I resigned my membership in the Church six months ago, though I’ve been a disbeliever for about eight years. My wife and kids are all still active.

My TBM brother and I have had very little interaction over the last six months—a few emails and phone calls. We had a good relationship, until a phone call I received from him a little while ago. He had recently taught a class in his ward on overcoming addiction. He came to the conclusion that I was addicted to pornography (I’m not). He said that I likely lost my testimony of the Church because I went searching for evidence that the Church was not true so that I wouldn’t feel guilty about my porn addiction.

I found his accusations offensive, surprising, and a bit amusing. We have not seen each other in over a year. In the little bit of interaction we’ve had, there has been nothing to indicate anything about porn. I guess he just couldn’t wrap his mind around the possibility that someone who had a very strong testimony of the Church (which I did) could lose that testimony unless it was due to some sin or addiction. And my brother is a smart guy. He’s a head and neck surgeon and went to a top university. He and I have had several deep intellectual discussions on a variety of topics. I’m a little disappointed that he is so narrow-minded when it comes to religion.

I received an email from him the next day. I was expecting perhaps an apology. Instead, this is what I got (I’ve inserted a few comments in square brackets):

copostmo, nice to talk with you last night. I lay in bed for a while, thinking of you and our conversation, and had a few more thoughts. I didn't get a chance to share the excerpt from the Addiction Recovery Program manual I referred to. By the way, this manual was written by addicts for addicts. Hence the first person perspective. Here it is:

"Rarely do people caught in addictive behaviors admit to being addicted. To deny the seriousness of our condition and to avoid detection and the consequences of our choices, we tried to minimize or hide our behaviors. We did not realize that by deceiving others and ourselves, we slipped deeper into our addictions. As our powerlessness over addiction increased, many of us found fault with family, friends, Church leaders, and even God. We plunged into greater and greater isolation, separating ourselves from others, especially from God.

"When we, as addicts, resorted to lies and secrecy, hoping to excuse ourselves or blame others, we weakened spiritually. With each act of dishonesty, we bound ourselves with “flaxen cords” that soon became as strong as chains (see 2 Nephi 26:22). Then a time came when we were brought face to face with reality. We could no longer hide our addictions by telling one more lie or by saying, “It’s not that bad!”

"A loved one, a doctor, a judge, or an ecclesiastical leader told us the truth we could no longer deny—the addiction was destroying our lives. When we honestly looked at the past, we admitted that nothing we had tried on our own had worked. We acknowledged that the addiction had only gotten worse. We realized how much our addictions had damaged relationships and robbed us of any sense of worth. At this point, we took the first step toward freedom and recovery by finding courage to admit that we were not just dealing with a problem or a bad habit. We finally admitted the truth that our lives had become unmanageable and that we needed help to overcome our addictions. The amazing thing about this honest realization of defeat was that recovery finally began."

Last night, you asked me what I thought was the definition of addiction. While I haven't looked up an official definition, I have concluded that it is any habit which is destructive--destructive to you, your marriage, your family, or your relationships. copostmo, from my third-person perspective, I see your past and current situation as destructive. You are destroying your relationship with your wife, your children, your friends (I mean your former friends, not your online "friends"), and your extended family. And for what? What good has any of this done for you?

[Yes, my relationship with my wife is strained (I wouldn’t call it destroyed), but my relationship with my children, friends, and extended family is fine—except for my relationship now with this brother.]

I don't know what you're addicted to. Based on your dramatic focus on sexual purity questions that you brought up last night, statistics that indicate a high prevalence of pornography addiction among LDS men, and personal experience I have had with friends and other family members who have struggled with this same issue, I suspect that it is pornography or something related. And you're right--the church has not done a good job of coping with this prevalent problem. It has certainly identified the problem and preached against it. But with it being so prevalent, I think they should be more open in discussing its causes and treatment rather than just focusing on the guilt from wrongdoing.

[See http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,925488 for a description of my “dramatic focus on sexual purity questions.” Apparently if I don’t want the bishop asking my kids about their sexual behavior, I must be addicted to pornography.]

Maybe your addiction is to these online groups and chatrooms and the comfort they give you in interacting and confiding in people with similar backgrounds and thinking. It's nice to talk to people with similar beliefs, and there is certainly benefit in support groups when going through difficult times. But if it destroys your marriage and family, what's the point? Is it worth it?

[That’s it. I’m addicted to RfM. I need help! Maybe I should see an LDS therapist.]

Again, the reason I am pushing my way in here is because I love you, Mrs. copostmo, and your kids. I have seen first-hand the effects and severe difficulties and stress that come with divorce, and I would do anything to help you avoid that. As [my wife] and I have watched what her sister and her kids have gone through, we have repeatedly recommitted to each other that we will do anything possible to avoid going down that road.

A common theme we have seen in those who have struggled in their marriage is a slow deterioration of trust and communication between the spouses. We saw it in [my wife’s] sister's situation with pornography that led to other problems, and we've seen it in your situation with years of secret research and discussion. We've even seen it in Mom and Dad's situation, where years of deceit and poor communication led to crises and subsequent strains on family relationships. If there's one overriding principle we've learned through all of this, it is the importance of open communication. [My wife] and I keep absolutely NO secrets from each other. I have a personal rule that I have lived by for many years: If I would be uncomfortable having [my wife] look over my shoulder at what I'm looking at or overhear what I'm saying, I don't do it. As long as I abide by that rule, I know I will never get into trouble with her or anything else.

Above all, I believe family relationships are the most important. [My wife] recently had a close friend who died giving birth to their sixth child. It has obviously been very trying for everyone involved, including family and friends. This friend was an excellent example of putting relationships first, for that is ultimately where we will derive our greatest joy from, both in this life and the one to come.

I realize I may have offended you with this email, and you may hate me for it. But I would rather help save your relationship with your wife and kids than preserve your relationship with me. as much as I want to save that too. I see two possible outcomes: either you begin to admit your addictions and work toward overcoming them, or you risk losing your wife and kids. The only person we can change is ourselves.

Please take the first step in the Addiction Recovery Program: "Admit that you, of yourself, are powerless to overcome your addictions and that your life has become unmanageable."

I love you, copostmo. I am fiercely loyal to you. I can see that a long, happy life with your family is attainable, but only if you make your relationship with your family the #1 priority and not let anything get in the way of your happiness together. I know you can do it.

I would simply reply that his constant emphasis on pornography indicates to you that he must be addicted to pornography. When he denies it, tell him that's a true idication of his addiction.

+ a million

This guy sounds super arrogant and insanely self-righteous. And he actually sounds like he might really be addicted to porn! Call him out in response.

Snort.

Does he have a history of being an insufferable know it all?

He seems to puff up his expertise in everything, including your life.

Another explanation is some one told him this stuff about you and he believed it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2013 05:05PM by crom.

This is probabbly true! Projecting for sure!

That was exactly what I was going to say ;)

He can not say that there is no secrets between himself and his wife. In a relationship, one can only be certain that there is no secrets from one's part.

I would tell him that since he is so obsessed with the concept of addiction, you are starting to suspect that he is the one with the addiction. After all, numerous physicians have become addicted to narcotics and other drugs. Ask him to share with you the names of the drugs to which he has become addicted due to his profession.

Then tell him that if he doesn't like unjust accusations made against him, perhaps he should practice the golden rule.

When, exactly, did your brother get his degree in Psychiatry / Psychology / Social Work?

Do you think your wife went behind your back and mentioned something about a purported "sex addiction" to him or his wife?

Just a thought.

It's a shame that your brother has the intelligence to be a surgeon, but not the decency or common sense to trust you, or to see beyond his own narrow and suspicious view of the world.

I asked my wife that question, since she does talk often with my brother's wife. She insisted that she said nothing that would indicate that I have a sex addiction. She also said that she knows that I don't have a porn addiction. It seems my brother came up with this on his own.

I think that "A ANON" below has it about right. Your brother believes that if you have lost the spirit, it is because you have sinned, and the most likely culprit is porn.

The church brainwashed him well.

Doctors have high rates of NPD and bipolar.

They can be smart and competent in one circumstance, and completely stupid and incompetent in another.

Dad can take out your appendix but can't but an Ikea shelf together. Charm the socks off his patients and ward members, but be completely dysfunctional with his family and employees.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2013 05:59PM by crom.

Your brother is completely full of himself. His self importance and conceit litter this Email. Here's what he is saying to you:

"I KNOW what your problem is -- and I KNOW that YOU KNOW what your problem is -- so let's just be honest with each other. Stop blaming the church for your problems. It HAS to be pornography. The church is absolutely true (and you know that in your heart), so that leaves no other explanation than your addiction to pure filth! If you won't act in your own best interest, I'll have to face reality for you. Shape up!"

-- Humbly, your Brother.


Mormonism creates more jerks per square mile than any other religion.

I was rooting for you in your fight to have your kid spared the masturbation interrogation.

My oldest (now 30) was put through that 15 years ago. I guess I had my TBM blinders on, but I didn't even suspect until I came to this board. I asked him about it and he said it happened. I was pretty livid. (DH and I were asked these questions back then and it soured us and we went inactive.) When he told me, I declared my intent to resign and I did.

DS read all your threads. He thought you were extremely reasonable in your requests. The Bishop was out of line, he ignored your parental rights.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2013 06:02PM by crom.

I would spell it out for him in as few words as possible.

1)I am not addicted to porn.
2)You are arrogant to assume you think I am addicted to anything and it is offensive to me for you to say that.
3)The reason I left the church because it is a fraud.

and finally,

4)If you want to know why the church is a fraud I will give you the reasons. Let me know. Porn addiction or guilt for anything is NOT the reason.

I would go with this approach too. No long explainations ever work.

I wouldn't give him what he wants. He's dying for you to say you're offended because he will see that as vindication for his bizarre beliefs.

I would tell him that, far from offended, you are mystified and more than a little worried about HIM. Perhaps he is addicted to his religion. Perhaps he has a very unhealthy attachment to it which is causing him to imagine things about you for which there is absolutely no evidence.

Ask him if he has access to a good therapist of if he would like you to help him find one. Tell him you hope this doesn't affect his career adversely and to let you know if there's anything you can do to be supportive of him getting help with his problem.

+1 for this.

I might reply:

Dear Brother:

The only possible explanation I can come up with for these bizarre, unfounded, and false accusations against my good reputation is that you are suffering from severe cognitive dissonance. Although, as a former believer, I can truly understand how important the purported truth of the church is to you, I did not think you would be willing to sacrifice our relationship and good will on the altar of your delusions. Please consider the possibility that the church may not be what it seems. Free your mind to experience reality. It's great.

Love, copostmo

+1

Your bro has been snorting way too much LDS.

Hehehe..

The LDS drug AND the Electric Mormon Kool Aid...


AND....He is the one who has the fixation with porn.

birth to the sixth child

becomes an example of putting relationships first?

How is that? That woman lost her relationship with her OTHER five children when she died with number six. She lost her LIFE.

Its pretty demented to use that as an example of putting relationships first, unless its an example of putting the LDS church first.

I do not see much hope of even answering your brother, when he sees a widowed husband and five motherless children as some example of putting relationships first and something to be admired.

Just, WOW. And likely NOT the same Oh Wow that Steve Jobs expressed.

I would admit to a porn addiction. Hell, I'd start naming a bunch of films I'd acted in, what I did with who and how much I got paid. And then give a list of titles of porn flics I bought with that money that I earned by being in a porno. Then I'd say - "Well, gotta go, break's over. Cameras are rolling and my fluffer's got an arm cramp . I'll call you later." - (and then don't).

Maybe taking his accusations and furthering them along the line of ridiculousness might make him think a bit. I dunno.

His email is screaming "I look at porn!" So obvious.

wow, your brother is the jackass of all jackasses!

Rule #1- mormons don't apologize
This should be engraved right under 'visitors welcome'

He he!

Thetimeisnow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rule #1- mormons don't apologize
> This should be engraved right under 'visitors
> welcome'

Oh but they do - just not for any real offenses. They usually apologize for things they _imagine_ may be the problem. It's often pretty offensive, in itself.

Exactly! Or they apologize that you felt that way... Or even better-it's your perception...not that I'm an a-hole!

I find it sad that the only way TBM's can wrap their brain around someone becoming disaffected from the TSCC is because of something they have done to separate themselves from the "truth". These ad hominum attacks never cease to amaze me.

Best of luck to you copostmo in dealing with a brother who says, "I love you, copostmo. I am fiercely loyal to you.", yet his actions do not reflect words.

You did not "lose" your testimony. You replaced a warm fuzzy feeling with hard cold facts.

Your brother has "lost" his filter and should mind his own business.

They are taught that the only way people "fall away" is through disobedience. It couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the church or it's doctrines, because that's by default perfect. To even consider that possibility would be to admit that they don't "know it with every fiber of their being."

I would love to hear any follow on to this conversation, if there is one. But that's just me being insensitive and enjoying the drama of other people's lives.

I am truly sorry your brother is saying these things to you.
When I told my sister my reasons for leaving, she wrote back that she "knew those weren't the real reasons :-)"
No where near as bad as what your brother is doing, but quite dismissive in the same mormon way.

Your relationship with your brother is at risk here, as you well know.

There are a thousand excellent comebacks for his ridiculous assertions and his flawed logic.

I urge you to focus on saving the relationship. Frame him in your mind as a victim with brain damage due to ultra high frequency brainwashing at an early age. Seriously, he is a victim and his string of illogic cries out for you to show him kindness combined with actual logic.

He is guilty of a logical fallacy called "post hoc ergo propter hoc," which is Latin for "After, therefor because of." AFTER you made the objection to your child being questioned about sexual activities, you left the church; therefore, it was because of sexual activities that you left. Can't be your child's, so it has to be yours. You're not having an affair, so it has to be porn.

I would be gentle with him because he has, in fact, made a fool of himself with this letter and the fact that he thinks it's a bold move is only all the more pathetic.

Tell him you love him and respect him even if you two don't agree about religion. Tell him there is no connection between you wanting your children to have a parent present when asked sexual questions and the church's problem with pornography addiction. Explain to him that you understand his desperation to find a serious sin behind your apostasy and that you do not take his accusation of porn addiction personally, in fact, you and your wife had a bit of a laugh over it.

Tell him you have compassion for men who suffer from addictions such as porn, alcohol, drugs and caffeine and you have respect for those who have overcome these. Tell him you know he knows you are always available should he want to talk with you further about his research or the church's problem with members who have porn addiction.

He has a hell of a nerve, but it may be that he has a problem with porn and this is someone you love, so you want not to ridicule the idea. Let him know that just like with alcohol, that good people can be addicted to porn.

Best

Anagrammy

STOP. You are being ridiculous. Your obsession suggests that you need to look inside yourself and figure out what YOUR problem is.

PLEASE keep us updated on what happens! I know TBMs are ridiculous but this blew me away.