The exit story for the SoCal bishop that stepped down was a great read.

During the meeting he had with a GA from the 70, the GA mentioned that "as a special witness" blah, blah, blah, the church is true. The 70 that visited my stake conference earlier this month said very much the same thing.

I am so glad BishopAtheist asked the GA what was so special about his witness. And the answer is...NOTHING! His witness is no different than any run-of-the-mill member sitting in the pews on Sunday. I love what he wrote.

> After some more questions, he admitted
> that he doesn’t HAVE a special witness,
> but that he IS a special witness. This
> was the only thing he taught me during
> our meeting. I did not realize that
> “special witness” was just the name (a misleading one)
> of a calling like “sunday school president”
> or “Saturday morning toilet washing committee member.”

The title "Special Witness" is VERY misleading. Most TBM's assume all the special witnesses have seen Jesus face to face. I find the usage of this title very dishonest. I'm very glad that he got a GA to admit that he doesn't really HAVE anything special to turn his faith into knowledge. This is very telling about the special witnesses the top 15 supposedly have as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2013 11:20PM by Hold Your Tapirs.

I'm not sure if this has been posted recently, but according to the Mormon Research Ministry, the phrase "the name of" was added to the "Gospel Principles" manual published in 2009, in the following ways:

"Chapter 14
"1997 to 2009
...
"An Apostle is a special witness of THE NAME OF [added] Jesus Christ in all the world (see D&C 107:23)...." [emphasis added]

And,

"Chapter 17 - The Church of Jesus Christ Today
"1997 to 2009
...
"Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of THE NAME OF [added] Jesus Christ, teach the gospel and regulate the affairs of the Church in all parts of the world...." [emphasis added]

http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles


In other words, from the manual published in 1997 to the one published in 2009, Mormon apostles went from being "special witnesses of Jesus Christ" to "special witnesses of THE NAME OF Jesus Christ."

That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

I think they mean special as in special needs, not unique. ;)

lawyer speak

Can you provide the link for his exit story? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks!

--At a Benson family reunion, my grandfather told the gathered kin that he had had personal experiences too sacred to talk about. That did absolutely nothing to move the ball downfield.


--ETB also told me the same thing in private conversation in his Church-provided apartment, with tears in his eyes, when I asked him what it was like to be in the Salt Lake temple with other members of the Quorum of the Twelve in June 1978, when Spencer Kimball informed them that the Mormon Church was dumping its anti-Black priesthood ban. All my grandfather did say to me was that it was one of the most spiritual experiences of his life. (Fellow apostle Bruce McConkie later publicly informed a BYU seminary teachers conference that nothing particularly exotic occurred during that temple meeting with Kimball--no angels, no rushing of winds, no appearance of Joseph Smith, etc. McConkie said it was simply a feeling in his heart of the truth of Kimball's directive, delivered to the members of the Quorum through the Holy Ghost. He described it as the kind of personal witness that any faithful member of the Mormon Church would understand. Gee, thanks. As the old song goes, "If that's all there is, my friends, then let's keep dancing").


--When I met privately with Apostles Neal Maxwell and Dallin Oaks in the Church Administration Building in September 1993, I asked them both to describe to me their personal spiritual experience that elevated them to apostolic "Special Witness" status for Jesus Christ.

Maxwell answered by telling me that when he was a young boy he witnessed his father give a healing priesthood blessing to a sibling that brought the sib back from the brink of death.

Oaks responded by telling me that, as a college student, he had questions about the LDS gospel which a seminary and institute instructor helped him work through. Oaks also told me that he got a "knot" in his heart (his word, which he used indicating with his hand toward his chest) that confirmed to him that Mormon Church scriptures were true.
____


In other words, it all amounts to nothing more than boilerplate testimonials from Mormonism's top dogs that one could hear delivered by anyone else in any wardhouse in any locale in any fast and testimony meeting on any given Sunday.

I don't care how supposedly "too-sacred-to discuss" these duck-and-dodge claims may be. When it comes to Mormonism's leadership actually having these supposedly phenomenally unique encounters with the divine, their descriptions point to this simple truth: There's no "there" there.

My experience with these guys leads me to conclude: Either put up or shut up.

They don't produce the former, so it's time to move to the latter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2013 05:12AM by steve benson.

In the 2011 edition of the Mormon Church's "Gospel Principles" manual, Chapter 14, under the title of "Priesthood Organization," we read that "Seventies" are described as "special witnesses of Jesus Christ to the world," while "an Apostle" is described as a "special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world."

Below are the fuller quotes in question:

"Seventy

"Seventies are special witnesses of Jesus Christ to the world and assist in building up and regulating the Church under the direction of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (see D&C 107:25, 34, 38, 93–97)."


"Apostle

"An Apostle is a special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world (see D&C 107:23). The Apostles administer the affairs of the Church throughout the world. Those who are ordained to the office of Apostle in the Melchizedek Priesthood are usually set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Each one is given all the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, but only the senior Apostle, who is President of the Church, actively exercises all of the keys. The others act under his direction."

("Manuals: 'Gospel Principles,' Chapter 14: 'Priesthood Organization,'" published 2011, pp. 72–80, from the official website of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," at: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-14-priesthood-organization)
_____


To recap the restorative revelations in this righteously recorded regard:

Part 1

--"SEVENTIES" are identified in the plural as "WITNESSES."
--"AN APOSTLE" is identified in the singular as "A WITNESS."

(emphasis added)


Part 2

--Seventies are special witnesses OF Jesus Christ.
--An Apostle is a special witness OF THE NAME OF Jesus Christ.

(emphasis added)


Part 3

--Seventies are special witnesses of Jesus Christ TO the world.
--An apostle is a special witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ IN ALL the world.

(emphasis added)


Part 4

Now, that we've got that straight.

(further b.s. from the Mormon Church to be added)



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2013 04:36AM by steve benson.

Are there actually 70 guys in "the 70?" Or why it is called that? Why 70? Why not 100? or 50?

Obviously, you've all got it wrong (if you can't hear the sarcasm, it's there)

While on my mission in Korea, the 70 who translated the BOM to Korean visited my mission. He gave an "amazing" talk revealing all kinds of "truth", including

- All of the 12 big guys and the 3 in the presidency had personally seen the big JC... That's why they were "Special Witnesses" They had "literally" seen him and touched the scars in his hands!

- The big JC was the savior for hundreds of worlds, not just ours, he came to ours because earth is the lowest of the low and we wouldn't have believed in him if he hadn't come here, other worlds have to take the story on testimony of their prophets.

There was a whole lot of other stuff that I now recognize as nonsense that he made up as his own doctrine that he believed and was all self important about (I mean he had translated the BOM! He must be special)...

So there you have it, according to an official BOM translator, they really did "witness" Jesus Christ!!!!

"Oaks also told me that he got a "knot" in his heart (his word, which he used indicating with his hand toward his chest) that confirmed to him that Mormon Church scriptures were true."

I once had a special witness that I had eaten contaminated sushi ... spent the day in the Emergency Room. ... although the "knot in the heart" was about a foot lower.