Hey everyone - I previously posted indicating that my recently reverted TBM DW is open to looking at material that is critical of the church if I agree to move to Utah within 6 months to 1 year. Here's my original thread; thanks so much for all of the feedback on this previous thread.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,929645,929645#msg-929645

She amended the deal and said I would also have to read the BOM. Okay fine, I'll do that. In addition, she said that any claims she finds, she would investigate with any and all TBM resources she has available; she specifically mentioned her very TBM brother who graduated from an ivy league law school and is a very smart guy. I was fine with that too; he probably has a spin cycle built in somewhere. I told her that's fine as long as she doesn't give the prophets a pass...like when I shared the Lucy Walker story with her (http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm) her response was he's human and made mistakes.

Basically, I'm down to 2 items that I want to share with her but I need to pick one. Which do you think I should go with?

1. http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf - I've skimmed through this and it was pretty good. I don't know if it will have the detail of Grant Palmer's book, but it looks like it might have additional material in it that is not in Palmer's books such as Adam-God theory.

2. An Insider's View of Mormon Origins - The consensus on another post I had where I asked if I could pick one book to share with my TBM spouse was that this was the one. Here's that thread for reference - http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,928852. I like the fact that he does take things from a position of not being anti and it sounds like he provides a lot of details and references. Overall, it sounds like it's a well researched book.

Any thoughts on picking one over the other? Thanks so much in advance.

I'm also considering this book:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Joseph/dp/156085085X/ref=cm_rdp_product

I'll see if I can get her to read two.

"In Sacred Loneliness" is an interesting read. Todd Compton tries to maintain objectivity, with the result that it can become stultifying at times, even though the terrible stories are in fact very compelling.

I read the chapters on the women who were central to my discussions with my wife. Reading the whole thing takes some willpower and time that is beyond me at the time.

All of that said, it's a very good read for somebody who's been raised on the idea that polygamy occurred because the women -- particularly the elderly, the widowed, and the impoverished -- needed to be taken care of. Most of the women JS took were young, in some cases wealthy, and many were already married to someone else.

...it won't work well.

Zina Jacobs' story is a litmus test of sorts especially for Mormon women, wifes particularly.

If your wife like mine can store Zina's story on a self somewhere, you will have as hard a time as I am having. I don't want to move back to Utah but she does. I will resist moving as long as I can. I know that out here there are people who see Moronism as crazy JW-like bother people religion almost cult.

In Utah, the wards will be the wards of an insane asylum and only the people with an "eye to see" the scam are the sane types and all others are lifers who think that "The World" is the crazy place.

Good Luck.

I really like the "Keystone of Mormonism" by Azra Evans.

That's interesting, not one I have heard of before; but the reviews on Amazon are strong. Does it come across as very anti?

I think my key criteria for a book are these:

1. A good survey of the various issues with the church
2. Softly introduces the issues so that they cannot be dismissed as anti-mormon right off the bat
3. My wife is very independent and a self-proclaimed feminist. Anything that speaks to someone like that would be useful as well.

It didn't come across as anti to me. It came across with the author being heartbroken that it wasn't true.

That book got both my husband and I out of mormonism.

I think we have a winner...thank you Fidget.

You're welcome. Good luck.

I think you are signing your life away with this lopsided deal.

Yeah, my hope...and I know hope is a scary thing...is that her reading these things will make her want to leave the church.

If we live in Utah as non-Mormons I can live with that because at least we are on the same page. I would prefer living in Utah on the same page then to living in Seattle in disagreement.

stop deluding yourself.You will NOT avoid disagreement by moving to Utah.
In fact, moving there will most likely make your marriage worse.

Mormons in Utah will badger you day and night.
Chances are high your wife is hoping to turn you into Peter Priesthood if she can just get you to move close to them. This is a disaster waiting to happen.

Delusional or not, it's the only play I have...my alternative is to just let her live her happy Mormon life in Seattle and eventually try to raise our twin girls as Mormons...I couldn't live with myself if I let that happen.

My favorite anti-Mormon book: The Book of Mormon.

Point out that Lehi's dream is IDENTICAL to Joseph Smith's
father's dream that happened in 1811.

Point out that there are all kinds of amazingly precise and
accurate prophecies about things that Joseph Smith would have
known, leading right up until Joseph Smith's time. And them
it gets all vague and conditional. Point out all the KJV
quotes it contains--even to the point of quoting books that
supposedly had not been written yet, and KJV translaition
errors. Oh, and if the bigshot Lawyer TBM brother comes back
with the old "the Urim and Thummim gave Joseph's mind the
ideas while he used the language he was familiar with to
express them," then point out to him that all the talk about
"chiasmus" and "Hebraisms" is baloney then.

Point out that the epistemology in Alma 32 is designed to get
people to fool themselves. It is exactly what the scientific
method was created to avoid.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,898602,920981

BUT BUT BUT chiasmus in the Book of MORmON is proof that the Book of MORmON is true !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BQrl4EZ07Y

Why wouldn't your wife want to know the truth? Sounds like you're playing 'Let's Make A Deal' and the grand prize is a donkey and a fart sound.

Tell her the cult was founded on Adultery and if she goes back you're getting a couple of girlfriends. Why not? The cult is true so Adultery is A-OK. Throw in a couple of widows and you're gold.

LOL, I actually tried that approach when she first told me she was going back to the church...In anger I said 'maybe I should join the church too because than you will have to listen to everything I say and you can only get to Heaven through me AND I'm going to get all these additional women in Heaven...win, win, win'

She didn't take that well.

diablo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Tell her the cult was founded on Adultery and if
> she goes back you're getting a couple of
> girlfriends. Why not? The cult is true so
> Adultery is A-OK. Throw in a couple of widows and
> you're gold.

Diablo you are missing an important point. The cult was
founded not just on adultery, but on adultery and LYING about
it. He's not supposed to tell his wife about the adultery and
if anyone blows the whistle on him he's supposed to lie about
it and call the truth-teller vile names. Only then will he be
following the example of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

When I was in Seminary, I "read" the BoM VERY quickly (like less than a month). How? I didn't "read" it like the rest of the world "reads". I "looked at every word".

Physically, the acts are the same - but mentally, there is a HUGE difference!!!

I would not be surprised if your wife tries to do this. Maybe she won't - I don't know her at all. But it seems a TBM thing to do.

So...maybe when you're reading the BoM as part of your agreement, you can *STUDY* it. Take specific notes; timelines, lessons, important information. I'm not a great study-er, so maybe someone here can offer better suggestions on going about it.

But my thought is that if she sees what REAL studying looks like, she might be "inspired" to do more that "fake it" when following through on her end of the deal.

Yeah, good point...I'm kind of taking a leap of faith that she actually reads these books.

You can always get out of the deal.

You just say "you haven't prayed enough", "you have to have an open heart" or "if you really read Grant Palmers book you would know the truthfulness of the fraud" or "you know it’s not true in your heart but your head is doing the talking” or “you haven’t read it with real intent”.

I think you get the drift.

First, you say that one of your criterion is that the book is a "A good survey of the various issues with the church." In Sacred Loneliness doesn't really do this does it, since it only talks about Joseph Smith's polygamy?

Second, I think it is a great deal for you to read the BoM if she reads one of yours! However, I would either do a word count or page count to make sure you are both reading approximately the same number of pages/material. An Insiders View of Mormon Origins coupled with something else like the CES Letter might work. Or have her read half of ISL and the CES Letter.

And tell her you would rather her study these materials along side official Mormon sources as well as discuss them with other Mormons on the condition they don't try and talk you out of reading the book you give her. I know already they are going to discourage her research and tell her these things do not matter any way.

One more thing, if you by chance don't have her read the CES letter, then print it off and leave it lying around the house. Maybe her curiosity will get the best of her and she will browse it when you are not around. Its such a good and easy read. Its also written from the perspective of a sincere and struggling Mormon so it doesn't come off as simply anti-Mormon. She might be able to identify with the author more.

I ended up going with the KeyStone of Mormonism as the first book I was going to have her look at.

I don't want to push her too much by asking her to also read the CES letter, but I like the passive way of introducing her to it that you mention.

I was concerned because I noticed on our Amazon.com account that she has already ordered a book called 'Offendors for a Word' that is meant to be an apologetic resources...I guess that's fine since part of the deal was that she would be able to investigate any and all 'anit' claims within Mormon resources

Sorry, but she is getting way too much from this deal. If she's asking for all of this, then you need to have her reading a lot more than one book as part of the deal. Also, have her read the BOM with you so that you can discuss the issues with her. You can then point out every issue as you go through it (Biblical translation errors recurring in the BOM, Bible/apocrypha stories recreated and embellisshed, Joseph Smith Sr.'s dreams/stories being used in 1 Nephi as Lehi's visions, etc.)

Also, make sure she reads the books before making the actual moving plans. I'd wanted to move to Utah my whole life, and had tried to make it work a few times. As soon as we realized the church was a fraud, that all changed. Your wife could very well have a change of heart as well if/when she discovers the truth. However, if the desire is more to get close to family, you still might end up having to fulfill your end of the bargain.

Yeah, good point and I'm okay with that...if this whole thing backfires on me and she reads all the books, wants to remain Mormon and still wants to move to Utah...well, I guess that's the 'calculated' part of the calculated risk I'm taking here.

I'm optimistic in the truth and in my belief in her as rational being that gives me hope I guess.

Where you are committing to read the Book of Mormon you may be able two kill to birds with one stone. You could read the Book of Mormon and then discuss concerns you have with its text. Here's my notes so far on the problems:

http://www.mormonprobe.com/bomcommentary.htm

You wouldn't need to review this list with her directly - just discuss these issues with her.

Of course MormonThink.com has lots more information on problems with the text of the Book of Mormon. As does Richard Packham's site. If you can get her questioning the veracity of the text of the BoM it will be game over.

I also highly recommend wivesofjosephsmith.org based on Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness - also excellent. Reading the actually biographies of the women JS married is a powerful experience to make you go - ick.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 04:10PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Nice good call...another poster said that I should point out the issues, but unfortunately I don't know them...this will be a great resource for me...Thanks!

Also check out wivesofjosephsmith.org. This is based on Todd Compton's very thorough research. For me the actually stories of the women/teenagers screwed up by Joseph's polygamy had a deep impact.

Check out: Zita, Lucy Walker, Eliza Partridge & Helen Kimball among others.

Also if watching a video is more her speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 04:03PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Make sure you're reasonably familiar with them before you start reading the BOM so that you can really hit each issue well. Oncoming Storm's resource is a good one. While your not having your wife read "An Insider's view...", that doesn't mean you can't. It's a wonderful resource and will prepare you to discuss many issues. I think I read at one point that some Ex-Mormon was making an indexed version of the BOM that would show footnotes as you read helping you to identify the issues, sources, etc.

Perhaps in your homework, you should "notice" at the appropriate point in the book that some characters took off with words of Isaiah before they had been written. I may have picked the wrong anachronism.

Somebody help me out here! There is a glaring anachronism where the folks in the submarines go across the sea with some wisdom from the bible... That hadn't even been written when they left!

Maybe that is easily justifiable in a TBM mind, but maybe it would get her thinking?

Edit: looks like I posted at the same time as others with the same idea. Which one or two are the most glaring errors that might stand out. Not necessarily the KJV errors included in bom, that could be too "nit picky", down to semantics...(eyeroll) I mean big glaring issues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 04:07PM by WinksWinks.

You must really love your DW if you are willing to read the BoM again. I would as soon submit to water boarding. We are rooting for ya!

This will actually be my first time reading it...I'm a nevermo

If she is solid in her belief system, and is not really interested in changing her mind, you may not be able to make any headway getting her to understand your position.

There are many people who are satisfied with their religious beliefs and never, in their entire life even consider challenging them or changing their mind. It's just not an option for them.

I was married for 50 plus years to that kind of religious mind set. Impossible to challenge or change. Not interested.

You may have the same kind of mind set in your situation.

If that is so, I found the best course of action, in my case, considering my investment in our marriage, home, relationship, children, grand children, etc. was to accept his rights to his beliefs and respect and honor them (after all, I knew them well and believed them for sometime also!), just as I wanted mine respected and honored. It would not be a case of: right and wrong, opening someone else's eyes, etc. as those were never going to give me any credibility.

So. I left it alone. You may need to consider that position and make the relationship and the person and your love much more important than the differences in beliefs. In my case, I made it about "Love is something you do" and that saved everything we had invested in our lives together.

In my case, I let go of the notion that he needed to hear my point of view, needed to inform him of what I had learned, and just shut up about it. I kept my beliefs to myself. No need to bother him about it. He was satisfied with his "spiritual witness" and that was fine with me.

In the course of our lifetimes, most have left the LDS Church, have beliefs that they are happy with in their individual lives.
It's all accepted as a personal right and not a matter of discussion, or something to challenge, or be concerned about or to share with anyone else.

I continued to live by some basics: love one another, forgive everyone everything every time, treat others the way I want to be treated. Very simple, common sense principles that build relationships rather than destroy them.

The most powerful thing I did about religious views, is to respect and honor everyone else's beliefs, no matter what they were.
I let go of any need to be a "right fighter", challenge any one else's religious beliefs, or insist that they listen to me and why I changed my mind, removed any negativity from my thinking about anything.

You will figure out what you need or want to do.
My best wishes to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 04:21PM by SusieQ#1.

That is a lame ass deal for you. You are giving up tons of things just to get her to read one book. Knowing it isn't my place, and I apologize in advance if this offends you, but... She is taking serious advantage of you. You married a woman whom you love dearly, for whom you would do anything. She married you, and while she loves you, she doesn't trust or respect you, she is having an affair with her church, leaving you, the cuckolded husband on the outside to watch the relationship. She seems only as invested in you, as you are invested in her church. Her loyalty to you appears to be conditional on your agreement with her. This is not real love, it is a huge red flag. If she doesn't change, I foresee huge problems in the future of your marriage.

I definitely like the idea of reading the BoM as another tool to point out the problems in Mormonism. If I were you, I'd read the BoM on the following website. Highlight your BoM with the notes and discuss them with your wife.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/bom/1ne/1.html

And read the following books to supplement your BoM reading:

* http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech5b.htm
*New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology by Brent Metcalfe
*Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon by Jerald & Sandra Tanner
*Quest for the Gold Plates: Thomas Stuart Ferguson’s Archaeological Search for the Book of Mormon by Stan Larson
*American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormon by Dan Vogel and Brent Lee Metcalfe

She doesn't have to know you are reading these too, but take notes and point out things you see as problematic.

But make sure you are not argumentative. Sound sincere.