I’ve posted earlier about an email exchange I had with my children’s bishop regarding interviews with my children:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,896790

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,897767

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,898610

I met again with the bishop a couple of weeks ago, and told him the two conditions to which he needed to agree in order to interview my children (see third link above). To my surprise, he said that he could probably accommodate my request—that he would look into it and get back to me.

The next day, I sent him the following email (and cc’d all three members of the stake presidency):

============================================

Bishop,

This is a follow-up email from our meeting yesterday. I appreciate your willingness to meet with me to discuss the interviewing of my children. I am also sending this email to the stake presidency in case they’re interested.

Let me first reiterate that I think you are a good, kind, and wise man, and a caring bishop. I know you sacrifice a lot of your time to serve the members of [my family’s] Ward, and I believe your motives are pure and that you sincerely want to do what’s best for the members of your ward. I appreciate the love and concern you have shown me and my family.

---

Brief recap for the sake of the stake presidency: Bishop and I met several weeks ago and exchanged a few emails in which I asked Bishop not to ask my children questions related to sexuality. His response was as follows:

“Let me briefly set forth my position on interviewing youth (which, I believe, is consistent with the Church's position). I realize you don't agree with some of what I am about to say, and I respect that. But I want to state it clearly. Sexual purity always will be a requirement for members of the Church and for priesthood holders in particular -- youth included. It is the Bishop's responsibility to address issues of sexual purity with the youth.”

When I talked to Bishop on the phone regarding the above stated position, I told him that I believed the responsibility for defining sexual purity and addressing issues related to sexuality with our children rested solely with my wife and me as their parents. Bishop disagreed. He said that was true “to a degree,” but he reasserted his position that a bishop has responsibility to address issues of sexual purity with the youth.

Bishop and I met yesterday, and I asked again for him to not ask any sexuality related questions of my children besides “Do you live the law of chastity?” I also said that I would like to be present during all interviews with my children. He said that he could probably honor my requests, but that he would get back to me.

---

Before yesterday’s meeting, I had decided to find out whether other Christian churches in the area have this same practice of asking youth about their sexual behavior. I sent an email to several local pastors. In that email, I was careful to use as much as possible your exact words, Bishop, from emails you’ve sent me and discussions we’ve had. Here is the email I sent (note that this email was based on our communications before yesterday; had I sent it after yesterday’s meeting, I would have used different wording, since you were more amenable to potentially agreeing to my requests):

[I then included in this email to the bishop and stake presidency the email I sent to local Christian ministers, along with their responses. See http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,925430.]

It is clear to me that for nearly everyone outside of the LDS Church, the practice of asking youth about their sexual behavior is considered inappropriate. Other words I’ve heard used to describe the Mormon interviewing practice: appalling, abhorrent, disgusting, revolting.

I am not trying to be difficult or obstinate. I am simply trying to protect my children from what I believe are inappropriate and potentially damaging interviewing practices of the Mormon Church. I love my children, and I sincerely believe that my wife and I are perfectly capable of teaching them about sexuality and helping them set proper boundaries. I believe the sexual purity of our children is the responsibility of my children, my wife, and me, not of the Mormon Church. As one of the pastors quoted above said, “The pastor’s job is to teach the Word of God, not be the behavioral police.”

So here are the conditions you, or any other Church leader, must meet if you would like to interview our children:

1. The only question relating to sexuality that you may ask them is “Do you live the law of chastity?” No follow-up questions, no questions about masturbation, no defining the law of chastity—nothing else.

2. I will sit in on all interviews with our children. You, or any other Church leader, may not meet with any of our children without me present.

If you are willing to agree to those two conditions, I will allow you to meet with my children. Otherwise, you may not. I’ll let you know if I change my mind about allowing you to ask my children “Do you live the law of chastity?” For now, I’m OK with it, but I may feel differently later.

I know that you, Bishop and members of the Stake Presidency, along with nearly every other Church leader, are good men. I count all of you as my friends and appreciate the service you give to the ward, to the stake, and to my family. I am not criticizing you in this email; I am criticizing the practice of the Church of asking youth about their sexual behavior. I believe the practice is wrong. The Church has had practices in the past that were wrong and that have been discontinued. I hope the Church discontinues this interviewing practice in the near future. Until then, I cannot allow my children to be subjected to it.

Thanks for your time.

Sincerely,

copostmo

============================================

My wife was upset that I sent this email. She agreed with parts of it, but as a believing Mormon, she does not like to criticize Church leaders. She met with the bishop a few days later to apologize for my email. The bishop was very angry about my email. He said that I had done a horrible thing; that I had twisted his words and misrepresented his intention.

He was angry that I had used his words without his permission. I find this quite ironic, since the stake president forwarded my email to Church headquarters without my permission.

The next day, I sent the following email to the bishop and stake presidency:

============================================

Bishop,

I wanted to send another email to explain my motive for my previous email and the associated research. I hope you don’t have any ill feelings towards me. I have none towards you. I know that you were doing what you thought was right and fulfilling your responsibilities as bishop. I hope you believe me that I was doing what I thought was right in protecting my children.

When I first approached you to ask about the types of questions you ask during interviews, and I asked you to not ask my children about masturbation and other sexual behavior, I wish you would have honored my request as a parent. I felt, and still feel, that that decision is for a parent to make. I know that you were being consistent with Church policy in not agreeing to my request. I think you also would have been within Church policy if you would have agreed.

A few email exchanges later, when you still hadn’t agreed to not ask my children those questions, I felt a little helpless. I felt like you were making choices for my children that should be made by Mrs. copostmo and me. I felt like I only had two options:

1. Refuse to allow you to interview my children. This would mean that they would not be able to advance in the priesthood or attend the temple. This, of course, wouldn’t bother me personally, but I knew those things are important to Mrs. copostmo, and I figured my kids would resent me as well.

2. Allow you to interview my children. I felt like you had made it clear that it was your intention to ask my children questions that I had made it clear I did not want you asking. I felt like that would be potentially damaging to my children.

I did not like either of those options. As I thought more about it, I came up with a third option. I figured that this practice of the Church of asking youth about their sexual behavior would not be considered appropriate outside the Church. I decided that if I asked ministers of other churches their opinion, and if they agreed with me, that I could then send their responses to you, and you would see that I was not alone in my feelings regarding this practice.

In writing my email to the other ministers, I don’t think that I misrepresented what you had told me regarding your position. I don’t think that I exaggerated or took your words out of context. Yes, I did not include your words about discussing things that are gender appropriate, age appropriate, and appropriate to the individual. But note that all of the responses categorically said that asking youth about their sexual behavior was inappropriate. No one said that as long as the questions are appropriate for the person’s age and gender then they’re OK. Please let me know if you feel I misrepresented your intentions in my email.

I was aware that my email would create negative PR for the Church. That was not my primary objective—my primary objective was to protect my children. But it did not bother me that a side effect of the email was that negative PR. I felt like I was telling the truth about a practice of the LDS Church. If that caused others to have a negative perception of the Church, that doesn’t mean the truth should be hidden; it means the practice should be stopped. I do hope the Church discontinues the practice.

When I met with you Sunday morning, I fully expected you to not agree with my two requests. I was pleasantly surprised that you not only didn’t reject them, but indicated that you could probably accommodate them. I still felt, as I had all along, that it shouldn’t have even been a question; that you should have respected my wishes as a parent. So since there was still some question as to whether you would agree to my conditions, I sent the email to you and the stake presidency that I had already mostly written and done the research for.

I hope that we can have a good relationship. The words I said in my last email about you being good, kind, wise, and caring are things that I sincerely feel. I don’t agree with all of your decisions, just like you don’t agree with all of mine. But I still respect you and appreciate what you do for my family.

Congrats on your son entering the MTC. You have a great family. I wish the best for all of you.

Sincerely,

copostmo

============================================

The bishop came to my house a few days later to meet with me. He said he understood why I did what I did, and that I had a right to do so. He agreed to let me sit in on all interviews with my children. He said that, going forward, if I used his words without his permission, he and I would have a personal problem (and here I am using his words without his permission, but he was referring to his words during interviews with my children). He said that in the future, our communication would be more careful. Overall, we’re definitely on good terms now.

A few days later, I received this email from a counselor in the stake presidency:

============================================

Hi copostmo,

Thank you for copying me on your recent emails to Bishop [XXXX].

I definitely respect your opinions.

I certainly agree that parents should primarily be responsible for teaching their children about all moral issues including sexuality.

I also feel that parents definitely have the right to choose whether or not to ask ecclesiastical leaders to meet with their children.

My perspective as a parent of older children is that I am deeply grateful to the priesthood leaders that have interviewed my children over the years for the way that they have helped to reinforce my teachings. They have also been mentors and advocates for my children and have encouraged them to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of regular bishopric interviews is obviously unique to our faith, but for my family it has been very helpful.

To me, the opinion of local sectarian ministers is interesting, but on these issues, I stand with living prophets and apostles who I believe are authorized representatives of the Savior Jesus Christ rather than the varying opinions of sincere yet unauthorized ministers of various other churches. Here are a few teachings from the apostles in our last general conference that I feel are helpful in considering the issues you addressed in your letters:

[He then included several excerpts from talks from the last general conference on chastity.]

I again invite you to read “Learning to Love the Book of Mormon” which was written by Dr. Michael Preece, a cardiologist, and a former mission president and LDS Humanitarian Services volunteer for many years. (This is one of the documents I sent you this last November. I'll resend it separately to your gmail address since it is a large file.)

I know that if you could regain your testimony of the Book of Mormon, it would change your life for the better.

We have been reading this as a family. There are so many evidences of the Book of Mormon that are explained, it has really been enlightening and inspiring for us.

I hope you will read this book.

Best wishes to you. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you or your family.

Sincerely,

[Pres. XXXX]

============================================

President [XXXX],

Thanks for your email. You are truly a generous man. I know you are very busy with family, work, and church responsibilities. I am humbled that you would take so much of your time, not just for this email, but emails you’ve sent in the past and the time you and I met together. I feel of your love and concern for me and for my family, and I am grateful.

Thank you for respecting my opinions, even if some of them differ from your own. I felt the same respect from you when we met several months ago. I, too, respect your beliefs and opinions, including regarding the effect that priesthood leaders have had in the lives of your children.

Thanks also for the quotes from the last general conference. I guess I should clarify, in case it wasn’t apparent from my earlier emails, that I believe in the importance of chastity. I believe that our children should live chaste lives; that they should be taught to have a proper attitude towards and respect of their sexuality, and that boundaries should be set to help them avoid making decisions that would potentially have negative long term consequences. I simply think that it is a parent’s responsibility to have such discussions with their children.

I agree with what you implied in your email—that if I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, this wouldn’t be an issue. I read much of “Learning to Love the Book of Mormon” when you sent it previously. I compared the evidences discussed in that book that support the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon with the many evidences against its divine authenticity. For me, there is no comparison. The evidences that the Book of Mormon is true are, for me, easily explained away, whereas, for me, there is no way around the evidences against the Book of Mormon.

But let’s just say that somehow I was able to regain my testimony of the Book of Mormon. You said that it would change my life for the better. I don’t think it would. If I regained my testimony of the Book of Mormon, and by extension Joseph Smith and the Church, it would cause all kinds of problems that had disappeared when I came to the conclusion that the Church was not true. I would have to deal with the cognitive dissonance created by questions such as:

• Why would God answer my prayer that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, but then answer prayers of other people, in the same manner that He answered my prayer, that their churches are true? After I lost my belief in the Church, why would God answer my prayer that the Church is not true in the same manner in which He had previously answered me that it was true?

• Why would God lead a group of people to the Americas, interact with them, give them scripture, but then remove all archeological, historical, linguistic, genetic, and other scientific evidence that such a people ever existed? Why is there so much evidence of other civilizations around the world during the same time period? Why would God only erase evidence of the Nephites and Lamanites and not the other civilizations that lived at the same time?

• Why would God create a worldwide flood, but then remove all evidence that such a flood ever occurred? Am I to simply dismiss all of the scientific advances made by humans because many of them conflict with Mormon Doctrine?

• Why would there be a book called “View of the Hebrews” that was written shortly before the Book of Mormon was published and has so many similarities with the Book of Mormon? Did God inspire that book as well?

• Why did God command so many prophets to make such a great effort to make metal plates, write on them, and hide them in the earth to be discovered by Joseph Smith over a thousand years later, when those plates were never used in the translation of the Book of Mormon? If Joseph didn’t need the plates, and only needed to look at a stone in a hat, what was the purpose of the plates in the first place?

• Why did God command His prophet to send one of his apostles on a mission and then marry the apostle’s wife while he was gone?

• Why did God command His prophet to try this with the wives of other Church leaders, only to deny everything when their wives rejected Joseph’s offer?

• Why did God command His prophet to convince a 14-year-old girl to marry him by promising salvation to her and her entire family?

• Why did God command His prophet to threaten another teenage girl with a loss of salvation if she didn’t marry him?

• Why did God reveal D&C 132 to His prophet, but then allow His prophet to completely disregard it in his implementation of plural marriage (e.g., marrying non-virgins, not asking for consent of his first wife, etc.)?

• Why did God send an angel with a flaming sword to command his prophet to marry a woman who had recently married someone else and was pregnant with his child?

• Why are there so many inconsistencies between Joseph’s different accounts of the First Vision? If this is such a momentous event (one of the most important in the history of the world according to Pres. Hinckley), why could Joseph not remember such significant details as how many personages appeared?

• Why did God’s prophet claim to translate papyri as an account written by the hand of Abraham when Egyptologists around the world say that the papyri have nothing to do with Abraham? Are all the Egyptologists in the world wrong?

• Why did God reveal to His prophet that He was actually Adam, but then reveal to a later prophet that the first prophet was wrong?

• Why would God reveal to His prophet that if a black person marries a white person, the only way for them to be forgiven of such a sin is for both of them to be killed, along with all of their children?

• Why would God reveal through one prophet that “the only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” but then allow one of His later prophets to say, “I condemn [polygamy] as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal.”?

• Why did God ban blacks from receiving the priesthood and from the saving ordinances of the temple for 130 years?

• Why would God command Joseph to change the wording of earlier revelations, adding verses about the appearances of John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John as if those appearances were mentioned in the earlier revelations, which they weren’t?

• Why would God need His children to learn secret oaths and handshakes in order to get into heaven?

• Why did God create humans 6000 years ago, but then allow the scientific evidence to indicate that humans have been on earth for over 100,000 years? If I can’t trust that scientific evidence, how can I trust other scientific advances and discoveries?

• Why did God inspire His prophet to say that masturbation leads to homosexuality? Why did He inspire another prophet to say that masturbation leads to insanity and premature death? Is the consensus of the professional mental health and medical communities wrong?

• Why would God inspire His prophet to say that it’s better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle?

The issues addressed by these questions caused me all kinds of inner turmoil and mental anguish when I was trying to reconcile these issues while still holding onto my testimony of the Church. The moment I came to the realization that the Church is not true, all of that turmoil and anguish and dissonance vanished. I am so much more at peace with my current belief in God. The God I believe in did not command his people to commit genocide or kill homosexuals or rape women. The God I believe in did not command Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to marry other men’s wives or discriminate against blacks. I am so much happier with my current belief in God. If I were to regain my testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Church, all the problems noted above would return.

When my heart tells me that denying homosexuals the right to marry is wrong, I don’t have to go against my conscience because that thinking isn’t in line with what the leaders of the Church say. I don’t have to tell my daughter that if someone tries to rape her, she should fight to the death. And I don’t have to allow a bishop to ask my children whether or not they are masturbating or to describe in detail their sexual transgressions.

I realize that the Church brings you and your family much happiness. I don’t doubt that, and I respect your beliefs. I hope you believe me that I am so much happier outside of the Church, and I would be miserable if I were to start believing again that the Church is true.

Thank you again for your email. I realize that you could have simply dismissed me as a disgruntled apostate. The fact that you took the time to write your email shows that you still care about me, which means a lot. I am an apostate, but I don’t feel disgruntled. I’m just trying to navigate the tricky waters of living with my new belief system with a wife and children who believe something very different. Leaders like you make it easier to do so.

copostmo

Thanks copostmo for the effort that you are taking. I just wanted to laugh at something the Counselor in the Stake Presidency said.


"To me, the opinion of local sectarian ministers is interesting, but on these issues, I stand with living prophets and apostles who I believe are authorized representatives of the Savior Jesus Christ rather than the varying opinions of sincere yet unauthorized ministers of various other churches."

The whole thing is beyond the pale, but particularly the idea that these "unauthorized" ministers are "sectarian" and he is not. Even as a TBM I viewed LDS inc as a parochial entity at best. Here he is proving me right.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "To me, the opinion of local sectarian ministers
> is interesting, but on these issues, I stand with
> living prophets and apostles who I believe are
> authorized representatives of the Savior Jesus
> Christ rather than the varying opinions of sincere
> yet unauthorized ministers of various other
> churches."

That's the part which stood out to me as well. Do they really believe that Jesus would sit down with the youth and ask them if they masturbate?

Wow... Just wow... I have followed your story with great interest as I remember sitting in the Bishop's office full of shame and guilt trying to figure out how to answer questions that should never have been put to me in that type of situation. The dammage it caused me lasts to this day some 25 years later.

The effort you have put in to protecting your children is nothing short of amazing. I'm glad things are working out and that, hopefully, they will stick to the agreement and you'll be able to keep your kids from experiencing some of the horrors that I had to sit through as a young teenager who was already confused and just trying to figure things out.

I hope that the Admins archive this as it is a great story of what a parent can do to help their kids if they stick to their guns.

And, what an amazing response to the Stake Pres. Counselor, you were honest and respectful without being argumentative.

Really, thank you for these posts.

"did not command his people to commit genocide or kill homosexuals or rape women."

Well, Amen to that, for pete's sake! Boggles the mind that we can't all at least start out by agreeing to that much.

IMO, you're doing quite a job of walking a crazy tightrope. Good for you.

There are very definite no-nos about questioning authority in the LDS Church. They're not used to it and it really rocks their boat when someone dares to do it.

The only way this practice will stop will be if parents dare to stand up for the rights of their children.

It shows you how child-like the LDS Church keeps its members if the Church can wrestle authority for their children right out from under them like that, and the members will just sit and take it like obedient little sheep.

Wow! Loved it all especially your response to the counselor in the stake presidency. Not only do you have to put all those things on the shelf but you also have to sit through church with a bunch of morons that don't know any of that stuff, who talk about J.S. and the prophets and apostles like they're the most righteous holy men on earth, its just too much.

I think that even if a parent does has a testimony of the BoM, that parent should still sit in on bishop interviews of their minor children. It is high time for the invasive questioning of youth to stop. And that will only happen if parents consistently forbid it.

It's interesting that the bishop refers to "sincere but unauthorized" ministers of other churches. Who does he think kept Christianity going for the 1800 years before Joseph Smith happened along? Oh right, those "unauthorized" priests and ministers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2013 02:12PM by summer.

Someday your children will appreciate the sincere labor and effort that you have done to protect them.

So many TBM's take such pride in their 'priesthood' that is systematically 'given' to them by their fathers. The reality is that you have given your children, and thereby future generations a much more powerful gift. The gift of knowing that it is okay to question authority, and the experience of seeing a parent really stand up for their children.

Good job!

(stands while clapping)

As someone who was questioned inappropriately as a teen on several occasions, who felt forced to lie to save myself from embarrassment and negative judgment, then dealt with a lot of pointless shame and guilt over feeling like a liar and fear of someone who never should have had 'authority' over me in the first place:

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You are doing a wonderful, brave, important thing for your children's well being. You're engaged in a power struggle: LD$ corporate flunkies aren't used to being challenged. I can't commend you enough. Your preparation in presenting them with solid information from a vast landscape of equally 'authorized' persons in ministry, and your willingness to clearly communicate boundaries as well as your expectations for their behavior is inspiring.

You are fighting the good fight. I am in awe of the time and effort you've put into this. Your kids have a great dad.

Incidentally, I've been going to various liberal protestant denominations for several decades since leaving TSCC, most recently an episcopal parish. The stake president's responses about 'unauthorized' and 'sectarian' ministers cracked me up. I can easily say out of all the places I've worshipped, mormonism's twisted notion of ministry, faith and worship wins the grand prize for extreme sectarianism and scarily misplaced notions of pseudo-authority.

You are too kind to the bishop, and the only one who should have a personal problem is you. If some asshat thought it would be OK to ask my children sexual questions just because his church told him to, I would hate that guy forever.

Shame on anyone who thinks this kind of questioning of youths is acceptable!!!!

Good work! I love this thread. Notice how when they are losing the written discussion, they try to change the venue to face-to-face discussion with you. You can tell they don't like going "on the record".

>>>the opinion of local sectarian ministers is interesting, but on these issues, I stand with living prophets and apostles who I believe are authorized representatives of the Savior Jesus Christ rather than the varying opinions of sincere yet unauthorized ministers of various other churches.<<<<

You really should follow up with the Christian ministers and let them know this is what the COJCOLDS thinks of them.

+1

Good job sticking up for your kids no matter what. Something that bothers me so much about your story and others' stories on here is how much the Mormon church does not care about children, and people in general. But especially children, who are weaker members of society. For a church that claims to be the only true church, they make it seem like children come last to God in being raised respectfully and lovingly. The church image comes first and foremost, before its members, before doing the right thing, before giving charitably.

Your email to the counselor in the Stake Presidency was beautiful. Maybe you could give us a follow up, if he sends one to you. I suspect he is not a careful or deep thinker to write you what he did, so it may have fallen on deaf eyes. But you have outlined the problems and how your concerns lead you to answers that can clear your conscience and are actually true. Good luck in dealing further with church leaders. Too bad more parents don't feel as loving or respectful of their children as you do so they can grow up with a healthy sense of right and wrong and know when boundaries are crossed.

Charlotte Darwin, your reply under the "Interaction with stake presidency re: email sent to Christian ministers" thread inspired me to write the following:

Deaf eyes and blind ears? Good call! That explains a lot. Come to think about it, the only body parts that TBMs how know how to use properly are their genitalia. But that's only partially true. They believe that using one's own personal genitalia to generate pleasure when one is alone with oneself with no possibility of a conception is sinful and dirty.

Maybe Prophet Monson should give a conference talk to teach the members what EYES are for and what EARS are for and what a BRAIN is for (and another popular use for GONADS).

Of course, that will happen when Jesus comes again or the sun burns out, whichever happens first.

Copostmo,is this whole ordeal making you think any more about removing your children from this 'church'?

I would love nothing more than to get my family out of the Mormon Church. However, I can't force them, and right now they are firmly entrenched in Mormonism.

This is some damn fine parenting going on here.

You, sir, are an inspiration.

I just cannot comprehend how it is that Mrs. Copostmo doesn't see how incredibly inappropriate this line of questioning is, and how it can lead to discovery of sexual behaviors your children may not even be aware of at such tender ages. There's so much I wish I had never been made to know, all learned in the bishop's office. I could've lived my entire life without knowing these things, and been perfectly happy, not to mention remaining innocent of things best left to discover with a loving partner.

I wish I had a father like you, who would stand against so much pressure to protect my heart. So much fear, guilt, pain and emotional agony could have,and now will be, avoided because you are exercising your god-given right to protect your children, which supercedes any authority they might think they have.

Cheers for all your work and effort to protect your children and their innocence!
Happy father's day! You really deserve the day!!

Thank you!

"The local sectarian ministers"...all vastly more qualified than douche-bag stake president.

copostmo, we may be able to incorporate some of your battle in the "Bishops Interview Video" that will be produced.

The production team has followed this thread. If you want to share with us any views you may have about this production, please email me at tomphillips@romneysfaith.com

The RFM thread about the video can be seen at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,923688,923959#msg-923959 and continued at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,924067,924145#msg-924145

Tom

What a wonderful example of how best to deal with zealot leaders who dutifully allow themselves to be exploited in such an arrogant manner by an abusive and authoritarian church.
Your children are very fortunate indeed to have a dad who cares so much for their welfare and wellbeing. I am also amazed by your superhuman tolerance of their obvious abuse of power and privelege.
You are fortunate indeed to be dealing with two seemingly decent church leaders who seem willing to listen and to be influenced to some extent by what you have to say.
Unfortunately, for many of us, we have/had to deal with bishops and stake presidents who are extreme orthodox, who are very reluctant to listen to reason, and who consider themselves the ultimate judges over their congregations. As far as they are concerned, their word is final and is to be respected by all, regardless of any other perfectly reasonable petition. The outcome for many of us can be so very different and in many cases, catastrophic for impressionable young individuals.
Personally, I would never allow LDS church leaders, any jurisdiction over my children concerning such personal and intimate matters, and if they were foolish enough to do so, without my knowledge, they would be facing serious legal implications.
There are too many fanatical religious leaders among the LDS church who get great personal satisfaction in the power that is granted to them by equally religious fanatics further up the LDS chain of command.
They should to be exposed for the crazy and despotic nutjobs they are and for the great psychological harm they do to so many vulnerable young people.
You deserve great credit for such diplomacy and patience and your effective counselling with them on the serious problems that are continually exposing the LDS church for the complete and utter fraud it most certainly is.

Agreed. The OP is a commendable parent and the church is reprehensible in this abuse.

The public will be made more aware and, as with blacks and the priesthood, naked touching and blood oaths in the temple, the church will be forced to change.

Production of the video is starting.

Great, hopefully there will have a Latino or Polynesian element as well.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56138958-78/duran-church-girl-document.html.csp

It seems some states regard the crimes even more serious when there is a relationship of special trust such as a Mormon bishop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2013 04:40AM by gentlestrength.

I heard tales of some leaders recording the interviews and masturbating to them afterwards.

Why the hell not. It is a Sex Cult.

What Would Josef Do?

I AM AMAZED AT THEIR SELF APPOINTED ATHORITY! If I wore a tiarra and carried a septure it wouldnt make me queen! While I dont concider ministers infallable. Its my understanding that they attend a divinity school. Learn hebrew & Greek and know the scriptures. Not some guy w/a bussiness degree that gets picked cause hes popular! Geeze.

Wow. Just wow. Those were some treacherous waters you just navigated: A spouse with different beliefs, two teenagers (always a wild card!) and two men who think they speak for god, and a very touchy subject. Many people might have silently fumed, unable to handle the situation, or others might have turned it into a catastrophe. You handled the entire situation with grace, diplomacy, and strength while providing all of us with information and inspiration. Well done.

I wanted to second this post. Wow. Just wow.
Well done!

I'm very proud of you for keeping a very cool head in these matters.

I for one am extremely pissed off by the attitudes of these fucking asshole fuckheads going around thinking that they are The Lord's anointed, charged by god & Jesus to go around judging underage kids on morality issues. That they think that they have such a right to do that makes me sick. I was asked these types of questions for years. Of course I lied. But the thing is that I was lead to believe that all churches do the same thing. That all kids & teens in all churches are asked about moral issues all the damned time, or how else would all the different church leaders know how to punish the so called sinners or not.

I'm just really fucking angry right now. Doesn't matter that I've been out of the cult for 12 years. Doesn't matter that I haven't been asked these types of questions in well over 15 years. I'm still fucking angry about it, virulently.

It just goes to show mormons don't play well with others.

From Summer's post -- "It's interesting that the bishop refers to "sincere but unauthorized" ministers of other churches. Who does he think kept Christianity going for the 1800 years before Joseph Smith happened along? Oh right, those "unauthorized" priests and ministers."

If it wasn't for the KJV of the bible what would Joseph Smith have plagiarized from?

"And it came to pass that I the Lord didst inspire my humble servant, Joseph, to part the sacred pages of his Holy Bible, the version thereof being the version of the King known upon the records of the realm as James, and that my servant shouldst behold the words printed thereupon and that he shouldst speak aloud the words of the Holy Scriptures unto his scribe that the words mightest be recorded as if I had revealed these words unto Joseph myself, that the bulk of the Book of Mormon mightest be enhanced and appear even more miraculous, impressive and scriptural sounding unto the ears and intellect of the hapless dupes my servant wouldst later convince to believe that the work coming forth by the power of his inventive imagination mightest be embellished with an installment of actual scripture written in the style of my vineyard in the Land England, and the century thereof not being the 14th century or the 15th century, nor it being the 17th century thereof, but rather the number of the century of the language being the 16th century after the reckoning of the passing of years marked by the pivotal event of my own flesh and blood being offered as a supreme sacrifice to balance the eternal scales of justice and righteousness that all mankind might be saved from their ways of sin and error forevermore, also including the sin of my servant, Joseph, who hath devised a truly elaborate scheme and machination that hath totally impressed even the Lord Thy God with what lengths my servant, Joseph, hath employed for the goal and purpose of knowing dozens of my daughters in a Holy sense, yeah, even knowing my daughters in the Biblical sense thereof. Amen."

You are one brave, gutsy parent! I made it clear to my bishop years ago that my kids weren't to be interviewed unless I was in the room with them or they were older teens and wanted to meet with the bishop in private. I also taught my kids to say, "This topic makes me uncomfortable and it's private. My parents have covered this with me." My then 11-year-old son used this response. I was so proud of him!

Have you considered writing an article or pitching the story idea to a newspaper reporter at the Salt Lake Trib or another publication? It's a story that should get out.

You are an awesome parent!

Maybe it's just me, but you're trying to teach a cat how to sit. They just won't be able to do it. You need a dog for that.

Arguing religion with a bishop is like asking an idiot to help you write your dissertation on genetics. You'll be disappointed and waste your time, and you still have to write the darn thing.

You don't believe in the Mormon church anymore, you have your reasons, he still believes. You have "boundaries" that you'd like your kids to stay within when an older pervert interviews them on their "sexual purity". It sounds like they will respect your boundaries. Isn't it all good now, sortuv? :)

"If you just had a testimony, you wouldn't have a problem with us abusing your children!"

And this, this is just a great summary of what they want from you! +1

Hi Copostmo,
Great post! And what an inspiration for us all!

Here are some questions I had while reading your post:

1. When you were a TBM, would you have been okay with the Bishop & SP asking your children intimate questions? It seems to me that even TBMs today should object to this horrible practice. After all, TBM or not, you're parents with responsibilities.

2. What does Mrs. copostmo think about your list of questions? My thought is that if she were also no longer TBM, you'd clear up another BIG batch of trouble for your family.

Great thread...and it comes from a sincere place.

Someone else said it best though. Could you imagine Jesus sitting one of the 'little ones' on his lap, and asking them if they masturbate?

If this image of the 'holy one' disturbs you, then a fallible man has no business posing the question either.