Subject: Do Mormons recognize their church as a loyalty cult?
Date: Jun 16, 2006
Author: Deconstructor - (also see below #LDS Church calls for blind obedience )

Several people here have pointed out that the Mormon Church is a loyalty cult.

I think there is strong evidence from current church leaders that they see the church the same way.

See:
http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm

But do most rank-and-file members recognize that they are in a loyalty-cult? I mean, they go through obedience motions, but are they self-aware of it?

There is a major Mormon mantra about agency (formerly referred to as free agency) that I think keeps Mormons in the dark about what is really going on.

Church lesson manuals propagate the agency mantra with quotes likes these:

"The agency of man is a fundamental principle which, according to the tenets of the Church, even God Himself does not suppress."

"Can you find an organization, ecclesiastical or otherwise, that has the same perfection of government and organization in it as can be found in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, established by inspiration through the Prophet Joseph Smith? And what is the object of that organization? Is it to crush men? Is it to injure you? Is it to bow you down unto the earth? Is it to deprive you of your liberties, of your rights, of your privileges? Is it to make you slaves, menials, and degrade you unto the dust? Or is it to raise you up into the scale of intelligence and of manliness and increase your liberties, for there is no liberty like the liberty of the gospel of Jesus Christ?"

"I believe that there is not a freer, more independent nor a more intelligent people to be found anywhere in the world, who are more independent in choosing the course which they pursue, in the work that they perform and in everything that they have to do with, than the Latter-day Saints. There is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in good standing, anywhere in all the world today that is not such by reason of his independence of character, by reason of his intelligence, (and) wisdom.."
- Lesson Manual: Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph F. Smith, 32: "Liberty through Obedience"

This just seems like a huge contradiction. TBMs get upset when you suggest that the Mormon church insists on conformity of thought. Then when one of them questions the church publicly, they all say he deserved getting slapped down.

Church leaders seem to know, but are other Mormons consciously aware that they are in a loyalty cult?

Subject: Interesting! This website [Exmormon.org] is blocked on the BYU campus! What do they have to fear? 


Subject: Re: Do Mormons recognize their church as a loyalty cult?
Date: Jun 16 11:40
Author: franz

It's an interesting read to replace the word "church" with "Third Reich" and "prophet" or "church leaders" with "Fuhrer". Obedience, the first law of dictatorships...

Subject: Re: Do Mormons recognize their church as a loyalty cult?
Date: Jun 16 12:02
Author: Trainer

No. If you have the "Spirit", you automatically WANT to follow the prophet and your local leaders unquestioningly. People who don't follow like sheep and who ask awkward questions are obviously prompted by the devil. The faithful are "free to choose" because everyone knows that faithful people choose to follow the church's teachings (whatever those teachings happen to be at the time).

Subject: Basic human nature?
Date: Jun 16 11:47
Author: Logic

Deconstructor,

Great information as usual.

It seems that there is something intrinsic about humans need to conform. We have this need to turn a certain amount of control over to an outside source as a way to feel connected. We put our children in school, sports and various other activities where conforming to rules is required as a passport to participate. As adults we work, join clubs or become involved in hobbies that require conforming to certain rules to participate.

Obviously religion has requirements but attached to those are "eternal" consequences. It goes far beyond conforming to social mores needed for society to survive. It has endless forever consequences for disloyalty. I was able for years to over look the absurdity of absolute loyalty because my very soul hung in the balance. In a nutshell I was afraid. And fear drove me to remain completely loyal to ANYONE who was in authority over me in the church.

So in answer to your question do "mormons" recognize the church as a loyalty cult? I don't think so. They are just following the rules laid out. If you want to be part of the club for ETERNITY just follow the rules. Its in our nature!

Subject: Re: Do Mormons recognize their church as a loyalty cult?
Date: Jun 16 11:58
Author: Foxx

I agree that the agency principle has them believing that they all really have chosen, with full awareness, to do what they believe they should do.

It's funny to me, though, when they admit things like "the Church is NOT a democracy. It's a theocracy." A theocracy is government led by one person (who also happens to be God). Dictatorships are also led by one person. And then they can't seem to see the difference between asking your own questions for the sake of truth and asking if the prophet/teacher/leader was right about something. They can't see that because they stand to lose more by getting a negative answer to their prayer, the probability of them getting a positive answer is astronomically high.

Subject: It is not a loyalty cult, the members just follow the prophet.
Date: Jun 16 12:02
Author: Flying Under the Radar

He is after all, the sole spokesman for god. He is just relaying messages from god, so why wouldn't you do as he says, without question?

Subject: Funny thing...
Date: Jun 16 12:34
Author: Tal Bachman

Thanks for the post, Deconstructor.

It's a funny thing - there's this pattern you see over and over again in church, where something is the case, and it is even made explicit, and yet the opposite is also stated and repeated by members. For example, Gordon B. Hinckley's 2003 GC talk "Loyalty" makes entirely explicit that church members have not the prerogative of evaluating the correctness of a prophetic command - they are to obey regardless. And the example Hinckley cited to make his point, was Heber J. Grant insisting that Utahans decline to repeal prohibition - even though prohibition led directly to the formation of "secret combinations" all throughout the US, which bribed judges, policement, city councilmen, border guards, shot people, extorted money from people. So, according to Hinckley, even when doing so facilitates murder, extortion, bribery, the erosion of law and order, and the integrity of a political system, you are STILL supposed to "obey" "the prophet".

You cannot get more explicit than that; and when you think of that talk along with so many dozens of other statements from Mormon prophets and apostles, in which total compliance regardless of directive is insisted upon, there is no other way to slice it other than to say that the Mormon church is a loyalty cult. It is not a "tell the truth" cult, or a "personal integrity" cult, or a "let's respect each other's different perspectives while we come together around the figure of Jesus" cult. Nothing else matters in Mormonism, in the end, but loyalty. Everything other virtue is sacrificable. We tell the truth, as long as telling the truth "works" for the church. And then when it doesn't, we tell lies - because that's what the fuhrer/prophet/man-God/dictator wishes. Every virtue is entirely disposable when it clashes with loyalty to the institution and its Colonel Kurtz.

Yet despite all this, it is possible to walk around as a member without full recognition of this...so that you would have a viscerally negative reaction to anyone suggesting you belong to the kind of organization you really belong to.

Anyway, if members don't realize they are in a loyalty cult, the psycho-social dynamics of which are indistinguishable from those in the Branch Davidian or People's Temple compounds, it is only a testament to how fragmented our consciousnesses can become while we are in that setting, surrounded by loved ones, given entirely over to the ideology, dependent on it for identity and belonging...

Subject: Re: Funny thing...
Date: Jun 16 12:55
Author: devashoe

Funny you should mention the People's Temple and the Branch Davidians. I studied both those groups along with Mormonism this past semester and couldn't find any real differences between the leaders of the three cults. The only thing the PT and BD lacked was someone as bright and determined as Brigham Young to take the movement to the next level!

Subject: Re: Do Mormons recognize their church as a loyalty cult?
Date: Jun 16 18:18
Author: pixie

Deconstructor,
Wow- I searched your name and read through a lot of your posts. Amazing amount of info!
I don’t think that people realize it for the most part. It's like they have these glasses on and they see everything through a filter. They are just trying to do the right thing and be obedient. For me anyway, I NEVER thought of it like that until I was out of it- and even then it took some adjusting. I thought of obedience as a quest- something to be proud of and strive to achieve, not that the guidelines restricted me. I thought I was trusting in my Savior- isn't that who the Prophet is supposed to speak for?? However, once the glasses are off, was astonishing how absolutely twisted and tainted everything becomes! I have to take breaks from updating myself with stuff that happens because I just still feel so betrayed and disgusted and just sad. Thinking outside of the box is definitely not allowed- it is nixed very quickly so it doesn't allow people to even come to their own conclusions on things- or to question. Isn't the glory of God intelligence?? Yeah- "learn everything, but don’t ask any questions or we'll kick you out of the church for apostatizing and you will lose your salvation!! Even the elect will be deceived!"

Look at the guilt there!! No wonder we have a site that is dedicated to helping us recover!!!

Subject: LDS Church calls for blind obedience (July 2005!)
Date: Jun 13, 2006 
Author: Deconstructor

Less than a year ago, the church published a talk by LDS Apostle Dallin Oaks which calls for blind obedience.

It seemed silly at the time and received little attention here.

Now with the church taking action against a BYU professor again, the church's rhetoric on obedience once again is in the limelight.

Based on the church's position as explained in this talk, it's no wonder Nielsen got the boot. And TBMs seem to be getting justification from the church to demonize him.

"For us, to 'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the kingdom."

"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all things.'"

"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge."

"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church position should have been . . .'"

"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they are not quite willing to surrender."

"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me.'"

"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction — whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets — to be worthy of obedience."

"One day there will be answers to all our questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over which they have no control."

"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
(Elder Robert Oaks, "Believe All Things," Ensign, July 2005, page 30)
- http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm

How can any TBM that believes this crap have anything but disgust for Jeffrey Nielsen? Hasn't the church set the situation up against free thinkers?


Subject: Oy!
Date: Jun 13 23:58
Author: corn chowder

"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all things.'"

Oh. My. God. Please check your brain at the door, and allow us to tell you what to think. And the part about "willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge" - egads! Wouldn't want anybody to know stuff. That leads to more thinking.

There's no way I could go back. I like to think and stuff. And have opinions. And they don't match up with the current policies and directions.

Subject: This policy is pretty much inevitable. The leaders don't have much choice...
Date: Jun 14 00:48
Author: Peep Stoner

...because they know that truth, reason, analysis and knowledge are not on their side. Blind faith and obedience is the only hope they have to keep the scam alive.

Subject: "Free-agency" for Church members is increasingly closer to becoming extinct .....
Date: Jun 14 00:02
Author: StillStanding

The Church philosophy exemplified in this piece is alarming. The following passage from Oaks' talk encapsulates, for me, why my family is moving away from the Church.

Oaks:
"Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction — whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets — to be worthy of obedience."

Subject: Unquestioning obedience?
Date: Jun 14 00:20
Author: Strider

Is this not what Jim Jones said to his followers as they drank their cups of kool-aid?

Subject: AARRRGGGHHHHHHH!
Date: Jun 14 00:18
Author: SheWhoHasNoName

I don't believe that there are words to describe how angry I have just gotten reading that garbage. Why not just come right out and say that no one is ever to think, but only to do what they are told. This is a sadomasochistic relationship that he is describing, with the hierarchy in the dominant position and the members mere submissives who are never to question, but only to do what they are told, when they are told, and how they are told to do it.

This crap sounds just exactly like what they might say just before hauling out the vats of Kool-Aid.

Subject: Good post Decon
Date: Jun 14 00:27
Author: Obi wan Kolobi

Without having the understanding to appreciate it, the bretheren have just devalued a degree from Brigham Young University. To say that diversity of thought is not welcome at a University, why would anyone think that they are getting a competent and valuable human asset when they hire a BYU grad unless they are looking specifically for yes men. "If you hire yes men, one of you is redundant." Colin Powell

Subject: "We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge." Now, children...
Date: Jun 14 00:44
Author: Peep Stoner

form a line and come get your Kool-Aid. It's refreshing and delicious! Then it will be nap time.

But first repeat after me: "Those people who say we are a cult are bad, bad people who don't know what they are talking about!"

Subject: And who defines what 'the Lord' commands and wants Mormons to do? Senior LDS male leaders - fallible men with huge psychological blindspots.
Date: Jun 14 01:02

Any mental health professional will confirm that one of the fundamental psychological drives in people is to individuate. Thinking for oneself and living fully by one's mind, judgments, and developed values is key to individuation.

Carl Jung, the famous 20th-century Swiss psychoanalyst, taught that our most important 'spiritual' goal in life was (is) to individuate, to differentiate ourselves in thought, word, and deed from the collectives of which we are members (e.g., family-of-origin, society, church or political group, etc.). By 'spiritual', Jung wasn't talking about following the tenets of a particular religion more strictly (as Oaks and the LDS Church's other senior patriarchal leaders would have Mormons do), but in the sense of 'growing' in our individual uniqueness.

Oaks' talk reveals the tight psychological grip that Mormon patriarchy attempts to have on the church's membership. Mormonism is cultish (as so many of us ex-Mormons know from personal experience) and its foundation is corrupt because the religion and organization are based on deception. As such, it will ultimately fail.

Subject: He obviously hasn't been round kids much lately...
Date: Jun 14 04:09
Author: darquestar

"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge."

Once kids get beyond the age of 3 they want to know "why?" when you tell them to do something, and it gets worse as they get older!

Become as a little child? My arse!

Darque

Subject: This doctrine of seeking to become like a little child always confused me, too...
Date: Jun 14 10:15
Author: Johnnie Walker

personally, I like kids. I love my nieces and nephews and the children of my friends. But their "obedience" only lasts until they can walk, and their unquestioning only lasts until they can talk. After those milestones are reached there is a lot of getting into everything, questioning everything, and talking back.

Subject: Re: LDS Church calls for blind obedience (July 2005!)
Date: Jun 14 09:22
Author: wjd

It seems that they want the mind to shrink and go back to the infant stage. Talk about making people go crazy. No growth allowed here, folks.

Subject: I Don't Know About Dallin's Children . . .
Date: Jun 14 10:25
Author: Hellmut

. . . but every child that I know asks endless questions. They rarely accept anything on faith. Any good parent knows quickly how little we really know.

Children are curious and open minded.

 I always thought "believe all things" meant being supremely gullible...


Subject: This is typical Mormon teaching that a truth is a lie! This is very clever programming!
Date: Jun 15 10:02
Author: SusieQ#1

See how he twists what the "world" says which is accurate and says it is not true, but his definition of the Lord's obedience is?

And notice how he sells the Mormons the really big lie that "unquestioning obedience" equates to faith and trust? Wow. That is good! He is really cooking!

This is more of their teaching to "be in the world but not of the world."

He is preaching to the choir of Mormons willing to have their minds twisted into a pretzel and turn lies into truth!

Oaks will go far in Mormonism! He is perfect. He can whittle the members into tapioca pudding and have them eating out of his hand. Expect him to be their prophet some day! The "old suits" must love this guy! He is a well schooled protege! He performs like a trained seal!

Well, that's just "his opinion" as they say to us former Mormons!


"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith.

But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true.

Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction — whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets — to be worthy of obedience."