sundog.' Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or 'mock sun,' a 'sundog' is an atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the 'dancing sun.' So Nickell further suggests an explanation for this phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement). So, the people shook their heads and though a mock-sun was dancing. All 70,000? Prety ridiculous, huh?
"4. Dust cloud! Paul Simons, in an article entitled "'Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fatima,' states that he believes it possible that some of the optical effects at Fatima may have been caused by a cloud of dust from the Sahara.
"5. Ye ol mass hallucination theory. Author Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, as similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. (Yeah, because that happens all the time.) But McClure's account fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time, or the sudden drying of people's sodden, rain-soaked clothes.
"6. UFO! It has been argued that the Fatima phenomenon was an alien craft. Of course, either that craft happened to come on the day that the three little children said a miracle would occur. Or the apparitions were all the works of little green men. This all sounds a lot more real than the Church's explanation.
"7. Solar Storm. A gigantic coronal mass ejection (CME) occurred. Every 11 years, our sun goes through a period of solar storms and these storms have been with us for
centuries of recorded history. Solar flares emit high-speed particles that cause the Northern Lights or Aurora Borealis. Well that explains it all right there. Because we all know the Northern Lights look exactly like the Sun dancing. Or not.
"8. Peer pressure. Among a uniform people sharing a particular religious belief, it is very easy for individuals to feel social pressure to conform to whatever is seen as a part of 'how things should be" for 'true believers.' 70,000 people. That's pretty strong peer pressure especially for the people who saw it 20 miles away.
"9. Not everyone saw it. Astronomers noticed no dancing in the sky from all over the world. The dancing sun was a regional event thus disproving it. A quick question would be the fact that it was a regional event should prove that something out of the ordinary happened. If it happened worldwide it would be written off as simply an astronomical event because the whole world saw it.
"10. An Eclipse. These fellas don't mind contradicting themselves. This would be a very, very regional eclipse. Wouldn't astronomers have noted the eclipse?
"Bonus Reason:
"11. Evolution. This is sadly from Institute of Physics, Catholic Univeristy of Louvain. Evolution has provided us with the infamous 'zoom and loom effect.' It tends to appear when the brain is confronted with the two-dimensional retinal image of an object thatis situated at some unknown distance. The brain will then consider the possibility that it could come closer, by performing an illusory mental zoom, where the apparent size of the object isprogressively increased. This results from the fact that evolution preserved the tendency to take into account the possibility of a dangerous approach: a rapid evasive action could bebeneficial for survival. When the “idea” of an approach does not lead to any real danger, theperceived object returns to its normal place. Thus the dancing sun. Amazing. 70,000 people thought the Sun was a predator coming to eat them. When they realized the Sun had no teeth they "zoomed and loomed" it back to where it belonged. That might just be my favorite one.
"So, after listening to these level-headed scientists(?) explain away Fatima hasn't it convinced you to join the Richard Dawkins fan club? Me neither."
("Top Ten Scientific Explanations of 'Miracle of Sun at Fatima,' on "Creative Minority Report," at:
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2007/10/scientists-explain-away-miracle-of-sun.html)
Whatever, Einstein. No "Dancing Sun Miracle at Fatima" will melt your brain freeze. Let me tell you about the Rescuing River Voice Miracle at Spanish Fork . . .
The bottom line from the bottom of that river is that the baby survived because it was strapped in its infant seat hanging upside down in the rear section of the car above the near-freezing water. The mother died because she was submerged in the front driver's seat after the car hit a cement barrier at the south end of bridge and vaulted into the river. The baby's survival wasn't "miraculous." It was a matter of basic, material, explainable science.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2015 06:57PM by steve benson.