Please let me intrude on your life a bit ;)

During your numerous pre-apostasy discussions with GAs, including your grandfather while he was still lucid, as well as your long meeting with Elders Oaks and Maxwell, did it surprise you as a TBM at the time that none of them ever claimed to have a special personal visitation from Christ (the ultimate "special witness" trump card)?

Like many TBMs, I naively grew up actually believing that the Jesus Christ really did "stand at the head of the Church" and that the FP/Q12 had frequent direct interactions with deity. I believe TSCC encourages this belief by dropping subtle hints of "special" experiences that are too "sacred" to detail. There were also several stories of personal visitations that flowed through the Utah rumor mill during my childhood (70s and 80s).

Reading your exit story absolutely shattered this myth for me. If they actually had such experiences, why on earth would they not share such in an effort to "save" the prophet's grandson (especially in a private interview)? It would have been so much simpler for them to respond to Steve's questions by saying: "Well Steve, none of that really matters to me; I know that Jesus leads this Church because he has appeared to me and the other apostles."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 02:19PM by Onmywayout . . . someday.

--At a Benson family reunion, my grandfather told the gathered kin that he had had personal experiences too sacred to talk about. That did absolutely nothing to move the ball downfield.

--ETB also told me the same thing in private conversation in his Church-provided apartment, with tears in his eyes, when I asked him what it was like to be in the Salt Lake temple with other members of the Quorum of the Twelve in June 1978, when Spencer Kimball informed them that the Mormon Church was dumping its anti-Black priesthood ban. All my grandfather did say to me was that it was one of the most spiritual experiences of his life. (Fellow apostle Bruce McConkie later publicly informed a BYU seminary teachers conference that nothing particularly exotic occurred during that temple meeting with Kimball--no angels, no rushing of winds, no appearance of Joseph Smith, etc. McConkie said it was simply a feeling in his heart of the truth of Kimball's directive, delivered to the members of the Quorum through the Holy Ghost. He described it as the kind of personal witness that any faithful member of the Mormon Church would understand. Gee, thanks. As the old song goes, "If that's all there is, my friends, then let's keep dancing").

--When I met privately with Apostles Neal Maxwell and Dallin Oaks in the Church Administration Building in September 1993, I asked them both to describe to me their personal spiritual experience that elevated them to apostolic "Special Witness" status for Jesus Christ.

Maxwell answered by telling me that when he was a young boy he witnessed his father give a healing priesthood blessing to a sibling that brought the sib back from the brink of death.

Oaks responded by telling me that, as a college student, he had questions about the LDS gospel which a seminary and institute instructor helped him work through. Oaks also told me that he got a "knot" in his heart (his word, which he used indicating with his hand toward his chest) that confirmed to him that Mormon Church scriptures were true.
____


In other words, it all amounts to nothing more than boilerplate testimonials from Mormonism's top dogs that one could hear delivered by anyone else in any wardhouse in any locale in any fast and testimony meeting on any given Sunday.

I don't care how supposedly "too-sacred-to discuss" these duck-and-dodge claims may be. When it comes to Mormonism's leadership actually having these supposedly phenomenally unique encounters with the divine, their descriptions point to this simple truth: There's no "there" there.

My experience with these guys leads me to conclude: Either put up or shut up.

They don't produce the former, so it's time to move to the latter.



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 05:39PM by steve benson.

"My experience with these guys leads me to conclude: Either put up or shut up. They don't produce the former, so it's time to move to the latter."

Well said . . . thanks for replying Steve.

Sounds like the "too sacred to discuss" excuse is a way of lying without lying. Lead people to believe experiences too miraculous to have without a prophetic calling, which may lead some to believe visitations, without saying that they happened.

Growing up, I always believed that the prophets had face to face visits with Jesus. It became increasingly apparent throughout adulthood that this was not the case.

No visitations, no actual witness, no perfect knowledge = no different than any other religion.

"No visitations, no actual witness, no perfect knowledge = no different than any other religion."

BINGO! When I realized that these visitations were a myth, I then had to come to grips with the fact that every single Mormon (including the prophet and the apostles) is ultimately relying on the Moroni 10:4 method to support their testimony, which is exactly what all other religions do . . . that realization utterly demolished my testimony because I had to admit that my spiritual experiences were not in any way qualitatively different from those experienced by members of other faiths.

And that's exactly why these bozos keep dropping hints about their sacred experiences as "special witnesses." It is imperative to keep the myth that "Jesus stands at the head of the Church" alive and well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 04:04PM by Onmywayout . . . someday.

It also became abundantly clear that there was no such witness when reading up on the BH Roberts story and his interactions with the brethren when it came to the crisis about BOM problems which included Ethan Smith, archaeology etc. BH Roberts called the brethren together in the temple to ask them to address the problem, said that urgent revelation was required to answer the questions. Instead what he got were a bunch of teary eyed testimonies from the 15 brethren testifying that they knew it was true because they felt the spirit testify to them of the truthfulness.

BH Roberts said that he was completely unsatisfied with their responses.

Had there been any actual visitation from Jesus in the past, they wouldn't have justified their testimonies of the BOM with spiritual promptings.

These were human-like creatures that Roberts believed were not part of the genealogical family of Adam and therefore were not effected by "the Fall" (i.e, the act of Adam and Eve partaking of the "forbidden fruit," in violation of God's command and therefore becoming sinful and mortal). Roberts was of the view that the fossil record proved that "pre-Adamites" did, in fact, exist long before the advent of Adam and Eve, and, hence, that they lived and died on this planet before Adam and Eve came upon the scene..

Smith argued that could have been no such creatures because, according to Mormon scripture, there was no death before the Fall of Adam and Eve and that, therefore, the idea of death pre-dating the Fall negated the need for both a Savior and an Atonement.

Roberts and Smith argued their respective cases before the Quorum of the Twelve--which ended up not taking sides with either of their positions; admonished both men to leave these matters to science; advised them to show more respect for one another; and ordered them to focus their attention on their calling to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ,

And, you're right, Roberts thought that the testimoniural responses of the members of the Quorum of the 12 were completely inadequate and unsatisfactory. He died as both an alcoholic and a disbeliever in the Book of Mormon.



Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 09:10PM by steve benson.

Also, Christopher Hitchens also eloquently described spiritual promptings and feelings such as what would be expected from Moroni 10:4 as "white noise". This is something that can be so easily used to accommodate any belief system. Kind of like a binary response. Go with your belief as if it's the only true on in the world based on a positive feeling. Something any rational person would admit can be generated within one's own mind, no matter how convincing.

I enjoyed it too Steve. Very powerful stuff there.

thxs

Mormons in general are told the temple ceremony is too sacred to discuss outside the temple. However, there really is nothing sacred about it at all, it's just secret.

The biggest secret is how stupid it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 04:01PM by bc.

Silly ex-mormons. TRUE prophets don't need to actually *see* something to know its there. Or real. HarHar.

If the president/prophet of the church ( Hinckley in this case) really could confer with deity then why would they hire mere mortal as a PR consulting firm to help out LDS INC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QknCsJQBcco

can you imagine Jesus saying to Hinckley: "yah, go ahead and pay out a retainer fee to that PR agency to get them to help us with some ideas to promote my gospel, there is no better way to spend this money .............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 04:36PM by lucky.

Better yet, can you imagine Jesus giving directions on the mall:

- And thou shalt open a Tiffany's store, for my heart delighteth in their cute little blue boxes.

- And thou shalt open a Brooks Brothers store, for their fine apparel is pleasing to me, much more so than that abominable Mr. Mac shit all of my missionaries wear.

- And thou shalt open a Micharl Kors store, for I am the Lord thy God and the mansions of my Father prepared for your everlasting rest are all decorated in a very chic and sophisticated style that only mine elect like Michael can appreciate.

The City Creek webpage, in case anybody's wondering how Jesus directs his prophets to spend His money.

http://www.shopcitycreekcenter.com/

Then why did Joe Smith produce a dozen different versions of it? It seems the guy just couldn't SHUT UP about his personal visitation. These modern guys can't reproduce the original claim (which never happened IRL anyway) and they can't admit they're faking it, so they lie, make excuses, prevaricate, and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them.

To proclaim it to the world, they would pound the pulpit and testify that they too had seen the resurrected Christ and felt the nail prints in his hands and spear wound in his side. But, .........nothing.

So they don't have an actual "special witness," and to compensate, they make up stories to get the spiritual juices flowing. Think Paul Dunn. And we fall for it. If a guy like Dunn can do what he did and continue as a bigwig in the church, then it has to be a con and they know it!

I was thinking just today, "how can modern day apostles honestly say "I'm an apostle of Jesus Christ?"

Really, how bold for a Quentin Cook to honestly believe he is equal to Peter, James (both of them), Thomas, Matthew etc.

Takes some brass ones to state it and bigger ones to look in the mirror and believe it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2012 01:25AM by steve benson.

yah here is quentin cook saying some other insane crap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMb3YHN1gOA

apostle ? or LIAR !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srILFPwAAuU

Is "too sacred to detail" anything like "too mean to mention?"

Yeah, what good is a witness if the things he is supposed to testify of can't be talked about because they are too sacred to talk about? Sounds like a useless witness if you ask me. Can you imagine a witness taking the stand in a jury and saying that?
"I'm sorry your honor, I can't talk about whether or not I saw the defendant kill the victim. Its too sacred to discuss."