In a previous thread (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,896790), I posted an email exchange I had with my 14-year-old son’s bishop regarding his discussion of sexual matters with our son. One of the replies to that post mentioned reporting the behavior to Child Protective Services. I decided to contact Child Protective Services just to find out what the related laws are. They referred me to the Sherriff’s Office, and I was patched through to an officer who investigates child abuse cases.

I explained the situation to the officer—that my son’s bishop was asking him specific questions about his sexual behavior. The officer asked me to explain in more detail the kinds of questions the bishop asks. I said the bishop asks him if he masturbates, and if he answer’s affirmatively, the bishop will ask additional questions about how often and such. The bishop also asks if he’s committed other sexual sins, and if so, asks him to explain the details.

The officer replied, “Is the behavior inappropriate? Absolutely. Has a crime been committed? Well, that depends.” He said that if the bishop were asking the questions for his own gratification, that would be a criminal offense. He said that if either my son or his parents were uncomfortable with the questions he was asking, we can file a report, and they will dispatch an officer to “chat him up” and determine whether an investigation needs to be opened. If they do investigate, they have some standard procedures they use to determine whether the action constitutes child abuse.

The officer wanted me to give the name of the church and the bishop’s name so he could look into it. I gave the name of the church, but declined to give the bishop’s name. I didn’t want to stir up trouble; I mainly wanted to know a little more about the laws governing such situations. My wife and I plan on meeting with the bishop after we return from a trip we’re currently on. I hope to be able to come to some sort of agreement that is acceptable to everyone.

While I would love to simply get my family out of the Mormon Church and never look back, that’s not going to happen. I’m confident my wife will never leave the Church. I hold out hope that my children will one day, but it doesn’t look like that will happen anytime soon. So in the meantime, I think I have the following two options:

1. Refuse to allow the bishop to interview my children, or allow him to interview them but not ask any questions of a sexual nature. The downside of this is that my children will not be allowed to attend the temple and my sons will not advance in the priesthood. While I do not believe in the priesthood and think temple ordinances are a complete waste of time, this would make my kids to some extent second-class members in the eyes of their peers, and they would probably resent me. And my wife, while she has been supportive of me, would feel bad for our kids and probably resent my decision as well.

2. Allow the bishop to interview my children and ask about their sexuality. I could talk with my children after each interview and try to correct things with which I don’t agree. But the bishop will still ask them about masturbation, and put them through the cycle of shame if they do it. And if one of my kids were to commit a sexual transgression, the bishop would probably make them describe their transgression in explicit detail.

Both of these options are quite distasteful, but I see no other option in my current situation. I don’t know yet which one I’ll go with, but whichever one I choose, there’s something that I’m seriously considering doing. I think, of course, that the Church is wrong, both on its stance on masturbation and, more importantly, on interfering with my parental authority. I believe that defining sexual purity and helping my children learn and develop proper attitudes towards sexuality is a joint responsibility between my children and my wife and me. My bishop disagrees, and told me so when I spoke to him on the phone. He said that that is true to a degree, but that a bishop has responsibility to address sexual issues with our children. I think that if we invite him to do so, he can support us in our roles as parents, but he does not supersede our parental authority. Again, he disagrees. And I think his thinking is consistent with Church policy. And I think that Church policy is dead wrong.

I think that one of the best ways to correct injustices is to make people aware of them, which brings me to the something that I am considering doing. I am considering sending a letter to all of the Christian churches in our area. In the letter, I will explain the policy of the Mormon Church of interviewing the teenagers in the Church and asking for explicit details of their sexual behavior. I will not exaggerate or use inflammatory words; I think that the truth is appalling enough. I will use the exact description that my bishop gave me of the kinds of things he asks in interviews. Every non-Mormon I’ve talked to about this has been revolted at what our bishop is doing, especially when I told the bishop I was uncomfortable with it and asked him to stop. I might try to publish a letter to the editor as well.

I haven’t yet decided whether to do this or not. Perhaps many of the church leaders who receive the letter will dismiss me as just someone with an axe to grind. But perhaps some will pass along the information, and people outside the Mormon Church will learn of one of the disturbing practices of the Mormon Church. And perhaps the negative PR will cause the Church to rethink its policy on interviewing youth. I’m not really optimistic that one person like me can make any significant change, but I do know that the Church dislikes bad PR. The bad PR from Prop 8 caused them to stop contributing to fight gay marriage, so who knows?

I’d appreciate any feedback. I’m sure I haven’t thought through all of the ramifications of sending such a letter. If I do decide to send it, I’d appreciate any ideas for other avenues for wider distribution of the letter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2013 04:07PM by copostmo.

I fought with my bishop to stop him from asking my 8 year old son about masturbation or any kind of sexual thing. I also recorded our conversations just in case. He wouldn't back down, so I spoke with the Stake President and we made a compromise. He was to only ask if he was willing to obey the law of chastity, and nothing else. This took a few months of interviews to finally get, but he was baptized, and we ended up leaving the church the next month anyway, but not because of this.

I was seriously close to revealing my recordings to the police, but he's lucky the stake president made him back down. I don't think my bishop was a sex criminal, just very by the book, but in this case the "book" didn't agree with him which I showed him, but he wouldn't budge by anything that I could say.

I think it's this "by the book" thing among Mormons that is the major source of any leadership problem. LDS leaders are either no longer autonomous, or have the distinct feeling that they cannot be autonomous and think for themselves. So they begin to quote manuals and handbooks, sticking to procedure and protocol rather than intelligent thought on these kinds of matters. And yet, at the same time they are never grilled by their own stake presidents, for example, about whether or not they have toed the line and asked all the proper sexual questions or asked how many masturbation confessions they have elicited.

From autonomous to automaton.

I admire that you are informing yourself. Hopefully you can engage the Mormin leaders to the point where they are willing to back down in order to prevent publicity.

I don't know enough about your situation to provide advice, but I encourage you to protect your family from the expertise of the LDS church has in gaining authority over children. Attaching themselves to sexuality is extremely powerful and effective in gaining control over the humanity.

Please continue to take it seriously and please go to secular sources as possible, if you are in Utah or as a general rule please beware of Mormons in law enforcement. They are very comfortable there and will likely choose Mormonism over state.

The religious angle could be helpful in exploring what is proper and also achieving support from those that might have resources and expertise in such matters. Mormons are only powerful within their community, they are not mainstream in the United States and have many inappropriate and vulgar practices that they prefer to hide from publicity.

...My opinion is you are WIMPING OUT, sorry to say. You need to ABSOLUTELY forbid your children to have any personal interviews with LDS lay clergy. Sure, you risk substantial flak from your wife, but this is the time to "do what is right, let the consequence follow".

And BTW, are you merely resigning yourself to watching your wife continue indefinitely in the cult? Does she REALLY understand the ramifications of belief in the Mormon God? The God who used to be a man, has wives and parents and grandparents (eternal progression) and is NOT the creator of all? This is amazing to me; that people believe this stuff. Hopefully you will be a little more pro-active in seeing about getting the wife you love, away from the cult....

I think your opinion is a bit extreme. In my estimation an unbelieving married spouse can do more harm by forcing distance from the believing spouse. I see no harm in compromising by still allowing the interview on the condition that you are present.

Moreover you presume to much when you advise someone on how they should conduct personal matters with a loved one without any real knowledge about the relationship. Copostmo is doing a bang up job in a hard situation, your advice would only make it more difficult.

Or so it seems to me.

I agree. The op listed 2 options, but insisting to sit in on all interviews if the bishop doesn't comply is a very viable third option. As well informing the bishop that you will interject during the interview if you disagree with sexual questions that he is asking.

I feel it is very important to publicise the questionable conduct of religious leaders with minors regarding sexual matters. I encourage you to disseminate your letters as you have described.

You could always attend each interview and interject each time the Bishop asks an inappropriate question. This would show your children that they have rights and it is okay to question the authority and judgement of those in TSCC and questions asked of them.
I think this would go a long way in teaching your children critical thinking skills and self worth. Stand up for what you believe to be right, show your children that they can do the same and you may have your children out of TSCC in record time.
...Or, it all backfires and they think you are overprotective and embarrassing.

You need to be there to run interference and shut down the levels of inappropriate questioning. No way should your minor son be alone with him. Either you're there, or no interview.

I have never been a mormon.

I find the idea of discussing sex/sex acts with children to be absolutely abhorrent.

some young people wouldn't even know what the hell the questions were getting at!

Others would, but why does some other man need to know their answers.

Surely god can already see exactly what's going on under the sheets?

I think write the letter and send it out. This practice to me seems like a paedophiles dream. I'm sure that for most its not anything sordid at all, just following the rules. However this rule places young people in danger.

I would smack someone in the mouth if I found them talking to my child about sex/masturbation no matter what the circumstances (the only exception being for education ie you can say no, or always use a condom etc etc).

Its wrong to sexualise children.

Its wrong to warp their innocence by making them feel sordid and dirty for natural feelings and urges.

And its wrong for a Bishop to override a parental decision.

Send the letter, and send it to the editor, also consider talking again with the police.

Thank you for calling the police to find out the laws on such things.
Sounds like they will only make a case out of it both after the fact, and if the interviewee or his/her parents are uncomfortable because of it.

This could be good news for everyone who hates their kids being asked such questions.

Also, many parents on the board here insist on sitting in on these interviews. And the bishop can't stop you. Frequently the bishops resort to sneak attack style interviews, where they pull the kid out of class with no notice to do the interview.
I would insist on your parental rights, which trump his imaginary rulebook rights, and sit in on the interviews. But I am not a parent.

Also, I like the agreement reached above about asking only that the child "respect the law of chastity".
If only there was some guarantee that that was the only even vaguely sexual question ever asked. But you can't count on these guys to stick to any kind of agreement. Integrity in mormonism? That's a laugh.

I have a 12 year old son that has very little knowledge of the church other than asking me why his tbm family is so weird. I literally could not bear the thought of another man asking him about masturbation. It goes to another level when that man straight tells me that he uses the "spirit" to decide where to take his line of questioning. Protecting my wife and son from predators like that (and make no mistake about it, any guy that would consider it his duty to ask kids about masturbating is a predator) is one thing I would happily die for. My wife is a nevermo but I can guarantee you that if she tried to let some guy interview my son about anything without me being there that she and I would divorce. I wouldn't even hesitate. There will be some on this board that would say he has "good intentions" when you and I both know that everything he's built his life on is a lie. There are some that would say, "You entered the marriage as TBM and now you have to fulfill the contract". I say let those people be ok with damaging their kids but I would encourage everyone else to do what they know is right.

These are your kids you're talking about. What will you do when your son becomes an adult and asks you why you allowed him to be questioned about masturbation? Just like I did to my dad. Wouldn't you rather look back on a difficult decision that you made then deal with that down the road?

I told the bishop (really good guy) that he was not to ask any personal or worthiness related questions of my children at any time for any reason. He pushed back a bit, but I let him know he would lose the battle and the war on this one. He backed down and agreed. And abided by his agreement. Good guy. Stuck in a bad position.

I remember being asked about masturbation as a teenager. I lied about it then, and felt terrible - both about lying and the practice itself.

I kind of wished an adult had taken me aside and explained: "These are not fair questions. Everyone masturbates or has masturbated, including the bishop. In fact, the bishop probably still masturbates. You can interpret the law of chastity to mean do not engage in any sexual behavior that harms another person, and masturbation does not harm anyone. If the bishop presses you for details, then it is ok not to be completely honest with someone who is crossing a personal boundary. It is the mark of becoming an adult when you enforce these boundaries. Telling a lie is not unethical in these kinds of situations. If you don't believe me, then try yourself to find any kind of passage in the scriptures that explicitly prohibits masturbation."

Just tell him to pray and ask god if your son is worthy, he shouldn't need to interview him. Problem solved.

I like this one. Hell, the instruction book tells the douche to pray and ask for the spirit to be with him. Why can't it just tell him if the kid is worthy or not? Problem solved, no interview.

Option 3. Sit in on all interviews.

I think more parents should stand up and report this behavior. It is wrong to allow hour children to be questioned like this. As I have said more than once, (if you are an adult, especially a parent,) "you're an adult, act like it." And allowing your children to be questioned like this is you not taking control of the well being of your children. I am happy you are standing up for what you believe! Well done!

What does it take to get an issue on a ballot? Is a petition signed by enough people sufficient to allow citizens to vote on whether under state law a church representative can ask a minor about masturbation or sexual activity?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2013 05:42PM by thingsithink.

I would definitely let the Bishop know that you're checking with the police on the legality of such an interview. Make him squirm a bit.

Then I'd definitely go for Option 3, which is to sit in on all interviews involving your children.

Stopping this practice needs to begin somewhere. It will begin with parents saying, "No," to adults being alone with their children in closed rooms, asking them personal questions.

Such issues should be only between a parent and their child.

The CHI states specifically that during the temple recommend interview the bishop is NOT to deviate from the proscribed questions. I spoke with my children's bishop when I left and told him he was not to question my children about masterbation and he could only ask the questions on the list and not engage them in further conversation of a personal nature. He agreed.

According to my children, he has respected what I told him.

By asking him instead of telling him you giving him power. Do not do that. They are your kids, and if your wife wants a non parent talking with her kids about their sexual relationships she is opening the door to abuse in the future. You need to tell her that

I would either forbid private interviews with the bishop altogether, or sit in on them, which is your right. Tell the bishop to stick to the questions in the CHI, with no deviation. That means that the most the bishop can inquire about in that regard is whether or not your child keeps the law of chastity.

Send the bishop a registered or certified letter explaining that there are to be no private interviews between him and your children without you present. Send a copy to the SP. Make your children aware of this as well, that they are never to be pulled out of a class or activity to go see the bishop unless you are present as well.

It is a very powerful experience for kids to see their parents question religious authority.

if you go to my post at

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,897016

you will see that you're not alone.

What the hell is wrong with these by the book types. It just serves to confirm to me that this is a cult.

You mean that question isn't even in the handbook? Then why do they get away with asking it?

I absolutely agree with everyone who said to sit in with your son during the interview. Educate yourself on what the questions are in the CHI and if the bishop goes off course, let him know you'll have none of it.

TSCC has gotten away with this creepy voyeurism of children and young adults for way too long. Time for parents to step up. I admire you so much for doing so.

I would insist on being present at any interview between a bishop and my child. When you are present I will bet that the question about masturbation never crops up in that situation.

My daughter was flashed by her step dad. We moved to another state and another ward. She came through it okay, just brushed off the offender as a creep and went on with her life. She was 12 when flashed and we moved when she was 13. I asked her why didn’t you tell me? I didn’t want to move Mom! Kids!

But in her new ward where we were new moves ins, even though her BP knew what had happened to her…he would grill her in her interviews and sometimes put her on penance as it were, because she had “more sexual thoughts than a girl her age should have” My daughter didn’t tell me he did that until later.

So the worst part was the horrible interviews and condemnation by her ignorant Bishop.
When my DD was a senior in HS and had left the church after graduation her BIC father called us.

He said, I’m sorry I didn’t think of this earlier……She should HAVE NEVER HAD ANOTHER INTERVIEW ALONE WITHOUT A PARENT THERE because of what happened to her. Would you please tell her I’m sorry?

He’s sorry? I did a face palm! I was very very sorry I’d not insisted on being in on those interviews!!!! I could have protected her and saved her some grief ….by being there for her and NOT LETTING THE BP interview her alone!!!!!


Please Please do not let your child be interviewed alone. He can be taught the mantra of “I will with my parent here”. As an answer. (Reminds me I will give you your answer at the veil…) or I will answer your questions if my lawyer is here….same social skill set.

I found it very interesting that my five generation former husband who cherry picks the church and thinks it is very corrupt very firmly said he wished he’d thought of it sooner. If he had, I would have been in every interview!

I like option 3, and I'm wondering why the church still allows its lay clergy to interview children behind closed doors without a parent present or without the parent's consent. This not only puts children at risk, but it also puts adults at risk of being falsely accused.

I would not only tell the bishop what the sheriff told you, but I would also call church headquarters to let them know as well. The only way this practice will stop is for parents to say no, and any bad PR will help too.

You mention sending a letter to others churches in your area to ask what their policies are on this issue. If you do, you could enclose a survey (yes/no questions for example) with a self-address-stamped envelop so they can send it back to you. It would be interesting to see the replies, and to include them in a public letter to the editor or some op ed piece.

Let's make this issue public and get it stopped. Mormons can be so brainwashed, they would never think of questioning the church.

As a convert and single woman, I avoided interviews because I never really liked them. Before baptism I was asked about the law of chastity. Masturbation never came up. The question that bothered me was whether I had ever had an abortion. I was truthful and said no. I almost thought of saying yes just to see what would have happened.

The only power the lds church has, is the power its members give it.

I am the victim of clergy misconduct during teen interviews. I had a bishop that asked me several times what I thought about when I saw a girls nipples get hard under her shirt or bathing suit. I didn't realize until later how offensive, creepy, and disgusting his conduct was. The girls I knew in that ward were asked weird things too. In that ward the priest quorum advisor/teacher was a gay pedophile who regularly and aggressively fondled us and wanted to give us BJs. He ultimately served prison time over his conduct. Before I was 19 I had been sexually fondled by two other ward members, one of whom tried to give me a hand job. I was being pounded with the masturbation question from the time I was 12 through my stint as the EQP of a BYU ward. Bishops, SP, MP all wanted to talk about my sexual behavior. All of this is one of the main reasons I fled TSCC as soon as I could after college. It haunts me to this day. One of the things that I carried anger over for many decades was the utter failure of the adults in my life, people I totally trusted, including my deluded father (uber TBM) to step in and protect us from all of this. I reasoned that if they were so in tune with god and receiving so much personal revelation, why didn't they know that all of this was going on and do something? I can't tell you in strong enough language how this scarred me as a child and the issues I had for the next 40 years. I protected my children by never letting them anywhere close to anything mormon and the difference in them compared to their tbm cousins is profound. Do whatever it takes to protect your children from the monsters that inhabit TSCC, they are evil, dispictable, crazies.

If this practise of intimate questioning of children were to be publicised in the media, I guarantee there would very quickly be a policy change from church HQ. Sadly, negative PR is the only thing that will make TSCC change something that 99.9% of society would find completely abhorrent.

I'm amazed that the wider media hasn't already picked up on this.

I really like the idea some other posters have had to tell your children that it is not acceptable to have an interview without your presence. Tell them to tell church leaders the same if they ask to lead an interview when you are not there. Tell them to tell the leader that they will get in trouble with you (of course, they won't) if they have an interview alone. That way the emotional difficulty is on your shoulders and you take the blame. You will also sow the seeds of doubt for them, which can only be a good thing. Lastly, you are giving your kids an ally. They'll always remember that.