So, in this previous thread I asked everyone if I could pick one book to provide to a TBM spouse that she agreed to read. Based on the thread it sounds like the book I should select is An Insider's View of Mormon Origins and here's the thread for reference - http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,928852

I didn't provide the complete story though. Her reading this book is part of a deal I made with her. I told her that if I take a job in Utah and move our family there that she would have to read some material that is critical of the church. She is actually thinking about the deal right now and if she takes it we could potentially move to Utah within a month or so. Her family lives there and she has always wanted to go back. We currently live in Seattle.

I was curious to hear people's opinions on this deal. The concern of course is that being in the mother land will actually push her more into the church even if she does read some 'anti' material on the side. My thought is if we live in Salt Lake County instead of Utah County we should be fairly protected from the very heavy Mormon influence.

Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts on if this is a good deal or not and any potential issues and pitfalls you can see with going this route.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2013 12:56PM by marriedtoexmo.

Potential pitfall: "Welcome to Utah!!"

Biggest "pitfall" I can think of...and maybe a few other words that would be censored...
(and yes I have lived here most of my life)

If she agrees, maybe it will open her mind, maybe it won't. Either things remain the way they are, or improve in that respect.

There is a lot more outside pressure in the MORmON State to comply with the TSCC than in other areas. No way to tell if that will be good in the long run or not.

Good point. She was out of the church for 7 years and just went back within the last 2-3 months after the birth of our twin daughters.

It's possible that getting back into the morg and seeing how they try to control your lives will actually push her away from it...reverse psychology of sorts...she's a very independent person and I believe would actually lean agnostic if it wasn't for external influences.

Have you ever been to the feminist mormon housewives blog? It's a group of mormon women publically trying to work through the cog-dis of being two incompatible things. They are pro-LDS for the most part, with a lean towards outright heresy. It was my gateway drug to RFM, and shined a light on a lot of troubling issues with the church that I hadn't considered before (but then became troubled by).

Anyhow, I feel like it might be a helpful site you guys. It doesn't seem like you have much of an open dialogue on religion at the moment, but maybe you can steer the discussion to how religion is going to affect your baby girls as they grow up. Do you really want your daughters to be taught that they can only come to god through men? That they should have no voice or authority in the organization running their life? That their spirituality will always be secondary to that of men? That their worth will be judged by what they wear? That their worth lies almost solely in their "chastity", and not in the divinity of their souls?

Remember, if you move to Utah, you will be surrounded by the many negative influences of mormon culture, whether you are mormon or not.

Oh no, I haven't checked out that blog...I'll send that her way as well..I think she will probably like that better because it sounds like its more balanced than so-called 'anti' materials

If you go to their "features" tab, on the homepage, there is a section called "forgotton women" - it's a whole series of blogs about Joseph Smith's other wives... that's what sent me down the rabbit hole. (I was like, wait, how many wives did he have??? I didn't even know he had other wives!)

Your deal is risky. You could be stuck in Utah, with her family. She could read the book out of obligation, not even truly considering the points being made. Mormons I know could read a book like that with their eyes closed if you know what I mean. My mother, for example, has the biggest shelf in history and has plenty of room for any books you have.

Part of your deal should be that the reading of the book includes honest deep discussion about the issues raised by the facts presented. She has to tell you how she can dismiss the facts and why God would expect her to, other than "some old men said so."
That's the only way I would make the deal.

Yeah, regarding your second point, that is kind of part of the deal. I told not just to read it, but investigate it, ask her bishop and really dig into the issues.

I think asking her for a discussion is a good idea.

You're right that TBM's are experts at cognitive dissonance though...I brought up the Adam-God theory with her and I got the classical, 'he's just a man' response.

Hope you are not raising children.

If so, I vote no. There is damage done in school which cannot be fixed at home.

Imagine yourself as a vulnerable middle school boy or girl going through your awkward phase of wondering if you are going to be cool or not and finding that you are excluded from virtually all the social activities your friends are excited about because you are in the ward but not of it.

And your parents are people that their parents would lose their temple recommends for being friends with you.

My ten year old said to me, "Why do you always have to be different, Mom? Most of the world is Mormon after all." That was in Salt Lake County.


Anagrammy

Man, that paints a very scary picture...that's my worry...my worry also is that if she reads the material and sticks to the church anyways...then my twin daughters (age 4 months) might be victims of 'worthiness interviews' where an old (most likely white) guy will ask them about their deep, dark sexual secrets.

I just moved to Utah from out of state (a very liberal state) about a year ago to help my TBM family. HUGE MISTAKE! And I can tell you first hand, the public schools are a nightmare as far as the mormon kids running the roost and shunning non members/inactives. Your proposal could work, but if she's going to be near TBM family again, that's what will ultimately bring things down. They will pester her to no end to return to church.

Anagrammy is right. I live in Utah, SL County. I am steadily working towards my goal of moving to Seattle. I have a 13yo daughter who is involved in TSCC because of her father. It's hard to get her to think for herself when everyone around her is drinking the same kool-aid. I can't help but think this would be a grave mistake for your twins. Your deal should include you having equal time to teach the twins the truth rather than letting them be brainwashed.

Don't do it. I'm from Seattle, lived in Utah for a while, and got out. Once you are in the morg with family, she will definitely be sucked in. If you don't conform, you have little in the way of social network, kids' friends, etc. My totally inactive brother had a slight reawakening when his baby was born, had her blessed, but eventually went back to where he was before and is an atheist now and won't let his daughter near the church. He didn't have to do any reading for that to happen. I'd stay in a normal city!

This doesn't seem like a fair deal to me..

Her side of the deal:

Open her hand. Grasp book. Read book to placate or please husband. Digest and appreciate information or regurgitate it as false.


Your side of the deal:

Packing up house. Purchase moving van. Disconnecting from friends, business associates, and other old connections in your present location. Negotiating with new employer. Finding a new house. Qualifying for loan for new house. Taking the risk that you new employer has heavy LDS leanings. Close proximity with her family and lack of boundaries or privacy that may follow. Running the risk that she may become more enmeshed into LDS church. Your marriage may become strained because of pressure put on her to bring her apostate husband back to the "truth".

Time to sit down and truly discuss the way you both feel about the church, a potential move or job offer, extended family dynamics, and the future religious/secular education of your twins. What do you both expect and desire from one another?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2013 01:37PM by senoritalamanita.

The other bad part of the deal is that you could be in Utah with both you AND your wife leaving the church. The job could be short when she wants to get out of Motown.

I could live with it working out that way....

My ex-mo daughter is just biding her time until her youngest graduates from high school (3 more years) so that she can move to Oregon.

My other daughter is in California and life outside is much easier there.

Being a part mormon kid can be really hard in Utah. The neighbors either try to activate or shun depending on their whim.

If you love to ski and can spend time on the slopes out of the inversion, it might be okay. Winter here can be long and depressing.

If I didn't have a business that can't be moved and an 85 year old mother to care for, I'd be anywhere but here.

Think twice! Good Luck.

I wouldn't uproot the family, just to get her to read that book. There are no magic bullets when it comes to getting people to leave the church. People wake up and see the truth when they are ready. You know the old phrase: "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

If she's willing to reevaluate her beliefs, she'll read it because she interested and ready. If she's not ready, the book might plant some seeds, but they won't grow. But they'll be there, dormant.

Your kids are still so young, that I don't think I'd worry too much about the brainwashing. Just figure out if Utah is where you want to be, and maybe set a timetable to move back out of utah. For some Mormons, moving to Utah drives them OUT of the church. I think it just depends on the personality and how they react to peer pressure, pretense, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, meddling, boundary crossing.

Good luck with your decision.

Another thought: Maybe wait a while, get her to read the book, stay where you are for a few more months before moving. It may take a while for the book to settle in, and she may not WANT to be stuck in Utah after that.

We left the church, just a few months after moving back to Utah. I wish I'd figured out it was a fraud before we moved here.

I'm curious, what was it about being a Mormon in Utah that drives people out of the church?

when THINK there aren't contrasting opinions in the community.

Mormons in Utah tend to assume that EVERYBODY is Mormon, and that they all agree (or SHOULD agree) on everything when it comes to politics (alcohol rules, for example), child rearing, religious practice. They tend to get in other people's business, making comments on what other people wear, church attendance, what they drink (Mountain Dew? Oh MY!), and if they are following all the Mormon 'rules'. And the GOSSIP is rampant. It's a very intolerant and socially competitive environment.

They also don't follow basic rules of social manners. For example, they will manage to ask about your religion, or your ward the first time they meet you.

For people used to a politically liberal and tolerant environment, it would be an adjustment.

Do.Not.Move.To.Utah !!

The cult will come around, behind your back if necessary, and suck in your wife and your daughters.

Moving to Utah is not in your family's best interest.

Just tell your wife that the deal for Utah fell through.

Since you mentioned your wife just had twins, she might be feeling like she needs help from family with the kids.

She's probably feeling stressed out about having brand new babies and not having any family around to help.

Yeah, that's definitely a part of it...Not only that, but she is also upset that my family, who lives in Seattle, gets to see the girls and her family doesn't.

Call the Waambulance!

This affects more than you and your sister for the long term.

Bad deal.
If you want to move to Utah then move there but be aware of the long term affects the church can and will have on your family.


The Morg will be very insidious if children are involved. Your kids could literally wind up seeing you as the "lesser than" parent who has made "bad choices" in the future.

We have a home in the seattle area, and one in the wasatch front area.

I grew up in utah.

We live in the seattle area, and travel to the utah home once a month.

I enjoy traveling to utah, but am always glad to leave. Not just because of the church, and its permeating influence in just about everything, but also, the 8 child policy promoted by the morg (no less than, mind you) has turned the wasatch front into a polluted hive of humanity.

Where I grew up, I used to walk a mile through the fields to see my cousin. Not another soul in site. Today, 1/3 acre home lots there sell for $150K.

It breaks my heart somedays...

Downtown SLC is cool. And Park City. And the Uinta Mountains. And Bryce, Zion, Arches, Lake Powell, etc.

But I promise, you'll miss the rain and the green of the northwest.

Just Sayin'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2013 04:50PM by schlock.

I get the feeling that your wife isn't super Mormon and may actually be open minded, especially since she is willing to read an anti-Mormon book.

Don't let others scare you. I am very confident that her reading a good book which debunks Mormonism will REALLY shake her up. Very few Mormons know the real history and most who do end up like us. Its really getting them to ACTUALLY read it is the hardest part. Most of the time they read a chapter or two, get scared, stop reading and then read some bogus Mopologist crap. Then they clam they've heard all the anti arguments and their testimony is "stronger than ever." If your wife really reads the whole book then I sure it will open her eyes.

Having lived in Seattle and in SLC, I can tell you Utah Mormons are very different from Mormons in other places. Do not make this move. It will be hard on you and the kids.

The beauty of "Insider's View of Mormon Origins" is that it is NOT anti-mormon, because it was written by an active Mormon who worked in the Church Educational System.

That being said, Utah is a lovely place, but for all the Mormonism in it.