Warning: long post alert.

I’m 22 years old and raised evangelical, although I’m not practicing any religion now. I felt like my Christian faith was lacking something and maybe the LDS church had the missing element I wanted. After watching the general conference with a Mormon friend and his wife, I had questions. Soon, an older woman from the church called me and we had several conversations over the phone. She invited me to church and to dinner with her family, but I’m pretty socially reclusive, so I said no. Soon, I got a call from another full time missionary. Then I started getting uninvited visits to my apartment. Then, reluctantly, scheduled visits. I kept thinking this was going to be a temporary thing, but it wasn’t. Now I definitely don’t want these visits anymore, or any religious conversations with missionaries. But there’s one big catch: I live in Provo, Utah.

Just for some background info, I lived most of my life in the Chicago area. Last year I fell in love with sound design and audio engineering. I switched schools to pursue this dream, but they were teaching it too slow, so I dropped out and taught myself. At this point, no one wanted to hire me and I had no place to live (I was sleeping on friends’ couches for a while. I had very little money, needed to move somewhere cheap (like a college town), wanted to live somewhere safe, and wanted to be somewhere with a budding music industry. Provo seemed like the perfect place. So I quickly moved and made some great connections in the music industry right away. I’m definitely glad to be here.

So, back to my experience with the missionaries. A total of four missionaries visit me a couple times a week. Yes, four. Two young, two elderly. All nice people and I respect them. But still, it seems a bit much. I was hoping for a conversation, but instead, I immediately realized this was merely a sales pitch. A reoccurring one. And I keep thinking to myself ‘how much more do you possibly have to tell me?’ But apparently there’s always more. So they keep coming back. I was hoping this was something where they just give me their pitch, then I think about it and call them back if I’m interested. As I’m sure you know, this was not the case. I’m a really nice guy, but very quiet and shy. I hate confrontation, so it’s hard for me to tell them to go away, especially at this point.

It’s weird, some of my biggest inspirations are Mormons, and they definitely live a life worth living. But when I got involved, it almost immediately seemed purely lackluster.

Ironically, ever since the missionaries have started seeing me, I’ve been drinking and smoking more than ever. When I left Chicago I was starting to be sober, but now I’ve given up. The more they try their sales tactics on me, the more my mind wages a battle, and the more I need to escape. And I feel like I’m expected to have this typical appearance too. I like to dye my hair crazy colors, I often wear all black, and I’m getting lots of tattoos this summer. Somehow, I feel like these are also off limits for whatever reason. Like I'm not allowed to express myself. And no tea? Seriously? Hasn’t tea been used as a healthy drink for thousands of years?

So now I dread having to pause my life for an hour a couple times to awkwardly sit with them in my living room as my roommates get ready for work. At least the random visits have seemed to stop. I’m a night owl, so I usually sleep during the day. Their unannounced visits have woken me up a few times. Once I just stayed in bed.

I went to two sacrament meetings in the past. I don’t want to go to a singles ward because I figure they mostly just talk about dating and it’s probably just a very conservative meat market. The family wards can have a good message preached, but the little kids don’t shut up.

And that’s another thing: family. I want to be married some day and I’d like to adopt a child or two. But it seems like they expect of me, as a young man, that I’m supposed to be dating constantly. I already know people here in their early twenties who have had a divorce or been engaged a few times. And I don’t know exactly what the role of women is in the LDS church. One of the reasons I found evangelicalism to be so empty was because they valued men and women very differently. The LDS church doesn’t seem to change that. I’m a single guy, but I don’t want my future wife to feel limited in any way. I believe a solid relationship relies on equality. I want my future wife and I to be equally committed to each other, equally submissive to each other, and at the same time, each have a mind of our own. Why don’t churches understand this?

I feel like what they’re offering is just unnecessary responsibility. I suffer from severe depression and anxiety, so telling me what I can and cannot do is of no help to me. I think a visit to a therapist would be far more beneficial than meeting with missionaries. I also have almost no money and no one, literally no one, will hire me. It’s basically ramen noodles every day for me (which sucks because I’m gluten intolerant). So I’ve got a lot going on in my life right now and the missionary visits are only making it worse. I’m too nice and too shy to tell them to not visit me. I just don’t know what to do.

Sorry, this is really long. I just have so much to say and no one to talk to about it. This board seems extremely active, so I thought it would be a good place to vent. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this if you’ve gotten this far.

I have a couple questions for the people on this board. I was raised as a Christian, but I never felt like my prayers were heard. So, what do you do when you feel helpless and don't feel like religion is the answer? Also, for those of you who are Christian now, are you able to feel like you can freely express yourself? And how do you go about doing that? I always felt labeled in religion and not like an individual, so any tips are helpful. I haven't totally given up on religion. I'm just distancing myself from it for now.

Thanks for any help and thanks for listening.

This is a high-pressure sales pitch.

As long as you are talking to them, they will think you interested and a viable candidate for baptism b/c they will answer your questions and over come your objections.

Now, for you to get out of this all you have to say is this.
I don't believe Joseph Smith had a first vision, restored the Priesthood to earth or that there is even a God who would single out one person to "see" him and no of this makes sense or ever will. I’ve been reading up on the history of the Church and see that it’s history has been re-written to make the Church look good and to minimize the criminal actions of it’s leaders.

They’ll go away, and also find a friend who is not Mormon and knows what a crock it is and don’t get out numbered by these guys.

show you the ropes and get you to church every Sunday. So don't start dating any Mormon girls.

They will keep working on you until you make it VERY clear you want them to leave you alone. Don't worry about being nice, because they're being rude to you. They just disguise it as being nice. Treat them like telemarketers. Hang up when they call, close the door on them when they show up. Tell them to f#%k off. They will be stunned and might think badly of you, but then they will quickly forget you. Also tell them to delete you from any lists they might have of potential converts, otherwise the next group of missionaries will come to annoy you.

The drinking and smoking more is very telling. It tells me that you realize how restricting Mormonism is and you're reacting to that.

Study as much about the church as you can. The fact that they will tell you to stay away from any material which isn't favourable to the Church is also very telling, on their part.

What have they to hide? The truth can stand up for itself.

It shows you how much they are nothing more than salesmen. "Hey, don't look at the competition. We have everything you need right here. Reviews? Hey, don't read those either. They're probably just the competition, trying to make us look bad. Here, have a brochure and see how wonderful we are."

Once they've made the sale, they disappear and go on the look-out for their next victim.

They're extremely pushy salesmen too. Who asks someone to be baptized practically from the moment they've met a person? That's just not normal.

They're persistent. They don't like to take, "No," for an answer, unless you're very firm about it. You don't have to be rude, but you do have to be firm.

Don't let them take control of your life. You be in control of your own life and do what's right for you.

And again, study, study, study. Go to MormonThink.com, watch videos on YouTube. Find out why we're all here, having left the LDS Church.

Answer: It's not true.

"I was hoping for a conversation, but instead, I immediately realized this was merely a sales pitch."

There you have it. The crux of the problem. There is no conversation with these people because they aren't open to criticism of their beliefs. It's a one way street from them to you and your answers are simply seen as objections to overcome so that you can be convinced and become Mormon so they can score points for God.

The problem is that you are way too smart for them and you already see through the facade.

Also, you grew up to be yourself with your own style and you like it. I don't think you'll want to go back to playing childish games like Mother May I?, Red Light Green Light and then end up doing The Hokey Pokey Dance in the Temple (and I'm not kidding)

I grew up there in that area you are in and there's a whole different counterculture down there that's pretty cool and unique.

Back to Mormonism and the missionaries... I'm reminded me of a nightmare moment that I was dreading. My son who was 18 or 19 at the time called me and told me he was taking the Mormon missionary lessons and started going to the Mormon church. I was flabberghasted and very upset at first until I thought about it and how he is. He is a free spirit who sounds like he has a lot in common with you. In that split second I realized that the last thing he is looking for is a gigantic list of rules with an entire neighborhood of mormons backing him up and making sure he keeps all the commandments. I started laughing so hard I could barely finish the conversation. When I explained to him how the mormons have so many laws and "covenants" (more laws just dressed up in a fancy name) his interest turned on a dime and he dropped that idea all together.

Same goes for you... if you are looking to join an organization that requires obedience and tithing, have at it, but yes tattoos, tea, colored hair, and wearing non IBM looking white shirts and ties to church is frowned upon.

To top it all off, the music sucks.

So I don't think it would be a fit for you unless you are looking to change who you are and wanting to be a conformed to a system of rules.

smithscars Wrote:
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> To top it all off, the music sucks.

LOL, yeah. I was playing from the Church hymnbook once and my brother came downstairs and asked me why I was playing funeral music.

Doesn't it seem like Mormon God's taste in music got trapped in time.

I think its hilarious to watch the young people in the Mormon Tab Choir seriously sing this old and dusty music that white haired people sung when I was a kid and think its inspiring to anyone other than mormons...lol

I completely can relate to you. I am shy person too.

Sadly Mormon missionaries are like mafia members -

Ask yourself if mafia visited you, would you open the doors and let them in your house?

Just don`t open doors and don`t respond to their calls.

They like to bully weak, nice, shy, depressed people.

Sorry if I sounded too harsh. Nice, shy, depressed people are not weak. Every person must learn to say No too.
Good luck.

There have been a couple threads on Fascinating Womanhood lately.
This book models a lot of how mormons want their women to be.
Second class, disempowered, pouty or angelic like children. Catering to their man, pretending not to be too bright lest they insult their man's delicate ego, always going about in full makeup and heels.

Yes, you might find some mormon women who object to this social agenda, but they get their hooks in deep. I'm about the opposite of what they try to make women into, but yet a lifetime of training has left its marks.

You really want to look for a good partner somewhere far away from the damaging expectations of this horrible organization.


It will be empowering for you to learn how to exert appropriate boundaries with these guys. Go ahead and practice on these missionaries, they hear rejection many times a day, they won't personally be wounded by you putting your foot down, although they will pretend to be.

You may find this video entertaining/insightful/enlightening/encouraging:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc

(Warning - lotsa swearing)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 09:51AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I see where the creators of this video are coming from. It basically sums up why a lot (maybe most) people believe in religion at all. But still, it's ridiculous for any religous or atheist person to say they understand how everything works. The universe far extends beyond anyone's knowledge, no matter how someone looks at it.

The reason I gave you a link to the video is I was seeing you put organized religion behind you much the way that is illustrated in the video.

"It's ridiculous for any religious or atheist person to say they understand how everything works. The universe far extends beyond anyone's knowledge, no matter how someone looks at it."

I agree with this statement completely.

However, I don't see that this video is making this claim. Important points in the video (some of these are implied instead of stated directly):

1) Where did God come from? If God created man, who created God? If man is too complex to exist without being created by God, then God is certainly too complex to exist without being created.

2) There are many different versions of Gods. Most of those we now consider myths. People believed in those myths just as much as people today believe in their version of God.

3) Organized religion has a really, really bad track record. Although providing some comfort it mostly has been used as a method to control others.

4) Man created god in his image. Its time for humanity to grow up and recognize this.

----

Note:

As far as the reason that people believe in religion, this video is actually completely wrong.

If you are interested in understanding this I HIGHLY recommend Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer.

----

By the way, we have a meet up every Sunday at Cabela's in Lehi, UT, 10 am, food court. You are welcome to attend if you would like. There are people with all different beliefs who attend - some atheists, some Christians, etc. We usually don't get into that kind of stuff too much though.

I am also aware of a BYU group and a couple other groups that meets in Provo/Orem. If you are interested in meeting with them let me know and I'll get you the information.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 11:42AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I know the video didn't make the claim about knowing everything, but it's just usually where that sort of thing ultimately leads, haha. As far as the logic of it all goes, well, I personally try to avoid thinking about it all together. It's important for some to fully examine everything, but I'm already too distracted. I'm not religious, I'm not athiest, I'm just me, heh.

And yeah, I'd totally be interested in knowing where some meetups are around the Provo area. As cool as the Lehi one sounds, I don't have a car right now so I can only do local stuff.

495 w 1230 n, Provo, UT
Sundays 11:30 am

They usually have about 20-30 people there as I understand it.

That is the only one I can put out on a public website, but you can email brian@brightbuilders.com if you like and I can give you info on the other - e.g. the secret byu group.

Oh cool. That's close to where I live. I also just sent you an email.

Funny. I do not see Mormons as living a "life worth living" at all. Ask around here--I think that I have a lot of company in this sentiment.

haha I'm not saying all of them. But there are a few heroes of mine who happen to be mormon and their success is really inpsiring to me. They live amazing lives. I still greatly admire them even if I don't agree with what they believe.

Yep there are lots of great Mormons out there.

However as a whole the statistics strongly indicate that Mormonism does not engender a good life:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,890575,890575#msg-890575

more
http://mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=By%20Their%20Fruits

Maybe embrace who you are for your music, thoughtfulness and uniqueness. Do you aspire to wear a white shirt and tie, part on the left? Do you aspire to greet people hospitably yet never become a part of them? No you don't. You want connection with people and you can spot the genuine thing. You already have. As far as Jesus goes, I do pray and believe in spite of the feeling my prayers aren't heard. I choose to pray and have hope anyway. I was also raised as you were before I became Mormon. I go back to that place. Only I look at God through nature and feel in a small part of a large creation. There are causes and effects to my choices. I live life pretty much knowing that Jesus won't come riding in on a white horse to rescue me from this, that and the other. It's all choices. But you need to find your own comfort. Maybe it isn't about God at all for you.
I'd tell the mishies thanks but I've heard enough to know it isn't for me.
As a side note, they didn't go out of their way to visit you. They are just happy to be having somewhere to go to fulfill their mission calls. It's like they are going to work. It isn't like they would be going to the movies instead. So you didn't put them out, you did them a favor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 10:23AM by snuckafoodberry.

Living a Mormon lifestyle isn't all bad. Especially if you live away from the UT/AZ/ID morridor. Unfortunately, even out here in the field the Mormons will judge you, simply for drinking a diet pepsi even though they themselves chew no-doz on the sly.

In Mormonism, everything is about image. Therefore everything is imagery. After a while in church you'll become aware that everyone is trying to be as good as they think everyone else is. There are good and sincere people to be sure, but they are all so engrossed in looking righteous in the face of their own failings that they become very judgemental..."I have to be perfect or I can't have a temple recommend, so how come that person gets away with their actions?"

You'll also discover that the sins you commit are far less important than the sin of omission. The sin of omission is to have failed to do something that you should have done.

As one who has investigated a few churches after leaving the LDS, I found it very telling that the missionaries want you to commit to baptism right away, when you have to wait a year to become Catholic, months to become RLDS, months to become Methodist. Why? Because they want you to have a good understanding of doctrines and to be sure you are willing and ready to make such a commitment. You have to go to classes that are much deeper than the four or six "discussions" the LDS missionaries give you.

And last but not least, these friends and family will turn on you if you show doubt or ask hard questions. Truly, if you want to know the truth about Mormons, just leave their church. That's why places like RfM exist.

I am going to share a few comments on this statement:

"I have a couple questions for the people on this board. I was raised as a Christian, but I never felt like my prayers were heard. So, what do you do when you feel helpless and don't feel like religion is the answer? Also, for those of you who are Christian now, are you able to feel like you can freely express yourself? And how do you go about doing that? I always felt labeled in religion and not like an individual, so any tips are helpful. I haven't totally given up on religion. I'm just distancing myself from it for now."

I was raised in a Christian home from several generations of ministers before I converted. Religion on a very minor level, was just there: God, prayer, the Bible etc. I was the only one that was "active" in the youth group.

I lived and believed Mormonism's claims for over 30 plus years before I decided I could no longer accept and believe the claims (after much research from original sources), and ...here is my perspective that has worked for me:
I changed my mind. Simple as that.

Then I filled my life with other things. I took adult education classes, had a part time job, got involved in a woman's organization, did a lot of social things, met a lot of new people, all in my 50's.

I lived with and loved Mormons, so I needed to navigate that mine field. My husband has lineage back to Nauvoo and never lost his strong, spiritual witness to the claims of the LDS Church, including having an LDS funeral, burial, etc. in January of this year when he passed away after 50 plus years of marriage. He was a good man. He was able to adjust to my changes, and respect them, and importantly, live the 11th Article of Faith. Then we agreed to disagree. Very powerful!

I never once allowed my choices to change my mind about my beliefs to get in the way of my self confidence, self respect and my rights to how I wanted to think about anything and everything.

Of course, my age, long marriage, (kids out of the home) and various other variables, some coming from my background as a convert, all played into how I, as an adult, making an adult decision could work it out, little by little while living and loving Mormons. In my case, it could be done because I made sure my respect and love of my loved ones was more important than a disagreement over religious beliefs, which are many in our family over the decades.

I have always felt that the universal beliefs about living are the best. Some are found in all religions: Love One Another, Forgive everyone everything, be grateful, The Golden Rule: treat others as you want to be treated, and a dozen other such ideas that bring their kind of power and peace to our lives.

Now, I live alone. It is a very peaceful, stress-free life of my own making that gives me the greatest freedom and joy.

You are very young. You'll figure this all out on your own terms. You can take what you like from any source and try it on for size. If you like it, use it! You can allow yourself to evolve, allow your ideas and beliefs to evolve.
And, my view? Have a great good time doing it!

My best to you!

Your post has definitely given me a lot to think about. And it's amazing that you and your husband were able to live together peacefully with different views. And I really like what you said about universal beliefs. I want to love and respect everyone, no matter what they believe.

Can you love and respect people whose scriptures have a darker skin color as a curse upon wicked people?

Scriptures that can only be bothered to mention three women by name.
An institution that announces that their women "won't lobby for changes", not even the right to wear pants if they choose. This was so far the only acknowledgment of the continued efforts for women's rights within the TSCC. A condescending snippet of a talk reiterating womens' place within the church.

Can you love people who worship a man who spits in disgust as he talks about homosexuals and their "impure and unnatural" inborn tendencies. "Why would heavenly father do that to anyone?" Packer asks as a rebuttal to the very idea that gays are born that way.


I can't find it in me to love or respect the beliefs of these misguided people who champion unequal rights.
There may be good people in the church, but they are acting as agents of ill will by propagating these ideas amongst themselves and to their children. Furthering the cause of bigotry against groups that only want respect for the way they were created.
It's a straight white boys club right out of the 50s.

Yet again, this is too much truth, obviously. True believers think these things. I refuse to support bigots, even when they are super nice, kind bigots. Good thing UT is so homogenous you won't see them unleash their bigotry very often. Yuck. A veneer of sweetness doesn't excuse it. Life's too short to give even passive approval to those who think they are better than 52% of the population, better than non whites, better than non straights...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 01:17PM by WinksWinks.

I love them for being humans who are only doing the best they know. Even if it is completely wrong. A lot of mormons are my friends. All my roommates are mormon too. I can respect them as friends without respecting the founders of their beliefs. If they actually committed unfair acts in an extremist way, then I couldn't hold that respect anymore. But all the mormons I know are really mild, easy going people who are easy to get along with. Some of them like the same music, video games, and hobbies as I do. Life's too short to be too critial, so I like to assume the best of people when I can.

goodscreenname Wrote:
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I think you hit on the key to living peacefully with all manner of differences in belief systems: love people as humans, respect the right to their differences, just as we want!

I have LDS friends, as well as many other religions.
It's not about religion in my relationships. It's about friendship and love - oh and FUN and laughter!

Yes, there are going to be extreme cases of all manner of beliefs, criminal acts, and so on. Generally we don't bet bombarded by those. Most of our lives are the mundane.

I learned a valuable principle many years ago: anything one human being can do, so can another.

Life is short. Too short. Over 50 years was not enough time together. Too often we don't appreciate what we have until we don't have it anymore.

Now is the time to live life to it's fullest! Enjoy it. Live, love, laugh, be happy!

Right on.

Wrong spot......meant to affirm WinksWinks sentiments above. I too have little love or respect for misguided, negative propganda that damages lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 03:19PM by iflewover.

Apparently I haven't had as bad of an encounter with people of the LDS faith.

You wouldn't if you have never been LDS. They are very nice to investigators.

Thanks.

They are generally as sweet as pie as they walk down to vote out equal rights.
The marzipan veneer is thick and sweet but it hides many atrocities. But you know, if all you care about is how you FEEL about mormons, not their actions and agenda, of course you'll get along great with them! You're exactly the kind of guy they're looking for.