I posted this story as a comment on another topic a long time ago, but I was thinking about it again today. This conversation with my brother basically ended all of our discussions on mormonism several months ago.

My brother's favorite piece of archaelogical evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon is the Los Lunas stone in New Mexico, which, despite human contamination, has been estimated to be a couple of thousand years old. I gave him the grace to start from that assumption, that the stone probably dated to Nephite times.

So we have a list of the Ten Commandments written in Hebrew in New Mexico that dates to Book of Mormon times, scientifically confirmed. Sounds pretty good to a TBM.

Now let's look further. First off, the guy who discovered the stone was a known fraud, who was confirmed to have fabricated archaelogical evidence in other cases. Sound like a certain man with last name Hoffman to you? My brother also swears by the Salamander Letters to show that you can't trust scientific analysis (though he swears to the scientific analysis [which isn't really scientific - just an expert's guess] of the Los Lunas stone... interesting).

But I'll allow him the leeway to assume that just because the guy was a known fraud who fabricated evidence doesn't mean that this stone is necessarily a fraud. Let's dig deeper...

The writings on the Los Lunas stone use a combination of Samaritan and Greek letters. Greek? That's interesting. The Book of Mormon says nothing about Greek. I thought the Greek didn't conquer Palestine until more than 200 years after Lehi and Mulek left Jerusalem! Well, says my brother, Greece and Palestine were pretty close together, with roads connecting. Only an ignorant fool would think that there wasn't cultural interaction before Alexander.

But the language of the stone uses good Greek grammar, and makes Samaritan mistakes that would be natural grammatical mistakes for a person of Greek learning, and unthinkable for a Hebrew. Doesn't this mean the person who wrote it was most likely not a Hebrew? Speculation, says my brother.

But what of the language. The particular combination of characters matches perfectly a Samaritan-Greek dialect that has been discovered in Alexandria - a city founded by Alexander in the year 331 BC, long after any known Book of Mormon exodus. This dialect was well known by the fraud who discovered the stone. Brother, says my brother, you have been duped by people who claim absolute knowledge and ignore scientific facts that go against their stubborn beliefs.

Touche, says I.

"Since nothing compelling was on TV that lazy Saturday afternoon, Zemron, the noted Nephite stone carving champion, decided to hike into the middle of absolutely nowhere, and carve the Ten Commandments in a 30 ton rock. Just to further challenge himself, he inscribed the massive boulder in a language that he had never heard of."

Pertaining the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone. I have found that "Mormons" hearts are in the right place, (many of them, not all) don't do their homework....

I have provided links to other sources concerning the Los Lunas Stone.

T H E L OS L U NA S , N E W M E X IC O ,
DECALOGUE

Thomas F. McDaniel, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus
The Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Wynnewood, Pennsylvania

http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/LosLunas10.pdf


Why Los Lunas Cannot Be A Fake

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_loslunas.html


The Los Lunas Stone indeed is authentic. The matter concerning Samaritan and Greek languages is easily explained-if one has studied the noted similarities between Hebrew,Greek,Phoenician and the Israelite related language of the Samaritans descending from the former Northern Israelite Kingdom, both before and after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed and dispersed amongst the worlds nations. All mentioned languages are Hebrew or strongly rooted in Hebrew. Hence why Christ and His priesthood ( Paul and Timothy to name two) preached to the Greeks.

To further back my point, Christ said: I come not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15:24. Christ didn't come to all the people the earth, only to all the lost sheep Israelites scattered all over the earth. See John 10:16 and Ezekiel 34:6-12... better idea read whole chapter of Ezekiel 34.

The Modern Jews have no problem with the Los Lunas Stone being in America.

Israel National News Article On Los Lunas Stone.
Biblical Scriptural Possibilites

The Tamar Yonah Show
by Tamar Yonah

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4409

The common denominator for the Los Lunas Stone, is all above mentioned languages, originated from pure Hebrew, over time they changed. The Greek language is Hebrew flip around backwards on the page, with the exceptions of a few Greek alphabet letters (about 3-4) being of their own invention. Otherwise what is Greek to me, just happens to be a literally twisted form of Hebrew.

The Phoenician Language, also is Ancient Hebrew.

God Bless and Happy Searching!

Kenneth Feder does not agree with your claim. http://books.google.com/books?id=xmDnhPNLwYwC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=false

I don't know why folks like "Wordsmith 1" are resurrecting old threads (I invariably click on them if it's something interesting, and then I see I've already commented over a year ago).

As I noted, a member of the Mormon Batallion may have been responsible (although Hugh Nibley himself pronounced it a fraud). Those soldiers are known to have passed by the area, and several had a passing familiarity with Greek and Hebrew. That, of course, is only speculation.

The easiest way to debunk nonsense like this is common sense. Okay, it's barely within the realm of reason that a Phoenician ship made a one-way trans-Atlantic crossing, but what in the hell were they doing in the middle of New Mexico?

Case closed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2012 02:54AM by SL Cabbie.

I have that same problem.

New Mexico was underwater at one time or another. Carlsbad Caverns, 200 miles SE of Los Lunas, is a coral reef.

The crest of the Sandia Mtn., east of Albuquerque is composed of the same rock that is 50,000 feet below Albuquerque.

I've worked on the road between Freedom WY (Star Valley) and Wayan, ID and there are tons of fossilized sea life in the cut banks.

Therefore; ocean access to these areas were possible....... oh, never mind, that access was there millions of years ago, that goes against the earth age beliefs of the mormom community.

"Hebrew, Greek, Phoenician and the Israelite related language of the Samaritans... All mentioned languages are Hebrew or strongly rooted in Hebrew."

Horseshit! Greek is Indo-European and is NOT "strongly rooted in" (whatever *that* means) the other languages, which are all Semitic. Moron.

Wordsmith1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why Los Lunas Cannot Be A Fake
>
> http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_loslunas.html

At this site he makes the claim:

"The above inscription cannot be a fake for the following
reasons. The actual time of discovery of the inscription is not
known but was known by the locals as far back as the 1850's."

But he gives no evidence to back up that claim.

The old unsupported factoid trick.

The inscription is a fraud, period, and it may well have been carved by one of the members of the Mormon Batallion which was known to have passed through that area.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,98088

RFM regular Jesus Smith mentions the issue of "diffusion," and in this instance he means "transoceanic hyper-diffusion." This concept refers to claims of extensive Old World/New World contact and trade with the "diffusion" of domesticated plants and animals and technologies as a result. In my reply on this thread, I quoted the Smithsonian Institute where there are no claims of absolute knowledge of anything, only reasonable scientific evidence that suggests nothing of the sort happened because of the sheer impossibility of a transoceanic voyage in pre-Columbian times.

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html

>Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.

MichaelM's link is also noteworthy...

http://www.badarchaeology.net/forgotten/los_lunas.php

>Viewed dispassionately, the Los Lunas inscription is a clear, but well constructed forgery (for its day). Despite the claims of high antiquity, there are features of the text (such as the mixing of letter forms between two separate alphabets) that are much more likely to derive from the work of a modern forger than from an ancient Hebrew or Samaritan scribe. The evidence for its origin is poor, but a comparison with the Bat Creek Stone suggests that it was a Mormon forgery. The ‘Mormon Battalion’, which was part of the US Army during the Mexican War, is known to have marched from Santa Fe down the Rio Grande Valley, passing close by, and it is possible that this is the date of the inscription.

Finally, I suggest you buy your brother a world globe and sit down with him and discuss the logistics of a voyage across the Atlantic. Point to the location of New Mexico as well, and ask why a group of sailors would engage in the sort of long distance march through a desert landscape to fashion this inscription.

Regarding the postulated Mormon Battalion creation of the Stone; my research is interpreting the Mormon Battalion's route. The Main Command - travelling south along the west bank of the Rio Grande - camped just north of los Chavez - across from Tome - on the night of 26 October 1846. During a mid-day stop at the Lunas family settlement, Col Cooke learned that he prior night the Navajos had driven off some thousands of sheep from the Lunas family, driving them off into the desert to the west. (Army commander Lt P. St George Cooke's official journal entry for 26 Oct).
The Navajos in the area were aggressive and on 11 November, surrounded and nearly killed a small group of Army regulars. http://www.chargeofthedragoons.com/category/by-year/mexican-war/
As the MoBat started off in the morning, Cooke had demoted a sergeant down to private for not getting his platoon ready for morning roll call. (Daniel Tyler, Concise History of the Mormon Battalion, Chapter 13; 26 October)
Thus, the area was extremely dangerous and Cooke was not booking his new command 'doing their own thing.' He was working to bring military discipline to the group and reporting for duty or sick call was one of his earliest demands upon the Mormons.
Turning now to the distances involved:
The MoBat arrived in camp about 3 PM. Sundown at los Chavez was at 5:20 PM (Source: http://skyviewcafe.com/ for Lat 34.7424, Long -106.7508 on 26 Oct 1846 which is my best approximation for the evening camp location)
From Los Chavez out to "Mystery Mountain" is (direct line) 13.6 miles. This gives a round trip distance of over 27 miles. Their average rate of travel was about 2 mph afoot. Assuming they (you'd need more than one person involved, yes?) use mules, the average rate of travel can be bumped to perhaps 4 mph - but this is going on in the night time which would slow them back down. (I note here that my research shows General Kearny, an experienced dragoon leader, during his return to Ft Leavenworth from California rarely exceeded 4 mph while riding).
Add to that time necessary to etch the inscription, requiring a few hours at least. This has to be done in the dark or using candles - and the Army didn't provide many of them.
The men would have to be back in camp by 6:00 AM (muster & roll call time) for a sunrise of 6:23 AM.
So, you have a minimum of six hours travel time - most of it in the dark, through hostile territory, to carve a fake inscription to which you or your co-conspirators never direct someone to throughout the rest of your life in hopes of pumping up belief in the Book of Mormon.
Nope - I think we can lay to rest the theory that someone from the MoBat was involved.
We do a disservice to even repeat that claim.

Thanks for the info Kevin. Many agree that the carvings aren't older than the 1930s so that also discredits claims of the Mormon Battalion being a possible source of the inscriptions.

I appreciated your comment and the detailed information and sources you provided. Your own personal research and your having walked the entire route of the Battalion lends much more credibility to your position against members of the Battalion having been the fabricators of the inscription. Thanks again.

Archaeologist Ken Feder notes that Hibben had been involved in other fabrications.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xmDnhPNLwYwC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false


More about Feder and the stone since the date of this original RFM post can be read here:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/ken-feder-tours-the-mysteries-of-new-mexico

Also, a podcast from 2015 is here. Ken talks about the Los Lunas stone starting at 31:25
https://www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com/archyfantasies/4?rq=los%20lunas



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2017 01:25PM by mikemitchell.

From "On This Day in Mormon History"

Mar 13, 1930 - Probable date for the creation of the Los Lunas Ten Commandment Stone. "Eva and Hobie 3-13-30" is carved on a rock nearby the notorious "Ten Commandment Stone.". The stone contains a Phonecian inscription of the Ten Commandments and has achieved some fame in the Mormon community as evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon. In 1953 Welby Ricks (President of the University Archaeological Society at BYU), Milton R. Hunter, Sidney B. Sperry, Hugh Nibley, and John L. Sorenson made a trip to New Mexico to investigate the inscription on the stone. Sorenson notes: "We were quite thrilled at first sight and fascinated by its contents." Sorenson "took some shots of surrounding petroglyphs and was surprised to find they were heavily patinated, whereas none of the carvings on the Phoenician stone were thus darkened. (Patination is the discoloration due to oxidation which develops on exposed surfaces of stone over very long periods of time.)" The "Eva and Hobie" stone shows similar lack of patination. Welby Ricks issues a report concluding: "I am fully convinced that the Ten Commandment stone found near Los Lunas, New Mexico is a fraud. Its age does not go back into ancient times. It is probably from thirty to fifty years old, perhaps even dating to as late as March 13, 1930."

Haven't the mormons forgotten that they have a living prophet who can translate anything?

Archaeologists are not against something new and undiscovered, they are against single discoveries of something new, that contradict the story told by billions of already discovered items.

New Film now released on "Hidden Mt. & the Los Lunas Mystery Stone"

http://manvsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/the-mystery-of-the-decalogue-stone/

Oh thank you for resurrecting this old thread about a hoax by trying to promote its veracity.

You won't find fake stones, but they do have good steaks :)
http://www.lunamansion.com/

Los Lunas stone is Looney tunes.

I saw it many and many a year ago, Out in the Middle of Nowhere, and all I remember is that it's a heck of a climb to reach the top of that hill. I wasn't particularly impressed.

I don't think that there is public access to climb that hill any more.

But wait...I thought God took away all the evidence in order to test us. Which is it?

When I was in high school, nearly fifty years ago, I started studying Scandinavian runes. They're pretty basic, and have well known stylistic variations depending on time and place. I was also interested in the Kensington Stone, the authenticity of which was still being debated.

I seriously considered getting a chisel and going to some out of the way place and engraving runes on a boulder or cliff face and leaving a message in Danish. Something like,

"I Grim, scribe, do leave this message. Our party has traveled many days from the beach. End the war. Vote for McCarthy."

Then wait for somebody to spot it and watch the fun.

And certainly, I am not the first person to have thought of such a prank.

who is "debating" it ?

Who is debating its authenticity now? Don't know. I haven't kept up. But there's plenty of literature on it if you google it.

So let us build a mighty wall to defend us from these bothersome Skraelings.

The zombie thread that wouldn't die

Mental masturbation.....if it feels good, do it I say.