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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 22, 2015 09:05PM

. . . as beseeched by RfM poster "Tall on Tales, Short on Facts" (or, as he likes to call himself, "Tall Man, Short Hair"), who made the following request;

“Please, will you take a moment to explain the actual source of the Jesus story?”

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1521786,1522118#msg-1522118


Sigh . . . Here we go again. We've seen TT,SF perform this little ritual dance of his before, with its predictable results. When presented with counter claims to “the Jesus story” (and, yes, it is a silly story, indeed), he refuses to respond directly to the points of the counter position. Instead, he simply avoids them altogther, as demonstrated here::

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1442863,1442863#msg-1442863


I'll give the guy another chance but am not holding out any sort of reasonable hope that he'll behave any differently than he has when given previous opportunities to respond directly to specific counter arguments. (One would think by now he'd have learned to adopt a different approach, since in previous God/Jesus threads he's ended up getting deleted for resorting to vulgarities, which don't count as being substantive arguments).

So, here it is again, TT, SF. This time, please respond directly to the points made, instead of ducking and dodging for your deity.
_____


Even in this age of enlightenment, there are still those who, in the name of supposed "history," claim that Jesus was, in fact, a real person. For instance, pro-Christian apologist and author, Ian Wilson, claims in his book, "Jesus: The Evidence," that “had Jesus been a mere fabrication by early Christians, we should surely expect those Jews hostile to Christianity to have produced a malicious rumor to this effect. From the fact that they concentrated instead on smearing his legitimacy, we may deduce that they had no grounds whatever for doubting his historical evidence.”

Wilson further argues that, based on accounts from other early Jewish sources (including the historian Josephus), “Jesus did indeed exist.” (Wilson, pp. 62, 64-65)

The evidence contradicting Wilson's assertions are many and compelling.

PROBLEMS WITH CLAIMS FOR JESUS’ HISTORICITY

Even Wilson admits that “it has to be acknowledged that hard facts concerning Jesus and his life are remarkably hard to come by.”

He concedes, for instance, that:

1. The Apostle Paul, by his own admission, never knew the person Jesus but, instead, based his entire faith on a vision he claimed came to him about Jesus’ resurrection.


2. The Gospels do not provide any physical description of Jesus.



3. The year of Jesus’ birth is unknown and, based on available evidence, indeterminable.


4. There is no historical validation of King Herod’s supposed slaughter of Jewish children at the time of Jesus’s alleged birth.


5. Jesus’ ancestry is illogically tied back to King David through Jesus’ father Joseph.


6. The author of Matthew was clearly not Jewish, as evidenced by his mistranslation of Isaiah’s prophecy of the Messiah’s virgin birth;


7. The overall credibility of the Matthew and Luke nativity stories are seriously in doubt;


8. There is no reliable evidence for the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.


9. The writings of Roman historian Tacitus concerning the alleged historicity of Jesus are neither clear or specific.


10. The observations of the Roman governor of Bithynia, Plithy the Younger, do not provide reliable evidence of Jesus’ actual existence.


11. The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin. (Wilson, pp. 51, 54-56, 58-60)

On the question of whether Jesus really existed, the record offers an array of formidable realities. Below is an examination of some of the basic evidence against the claim that the man-god of the New Testament known as Jesus actually ever lived.
_____


THE “HISTORICAL” JESUS: A CREATION OF LATE-COMING CHRISTIAN WRITERS

Former evangelical minister Dan Barker points out in his book, "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist":

“[T]here is not a single contemporary historical mention of Jesus, not by Romans or by Jews, not by believers or by unbelievers, not during his entire lifetime. This does not disprove his existence, but it certainly casts great doubt on the historicity of a man who was supposedly widely known to have made a great impact on the world. Someone should have noticed." (Barker, p. 360)

Noted religious historian and professor of German at Birkbeck College in London, G. A. Wells, observes in his book, "The Historical Evidence of Jesus," that if one places early Christian documents in chronological order, it becomes evident that “only from approximately 90 did Christians regard Jesus as a teacher, miracle-worker and a near contemporary, crucified under Pilate.”

These documents, Wells declares, are striking in their lack of detail, indicating that the claims of their authors were most likely influenced “by the Jewish wisdom literature they knew well and by traditions they must have known concerning actual crucifixions of living men in Palestine one and two centuries before their time.” (Wells, pp. 216-217)

Wells concludes that “the Jesus of the earliest documents . . . [was] someone about whose life nothing was known, who had certainly not been a contemporary or near-contemporary of Paul, but who was later regarded as having lived about A.D. 30 and has having preached in Galilee before his death in Jerusalem, perhaps because he was identified with an obscure Galilean preacher of the same name (which after all was a common one).” (Wells, p. 216)

A blow-by-blow summary of the evidence against historicity claims for Jesus is offered by Canadian historian and classical scholar Earl Doherty in his work, "Why I Am Not A Christian":

“1. Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospel story cannot be found in Christian writings earlier than the Gospels, the first of which (Mark) was composed only in the late first century.


"2. There is no non-Christian record of Jesus before the second century. References in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) can be dismissed as later Christian insertions.


"3. The early apostles, such as Paul and Hebrews, speak of their Christ Jesus as a spiritual, heavenly being revealed by God through scripture, and do not equate him with a recent historical man. Paul is part of a new ‘salvation’ movement acting on revelation from the Spirit.


"4. Paul and other early writers place the death and resurrection of their Christ in the supernatural/mythical world, and derive their information about these events, as well as other features of their heavenly Christ, from scripture.


"5. The ancients viewed the universe as multi-layered: matter below, spirit above. The higher world was regarded as the superior, genuine reality, containing spiritual processes and heavenly counterparts to earthly things. Paul’s Christ operates within this system.


"6. The pagan 'mystery cults' of the period worshiped savior deities who had performed salvific acts which took place in the supernatural/mythical world, not on earth or in history. Paul’s Christ shares many features with these deities.


"7. The prominent philosophical-religious concept of the age was the intermediary Son, a spiritual channel between the ultimate transcendent God and humanity. Such intermediary concepts as the Greek Logos and Jewish Wisdom were models for Paul’s heavenly Christ.


"8. All the Gospels derive their basic story of Jesus of Nazareth from one source: whoever wrote the Gospel of Mark. The Acts of the Apostles, as an account of the beginnings of the Christian apostolic movement, is a second century piece of myth-making.


"9. The Gospels are not historical events, but constructed through a process of 'midrash,' a Jewish method of reworking old biblical passages and tales to reflect new beliefs. The story of Jesus’ trial and crucifixion is a pastiche of verses from scripture.


"10. 'Q,' a lost sayings collection extracted from Matthew and Luke, made no reference to a death and resurrection and can be shown to have had no Jesus at its roots: roots which were ultimately non-Jewish. The Q community preached the kingdom of God, and its traditions were eventually assigned to an invented founder who was linked to the heavenly Jesus of Paul in the Gospel of Mark.


"11. The initial variety of sects and beliefs about a spiritual Christ shows that the movement began as a multiplicity of largely independent and spontaneous developments based on the religious trends and philosophy of the time, not as a response to a single individual.


"12. Well into the second century, many Christian documents lack or reject the notion of a human man as an element of their faith. Only gradually did the Jesus of Nazareth portrayed in the Gospels come to be accepted as historical.” (Doherty, pp. vii-viii)
_____


LACK OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ABOUT JESUS’ LIFE IN EARLY CHRISTIAN WRITINGS

Early Christian writings are noticeably vague about the details of Jesus’ life. Wells quotes Gager’s observation: ”We know virtually nothing of [Jesus’] parents, siblings, early years (childhood, adolescence, early adulthood), friends, education, religious training, profession, or contacts with the broader Graeco-Roman world. We know neither the date of his birth, not the lengthy of his public ministry (the modern consensus of two or three years is an educated guess based largely on the Gospel of John), nor his age at death (Luke 3:23 states that he was ‘about thirty when he began’). Thus even an optimistic view of the quest (of the historical Jesus) can envisage no more than a collection of ‘authentic’ sayings and motifs devoid of context.” (Wells, p. 217)

Similarly, former evangelical minister-turned-non-Christian Charles Templeton points to the paucity of evidence concerning Jesus’ life. In his book, "Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Raith," Templeton writes:

“It may come as something as a surprise to the reader to learn that we know remarkably little about Jesus of Nazareth. . . .

"We don’t know the date of his birth--it was certainly not December 25 in the Year One. Nor do we know for certain where he was born, although it was in all likelihood in the city of his childhood, Nazareth--certainly not in a Bethlehem stable. Nor do we know the exact date of his death, although it would seem to have been around the year 30 A.D. The great secular historians of that time (Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, and others) mention Jesus only briefly, making passing reference to the fact that he preached in occupied Palestine and was crucified by the Roman government.” (Templeton, p. 85)
_____


THE HISTORICAL UNRELIABILITY OF THE CHRISTIAN GOSPELS

As Wells notes:

“The Gospels are widely agreed to have been written between forty and eighty years after his [Jesus’] supposed lifetime by unknown authors who were not personally acquainted with him. And their miracle stories are nearly all couched in general terms, with no indication of time or place or details concerning the person or persons who benefited.” (Wells, p. 206)

Raising further questions about their credibility, many of Paul’s letters are obvious “fusions” that were “not written as they now stand.” (Wells, pp. 8-9)

Not only are Paul's epistles composite stories, they are notoriously non-factual. Historian Will Durant observes:

“Paul created a theology about the man Jesus, a man that he did not even know, 50 or more years after the death of Jesus, with complete disregard and neglect for even the sayings that are attributed to Jesus in the synoptic Gospels. The simple teachings attributed to Jesus become lost in the metaphysical fog of Paul’s theology.” (cited in Edelen, "Toward the Mystery" [Boise, Idaho: Josylyn & Morris, Inc.], p. 76)

As to the origination period of the New Testament itself, its 27 books have defied repeated attempts at reliable, universal dating. Those portions which can be most firmly dated are, as has been noted, the letters of Paul, which have been determined to have been penned by 60 A.D. (Wells, p. 10)

In addition, none of the four Gospels represent the “original” texts. As Templeton writes:

“The earliest Christian records extant are the Pauline epistles, and they were written around 50 A.D. It was another ten years or so before the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were completed. But the names attached to the gospels are pseudonyms--none of the authors were among Jesus’ apostles and it is likely that none of them so much as saw or heard him.”

Moreover, Templeton notes that these accounts “are mutually contradictory, lack authenticity, and are in large part of the nature of legends. The stories of Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem, his cleansing of the Temple, and his arrest, trial, and crucifixion have about them an aura of reality but, beyond that, the various accounts differ so radically and at so many points that, with all the good will in the world, they cannot be reconciled.” (Templeton, pp. 85-86)

In terms of which Gospel begat which Gospel, that of Mark appears to have been the source for those of Matthew and Luke, based on the virtual identicalness of many passages. Thus, the latter two gospels “are not acceptable as independent testimony.” The Gospel of John gives indications of reliance on phraseology from the other three Gospels. (Wells, p. 11)

Not only are the names attached to the synoptic Gospels pseudo in nature, the authors of the four Gospels remain, as Wells notes, virtually anonymous, with the books offering no proof within their texts of who actually wrote them. Adding to the confusion, present claims to their authorship were not part of the original documents. (Wells, p. 11)

The legitimacy of statements in the Gospels attributed to Jesus are also suspect. For example, teachings supposedly given by Jesus on the subject of women of Palestine divorcing their husbands lack historical veracity, since only men were allowed to divorce. (Wells, p. 13)

The Gospel accounts of Jesus’ trial and crucifixion are also replete with significant historical difficulties. Luke’s account of the trial is an obvious summary of Mark’s. Mark’s, in turn, is full of imaginary dialogue and scenes concocted by Christian writers who, believing in the Messianic mission of Jesus, invented trial scenes and dialogue in which the Jews condemned Jesus for his status as the Christ. (Wells, pp. 14-15).

Keith M. Parsons, in his "Why I Am Not a Christian," summarizes the case against the reliability of the canonical Gospels as follows:

1. The Gospels were written by unknown persons.

“Not only did Jesus himself write nothing, but the attribution of the gospels to his disciples did not occur until the late first century at the earliest. . . .

"'Matthew: Written by an unknown Jewish Christian of the second generation, probably a resident of Antioch in Syria.

"'Mark: [There is] confusion in the traditional identification of the author . . .

"'Luke: Possibly written by a resident of Antioch and an occasional companion of the apostle Paul.

"'John: Composed and edited in stages by unknown followers of the apostle John, probably residents of Ephesus.’“ (cited by Kingsbury, J.D., “Matthew, The Gospel According to,” in Metzger and Coogan, eds., "The Oxford Companion to the Bible" [Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1993], pp. 502-506


2. The dates of the Gospels preclude them having been written by eyewitnesses.

“. . . New Testament scholars agree fairly closely on a rather late date for the writing of the gospels . . . Generations of New Testament scholarship have produced a very broad consensus that the gospels from around 70 to as late as the early second century.”


3. The Gospels are rooted in unreliable oral traditions.

“Written records of Jesus’s words or ministry were simply not needed or wanted until the end of the apostolic age with the martyrdom of Peter and Paul in 64. The writing of [the] Gospels was a task for second-generation Christians. . . .

“[T]he word-for-word similarities of the synoptic Gospels are very unlikely to be due to the verbatim recollection of the original eyewitness. Oral traditions simply do not form that way. Rather, those precise parallels are much more likely due to common use of written sources. Hence, the synoptic Gospels are not independent eyewitness accounts but textually interdependent syntheses of earlier oral traditions.”


4. The Gospels are theologically biased with an apologetic agenda.

“'[The Gospels] . . . can no longer be read as direct accounts of what happened, but rather as vehicles for proclamation. Such was their original intention.’" (cited in Reginald H. Fuller, "The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives" [New York, New York: The Macmillan Company,1971] p. 172)


5. The Gospels contain fictional forms.

“The Gospels are clearly not biography in the modern sense . . .

"‘Christians have never been reluctant to write fiction about Jesus, and we must remember that our four canonical Gospels are only the cream of a larger and varied literature.’" (cited in Helms, R., "Gospel Fictions" [Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1988], pp. 11-12)


6. The Gospels are inconsistent with each other.

“A careful study of the four Gospels in comparison with each other will show that there is little agreement among the Gospel writers as to the order in which Jesus said and did what is reported of him. . . .

“A striking discrepancy concerns the accounts in the synoptics of Jesus’s resurrection appearances to his disciples. . . .

“[There is] inconsistency between Matthew’s and Luke’s genealogies [of Jesus].”


7. The Gospels are inconsistent with known facts.

“Luke’s nativity story [is] demonstrably false . . .

‘. . . [T]he Roman census would not have affected Nazareth in any case, as Galilee was not under Roman rule but had its own ruler, the ‘tetrach’ Herod Antipas, son of King Herod.’" (cited in Arnheim, M., "Is Christianity True?" [Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1984], pp. 10-11)


8. There is no independent support of Gospel claims.

‘ . . . [P]agan sources do not confirm the resurrection. . . . [T]here is good reason to suppose that [a well-known passage from Tacitus] was written nearly ninety years after the alleged death of Jesus and was based not on historical research but on information provided by Christians of the second century. . . .

‘Other pagan writers such as Suetonius and Pliny the Younger provide no support for the Resurrection of Jesus since they make no mention of it. . . . Thallus, in a work now lost but referred to by Africanus in the third century, is alleged to have said that Jesus' death was accompanied by an earthquake and an unusual darkness that he, Thallus, according to Africanus, wrongly attributed to an eclipse of the sun. However . . . it is unclear when Thallus wrote his history or how reliable Africanus’s account of Thallus is. Some scholars believe that Thallus wrote as late as the second century and consequently could have obtained his ideas from Christian opinion of his time.’" (cited in Martin, M., "he Case Against Christianity" [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Temple University Press, 1991], p. 86)

“’Non-Christian evidence is too late to give any independent support to the gospels. . . .

“’Rabbinic references to Jesus are entirely dependent on Christian claims, as both Christian and Jewish scholars have conceded.’" (cited in Wells, G.A., "Who Was Jesus?" [La Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1989], pl. 20)


9. The Gospels testify to matters beyond belief.

“The Gospels are full of miraculous tales that, in any other context, would be taken to completely destroy the author’s credibility. What would we think of an alleged witness who swears that he saw Ms. Smith commit the murder and then abscond quickly on her broomstick? Why not regard reports of walking on water or raising the dead in the same light? Religious people often employ a curious doublethink here that permits them to treat reverently stories that, encountered anywhere else, would get very short shrift.” (Parsons, pp. 43-70)
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FURTHER LACK OF PAGAN EVIDENCES FOR THE HISTORICITY OF JESUS

A favorite pagan source cited by Christian believers verifying the life of a “real” Jesus is that of the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote that “Christians derive their name and origin from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.”

Ample evidence exists, however, to show that Tacitus was simply repeating what he had been told by Christian informants.

1, As Wells demonstrates, Tacitus identified Pilate by the rank of procurator, which title was a Roman administrative office from the second half of the first century.


2. Tacitus failed to identify Jesus by name, but merely referred to a person put to death who went by the title of Christ.


3. Tacitus was an opponent of Christianity and therefore would have been inclined to repeat the Christian view of the day that Christianity was of recent vintage, given that the Roman government countenanced only ancient cults. (Wells, pp. 16-17)

Barker observes that even if other pagan writers had made reliable reference to Christianity, they did so too late in the game to be considered first-century witnesses. These include the writings in of Suetonius in his Twelve Caesars, as well as the record in 112 A.D. by Pliny the Younger--both of which fail to mention Jesus by name.

Barker notes that also failing to specifically mention Jesus was a second-century Roman satirist name Lucian who wrote of a “man crucified in Palestine,” whose death provided the foundation for the Christian faith. However, Lucian was simply repeating the beliefs of Christians and not presenting compelling historical evidence.

Barker further mentions the Christian believer's penchant for invoking an undated fragment from a personal letter written by a Syrian named Mara Serapion to his imprisoned son, in which the father mentions that the Jews had killed their “wise king.” This purported evidence, nonetheless, contradicts the New Testament version of Jesus’ death, in which, of course, the Romans are blamed for his crucifixion. Even if it is an authentic letter, Barker argues that it most likely refers to someone else, since the Jews had, in fact, killed other religions leaders, including the Essene Teacher of Righteousness. (Barker, pp. 364-66)
_____


ALLEGED HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE MAN JESUS IN THE WRITINGS OF JOSEPHUS

In his work (circa 90 A.D.), "The Antiquities of the Jews," Flavious Josephus, a messianic Jew and respected Roman historian, supposedly wrote:

“Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Hews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that love him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive against the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day.”

Barker dispenses with the claim that this is the authentic Josephus with the following observations:

1. This paragraph about Jesus did not appear until the advent of the fourth century.

The disputed writing surfaced during the time that Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of the Roman emperor Constantine, was helping to fashion what would eventually become the orthodox version of Christianity. Barker notes that it was Eusebius who had argued it was justifiable for Christians to, in effect, “lie for the Lord” and that it was he who was the first person known to have cited this alleged Josephus account. As Barker notes, many Bible experts have concluded, in fact, that Eusebius forged the paragraph in question and then attributed it to Josephus.


2. The paragraph in doubt appears completely out of context.

It is dropped into Josephus’ writings after the historian gives an account of Roman taxation, various Jewish religious sects, Herod’s municipal building projects, the comings and goings of priests and procurators, the planning of seditious plots against Pilate, and Pilate’s construction of Jerusalem’s water supply using religious monies, which led to a Jewish protest, followed by Pilate’s bloody suppression of it. The questionable paragraph then follows, after which Josephus goes on to speak of “another terrible misfortune [that] confounded the Jews . . .” As Barker notes, only a Christian would have regarded this as a misfortune for Jews. Josephus himself was an orthodox Jew and would not have so described it.


3. Not being a believer in Christianity, Josephus would also not have used the language of a Christian convert in referring to Jesus as “the Christ.”


4. Josephus would also not have used the term “tribe of Christians,” since Christianity did not achieve organizational status until the second century.


5. Josephus’ alleged paragraph on Jesus portrays Josephus as having no other familiarity with the alleged Christian Messiah.

Barker observes that the Roman historian thus simply repeats what Christians would have already known, while adding virtually nothing to the Gospel accounts. In fact, Josephus’ supposed brief mention of Jesus is the only reference in all of his expansive writings to Christianity.


6. The paragraph does not reflect the careful wording of a responsible historian.

Rather, says Barker, it is written in the fervent language of a believing Christian and, further, is given with no citation of predictions from Hebrew prophets who supposedly foretold Jesus’ advent. (Barker, pp. 362-63)

There are even more weaknesses in the Gospel tales which undermine claims to their accounts of an historical Jesus.
_____


NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE VIRGIN BIRTH

Templeton points out that the accounts of Matthew and Luke differ on fundamental points regarding the birth of Jesus. For example, at the time Luke says Jesus was being circumcised and Mary was being purified in Jerusalem, Matthew claims Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in hiding in Egypt, waiting for Herod to die.

Additionally, there is nothing in the historical record that mentions the supposed Herod-ordered slaughter of every male child in Bethlehem. Concludes Templeton, “It seems likely that the birth in Bethlehem was inserted into the story at a later date to validate the clams made by Jesus’ followers that, through Joseph, he stood in a direct line of descent from King David, whose roots were in Bethlehem.” (Templeton, p. 91)

As to the Christian claim that Jesus was God, born of an unwed Jewish virgin who conceived through the power of the Holy Ghost, Templeton bluntly concludes, “If one approaches the New Testament account with an open mind and unflinching realism, the evidence clearly indicates that Jesus was an illegitimate child who, when he came to maturity, resented it and was alienated from his parents and siblings.” (Templeton, p. 93)
_____


NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR JESUS' RESURRECTION

Except for the claims made by anonymous Gospel writers, no evidence exists that Jesus ever rose from the dead. In fact, Gospel accounts of the alleged resurrection are, from a realistic point of view, completely implausible.

If, as Templeton observes, Jesus’ resurrection was accompanied by a extraordinary earthquake, the wholesale rending of the Temple veil and a large-group resurrection of the dead witnessed by many, why do these phenomenal events merit but a single sentence in Matthew--and virtually no mention in the other Gospels or in contemporary historical accounts?

Writes an understandably skeptical Templeton: “Let the reader imagine the scene: The astonished spectators, the gathering crowd, the family members and friends, weeping and delirious with excitement. Surely someone would have plied them with questions: ‘What happened as you died?’ ‘Did you see God?’ ‘What is Heaven like?’ ‘Were you reunited with our parents and other members of your family?’ Surely the answers to these and other questions like them would have flashed across Palestine within hours and been recorded somewhere. But there is not one word of it in history. The entire resurrection story is not credible.”

Add to this the fact that the four Gospel accounts of the resurrection not only differ from one another on many major points but are irreconcilably at odds with Paul’s account in I Corinthians on who Jesus supposedly appeared to after rising from the dead. (Templeton, pp. 120-122)
_____


NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF JESUS PERFORMING MIRACLES

Templeton persuasively explains the afflictions suffered by those in the Gospel accounts, which were supposedly healed by Jesus’ miraculous powers:

“Most of the illnesses that afflict humans were beyond the comprehension of the men and women of that day and, of course, beyond Jesus’ comprehension, too. No one at that point in history had even a rudimentary understanding of the causes of physiological or psychological illnesses or of the various other afflictions to which humankind is subject. Most thought of them as punishments from God or the machinations of Satan or other evil spirits.

“When, for instance, epilepsy brought on a seizure that caused the victim to collapse and writhe on the ground as though struggling with an internal enemy, when food poisoning produced a paroxysm of vomiting, when a raging fever led to intense shivering and delirium, or when a migraine attack produced visual aberrations and excruciating pain, it seemed reasonable in that pre-scientific time to interpret such phenomena as the work of an evil spirit. And, when the affliction passed, it was equally reasonable to interpret it as the triumph of a benign spirit over a malign.

“Many illnesses, then as now, were psychosomatic and could be ‘cured’ when the sufferer’s perception changed. Just as today a placebo prescribed by a physician in whom the patient has faith can effect an apparent cure, so, in earlier time, faith in the healer could banish adverse symptoms. With each success the healer’s reputation would grow and his powers would, as a consequence, become more efficacious.

“It would appear evident that this is what happened with Jesus . . .

“It is clear in the text that Jesus was seen by the general populace as a wonder-worker. The stories of his exploits were before him--by word of mouth, of course, and thus subject to embellishing--and when he entered a town the state of heightened expectation would often be close to mass hysteria. As a consequence, the apparently miraculous would happen.” (Templeton, pp. 111-112)

Finally, as Barker points outs, a miracle cannot be considered historical if it is “defined as some kind of violation, suspension, overriding, or punctuation of natural law. . . . In order for history to have any strength at all, it must adhere to a very strict assumption: that natural law is regular over time.

“Without the assumption of natural regularity, no history can be done. There would be no criteria for discarding fantastic stories. Everything that has ever been recorded would have to be taken as literal truth.

“Therefore, if a miracle did happen, it would pull the rug out from history. The very basis of the historical method would have to be discarded. You can have miracles, or you can have history, but you can’t have both.” (Barker, p. 377)
_____


CONCLUSION: POSSIBLE ORIGINS OF THE JESUS MYTH

Various propositions have been advanced to account for the rise of the Jesus myth. Barker lists the following as possibilities:

1. It was “patterned from a story in the Jewish Talmudic literature about the illegitimate son of a woman named Miriam (Mary) and a Roman soldier named Pandera, sometimes called Joseph Pandera.”


2. It “grew out of a pre-Christian cult of Joshua,” originating in tensions between two different Joshua factions.

Interesting in this regard is the fact that “Jesus” is the Greek word for “Joshua." As Barker notes, in Mark 9:38, “the disciples of Jesus saw another man who was casting out devils in the name of Jesus (Joshua).”


3. It was “simply a fanciful patchwork of pieces borrowed from other religions.”

Pagan myths are peppered with their own pre-Jesus accounts of Last Suppers, passion play-outs, crucifixions of sun gods, virgin births and latter-day climatic battles between the forces of good and evil.


4. It followed from “a pre-Christian Jesus cult of gnosticism,” based on since-discovered ancient writings which declare, “I adjure thee by the God of the Hebrews, Jesus.”


5. It could have arisen “as the personification of Old Testament ‘wisdom,'" which did not rely on any historical basis for claims of a pre-existent, literal redeemer.


6. It may have resulted from so-called “self-reflective fiction,” wherein “literary parallels [are drawn] between Old and New Testament stories” through the use of “skeletal templates into which the Jews placed [them].”

In such cases, the tales are similar in not only content, but in structure, as with stories from the Old and New Testaments involving storms, the raising of widows’ sons from the dead, and miraculous episodes of so-called “food multiplication.”


7. It could have found origin in an earlier account of the crucifixion of a Messiah and Lawgiver figure known as the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who was put to death in 88 B.C.


8. It could have been based on a naturalistic explanation that the resurrection story was essentially historically reliable, “but that Jesus merely fainted, and was presumed to be dead, coming back to consciousness later.” (Barker, pp. 372-376)

_____


Bibliography

-Barker, Dan, "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist" (Madison, Wisconsin: Freedom from Religion Foundation, 1992)

-Doherty, Earl, "The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?" (Ottawa, Canada: Canadian Humanist Publications, 1999)

-Edelen, William, "Toward the Mystery" (Boise, Idaho: Joslyn & Morris, Inc., no publication date)

-Parsons, Keith M., "Why I Am Not A Christian" (Atlanta, Georgia: Freethought Press, 2000)

-Templeton, Charles, "Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith" (Toronto, Ontario, Canada: McClelland & Stewart, Inc., 1996)

-Wells, G.A., "The Historical Evidence for Jesus" (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1988)

-Wilson, Ian, "Jesus: The Evidence" (San Francisco, California: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1984)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2015 09:13PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: breedumyung ( )
Date: February 22, 2015 11:07PM

Look the _____ out! Here comes 'bona dea'.

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Posted by: Poof Meister ( )
Date: February 22, 2015 11:25PM

Your sources are outdated.

Besides, you are biased. You have to believe there is no Jesus Christ (God the son) as to conclude otherwise would mean that grandpa was instrumental in sending untold tens of thousands to Hell. Right?

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Posted by: flanders ( )
Date: February 22, 2015 11:56PM

(Meant for Poof Meister)

Please feel free to update Mr. Benson with the most current scholarship on this matter...might I suggest Richard Carrier's latest work "On The Historicity of Jesus" (2014). I think you'll find it not only a compelling read but also just a few months old.

http://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Jesus-Might-Reason-Doubt/dp/1909697494/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424667308&sr=1-1&keywords=on+the+historicity+of+jesus



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 12:12AM by flanders.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:01AM

Yo, "Poof":

Cite how each one of the points in the OP are wrong. Be specific.

As linked to you courtesy of poster "flanders," historian Richard Carrier is of the view that Jesus was not an historical figure. Perhaps you have missed what I have written to that effect in this very forum:

Bad News for Carrier Bashers: His Research Has Been Peer Reviewed

In a previous, now-closed thread, RfMer "Human" describes historian Richard C. Carrier as "a scholar to question, prima facie. . . . Question: What has Richard Carrier translated, and what does he plan to translate next? . . . Question: What is Richard Carrier’s specialty? . . . Question (my last): What in Richard Carrier’s work prompts his readers to trust him?"

("What is a Scholar: Micheal Grant v. Richard Carrier," by "Human". on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 19 December 2014)


My original question back to “Human”: "Where have you been when it comes to Richard Carrier?"

NOTE: I initially went on to answer "Human's" Questions #2 and #3, but am now just getting around to answering his Question #1: "What has Richard Carrier translated, and what does he plan to translate next?" The answer to that question comes directly from Richard Carrier:

"Richard C. Carrier,

"October 7, 2014

"LANGUAGES (translation competency):

"French*German*Latin*Ancient Greek (including papyrology and paleongraphy)"

("Curriculum Vitae: Richard C. Carrier, Ph.D.," 510-932-9536, rcarrier@infdels.org, p. 2, 7 OCtober 2014, at: richardcarrier.info)


Now, where were we?

Oh, yes. For those still earnestly wishing to dismiss Carrier's research as purportedly being non-academic and non-serious may be interested to know (or maybe not, if facts still don't mean all that much to them) that his work on the make-believe, non-historical character--otherwise known as "Jesus"--has, in fact, been peer-reviewed and is now available through a reputable academic publishing house. I have since added some more information which I hope can humanly internalized, as found in the following damnable link:

"Bad News for the Carrier Bashers: His Research Has Been Peer Reviewed," by Steve Benson, "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 19 December 2014, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1463300,1463490#msg-1463490


Allow me, if you will, to offer up in the name of historical honesty some teasers in behalf of that unforgivable-anti-livable-Lord case.
_____


--Let's start with something RfMers can relate to--Carrier compares Christianity's supposedly "historical" Jesus to Mormonism's supposedly "historical" Angel Moroni:

"I think it is more likely that Jesus began in the Christian mind as a celestial being (like an archangel), believed or claimed to be revealing divine truths through revelations (and, by bending the ear of prophets in previous eras, through hidden messages planted in scripture). Christianity thus began the same way Islam and Mormonism did: by their principal apostles (Mohammed and Joseph Smith) claiming to have received visions from their religion’s 'actual' teacher and founder, in each case an angel (Gabriel dictated the Koran, MORONI PROVIDED THE BOOK OF MORMON)." -emphasis added
_____


--Carrier synopsizes the essential problem with the "historical" Jesus position as one that is not only hampered by traditional Christian assumptions which are ignored by secular historians, but that is simply out of sync with the actual historical evidence:

". . . I can summarize the reasons for suspecting we’ve been wrong all along about how the Christian religion began. . . . [A]s Philip Davies recently said, 'a recognition that [Jesus’s] existence is not entirely certain would nudge Jesus scholarship towards academic respectability.'"

"A superbly qualified scholar will insist some piece of evidence exists, or does not exist, and I am surprised that I have to show them the contrary. And always this phantom evidence (or an assurance of its absence) is in defense of the historicity of Jesus. This should teach us how important it is to stop repeating the phrase 'the overwhelming consensus says . . . ' Because that consensus is based on false beliefs and assumptions, a lot of them inherited unknowingly from past Christian faith assumptions in reading or discussing the evidence, which even secular scholars failed to check before simply repeating them as certainly the truth. . . .
_____


--For those who don't consider Carrier to be a credible scholar, his voluminous research backing the "Jesus Myth" has been peer-reviewed and reputably published--facts that leave concerned Christians quaking in their Bible-believing boots:

"There are at least six well-qualified experts, including two sitting professors, two retired professors, and two independent scholars with Ph.D.s in relevant fields, who have recently gone on public record as doubting whether there really was a historical Jesus. I [Carrier] am one of them. And I have recently published the first-ever peer-reviewed academic study making the case for this conclusion. ('On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt' was published this year by the University of Sheffield (Sheffield-Phoenix, 2014). It continues the case I began in a prior peer-reviewed book, 'Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus' (Prometheus Books, 2012), on why the methods employed in Jesus studies today are not logically valid, and what must replace them."

On hearing the bad news that Carrier's research pointing to the palpable lack of "historicity" for "Jesus" has actually been peer-reviewed, Christians have been fit to be tied (if not crucified). One asks anxiously:

"I'm a little bit worried because:

"1) How on earth could his book pass peer-review? I mean the 'Jesus mythicism' movement is virtually disproven. It would be like arguing that the earth is 6000 years old. There's just so much evidence against the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was based on myth and legend.

"2) I thought that if something is 'peer-reviewed' that it was considered factual? How are we supposed to know what is factual and not factual, even if it passes 'peer-reveiw'?"

"3) Should we be worried? Or is this just another book? Am I misreading the article wrong?

"Please answer, I'm very upset and discouraged because I think Richard Carrier is very wrong and pushing an agenda to the internet atheists."

Oooooh. And the Christians don't have "an agenda" of their own aimed at pushing legend of the "living" Christ?

**********


Regardless of how earnestly Carrier's critics attempt to dismiss his scholarly work, it has:

1) passed peer review;

2) been published by a reputable academic press; and

3) is substantiated by compelling historical evidence.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 05:15AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: flanders ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:10AM

Yes, I just finished Carrier's book and I recommend it to Meister Poof with the hope that he'll put on his big boy glasses and read it instead of just making a hit and run attack on you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 12:11AM by flanders.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:13AM

Oh, and "poof" to "Poof Meister," too. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 12:21AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Poof Meister ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 04:40PM

A hit an run attack? No. It is putting a spotlight on the elephant in the room that everyone ignores and pushes into the DARK. Not surprising to me that it never seems to be addressed though. Bias only exists on the theist side, as atheists are all about PROOF and REASON. Right? I forget that sometimes.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: February 22, 2015 11:41PM

They're talking about how they were living/and one of the others served in mission in Gilbert, AZ. I guess the missionaries kept trying to dare each other to go knock on his door.

Sorry, just listening now, and I believe it's very humorous!!!
http://infantsonthrones.com/

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:17AM

Mormon missionaries have been commanded by their handlers not to contact me.

(see related thread: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1355228,1355228#msg-1355228)


A few months back, I was out in front of my house where I had parked my truck and was cleaning it out a bit. A couple of doors down were a pair of arm-to-the-square-in-their-magic-underwear Mormon missionaries, sporting their signature bicycle helmets that make them look like grasshoppers, trying to make inroads into the home of an unsuspecting neighbor.

As I busied myself with the truck, I couldn't help but overhear the pitch they were making, and found myself thinking of what I might say if these two oddball elders made their way down to my residence, all smiley and beguiley. Out of the corner of my eye, I witnessed them close the deal for a Saturday meeting with my naïve neighbor and was waiting for them to head toward my apostate Venus fly trap.

Unfortunately, these two wimpy warriors hopped on their bicycles and quickly pedaled away. I must confess I was a bit disappointed to have not been able to have a Close Encounter of the Unkind Kind.

A short while later, I found myself in Salt Lake City, where I was at a garden party chatting with a returned missionary/now ex-Mo, who had served his own mission in Gilbert, Arizona, where I happen to live. He told me that while he was there, he and his fellow Crusaders for Kolob Cash were given my street address and explicitly commanded not to darken my doorstep.

You don't know how good that made me feel. :)

However, apparently the JDubs (short for Jehovah's Witnesses) didn't get the memo. Returning from Utah, a pamphlet had been left on my front porch entitled, "Where Can We Find Answers to Life's Big Questions?," brought to you by JW.org, which claimed to answer the following:

"What is the meaning of life?"

"Is God to blame for our suffering?"

"What happens when you die?"

The pamphlet concluded with the pleasant pledge, "Jehovah's Witnesses will be happy to discuss the Bible with you."
___________


At least the JDubs have the cajones to pitch me their baloney.

Gutless Mormon missionaries, on the other hand, have been ordered to avoid me like the plague.

What are they afraid of? My Satanic Code-Red Apron?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 12:23AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thegoodfight ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:55AM

I think the Jesus of Mormonism and the Jesus of the Bible are really different. One thing is true, Jesus isn't his actual name. Also, his last name is not Christ.

Many people can find proof to support just about anything. Jesus being real or not is a great example. Being published doesn't mean what you have to say is true. It means that you have caused enough of a stir to get noticed and generate revenue for the publisher.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 01:03AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 01:03AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 02:39PM

what is his middle initial ?

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 02:54PM

How come all of the non-Atheist historians living in the same general area at the same general time never wrote about the fantastic jesus character ?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 04:43PM

That's the theist story, and I'm sure they're stickin' to it. :)

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 01:20AM

I'm flattered that the OP feels the need to respond to me, but he seems to miss the fact that I actually cited writings of some of his fellow atheists in my recent post. I recommend that he start by winning them over to his position, since they were the sources I cited. According to them, he represents an "amatuer" fringe element bent on an ideology that requires "contortions and suppositions that simply do not stand up to Occam's Razor . . ."

Here's what some atheist historians have to say about the conspiracy theory embraced by our Jesus Truther OP:

Daniel Fincke, atheist:

"I personally want to take this chance to discourage my fellow atheists who are not historians from publicly making a big deal out of the historicity of Jesus, especially when engaging with Christians. Why? Because the historical consensus is that there was a historical Jesus. Responsible, mainstream, qualified history scholars who judiciously disregard supernaturalistic claims about Jesus and have no agenda to promote Christianity nonetheless, as a matter of academic consensus, believe there was a historical Jesus. Could they be wrong? It’s possible. But if they are, that is for qualified historians to prove, not laypeople. And it is for the field of ancient history to be persuaded to change its consensus before laypeople go around making claims that Jesus did not exist."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2013/10/on-atheists-attempting-to-deny-the-historical-jesus/#ixzz3QPiEksOn


Tim O'Neill, atheist:

"I’m another atheist who long ago realized that when it comes to historiography, most atheists are stunted at about a high school level of understanding."

http://www.inquisitr.com/1523534/jesus-christ-never-existed-atheists-and-historians-dispute-michael-paulkovichs-jesus-myth/#3Y0mCQIpjgdzDHyE.99";;

"The real problem is that the Jesus Myth thesis requires a series of baseless suppositions to prop it up and gets slashed to pieces by Occam's Razor. That's why it only appeals to fringe contrarians and/or ideologues with an agenda."

http://thewrongmonkey.blogspot.com/2014/09/126-writers-who-according-to-michael.html

"The arguments of the Jesus Mythicists, on the other hand, require contortions and suppositions that simply do not stand up to Occam's Razor  and continually rest on positions that are not accepted by the majority of even non-Christian and Jewish scholars.  The proponents of the Jesus Myth hypothesis are almost exclusively amateurs with an ideological axe to grind and their position is and will almost certainly remain on the outer fringe of theories about the origins of Christianity."
 
http://www.strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-the-evidence-for-jesus-part-2-of-2/



Neil Carter, atheist:

"When climate change deniers want to insist that our actions have no impact on global temperatures, they display a remarkable disdain for an entire discipline populated by credentialed professionals in that field who say otherwise. It doesn’t seem to bother the deniers that they themselves have no specialization in the academic field they disparage because in any field of study there will always be at least some small contingent who go against the consensus. The existence of those outliers is justification enough for the deniers to say, 'This business is far from certain, you know. Just look at these four people who disagree!'

That’s how I feel when people in the skeptic community argue that Jesus never existed. They are dismissing a large body of work for which they have insufficient appreciation, most often due to the fact that they themselves have never formally studied the subject. "

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/09/04/an-atheists-defense-of-the-historicity-of-jesus/#ixzz3QPkN3yBP";;

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 01:24AM

Our OP has devoted significant space on this page to decry the claims of the historical Jesus. He notes that there are problems with the historical record and an overall lack of any reliable evidence to substantiate a belief that this fellow Jesus actually existed.

He closes out his argument by offering the following alternative options. I'd like to allow this time for the OP to present his compelling evidence for any of these options. Choose one or all of them. Please show us the reliable historical evidence that any of these should be considered as a viable option for the source of the “Jesus Myth.” We trust that you'll be completely consistent in your requirement for reliable supportive evidence for these concoctions:



CONCLUSION: POSSIBLE ORIGINS OF THE JESUS MYTH

Various propositions have been advanced to account for the rise of the Jesus myth. Barker lists the following as possibilities:

1. It was “patterned from a story in the Jewish Talmudic literature about the illegitimate son of a woman named Miriam (Mary) and a Roman soldier named Pandera, sometimes called Joseph Pandera.”

2. It “grew out of a pre-Christian cult of Joshua,” originating in tensions between two different Joshua factions.

Interesting in this regard is the fact that “Jesus” is the Greek word for “Joshua." As Barker notes, in Mark 9:38, “the disciples of Jesus saw another man who was casting out devils in the name of Jesus (Joshua).”

3. It was “simply a fanciful patchwork of pieces borrowed from other religions.” 

Pagan myths are peppered with their own pre-Jesus accounts of Last Suppers, passion play-outs, crucifixions of sun gods, virgin births and latter-day climatic battles between the forces of good and evil. 

4. It followed from “a pre-Christian Jesus cult of gnosticism,” based on since-discovered ancient writings which declare, “I adjure thee by the God of the Hebrews, Jesus.” 

5. It could have arisen “as the personification of Old Testament ‘wisdom,'" which did not rely on any historical basis for claims of a pre-existent, literal redeemer.

6. It may have resulted from so-called “self-reflective fiction,” wherein “literary parallels [are drawn] between Old and New Testament stories” through the use of “skeletal templates into which the Jews placed [them].” 

In such cases, the tales are similar in not only content, but in structure, as with stories from the Old and New Testaments involving storms, the raising of widows’ sons from the dead, and miraculous episodes of so-called “food multiplication.”

7. It could have found origin in an earlier account of the crucifixion of a Messiah and Lawgiver figure known as the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who was put to death in 88 B.C. 

8. It could have been based on a naturalistic explanation that the resurrection story was essentially historically reliable, “but that Jesus merely fainted, and was presumed to be dead, coming back to consciousness later.” (Barker, pp. 372-376) 

Cited from http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 02:58AM

. . . you do (and will continue to do): namely, you are still refusing to refute, point by point and with any specificity, the arguments presented on Jesus' non-historicity.

What you have proved, however, is that you are, well, boring, predictable and ill-prepared.

The only defense I have seen you give for God in recent threads has been a fallback appeal to the pseudo-science of "creationism."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1460768,1460774#msg-1460774


Is that all you've got? :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 03:33AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Anon 2U ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 03:27AM

Repeating the same BS you flung around last time does not make you correct THIS time either.

The simple fact remains that there is zero evidence that Jesus lived.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 05:12AM

You wrote, "I'm flattered that the OP feels the need to respond to me . . . ."

Really? In a previous thread, you asked that I respond to you, expressing your need that I do so as follows: “Please, will you take a moment to explain the actual source of the Jesus story?"

Since that thread was closed, I started a new one in response to your request that I respond to you.

Ask and ye have received.

I wouldn't put amy more spin on it than that. You're already pushing your limit with your false "flattered" shtick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 04:44PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 03:05PM

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm flattered that the OP feels the need to
> respond to me, but he seems to miss the fact that
> I actually cited writings of some of his fellow
> atheists in my recent post.

That some atheists "believe" there was an historical "Jesus" doesn't mean there was. None of those writers offered any new evidence to show there was an historical "Jesus."

They're also all condemning the "mythicists" -- those who make an alternative affirmative claim. Not believing the "Jesus existed" claim does NOT make one a mythicist.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 01:35AM

Why should anyone believe your position in this when atheist historians -- who clearly have no axe to grind -- find your position to be without merit?

Your animus toward all things religious is well known. But when atheists with degrees in history cite your position as amateurish and seemingly ignorant of history, why on earth should your position be given any credibility at all?

Why don't you honor Daniel Fincke's request to stop "making a big deal out of the historicity of Jesus?"

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 02:58AM

Wait, you have made no specific response to my data.

You've been given ample chance to do so (and, as linked to in this thread's OP, other RfM posters have also noticed your lack of meaningful reply).

Why don't you get around to providing your version of proof for Jesus' alleged existence? And why don't you take on my summation of conclusions, point by point?

Answer: Because you can't.

Chill out, dude, before you start spewing vulgarities again, like you did when you were previously cornered. I don't necessarily personally follow the recommendation of other atheists when it comes to your as-yet undefended Jesus premise (See? We atheists don't all think alike; and I observe, of courses, that you did not bother to cite atheist Richard Carrier's case against Jesus' supposed historicity).

"Blowhard, Short Fuse." Another appropriate board handle for you. :)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 03:21AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 03:17AM

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait, you have made no specific response to my
> data.

Fine with me. We'll put this to rest. Some fellow atheists have issued your membership card in the tin foil hat club. Who am I to argue with them? They're really the ones you're offending. They've examined the "silly story" that's "short on facts" and found it to more credible than your amatuer assertions.

We theists expect this sort of thing from you, but you're showing yourself to be an embarrassment to your fellow atheists. What's the point in attacking me when it's the data of your fellow atheists that has disproved your position? The childish pejoratives you cast my way are a response to their arguments, not mine.

Next time you give a speech at the FFRF, just keep in mind that some in that crowd will be looking back at you recognizing that when it comes to an honest scholarly evaluation of Biblical history, you're a great political cartoonist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 03:18AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 03:22AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 03:32AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Anon 2U ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 05:46AM

Pure ad hominem, "Short Man No Manners". See my new thread on this subject.

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Posted by: ASteve ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 02:55PM

If this is satire of how crazy theists sound when atheists present them with facts, you are brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 03:16PM

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why should anyone believe your position in this when atheist
> historians -- who clearly have no axe to grind -- find your
> position to be without merit?

Um...what "atheist historians?

Tim O'Neill is not an historian (he describes himself as an "amateur historian," but doesn't claim to be a professional one).

Neil Carter is a former "church elder" and now skeptic, with no training in history of any kind.

Daniel Fincke has a PhD in philosophy, and no historical training or expertise.

You didn't refer to any "atheist historians." So why claim you did?

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Posted by: Extraordinary claims... ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 09:34AM

The onus is on the believers.

They demand we believe, pay tithing, repent!

And lots more.

Before they get our money, time, talents and obedience (again).

Consider!

I was in Los Angeles last week! Here's what I saw!

"A man raises the dead, the earth shakes, the sky is black for hours in mid day, dead people rise from their graves!"

But, you say, "KLA radio didn't mention it, the LA Times didn't mention it."

We'll, they just missed it! That's all, you have to prove it didn't happen!

A weatherman in Van Nuys said it was a "dark and gloomy day." So see!?!?!

By the way, I WAS in L.A. All of that did happen, plus an elephant pooped out a living Elvis!

You can't prove it didn't.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 12:04PM

I'm just going to point out that TMSH's original dodge is a ridiculous anyway.
It's a classic example of the, "well if you can't prove it's false, it's true" dodge.

That's not the case. There's no need for those who rationally and reasonable don't accept claims that there WAS an "historical jesus" to provide an alternate explanation for the stories, or to "prove" anything. The lack of evidence FOR the claim is sufficient reason to not give it any merit.

Although as Steve and others showed, there is considerable evidence to show the claim false.

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 04:51PM

I'm not sure I understand TMSH's position. Aren't the atheist scholars he cites also Jesus-mythicists of a different variety? They just believe the myth was based on an actual person who may, or may not, have been named Jesus. Some of their arguments aren't based on scholarship. It sounds like they're basically saying "you can't prove a negative, so stop engaging Christian apologists on the historicity of Jesus." It reminds me of how some exmos talk about BoM authorship...it doesn't matter, we know it's not true without arguing that point.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 23, 2015 04:59PM

. . . although he's doing so for disingenuous reasons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 04:59PM by steve benson.

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