--The Delusion of Religion

Robert M. Pirsig, author of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values," observes, “When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”

Carl Sagan, renowned Pulitzer-prize winning scientist, notes, "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Richard Dawkins, the Charles Siymoni Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University," writes:

"The word 'delusion' in [the] title [of my book, 'The God Delusion,' Houghton Mifflin, 2000] has disquieted some psychiatrists who regard it as a technical term, not to be bandied about. Three of them wrote to me to propose a special term for religious delusion: 'relusion.' Maybe it will catch on.

"But for now I am going to stick with 'delusion,' and I need to justify my use of it. The 'Penguin English Dictionary' defines a delusion as a 'a false belief or impression.' . . . The dictionary supplied with Microsoft Word defines a delusion as 'a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a sympton of psychiatric disorder.' . . . [To quote George Carlin]: 'Religion has actually convinced poeple that there's an invisible man--living in the sky--who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send yo uto live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time . . . But He loves you!'"

Religion is an exercise in delusion.
_____


--The Interrelated Delusions of Mormonism, Christianity and Islam

How does one know that Mormons, Christians and Muslims are delusional?

For an explanation of that question, review the video entitled, well, "How Do We Know that Christians Are Delusional?" It covers Mormonism's delusional "Joe's Story," along with the religiously delusional stories of Mohammed and Jesus:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video7.htm
_____


--Thinking: The Solution to Religious Delusion

Try this on for brain size, from the website, "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?":

"'Understanding Delusion'

"Here are several examples that can help you to understand how religion works in our world today.

"Example 1

"Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

"There is a man who lives at the North Pole.

"He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.

"During the year, he and the elves build toys.

"Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.

"He puts the sack in his sleigh.

"He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.

"He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.

"He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.

"He leaves toys for the children of the household.

"He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.

"He does this all around the world in one night.

"Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

"This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

"But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

"What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

"Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

"Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

"'But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?' I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

"'How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?' I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie "The Santa Clause."

"'How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?' I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

"'Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?' Santa is invisible to security systems.

"'How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?' Santa is timeless.

"'How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

"'Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?' There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

"These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.
Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, 'timelessness' and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.
____


"Now let me show you another example.

"Example 2

"Imagine that I tell you the following story:

"I was in my room one night.

"Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.

"Next thing I know there is an angel in my room. He tells me an amazing story.

"He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.

"On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.

"These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.

"Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.

"Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.

"Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.

"I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things--an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.

"And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!

"I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.

"Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds delusional, doesn't it?

"You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, 'Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?' The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. 'Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?' you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

"Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations--having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

"What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

"If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.
_____


"Example 3

"Imagine that I tell you this story:

"A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.

"A very bright flash of light appeared.

"A voice spoke out one word: 'Read!' The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.

"Then the man asked, 'What should I read?'

"The voice said, 'Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before.'

"The man ran home to his wife.

"While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.

"At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.

"Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as 'revelations in his heart,' sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.

"Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.

"The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.

"[Source: 'Understanding Islam,' by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]

"What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.

"But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

"Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary--as imaginary as flying reindeer.
_____


"If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly--we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" . . . and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

"An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.
_____


"One Final Example:

"Now let me tell you one final story:

"God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.

"Mary and her fiancé, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.

"God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.

"In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel (see Chapter 16) in an attempt to kill Jesus.

"As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: 'I am the way, the truth and the life,' he said (see Chapter 18).

"This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.

"But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.

"His body was placed in a tomb.

"But three days later, the tomb was empty.

"And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.

"Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.

"Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.

"This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.

"The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.

"This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours . . . and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you.
_____


"Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. In other words, there are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, the Christian story is completely imaginary.

"How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that the Christian story is imaginary? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note these facts:

"The miracles are supposed to 'prove' that Jesus is God, but, predictably, these miracles left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today. They all involved faith healings and magic tricks . . . .

"Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today . . . .

"Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered . . . .

"The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions . . .

"And so on.

"In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined.
_____


"Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. I am using solid, verifiable evidence to show you that the Christian story is imaginary. Your rational mind can see the evidence. Four billion non-Christians would be happy to confirm for you that the Christian story is imaginary. However, if you are a practicing Christian, you can probably feel your 'religious mind' overriding both your rational mind and your common sense as we speak. Why? Why were you able to use your common sense to so easily reject the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, but when it comes to the Christian story, which is just as imaginary, you are not?

"Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself:

"Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed?--No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his 'miracles' left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing.

"Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven?--There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.

"You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on 'faith.'

"No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.

"Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?

"For example:

"Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time--otherwise Christians would build pyramids.

"Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing -- otherwise Christians would kill virgins.

"Christians know that when Muslims face Mecca to pray, that it is pointless -- otherwise Christians would face Mecca when they pray.

"Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time--otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession.

"Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. This book, if you will let it, can tell you why.
_____


"A Simple Experiment

"If you are a Christian who believes in the power of prayer, here is a very simple experiment that will show you something very interesting about your faith.

"Take a coin out of your pocket. Now pray sincerely to Ra:

"'Dear Ra, almighty sun god, I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Ra's name I pray, Amen.'

"Now flip the coin. Chances are that you won't get past the fifth or sixth flip and the coin will land tails.

"What does this mean? Most people would look at this data and conclude that Ra is imaginary. We prayed to Ra, and Ra did nothing. We can prove that Ra is imaginary (at least in the sense of prayer-answering ability) by using statistical analysis. If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Ra each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. Ra has absolutely no effect on the coin no matter how much we pray.

"Even if we find a thousand of Ra's most faithful believers and ask them to do the praying/flipping, the results will be the same. Therefore, as rational people, we conclude that Ra is imaginary. We look at Ra in the same way that we look at Leprechauns, Mermaids, Santa and so on. We know that people who believe in Ra are delusional.

"Now I want you to try the experiment again, but this time I want you to pray to Jesus Christ instead of Ra. Pray sincerely to Jesus like this:

"'Dear Jesus, I know that you exist and I know that you hear and answer prayers as you promise in the Bible. I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.'

"Now flip the coin. Once again, after the fifth or sixth flip, the coin will land tails.

"If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Jesus each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. It is not like there are two laws of probability--one for Christians who pray and the other for non-Christians. There is only one law of probability because prayers have zero effect. Jesus has no effect on our planet no matter how much we pray. We can prove that conclusively using statitical analysis.
_____


"Key Point

"It is not like there are two laws of probability--one for Christians who pray and the other for non-Christians. There is only one law of probability because prayers have zero effect. Jesus has no effect on our planet no matter how much we pray.
If you are a Christian, watch what is happening inside your mind right now. The data is absolutely identical in both experiments. With Ra you looked at the data rationally and concluded that Ra is imaginary. But with Jesus... something else will happen. In your mind, you are already coming up with a thousand rationalizations to explain why Jesus did not answer your prayers:

"It is not his will.

"He doesn't have time.

"I didn't pray the right way.

"I am not worthy.

"I do not have enough faith.

"I cannot test the Lord like this.

"It is not part of Jesus' plan for me

"And on and on and on...

"One rationalization that you may find yourself developing is particularly interesting. You may say to yourself: 'Well, of course Jesus doesn’t answer me when I pray about a coin toss, because it is too trivial.' Where did this rationalization come from? If you read what Jesus says about prayer in the Bible . . . Jesus does not ever say, 'Don't pray to me about coin tosses.' Jesus clearly says he will answer your prayers, and he puts no boundaries on what you may pray for. You invented this rationalization out of thin air.

"If you are a Christian who is offended by the notion of praying about a coin toss, then let's try this instead. Get down on your knees right now and pray as follows:

"'Dear Jesus, son of God, the almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. Please hear our heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer and fulfill your promises in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19, Mark 9:23, Luke 1:37, James 5:15-16 and many other places.

"'We pray knowing that when you answer this prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. In your name we pray, Amen.'

"Will every case of cancer be gone tomorrow? Of course not. If you are a believer, you can create dozens of rationalizations for this unanswered prayer. But that does not change the reality of the situation.

"You are an expert at creating rationalizations for Jesus. The reason you are an expert is because Jesus does not answer any of your prayers (see section 1). The reason why Jesus does not answer any of your prayers is because Jesus is imaginary. We can find dozens of pieces of evidence to demonstrate that the Christian story is imaginary. . . .

"What this simple experiment shows us is fascinating. When we pray to Ra and nothing happens over thousands of trials, we look at the data rationally and we conclude that Ra is imaginary. But when you pray to Jesus and nothing happens, you do not reach the same conclusion. Instead, you try to rationalize all the reasons why Jesus did not answer your prayers. Ask yourself this simple
question: why the difference? Why do you, as a 'believer,' behave in a completely irrational way?

"[You can be helped] to see where the difference is coming from. . . . [Y]ou [can] see what is happening inside your brain. To begin expanding your understanding, begin with . . . any of these starting points:

". . . [E]xplor[ing] the central question . . . Why won't God heal amputees?

}Other points]:

"Did God really inspire the Bible, or is the Bible a collection of fictional stories written by primitive men? . . .

"Was Jesus God, or just a man? . . .

"Is Christianity a delusion, or not? . . .

"What is God's plan? . . .

"Are you a religious leader? . . ."

("Understanding Delusion," on "Why God Won't Heal Amputees," at: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/your-delusion.htm)

*********************


Are you delusional?

:)



Edited 20 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 12:43PM by steve benson.

Yes, I'm delusional. At least I strongly believe that I am delusional and I can't be talked out of that belief. But not about any of the above.

If someone is able to see the mythology of other cultures and people, they ought to see the pattern that humans make up religious mythology. Oddly, they think their own culure/religion is the one that isn't acting human and has real myths and inside knowledge.

It took an anthropology class for me to understand what you just outlined in your examples. It's not just everyone else who is mislead! I'm the same. My religion was just like all the other religions people have had for thousands of years. I wasn't unique, special or chosen. I was human with a human religion. The role of religion was the same in my culture as any other. It provided the glue, lessons and expectations for the society...but it was arbitrary and full of delusions.

Many people have a hard time extrapolating universal human behavior to themselves. They remain delusional about their own religions while seeing the obvious about the others.

Why does it thrive? Maybe it is the calming effect of not worrying so much about being mortal. Maybe it is the centering or buzz they get from rituals (how many times do you have to go to Mass before you figure out how it ends?). Maybe it is the comfort of being with others you can support and count on. Maybe humans need this stuff for making rites of passage throughout life significant. Maybe they like the symbols and the mood- emotion inducing feelings. But why do they add the BS into it all? Easy answers? I really don't know. In this day and age we shouldn't have to make crap up. It's delusional.

(Isn't it that time of year for you to share your comments about Flynn's The Trouble With Christmas? It's one of my favorites. Encore!)

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,358736,358736#msg-358736

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,356952#msg-356952

--And, yes, the Santa Delusion Story will be posted up on RfM's housetop pretty soon. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 12:45AM by steve benson.

Pointing out the flaws in other peoples culture makes some people feel superior to the other cultures. It also makes it easier to wage war against them if you can classify them as being inferior to your own tribe. As soon as you point out the problems with your own tribe you become the outsider, the threat, the troublemaker to be squashed and silenced.

What is the effing point of all these atheist, anti-religion posts?

Okay, I get it. You don't like religion.

This is a Recovery From MORMONISM board. Yes, it's a religion, but Steve, your posts on actual, historical Mormonism are MUCH more interesting than this JIHAD against religion in general, which seems much more fitting for some atheist board.

Seriously, aren't all these endless reason good/delusional religion bad threads against RFM Board policy, i.e., no religious wars?

This is a RECOVERY board. I get that some exmos, many in fact, turn atheist after the church burns them out. Count me as one of you. I'm an atheist, but maybe after only a couple of years of questioning and a couple of years out, and drinking and suffering panic attacks since early 2009, I am really interested in HELP and SUPPORT.

If these sorts of threads support people, and I guess for some exmos they do, or at least there's some sort of therapeutic point to all these anti-religion posts, then I can ignore them. I usually do, but what exactly is the point in these jihadic anti-religion threads? Reading them I feel like I'm going through posts on the Atheism forum at About.com.

Anyway, best of luck, and thanks for all the fish.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 12:36AM by derrida.

I can relate, derrida, to the idea that there's a time and place for everything. Thing is that on this board not everybody's time and place match up! Some people are laughing, some grieving, some just receiving their first shocks from new information they've received concerning Mormonism, some sick of/from religion, others desperate to find a new church home and in a myriad of other states and phases in their exit process.

When I first came here I was desperate to know that the top leaders weren't aware of all the inconsistencies and discrepancies and certainly not that they engineer a fraud. I felt I could have settled for them not knowing but I felt I just couldn't stand to know it was all deliberate lies. I had, unfortunately, had a severely negative experience in the (EV) church I attended after I left the Mormon Church. I found that I couldn't stand to read posts that quoted scripture (which seemed to happen a lot back then, especially in debates about the Bible vs the BoM, queries about anachronisms in the BoM, etc). You couldn't always tell up front which posts that was going to be so it could hit you in the face. I also seemed to sop up the "mood" of the posters and if there was an argument thread or people were raucous in expressing their contrary opinions I would feel pummelled and upset. A lot of that came from being immersed in "be nice" religion where even a difference of opinion felt like a big fight. Language - well, we won't even go there. Suffice to say my delicate little ears got thoroughly swamped with many terms I'd either never heard before (some people are most inventive with strong language!) or else didn't especially want to read or hear.

I learned quickly that everyone here has different needs. What I don't want to read someone else may precisely need at the same moment. Also, both the OP on a thread and each responder may have different needs and purposes and writing a post, starting a thread, replying to someone with whom you disagree can all be an important part of someone's recovery. Learning to state one's opinion and being challenged about it is a useful exercise for many of us who have been taught to be "nice" at all costs; i.e., subsuming our own identity or opinion, or who have not had much practice in speaking up for ourselves or expressing our own needs.

If we remember, as posters, lurkers, thread-starters, responders, debaters, supporters, that this whole thing is a journey of endless miles for each of us and that everybody's in charge of meeting their own needs, that could help us to accept what gets posted here, whether it be out of someone's academic interest or strong emotional need or any point in between, and to make our own choice of whether to engage or ignore and move on as we need.

I don't see it as being up to the OP of a thread to consider all the possible needs of everyone who may read their post but as being up to the readers to select the material that's going to be in line with what they want or need to get from RfM.

Regarding Steve's posts, I note he doesn't entice us in with playful sub lines and then spring the atheism stuff on us. You can usually well tell from the specific and full subject lines of a Benson post what the content of the post is going to be. (Hint: If it's about atheism, Christmas, Santa or religion it's going to be controversial). :)

There are hundreds of posts by other participants and a few of Steve's. I don't see how this makes it impossible for people to skip this type of post if they know it's not going to be happy or fulfilling or enlightening for them. I go by my own mood - some days I enjoy a lively exchange, other days I'm better off avoiding it. Again, it's all about what *I* need, which I'm in charge of. I try not to expect other posters to look after my needs (how could they tell what they are, even those who "know" me?) I think I'd be waiting a long time for that degree of understanding in cyberspace.

Maybe it is a "recovery" need of Steve's to discuss these topics or maybe it's just a big interest of his or maybe he enjoys the cut and thrust of a passionate debate or maybe a little of each, and more. That's what's so good about this discussion board - that there's room for all of us - the board can expand to take care of thousands of posters and their individual interests and needs (until the bb explodes that is, which could happen if bandwidth issues kick in!)

So, derrida, if you need support, maybe try expressing that in a post or two. I find that that is an area where the board usually shines. And support yourself by not reading Benson through the holidays, if that's what it takes. I find, too, that I feel support through reading the advice and assistance offered to others who post about their tough challenges. I feel a lot of respect and regard and warmth for all the unknown people who offer care and concern to strangers on this board. I know that people do fall through the cracks. The trick is to hang in there and find ways to help ourselves get stronger, with a little help along the way if we're lucky.

Just so you know, I read your posts and enjoy your comments. It's just that, as others have said today, there isn't time to read and respond to every post or even a majority of them. You never know how many read what you write and relate to you, feel for you, wish you well, and appreciate your participation.

I like this board with Steve on it. So much interesting stuff and lively debate. It's just that, depending on how you're feeling, you have to be judicious in what you choose to read, and that is entirely within your own control. A word to the wise, though, depending on how delicate you're feeling, you may need to duck during Christmas, and likely Easter too, if Benson's around. Part of the holiday tradition around here is for him to discuss these types of topics. A lot of people like it, some not so much. That's just the way it goes. There's lots of room for all of us here. Which is the way I like it!

Um, if you look at the current post that has prompted your outburst, it explicitly mentions (in some detail, no less) foundational, delusional Mormon beliefs.

It appears that you wish to define and limit "recovery" on your terms and silence that which doesn't fit your personal model. And if you don't get that concession (but instead are presented with a more systemic approach to recovery from Mormonism that that happens to gore religionists' sacred cows in the process, due to the close proximity of their own idols to the Mormon bull), then you wage verbal "JIHAD" (your term and emphasis) against atheists who don't style their posts in ways you deem acceptable.

I find it interesting how some complainers here want to box out and ignore religion's obvious interelationships. That way at least some of them then don't have to look at the bigger picture (which includes perhaps examining their own religious preferences). Instead, they demand that everyone here stick to a formula of bashing deluded Mormonism while kindly leaving Mormonism's deluded cousins out of the interlocking puzzle set.

That's not how it works, nor should it be how it works. And, while I appreciate that you say you're an atheist, in this case, I think you're a wrong-headed one. :)



Edited 28 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:44AM by steve benson.

Are you saying that, because you have not asked that question as part of your recovery, or that you have answered it to your satisfaction, that it shouldn't be a valid question to ask or discuss?

<<<What is the effing point of all these atheist, anti-religion posts?>>>

Religion is completely unnecessary. It accomplishes no good whatsoever. Religion does no good thing that cannot be accomplished by purely secular means.

What, then, is the point of religion? To control people. To control their thoughts, desires, and therefore their actions. Religions require the suspension of critical thinking skills. There is nothing moral about scapegoating. Christianity, especially, is immoral and detrimental to human progress.

For someone to leave the mormon church only to join another religion indicates they didn't learn everything they needed to learn from their prior experience, and if they haven't learned everything they needed to learn about their prior experience they cannot truly say they have recovered.

And this is a recovery from mormonism site.

The same standards we applied to mormonism, when applied universally, also destroy western religions. Choosing not to apply those standards universally is dishonest.

Religion is completely unnecessary.- i agree
It accomplishes no good whatsoever.- i disagree
Religion does no good thing that cannot be accomplished by purely secular means.- i agree!

Let me clarify:

If religions do any good, it's only because people tend to do good things. They do them, not because of their religion, but because people are actually pretty decent most of the time.

Any good that religions purportedly do is really just an exploitation of human beings' tendency to do good. So it's not really the religion that does any good.

The fact that the religion attempts to take credit for the good deeds is bad. So the net result (at least in my mind) is that religions do no good whatsoever.

...they gave us breakfast cereals.

The Oneida and Amana colonies gave us household products.

Christianity was involved in many great works of art and architecture.

Religion, like any other human enterprise, has its successes and failures.

Did you see the other thread the some wards are banning Santa? Does this throw a wrinkle in the Santa-Style Delusion bubble? Is the very thought rich with irony?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:52AM by thingsithink.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:45AM by steve benson.

Perhaps there have been high level debates within the church on "delusion" as it pertains to Santa. And those who argued that any belief in Santa, however slight and innocuous, was "delusional" under any given definition won out. And, therefore, Santa could be tolerated under absolutely no circumstances!

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Hi Ho Silver Away! :)
hey see how i am cutting down the caps and exclamations? aren't you proud of me? :)

well Steve will you accept this definition? c'mon i know you want to. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 01:14PM by bignevermo.

"here is another one... THEN I AM OFF THIS DAMN HORSE!!:)"

(emphasis added, since you like caps so much)

("LOL!!!," posted by "bignevermo." on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 5 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357316,357417#msg-357417}


"Don't try to understand them,
Just rope, throw and brand 'em . . . "

Yeehaw!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl2fONPgIJE

why is that? what is the harm? why not?
you hide behind your keyboard spouting what some may consider great "research" and presenting info...why wont you simply give a definition that you will accept? whats the matter scared? :)
Yippy Kay Yea..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:43PM by steve benson.

it must be because you dont believe it will go well for you. Ok i can see that.... see ya around you arrogant condescending absolutist!

See you around, indeed. In the meantime, please seek treatment (if not from a psychiatrist, at least from a reading coach).

From an earlier thread;

Bigneverread . . .

It appears you and I weren't looking at the same post.

I think you night need to pay a bit more attention to what you read. Let's take it step-by-step in demonstrating why.
_____


**Religion as an Environmental Factor in Mental Disorder

You categorically claimed:

“Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.”

Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:

(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and

(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor.
_____


**Not All Sources I Cited Said That All Religious People Suffer from Religion Delusion

Again, you categorically claimed:

“NONE of your sources make the claims you are...that ALL religious people have a dilusional disorder. NONE of your sources say that...only YOU do... thats my point . . . .”

In fact, quotations I provided from those sources show that they didn't While the theme of my post was that religious believers are certainly in many cases cases delusionally disordered, not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.

For instance, the cited “Washington Times” article referenced a BBC report on the influence that the neurological wiring of the human brain plays in producing religious-like sensations. The article said nothing about religious delusional disorders hampering those in the study group; rather, it reported on organic brain function that naturally produces “strong religious,” “mystical” or “holy vision” sensations--in believers and non-believers alike--and which can be misinterpreted by believers and non-believers alike as something other than what they are.

Here's the relevant portion of that article in that regard:

"Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Advances in “neurotheology” have prompted some researchers to claim they can induce the kind of holy visions prophets may have experienced--even in those who are not religious believers.”

(as quoted by Mark Smith, “Temporal Lobe Epilepsy,” in “Set Free!,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations; the
same news article is also available from the U.K. “Telegraph,” at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3306312/Holy-visions-elude-scientists.html)


Parenthetically, that above news article did mention the case of Seventh-day Adventists founder Ellen White's sensational religious feelings, but reported that her delusions in that regard were a result of temporal lobe epilepsy, which the article noted supported the scientific finding that the temporal lobes are the origination point in the brain for so-called “religious” experiences.

There were other sources, however, which I referenced and quoted in which connections were made, to one degree or another, between religious indoctrination and religion delusional disorder.
_____


**Delusionary Cult Efforts to Rein In the Non-Deluded

I quoted from a source suggesting that some people not suffering from pre-existing religious delusion disorder can nonetheless be influenced toward development of such a mental malady through efforts by religious groups (in this case, cults) to snare and retain them.

Note was made, for instance, of family break-ups that occur when resistant family members refuse, despite pressure from other family members, to accept religious delusions as being anything but real, having concluded that they themselves are not delusional:

“Problems arise when a partner discovers that they are not delusional. When family members refuse to accept the delusions the result is often a breakup of the family unit. There is often no middle ground for a delusion believer and a non-delusion thinker.”

In further regard to religious cults, I quoted from that same source which pointed out who religious cults can be involved in the perpetration of religious mental disorders among their followers, with the cults denying, of course, that they are acting like a cult:

“ . . . [S]ome cults don’t perceive themselves as a cult and don’t understand why they’re not accepted by mainstream religions.”

(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)at.
_____


**Delusion-Driven Religious/Cultural Group Efforts at Creating Delusion

I also cited a source which suggested religious delusions can be created within the circles of “religious and cultural groups” (meaning in churches and other institutions) when, through exertion of cultural and religious influence, the mental state of individuals can give way to the eventual development of religious-rooted mind disorders that, in any other context, would be considered to be a form of mental illness:

“Given these descriptors of religious delusion, the question is then asked: 'Why do religions and cultural groups get the exemption? A mental disorder is only a disorder in particular contexts?'”

(Doug Reardon, “Religious and Cultural Exemptions to Delusional Disorder,” January 2011, in “Think Atheist,” at: http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/religious-and-cultural)


In this regard, poster “dagny” seemed to have grasped from the OP what you appear to have missed; namely, that modern-day religious groups do, in fact, popularize mental illness-producing beliefs among otherwise normal-minded members, which then can lead to the development of religious delusion disorder.

As “dagny” observed:

“Is religion a mental illness? For some reason, cultural consensus appears to decide this. What's the difference between these two things: You talk to Jesus before you go to sleep (popular, accepted by consensus to not be 'crazy.') Or--You talk to invisible flying alligators under your bed (hello, welcome to your room in the asylum). Seriously, is there any difference? If you think there is, I'd like to see the proof, other than the fact that one is accepted and one is not.”

(“That's the way I've come to view it too, RAG,” posted by: “dagny,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, “ 3 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,356952#msg-356952)


Indeed, underscoring “dagny's” observation is one of the links in my OP, headlined, in part: “. . . God Myths Have Survived Because Smart People Are Very Good at Rationalizing Things That They Came to Believe for Non-Smart Reasons,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” 11 July 2011, at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/


On cultural pressure to foster religious delusion, I also cited a source referencing a deluded “religious subculture” in Haiti, where mentally-disordered religion is practiced by that culture in mentally dysfunctional ways which results in the eventual inculcation in group members of strange beliefs and practices. (Please note that there was no mention made of religious delusion in that particular excerpt afflicting all religious members of Haiti society):

“The cultural relativity of 'delusions'--most evident where the beliefs shown are typical of the person's subculture or religion yet would be viewed as strange or delusional by the dominant culture--can force complex choices to be made in diagnosis and treatment.

“An example could be that of a Haitian immigrant to the United States who believed in voodoo. If that person became aggressive toward neighbors issuing curses or hexes--believing that death is imminent at the hands of those neighbors--a question arises. The belief is typical of the individual's subculture, so the issue is whether it should be diagnosed or treated. If it were to be treated, whether the remedy should come through Western medicine or be conducted through voodoo shamanistic treatment is the problem to be solved."

(“Delusional Disorder,” in “Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders,” at: http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#ixzz1fSoBP5Xb)


As to religious and other societal cultures, I quoted from a source that makes note of the influence of both of those pressure groups on the mindset of individuals within those cultures to accept certain beliefs as normal.

". . . [P]ersonal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures."

(Shivani Chopra, MD; Raheel A. Khan, DO; James A. Bourgeois, OD, MD, MPA; and Donald M, Hilty, MD, "Delusional Disorder," updated 10 March 2011, in "Medscape Reference: Drugs, Diseases and Procedures," at: http://reference.medscape.com/)
_____


**I Didn't Cite the Cause of Religious Delusion? I'm Afraid You Must be Deluded

You asserted that I “actually left out a key part of the article Steve...'the Cause... "...which is disingenuous.”

What you actually did in your inattentive claim was to leave in the decidedly inaccurate impression that I did not address the causation issue at all--which was disingenuous on your part.

Please recall that I asked you to review the entire post (which included the links to all the cited sources). Had you read carefully (which you seem to have not), you would have noticed that, in fact, I quoted from several sources/articles relative to the cause(s) of religious delusion disorder:

“Traditionally, religious delusion, with or without hallucinations, has been associated with schizophrenia, affective psychoses, complex partial seizure disorder and drug-induced psychoses. Recent reports have associated religious delusion with epileptic postictal psychosis, psychoses characterized by self-inflicted injuries, psychoses induced by general medical illnesses and mystical religious fervor.”

(The authors responsible for this above assessment, however, note--as I quoted--that "[l]ittle is known about the clinical features associated with religious delusion and how religious delusion may differ across various diagnostic groups.. . . Although religious delusion has regularly been reported throughout the history of neuropsychiatry, surprisingly, there is no systematic study of religious delusion in unselected populations of psychiatric patients").

(M. Raja, A. Azzoni and L. Lubich, “Religious Delusion: An Observational Study of Religious Delusion in a Population of 313 Acute Psychiatric In-Patients,” in “Schwetzer Archive for Neurology and Psychiatry," 151, January 2000, p. 22, at: http://www.sanp.ch/pdf/2000/2000-01/2000-01-058.PDF)


Below are some more quotes that I provided on religious delusion causation:

"Not all of these cases are based on religious delusions but scientists . . . have already proven there is a pathological connection between schizophrenia and religious delusion. Treatment is iffy at best with these folks because when they take their medication, they realize they aren't as 'religious' as they were off their medication so their treatment often fails. Then there are those who comply with their treatment plan and realize that their obsessive-compulsive religious thoughts and behaviors were a result of their psychiatric diagnosis. . . .

"Unfortunately, many don't get help because of their pre-conceived religious perception. Then the problem exacerbates and often their peers continue to egg them on when they need serious psychiatric help. The line has to be drawn at some point where successful intervention can be made. So often with religious folk, that line gets extended beyond a normal mental state where treatment can be perceived as satanic."

"[The people studied] had already been diagnosed as schizophrenic and psychotic with religious delusions . . . [with] study [being] done specifically on the religiously deluded. There have been a minimum of 78 peer-reviewed research studies published on religious delusion that were cited . . . so the case is not an isolated one."

(“Religious Delusions Are a Common Symptom of Schizophrenia,” posted “Medicine*Woman,” in “Sciforums.com,” at: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51361&page=3):


“ . . . [S]chizophrenia is a better and simpler explanation for all the people--past and present--who have claimed that [the] Bible god spoke to them. . . .


“'In paranoid schizophrenia, the patient becomes convinced of beliefs at odds with reality hears voices that aren't there or see images that exist nowhere but in his mind. . . .The voices the patients heard were therefore as real to them as the conversations in the hallways they passed through en route to the lab. . . . The seeming authenticity of the voices means that people with schizophrenia can be barraged by commands that, they are convinced, come from God or Satan. That inference is not illogical; who else can speak to you, unseen, from inside your mind?”

(Mark Smith, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations,” in “Set Free!,” at: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)


“Joseph Smith displayed classic symptoms of the grandiose form of delusional disorder. He was successful at attracting other people with delusional disorder and convincing them of his visions. This core band of nascent Mormon leaders (all suffering from delusional disorder) were successful at passing on the delusional gene to their children through widespread polygamy in the early Mormon church years.”

(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at: http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)
_____


**A Summary of My Post

Based on the sources I cited and examples I presented in the OP, religious delusions can occur as a result of:

--pre-exisiting individual mental dysfunction;

--external religious/cultural influence brought to bear on individuals who are not necessarily presently suffering from pre-set psychosis;

--the fostering by religious groups of delusional beliefs that encourage their members to interpret naturally-produced “mystical” experiences within their brains as being actual “holy vision” or “prophetic” communications from God when, in fact, they are the result of neurological realities organically produced within both healthy or injured brains; and

--religious indoctrination that includes standard teaching of visionary tales from canonized Christian scripture that are presented as actual events, which teaching can have a decidedly negative effect on people who conclude that they are entitled to the same kind of alleged visionary contacts with God.
_____


**You, Me and the Research Thing

Finally, you accused me of not doing my own research with this “btw” claim of yours:

“ . . . [Y]ou may have read and copy and pasted (which is what I did) but you did not do the research that you cite! so to say 'do my own research you are being disingenuous at best and are using a red herring.”

When I said I did my own research, it was certainly clear enough as to what I meant; namely, that I source-searched for published studies, papers, articles and other findings which I then cited in the OP. My statement that I had done my own research in that regard is hardly misleading within that context, as evidenced by the fact that the sources I came across through my own research efforts I then quoted, sourced and linked.

In addition, in terms of personal research, I have read in its entirety, then dissected section by section, a topic-related review of clinical research on this subject (one which, by the way, I have already linked to you in this current thread). It was a published paper recommended to me by another poster, as I noted here:

(“Koenig the Seminarian: A Barnstorming Believer Who Wants to Be Taken Scientifically Seriously in His Pitch for the Mental Health Benefits of Supernaturalism,” posted by Steve Benson,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 29 November 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,353070,353070#msg-353070)


Moreover, in related threads on this topic, I have quoted at length from my personal reading of resource material in my own library--most recently from the works of Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer on the generation of in-brain “religious” experiences, as noted here:

(“How the Realities of Science Trump the Myths of Religion in Providing Non-Deluded Hope for a Better World,” posted by Steve Benson, on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 3 December 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357028)


But since you have chosen to make an issue of research in your reply, please point me to examples of your own multiple-source-searching research efforts on these topics, as demonstrated in this thread and in past threads. I think I may have missed them. :)

If you can't produce them, that's OK.

I'll cut you a little break: What books have you read on the subject lately? :)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:55PM by steve benson.

**Not All Sources I Cited Said That All Religious People Suffer from Religion Delusion
ok well then show me 1 source

you think i cant comprehend this subject...
when you say:
Not All sources I cited said that ALL Religious People suffer from Religion Delusion:
That means you have at least 1 source that will confirm your assertion. show me!

this is the question you keep avoiding! show me one source a reputable one...that states:

All religious people suffer from religious delusions
and try not to use a source from another BB or this one.
when you say that religion is a delusion...first of all there is religion so you are wrong right there... but if you say religion is delusional... that encompasses ALL religion
you accuse me of not being able to comprehend... but it seems that i comprehend more than you if you think that religion is a delusion...or that the statement:
religion is delusional does not encompass all religion.
so i ask again
what definition of delusion will you accept? hmmm?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 03:49PM by bignevermo.

Perhaps professional help can be of assistance to you in following through on your public pronouncement to dismount--one of these days. :)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 03:50PM by steve benson.

no answer means you cant back up your claims!! that's a shame Steve... it has happened before<<sigh>> i hope it doesn't happen again... you might start to lose some of your following! :(

"Hi-yo, Silver! Away!" :)
Thank Lone Ranger for that expression!

No self control.

Medic!!

Super Glue dissolvant, please.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 03:58PM by steve benson.

Holy Shit! I loved the Carlin quote: "But he still loves you." funniest I've heard in a long time.

Who cares what you think about religion? Seriously, get a life.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 03:38PM by Nightingale.

It is very simple. Those who believe, believe. Those who don't, don't. Neither side will change the mind of the other side. the word that comes to mind is futile. And stupid.

I once believed. Now I don't. Having a meaningful dialogue with other human beings was instrumental in dissolving the boundaries of indoctrination my family and culture had constructed for me without my consent.

People change sides all the time.

Right on! Plus there are some damn funny conversations. I laugh constantly at the funny posts, comments. And I learn.