Consider the following statements:

1) The LDS Church is false.
2) The LDS Church is harmful.

Which statement is the most important? I submit that, by far, the 2nd statement "the LDS church is harmful." If the LDS church is false, but is still helpful it may still be a good thing.

However, if the LDS church is harmful it cannot possibly be true, because God's true church would not be harmful - that would go directly against the nature of God as defined by the LDS church.

So how do we know if the church is harmful or not? This can, seemingly, be a difficult question to answer. Anecdotal evidence is extremely problematic. On one hand you will hear a story of of the LDS church brought meaning to the life of a drug addict and turned their life around. On the other hand you will hear a story of a gay teen who felt unaccepted in the church and committed suicide.

However, we can look at the data. We can look at the results. As it states in Alma 32 you can examine the tree to know if the seed is good. Essentially, "by their fruits shall we know them."

So what are the fruits of Mormonism? The answer lies in what is the impact on the people who participate in the society and culture engendered by Mormonism?

To answer this question we can look at the statistics for Utah. Although only about 1/2 of the population of Utah are Mormons, the impact on the society as a whole is very direct.

For example, Utah has a life expectancy that is well above average. This is directly due to the LDS health code - specifically the prohibition of smoking cigarettes.

In other words, the LDS church and the culture it engenders has a causal, not merely correlated impact on Utah society. In fact the LDS church directly claims this causal effect - that it is the best solution to the world's problems and the ideal path to a life of fulfillment and happiness. In fact Utah is widely considered by Mormons to be the physical center of Zion - an idealistic society. Just like in the question of capitalism vs. communism, we can take a look at the end result to determine the effectiveness of the system.

So let's examine the statistics of Utah - the very direct fruits of Mormonism.

1) Mental health. This is probably the very best measurement we can get. If Mormonism is helpful the people of Utah should have above average mental health.

What do the statistics say?

Mental health America has ranked the states in order, according to mental health. They consider a number of different factors: rate of depression, suicide, etc. to assess the overall mental health. Of the 51 states, including District of Columbia, Utah ranks 51. Dead last.

http://www.nmha.org/go/state-ranking

2) Another strong indicator is stress level. A previous poll placed Utah as the state with the highest stress level. The most recent poll listed Utah as the 4th most stressed.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147767/Hawaiians-Least-Stressed-Residents-Utah.aspx

3) These are telling statistics, but are there more? Are there additional indicators?

Consider the following:

- Near the bottom in education ranking:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53279780-78/education-utah-percent-report.html.csp

- Highest income inequality by sex:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/10/gender_income_inequality_maps_by_county_and_by_state.html

- Near the top in this indicator of racism:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/11/where-americas-racist-tweets-come-from/265006/

- Well above average in bankruptcy rates:
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/state-us-bankruptcy-filing-statistics-2012-1276.php

- Well above average in mortgage fraud:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=425506

- Highest rate of anti-depression prescription rate:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/eveningnews/main510918.shtml

Granted these are not the only indicators and there are some positive indicators - for example Utah has a below average rate of violent crime. However, I submit, that the proceeding statistics are beyond sufficient to illustrate that "all is not well in Zion." In fact, the fruit of the LDS church is to produce a mentally sick, stressed, unhappy society.

Therefore the LDS church is harmful.

Mormonism. It just doesn't work.

QED.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2013 10:42PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

QED!

Awesome synthesis here, BC/OC. I'm saving everything.

I've tried mentioning these statistics to Mormons before, and all they do is deny it, or say it's because these people are the exceptions because they aren't praying enough and don't represent real Mormons.

There's a lot of denial in Mormon culture, and it's like they say, "You're as sick as your secrets."

As a culture, they have a lot of secrets.

If Mormons did not have the ability to ignore and rationalize evidence, sticking their heads in the sand, there would be no Mormon church.

So this denial sets a standard for everything else in their lives?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2013 11:10PM by liminal state.

I say it does.
IOW, if you're not happy it affects EVERYTHING ELSE.

Particularly health insurance fraud. This is frequently young married couples who try to stay on their parents' (free) health insurance. If insurance companies get a substantial health claim, like, say, a pregnancy/birth, they go out of their way to check whether the young claimant is indeed covered by their policy.

And what is it with adult Utah males carting around 64 ounce garbage-can-sized "sippy cups" all day long?

Utah is also a, if not the national leader in plastic surgery per capita.

That's true about health insurance fraud, and not only do young married couples try to stay on their parents' insurance, if that's not possible, they get on Medicaid to have children without having financial stability. I'm not bashing those who get assistance, but some Mormons do try to commit fraud.

My TBM ex loved to commit financial aid fraud as he would sign up for the required number of units at a community college, then as soon as the check arrived, he would drop classes and end up below the minimum units required. He had done this at several colleges as once the financial aid department caught on, he would go to another college.

Isn't it just?! I fail to even entertain the idea that Utah Mormon women who look way younger than they are is because of something in the water or really good makeup. Not with all the stress a lot of them go under.

I never did find out the church policy on plastic surgery but we definitely discussed it in youth sunday school once with a very liberal and pretty cool teacher.

IMO, if you can't accept piercings and tattoos, then there's no deal with plastic surgery. If you can completely lambast and look down on someone over one thing based on certain doctrine, then that doctrine should apply to EVERYTHING that falls under that bracket.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 08:26PM by Inglaterra.

I left the church based on how they treated homosexuals, women, and minorities.

Number two is by far the greater downfall of the church.

Studying conflicted church history came second after I had already left the church for how cruel they were. Things such as prop 8 really did it for me.

Good stuff BC. Good stuff.

Honestly, I don't care WHAT crazy stuff people believe, as long as they don't hurt other people (and that includes not manipulating other to believe through guilt or fear).

But when you start messing with people's minds, devaluing people who look, believe or love differently, or preventing access to information, then there's a problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 02:11AM by imaworkinonit.

The logic of this article is questionable. It's important to understand weaknesses in Utah, but to point to the church in all of these areas is not logical.

For example, "Mental health America has ranked the states in order, according to mental health. They consider a number of different factors: rate of depression, suicide, etc. to assess the overall mental health. Of the 51 states, including District of Columbia, Utah ranks 51. Dead last.

http://www.nmha.org/go/state-ranking";

This site does place Utah last, however contributing to the higher rates of depression include:

"◾Mental health resources - On average, the higher the number of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers per capita in a state, the lower the suicide rate.
◾Barriers to treatment - The lower the percentage of the population reporting that they could not obtain healthcare because of costs, the lower the suicide rate and the better the state's depression status. In addition, the lower the percentage of the population that reported unmet mental healthcare needs, the better the state's depression status.
◾Mental health treatment utilization - Holding the baseline level of depression in the state constant, the higher the number of antidepressant prescriptions per capita in the state, the lower the suicide rate.
◾Socioeconomic characteristics - The more educated the population and the greater the percentage with health insurance, the lower the suicide rate. The more educated the population, the better the state's depression status."

It's easy to draw conclusions that you want to, but make sure you understand all the facts, not just half truths.

Problem is:

1) Based on other data listed in my article Utah has the highest per ca-pita prescription anti-depressants. So clearly a very high percentage of Utahns are being treated. You state that this is inversely related to overall mental health. Therefore this so be a positive, not a negative contributor to mental health in UT.

2) You also state socio-economic factors as a major factor. Again, UT fares quite well in this regard. For example, Utah has the 7th lowest poverty rate. Likewise Utah has a well above average ranking in education level attained - for example the 9th highest high school graduation rank.


In fact for ALL 4 contributing factors you list, UT is above average! All 4 of those factors should improve the mental health of UT. Yet, there it sits at the very bottom of the list. You actually have only strengthened the argument by pointing out that the other primary factors indicate that UT should be above average in mental health.

You are correct that the LDS church is not the only contributing factor. However what this firmly, completely illustrates is that the LDS church has completely and utterly failed to create the Zion society that purports. In fact the primary indicators are that it produces exactly the opposite.

Furthermore, the LDS church strongly markets that it is a path to happiness. Its members believe that those who stay in the church are happy and those who leave the church or don't have the church in their lives are unhappy.

Yet here is the cold-hard data plainly displaying that the most Mormon place in the U.S is also the most unhappy - based on many factors.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 08:36PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

p.s. If you are opposed to bad logic and half-truths Mormonism is a really bad fit for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 09:50PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Very interesting! Good job BC-TOS!

I would guess that many of my anxieties are a result of my guilt-based Mormon upbringing. And my family ranges from peanuts to pecans, a can of mixed nuts.

Very well said. #2 is all that matters.

If god existed and he really wanted me to join a harmful church I would have to decline.

That being said, Utah is around 35% - 45% (more or less, depending on sources) active Mormon. To be fair, this tends to be a higher percentage of religious folks than you'll find in other religious areas around the nation. However, whatever cultural impact it might have on the state as a whole then would need to be understood as acting at about that strength.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2013 09:20PM by snb.

You are correct - I would guess 35-45 is a reasonable guess.

However, also what needs to be factored into this:

How do that 35-45% treat those who are not active members of the church?

I can give my personal testimony as a Utahn that the poor treatment I have received by active Mormons since leaving the church has been detrimental to me.

Even in this thread you can see an example of someone's mother who believes that someone who doesn't live the gospel deserves to be unhappy - certainly someone who believes that way will treat people that way.

when I said I felt offended at the treatment my family was showing to me my dad exclaimed you brought this on yourself. all I did was stop believing and I declared why in a public forum.

My mom rationalized that more people use anti depressants here because we don't use alcohol.

That's a pretty devastating set of statistics, especially when taken together. By their fruits ye shall know them, indeed.

>
> "Granted these are not the only indicators and
> there are some positive indicators - for example
> Utah has a below average rate of violent crime."

The FBI definition of violent crime (from their website):

"In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force."

I wonder if Utah's numbers would be higher if members weren't so strongly advised to go to their Bishop about everything. How many rape victims have gone to their Bishop (especially when the rapist is also mormon), only to have the reporting end there. How many mormon rape victims have been too scared to even tell anyone because they believe they are to blame for their abuse? The same could be said for assault victims.

Just thinking.

Some lds people explained to me that so many lds people in Utah are on Prozac because they are smarter than the average people. Utah is the beehive state and people there have many degrees and are smarter then other people so when they feel there is something wrong they go to the doctor where as someone who are not as knowledgeable wouldn't seek help and ignore it. (lol right)

If that were the case then UT should have one of the lowest suicide rates, not one of the highest.

Likewise other factors of mental health should be above average, not below average. For example, they should be one of the least stressed states instead of one of the most stressed states if they are really smart enough to get help and are secretly more mentally healthy.

It's not surprising that Mormons who are drinking the kool-aid are able to overcome their cognitive dissidence and come up with rationalizations for why these numbers can be explained.

This information is much more important to someone who already recognizes that the church is not true, but still believes the LDS church is a good organization that helps people.

The data tells a very different story.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 08:20PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I'm going to post this info, one source at a time, onto my FB page.

My mom always says that Utah also has the highest percentage of inactives and ex-Mormons and these poor statistics are a sign of what it says in the temple - if you leave the church you will be in Satan's power.

The fact remains that Utah has the highest percentage of Mormons and the highest percentage of a number of problems. That would not be so if the church's fruits were what they claimed they were. I also heard Utah has the highest per capita rate of plastic surgery and nearly twice the national average of eating disorders. I think we could add a bunch more similar statistics to the ones you listed.

Of course, this is ridiculous. Even the lower activity rates in UT is incorrect. However even if she were right it still shows that people are better off never being Mormon in the first place.

According to this "logic," since baptisms for the dead make things work in the next life anyway and giving people the gospel in this life means they might reject it and be miserable it would be better to never offer it to them in the first place.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 08:07PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I like this compilation you've made here. A lot.

I will never forget the looks I got on my tour of Utah and even the one day I attended church there. I'm black.

Agree completely, bc. As one whose dw is still tbm, who also has decided that the high drug use is because we don't "self medicate" with alcohol to the extent the other states do (abracadabra, the data now,support our lifestyle/culture/doctrine), I wonder how yours responds to this type of info.

I read not long ago that Utah ranked among the highest per capita visitors to a popular online megaporn site.

bc, I completely agree this is the tactic to take. My BIL has said that 'even if the hutch isn't true, I would still want to be a part of it because it is good'. I think a lot of people have that mentality.