rhgc, you said:

"Years ago I thought that Joseph Smith at least thought he was a prophet. But after reading what he wrote himself it is evident he knew he was a con from the very beginning."

What have you read that tells you this? I guess I'm still in the boat that he somehow convinced himself it was real, but I'd like to hear what you know. If anyone else has something to say, feel free to share, too!

Thanks, everyone!


Original post here:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,778611,778706#msg-778706



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 02:47PM by almostthere.

topping

cant see him writing D&C and trying to convince himself about these as revelations. just 3 options:

-he was a big liar

-he was hearing voices in his head

-he was a prophet

Nauvoo House revelation

D&C 124 has to be the work of a con-man who knew exactly what he was doing. It is basically a business document written in King James English.

JS gives specific details about dollar amounts and certain people who are to give money. The Lord is apparently more interested in a hotel that was never finished than he was about giving important, accurate and detailed information on blacks, 2nd coming, location of BofM sites, Hoffman manuscripts, etc.

Here are a few verses

65 But they shall not be permitted to receive over fifteen thousand dollars stock from any one man.
66 And they shall not be permitted to receive under fifty dollars for a share of stock from any one man in that house.
67 And they shall not be permitted to receive any man, as a stockholder in this house, except the same shall pay his stock into their hands at the time he receives stock;
71 And if they do appropriate any portion of that stock anywhere else, only in that house, without the consent of the stockholder, and do not repay fourfold for the stock which they appropriate anywhere else, only in that house, they shall be accursed, and shall be moved out of their place, saith the Lord God; for I, the Lord, am God, and cannot be amocked in any of these things.
74 Therefore, I say unto you concerning my servant Vinson Knight, if he will do my will let him put stock into that house for himself, and for his generation after him, from generation to generation.
78 Let my servant Isaac Galland put stock into that house; for I, the Lord, love him for the work he hath done, and will forgive all his sins; therefore, let him be remembered for an interest in that house from generation to generation.
80 Let my servant William Marks pay stock into that house, as seemeth him good, for himself and his generation, from generation to generation.
81 Let my servant Henry G. Sherwood pay stock into that house, as seemeth him good, for himself and his seed after him, from generation to generation.
82 Let my servant William Law pay stock into that house, for himself and his seed after him, from generation to generation.

Jeeeeeezus Cariiisssst:

What's on first?

Who's on second?

Sounds like a friggin broken record

JS was no different than many present-day athletes and entertainers...

They really think they are better than the rest of us...

Their sh!t don't stink and they brush their teeth with it...

Too cool for school...

It's called EGOMANIAC

Many historians believe that he grew to somewhat believe in his own prophetic mantle in later years, perhaps as a result of so much success against difficult odds. I'm not convinced, though. While I can accept that his ego and boldness ballooned in later years, I don't think he ever truly believed in what he was saying.

I've often wondered that myself. In many stories he certainly seems to believe... but it could just be a combination of narcissism and the fact that the narrator of the anecdote truly believed.

Hard to tell... but I lean toward him at least knowing he was a fraud, even if he started maybe thinking he was magic or divine later, he still knew deep down that he started the whole thing as a sham.

This is my "best guess". When he started out authoring the Book of Mormon there is no possible way he thought his story was true - he knew he didn't have the plates. However, even then, he may have considered himself a reformed improving religion.

By the end I suspect he was at least partially delusional - truly believing that he was some sort of prophet. Reading the court case of Brian David Mitchell (Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper) is part of what makes me think this. I see a LOT of parallels between the two - Mitchell's wife accepted him as a prophet and I believe he had lied to himself so long that he at least partially believed it himself.

"You don't know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. . . . When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then." -Joseph Smith

Maybe there's a hidden double meaning to this. Was he trying to hint here that what everyone thought they knew about Joseph Smith was wrong? The last sentence makes me wonder if he's talking about that no one will discover his sins until Judgement Day, or the day of the Internet, whichever comes first.

The key was the "Lectures on Faith". Note that I now know much more and my conclusions are certain.

In the Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith explains exactly why he put certain things into the religion, not by inspiration or by revelation, but by what he had learned. Specifically, he explained why it was necessary to place heavy burdens on members. He reasoned that if you did not put such heavy burdens on, people would leave the religion. He knew about Islam and its heavy burdens. Note that the concept of heavy burdens is not only mentioned in the OT as contrary to that concept and that when a king raised such burdens it was wrong. Even more important. the NT speaks of the burden to be light.

The key was that Smith knew very well he was not being a prophet but was creating a new religion based on the use of holding people by the fact of their obedience.

TSCC continues to use the same un-Christian policies laid down by Smith. Many people have so "invested" that they are loath to "cut their losses".

edited a typo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 06:18PM by rhgc.

Oh wow you're right I recall him saying that now, it makes a lot of sense.

"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."

Oh, interesting. As soon as I recover from being totally burned out (while at the same time, totally addicted) to reading Mormony stuff, I'll need to get a copy of that...

The burden is used to put people in a position of the sunk costs fallacy.

Believing that he believed was a perfectly reasonable reaction given the thorough brainwashing you received. I shared the delusion briefly.

Here is what we would have to believe to accept that JS believed. . .

- He saw a fire-sword wielding angel who demanded he marry attractive women.

- He had a vision of walking into a hill and seeing treasure

- He stared at a seer stone and truly saw the letters that comprise the BoM

- He thought God revealed the true transcriptions of Egyptian funeral texts and the Kinderhook plates

- Peter, James, John, Moses, etc. appeared to him as plainly as one man does to another (no 'spiritual eyes' nonsense)

- God told him the Masonic ritual was a fallen version of the true ritual

etc. etc. Someone crazy enough to truly believe all this happened to him would not be functional in society. He'd be off muttering to himself on skid row, not seducing women, writing books, and being admired as the Very Great Man.

He was not that far removed from reality. He knew what he was doing.

Haha, yeah... I guess what I meant was not that he believed literally what he was telling people, but that somehow his fraud was a pious one, intended to save souls. I also imagine that once he started studying all sorts of crazy stuff, assimilating Masonry, adding his own thoughts to the Bible, etc., that he really thought he was revealing truth. I could also imagine that he really thought he did see visions- enough other people were doing the same thing in his time and vicinity, right? Also, didn't he say at one point that his own inspiration and ideas were as good to him as revelation?

Well, I could be wrong. He could also have been a total sociopath, a deliberate con artist, or just crazy. I haven't yet passed judgement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 07:47PM by almostthere.

He also would have had to construct 'prop' plates and then believe they were delivered by an angel. That would be some serious psychosis!

Not necessarily. He could have dug up that tile-brick, and then crazily convinced himself that it was golden plates.

Haha... but that would be a stretch (especially when he then tries to trick the 3 witnesses to just pretend see it)

But Emma described that she had felt them and flipped pages and they made metallic sounds when she "rustled" the pages.

They must have been pretty crappy if Joseph let her feel them but not look at them.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,779307,779307#msg-779307



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 08:14PM by steve benson.

I like the evidence given by William Law in his interview with the SL tribune reporter.

THE DAILY TRIBUNE: SALT LAKE CITY, SUNDAY MORNING, JULY 31, 1887.
THE LAW INTERVIEW.

"The letters you wrote me, made me suppose that the Smiths tried to kill you when they saw an enemy in you?"
"They tried to get rid of me in different ways. One was by poisoning. I was already out of the church when Hyrum called one day and invited me for the next day to areconciliation dinner as he called it, to his house. He said Joseph would come, too. He invited me and my wife. He was very urgent about the matter, but I declined the invitation. Now I must tell you that I, in those dangerous days, did not neglect to look out somewhat for the safety of my person and that I kept a detective or two among those who were in the confidence of the Smiths. That very same evening of the day on which Hyrum had been to my house inviting me, my detective told me that they had conceived the plan to poison me at the reconciliation dinner. Their object was a double one. My going to the dinner would have shown to the people that I was reconciled and my death would have freed them of an enemy. You may imagine that I didn't regret having declined that amiable invitation."
"Have you had any knowledge of cases of poisoning in Nauvoo, ordered by the authorities?"
"I know that several men, six or seven, died under very suspicious circumstances. Among them were two secretaries of the prophet, Mulholland and Blaskel Thompson. I saw Mulholland die and the symptoms looked very suspicious to me. Dr. Foster, who was a very good physician, believed firmly that those six or seven men had been poisoned, and told me so repeatedly."

This is just a portion of the interview with William Law of the first presidency. If Joseph and Hyrum are activly killing off people mafia style then I think they know they are con men.

This has been my conclusion, if they are willing to kill people they have no fear of God and have been conning people from the very beggining!

I dunno about that, there are lots of people who very strongly believe in some God or another who are willing to kill in his name. If JS really believed his own story, then he'd have thought Law was a danger to the work of God and God's judgement would have to come upon him... You know, like how it would have to come upon Emma if she didn't accept his new teenage brides.