Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Phan ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:26PM

Hi.

I have been reading a lot on this board for a few days now.
I'm Mormon, active, but I have a lot of questions and doubts. Actually, I say active, but I find excuses sometimes to miss meetings and assignments.

It's been a couple of years that I have had questions in my head about the church, but it was just in the past few weeks that my world came crashing down. I came across some info online about the book of abraham and how it was all faked. I had heard vaguely over the years that anti-mormons had issues with the book of abraham, but that hugh nibley had taken care of it. That was all i needed to hear. But what I came across recently on the internt troubled me. So I ordered the book By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. I was devastated. THis book blew my testimony out of the water. This was the smoking gun to disprove the church. I started researching all of the defenses from church apologists and none of them was very good. Thanks to this board, I was directed to the book of abraham essay on the lds.org. Unfortunately, it seems that the church doesnt' have an explanation that differs in any way from the apologists.

So you may be thinking that it sounds like I have concluded that the church is not true. And that is accurate. Except for....except except except

those lingering doubts, like what if the defense of the book of abraham is true? I suppose it is Possible that the translation came from the papyri that is still missing. I suppose it is Possible that the papyri served as inspiration for the translation and was not source material.

I don't know. My mind is messed up. What if I leave the church and when I die I find out that it was true, and I threw away the celestial kingdom?? I feel like maybe I should stick with it even if I'm not sure, because what harm can there be in it? If it is true, I'm still on track for the celestial kingdom, and if it is not true, then no harm really.

There is also the issue of my worthiness. A few years ago I sinned with my girlfriend but never told the bishop. We didn't go all the way, mind you, let me be clear about that. But we went further than you are supposed to. I wonder sometimes if it is my unfaithfulness that has made my testimony weaken. Maybe if I am more righteous I will be strong again.

I'm rambling, but let me offer a final thought. To be clear, it seems to me from everything I have read that the Book of Abraham is totally made up. And on that basis, the whole church is not true. But there are a lot of smart men who believe it and defend it. Hugh Nibley, my dad even, the apostles. I mean, these are scholars, doctors, educators, businessmen. I feel like there must be something I'm missing. If they are so intelligent and still believe it, then I should believe it too, because I am not as smart as those guys.

So it's a struggle. I don't want to throw away my salvation but I don't want to live something that might not be true.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: grubbygert nli ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:31PM

"But there are a lot of smart men who believe it..."

you need to read Why People Believe Weird Things

here's a taste:

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2002/09/smart-people-believe-weird-things/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:35PM

Think clearly.
Seek truth.
Accept truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lurker From Beyond ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:38PM

Put aside your fears. Mormonism is a fraud made up by a 19th century con man. You risk nothing by leaving.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: In a hurry ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:40PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:41PM

Welcome to the board! We're glad to have you here.

The trouble with the BoA is, scholarship has come a long way since Joseph Smith's time. Thanks to the Rosetta Stone, experts can now read Egyptian hieroglyphics. We know a lot more about ancient Egyptian culture. Joseph Smith gave explanations for the facsimiles that in no way match up with what we now know that they show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

There is an expression, "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras." In other words, the most likely explanation is probably the correct explanation. Joseph made it all up.

But don't take our word for it. Take your time and continue studying. There is no rush. Just don't make any life altering decisions (mission, marriage, kids) while you are trying to get this sorted out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:42PM

Thinking of Joining but it has a lot of good info. http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

You may also find this interesting. http://www.conchisle.com/magic.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:43PM

Phan,

First, I know what you're going through, we all do.

Second. The Book of Abraham problem is just the tip of the iceburg.

Third, there are a lot of reason to not stay in the church if it is false. It's called living an authentic life. What if you've chosen the wrong church and it's the Muslim who have it right, or the Scientologists or the Jehovah Witness? You see my point? You can't live your life on the basis of "just in case." The church does a lot of harm. Keep reading and you will see some. It takes you time, talent, money and energy. It requires you to lie to your children. That does harm. And that isn't touching on what is does if you have a child or sibling or friend who is gay. There are so many other ways.

Keep reading. You might want to try cesletter.com or Mormonthink.com
Both give a good summary of the issues.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Mnemonic ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:43PM

This is something you need to decide for yourself. Will you take the word of people just because they are smarter than you or will you come to a conclusion based on the evidence. Do not be fooled by the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority


Think about this. You go to an auto mechanic to diagnose a problem with your car but would you trust his opinion about how to treat a medical problem? Probably not. You would go to a doctor. So why would you trust a doctor or lawyer on a matter of translating ancient Egyptian papyrus? Especially if that person had something to gain by offering their opinion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: WestBerkeleyFlats ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:47PM

First, there's no need for you to make any decisions all at once. Plenty of people have doubts about the church for years while participating at some level. There are probably more people who think like you who are attending church than you realize.

Second, the Book of Abraham is obviously a very weak point for the church. As you noted, the church isn't even bothering to defend a literal translation of the papyri very much any more. The Pearl of Great Price has quietly been an embarrassment for the church for some time, but they can't really get rid of it so they have downplayed its importance.

Basically, just relax. You can make decisions later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:50PM

Well... maybe you can take your time.. just don't marry someone who is very TBM or you could end up divorced later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tiny Tears ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:50PM

http://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

The scientific method: try to disprove your theory. Take the theory that the Mormon Church is what it claims to be, the true church of God. Try to disprove it. Many of us have. But this is something you should do on your own.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:54PM

Phan, the Book of Abraham is just one thing that disproves Mormonism. There are scores more if you have the courage to keep searching. Richard Packham has one of the best sites for those who are questioning: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/ .

You don't have to leave right this minute if you don't want to. Take your time, study and search and when you're sure, you'll know it.

Welcome to RfM. We hope to see you often.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tal Bachman ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 07:55PM

Phan - Do yourself a huge favour and order a book called "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by CES guy Grant H. Palmer off of amazon.com. It will help clarify things for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 07:58PM by Susan I/S.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:50PM

Also, read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. Learn how controlling religions get you to suppress your doubts by using fear and blame (as in: if you are having doubts, it's because you are a sinner).

The Book of Abr. was my final straw. But it still took months before I was completely sure of myself. It was the emotional manipulation with fear. Lots of study helped reassure me that I was on the right path, OUT of the church. The key on the Book of A research is not to get lost in the debate about which papyri JS used in the translation. It doesn't matter. They are just trying to muddy the waters. Just look at the facsimiles. We KNOW what he was using, and he used those convenient little numbers to show us what he was referring to. He described what was in those pictures, and he either got it right or he didn't. You know how this ends, right?

By the way, he claimed full responsibility for those translations, as he was editor of the Times and Seasons (Nauvoo newspaper) and he proofread them before they were published. He wrote about proofreading it in his journal.

I included a link to a picture of a bull, and there are some other familiar glyphs that were on the round fascimile. When I realized the translation was about a copulating bull, I realized this had nothing to do with Mormonism.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1ZMDB_enUS504US504&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hieroglyphics+bull

Hang in there. The fear will fade, and eventually you'll be amazed that you ever believed it.

p.s. I've added a link to a bunch of hieroglyphs, so you can check up on the validity of the translations you already saw in that book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs_by_common_name:_A%E2%80%93L



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 08:53PM by imaworkinonit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raging ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:13PM

Phan, it is not that the leaders of the Mormon church are any smarter than you. They might be or they might not be. They do not stay and defend the church because they are smart, they stay because they gain the benefits right here and now. They get lots of money, perks, and worship from the little people in the Mormon church. I found out the church was not what it claimed to be about 2 1/2 years ago and I had never thought the GAs got paid, but they do get paid. Guess I missed Hinckley admitting to the "modest" (my ass) living stipends. The stipends are only modest to the executives of some other multi billion dollar corporations. The general leadership also gets lots of perks like a car, their property taxes paid, free flights and vacations, and sweet business deals for themselves and their relatives. They do not pay bishops or SPs, but mission president is apparently where the church starts paying off. My point is that they have motives to stay and to get you to stay, pay, and obey.

Go to mormonthink.org or cesletter.com and start studying what this supposed church is all about from the beginning. When you have both sides and all the relevant info, it will be easy to decide what you would like to do about it. Good luck to you!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:14PM

I left without the evidence that the Mormon church was a proven fraud and more on the personal inability to confirm and validate the Truth claims of the Mormon church with respect to prayer, priesthood, One True Church, and legitimacy of the Mormon temple rituals.

One of the things I determined is that if I were wrong and Christ and I had to have a talk I would tell him my truthful experience and expected that He would understand.

I hope that helps. Don't live Mormonism out of Fear. If you can no longer believe Mormonism, you have to determine if Fear of being wrong is the way you want to live the rest of your life. I can't promise it will be easier outside of Mormonism, but it will be a much more genuine and authentic life.

You will own your mistakes and victories and determine your values and vices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 08:23PM by gentlestrength.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: TheBrianGuy ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:15PM

It took me months trying to find Mormon answers to my doubts but I never found them. As you said the answers are weak. I wanted so much for there to be answers that proved that the issues against the church were either exaggerated or false but could never find anything. There is a reason why the Mormon answers are lackluster. If you ever venture to other issues with the church you will find the same lame and incomplete Mormon answers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ICEMAN ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:16PM

The Book of Abraham is only the tip of now-verifiable history that shows the fraud of Mormonism. Do yourself a favor and Google "utlm.org, and www.mormonthink.com"

The fraud of the Book of Abraham started my journey out of the LDS church, but there is much, much more out there that shows what a liar, con-man, and sexual predator Joseph Smith was (as well as several LDS leaders who followed him).

It was a shock to find out how much LDS leaders lie.

Good luck on your journey.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: toast ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:42PM

The Book of Abraham did it for me. I still stuck around in church for a year and half hoping maybe somehow I would discover something that would make me believe again. The more research I did the more I saw how much the church was whitewashing it's history. Eventually it just became too much to sit through church and conference and hear all the conditioning and whitewashed history being taught. I talked with some 'smart men' about the issues and what I saw is that they tend to compartmentalize how they look at things. For their professions they use logic and reason but when it came to their belief feelings and emotions trumped everything. They may be smart and succesful but they've been mormon their whole life, the real question to consider is how many smart men who know all the issues do you see joining the church?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Phan ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 01:48AM

I know that I need to believing in myself more. Maybe the "smart" guys are dumber than me on this.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 08:51PM

It doesn't matter which part of the papyrus it was translated from. It doesn't matter if the papyrus was just "an inspiration" for JS. The BOA is still demonstrably false.

The cosmology described in the BOA is utter Bullsh*t. The sun does not borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash (fig.5 in facsimile #2). It just doesn't. This is just Joe Smith making up BS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 09:00PM

Thanks to DNA we also know that the Book of Mormon is a fraud.

Mormonism is not what it claims to be.
Your instincts were correct.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: onlinemoniker ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 09:01PM

Phan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't know. My mind is messed up. What if I
> leave the church and when I die I find out that it
> was true, and I threw away the celestial kingdom??
> I feel like maybe I should stick with it even if
> I'm not sure, because what harm can there be in
> it? If it is true, I'm still on track for the
> celestial kingdom, and if it is not true, then no
> harm really.
>
A few
>years ago I sinned with my girlfriend


What harm can come of sticking with the church even if it is true? How about you're wasting your one and only life on something that's a lie. This is it. You don't get a second chance. This is your most prized possession and you think "no harm really"? That's a pretty cavalier attitude about your life.

PS--Do you really think Heavenly Father gives a crap that you almost had sex with your girlfriend? Seriously, if he's that great a god, he's got more important things on his plate than to worry about petty stuff like that. Wouldn't you if you were God?

Read "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 09:03PM

Welcome to the board, Phan! During the Internet Age, 100’s of 1,000’s of Latter-day Saints have struggled to reconcile LDS Church doctrines and teachings as well as widely-held Mormon beliefs with the facts, be they historical, scientific, or other. Interestingly, one year ago today The New York Times reported:

“In the small but cohesive Mormon community where he grew up, Hans Mattsson was a solid believer and a pillar of the church. He followed his father and grandfather into church leadership and finally became an ‘area authority’ overseeing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout Europe.

“When fellow believers in Sweden first began coming to him with information from the Internet that contradicted the church’s history and teachings, he dismissed it as ‘anti-Mormon propaganda,’ the whisperings of Lucifer. He asked his superiors for help in responding to the members’ doubts, and when they seemed to only sidestep the questions, Mr. Mattsson began his own investigation.

“But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.

“Around the world and in the United States, where the faith was founded, the Mormon Church is grappling with a wave of doubt and disillusionment among members who encountered information on the Internet that sabotaged what they were taught about their faith, according to interviews with dozens of Mormons and those who study the church.

“‘I felt like I had an earthquake under my feet,’ said Mr. Mattsson, now an emeritus area authority. ‘Everything I’d been taught, everything I’d been proud to preach about and witness about just crumbled under my feet. It was such a terrible psychological and nearly physical disturbance.’”

“Mr. Mattsson and others say the disillusionment is infecting the church’s best and brightest. A survey of more than 3,300 Mormon disbelievers, released last year, found that more than half of the men and four in 10 of the women had served in leadership positions in the church.”

(Ref. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html?_r=0 )

Reuters reported in Jan. 2012:

“A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

“Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are ‘leaving in droves?’ a woman asked.

“‘We are aware,’ said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. ‘And I’m speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church.’”

“‘My own daughter,’ he then added, ‘has come to me and said, “Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?”‘ For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, ‘Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.’ The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are ‘severely outdated.’”

“‘It’s a different generation,’ Elder Jensen told the group in Logan. ‘There’s no sense kidding ourselves, we just need to be very upfront with them and tell them what we know and give answers to what we have and call on their faith like we all do for things we don’t understand.’”

(Ref. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120130 )

The Book of Mormon:

The LDS Church says on one of its websites, Mormon.org, that "the Book of Mormon contains the history and God’s dealings with the people who lived in the Americas between approximately 600 BC and 400 AD. The prophets in the Book of Mormon recorded God's dealings with His people, which were compiled by a prophet named Mormon onto gold plates." (Ref. http://www.mormon.org/beliefs/book-of-mormon )

Strangely, the Mormon.org webpage says nothing about the Jaredites, which the LDS Church says left the Tower of Babel about 2200 B.C. (ref. https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-50-ether-1-5?lang=eng ) and sailed to the Americas in water-tight wooden "barges", or quasi-submarines, based on the description in the BoM's Ether 2:16-17.

In March 1842, Joseph Smith (JS) claimed that the BoM was an “important and interesting book” in which “the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.” (Ref. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/the-wentworth-letter?lang=eng )

In General Conference in Oct. 1986, LDS Church President Ezra Benson told Latter-day Saints that "the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. This was the Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement. He testified that 'the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion'. A keystone is the central stone in an arch. It holds all the other stones in place, and if removed, the arch crumbles." (Ref. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/10/the-book-of-mormon-keystone-of-our-religion?lang=eng&query=keystone )

The BoM mentions the following in relation to the ancient Americas during the book’s purported timeline (~2200 BC to 421 AD):

1. Domesticated oxen, cattle, horses, asses (donkeys), swine, goats, and sheep;
2. Elephants;
3. Chariots, cimeters (curved swords designed by Arabs), and ships;
4. Ancient Israelites who knew how to create and work with steel and construct swords made of the alloy;
5. Ancient Americans of Hebrew ancestry who worked expertly with iron, copper and brass;
6. Many cities and buildings constructed with cement;
7. Silk and fine linens;
8. Figs, wheat and barley;
9. A monetary system involving gold and silver coins;
10. People who practiced Judaism and worshiped in synagogues;
11. A seven-day week ending with a Jewish day of worship (a Sabbath);
12. Societies led by kings; and
13. “Reformed Egyptian.”

Since the late 15th century, has anthropological evidence been found in the Americas that has supported what's described in the BoM? No. Of equal important is the fact that the so-called "keystone" of Mormonism does NOT describe the plants, animals, indigenous cultures, languages, customs, spiritual traditions, etc. of the ancient peoples who lived in the Western Hemisphere.

Genetic research involving Native Americans during the past generation ALONE has proven that the ancestors of “the Indians that now inhabit this country”, again quoting JS, were not Israelites, as the BoM describes, but came from northeastern Asia. Details are online at:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

2. “New World Settlers Took 20,000-Year Pit Stop”: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080214-america-layover.html

3. “Ancient skeleton yields clues to Native American origins (+video)”: http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2014/0516/Ancient-skeleton-yields-clues-to-Native-American-origins-video

4.”Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church”: http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/losing-a-lost-tribe-native-americans-dna-and-the-mormon-church/

5. “DNA vs. the Book of Mormon”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GF_SxbPLb0

Even more disruptive to Latter-day Saints' 'faith' about the BoM is the fact that Mormonism's "keystone" contains not only verses plagiarized from the Bible, but also from two American history books available to JS:

1. David Ramsay’s "History of the American Revolution", which was first published in three volumes in 1789. Ramsay was a friend to and the biographer of George Washington, the famous American general and first president of the United States.

2. Mercy Otis Warren’s multi-volume "History of the Rise, Progress, and Termination of the American Revolution", which was initially published in 1805, the year of JS' birth.

Related info. is at http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

Have you heard of "View of the Hebrews" (pub. in 1823) by Ethan Smith (no relation to JS)? One of the principal ideas in Ethan's book was that American Indians descended from Hebrews/Israelites.

Ethan Smith was a New England Congregationalist clergyman who lived and pastored in Poultney, VT at the church attended by the family of Oliver Cowdery, JS' close friend and priesthood subordinate. It's not unreasonable to think that Oliver was aware of the pastor’s volume and told JS about it. Did JS' parents have a copy of "View of the Hebrews"? Early 20th century LDS Seventy and Church Historian B. H. Roberts thought there was a “great probability” that they did.

Retired LDS Church Educational System director Grant Palmer, author of the 2002 book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", wrote that Ethan Smith’s book “was written, published, and widely distributed in New England and New York where the Smith family lived, two editions rapidly selling out.” (Info. about Palmer's illuminating book is at http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins-2/ )

Palmer's research revealed that "View of the Hebrews" and the BoM were very similar in that in both volumes:

1. Native Americans (Indians) are of Israelite origin and their ancestral language is Hebrew.

2. The future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Biblical Ten Lost Tribes is discussed.

3. There are extensive quotations from the Bible’s Book of Isaiah.

4. The destruction of ancient Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel are mentioned.

5. A promise is made that a great Gentile nation (the United States) will arise and occupy America.

6. An appeal is made to the Gentiles to nurture scattered Israelites who come to America.

7. Peopling the New World is the result of a group traveling from the Old World.

8. The Western Hemisphere was devoid of people prior to the arrival of the migrants.

9. There is a religious motive for the migration.

10. After arriving in the Americas, the travelers split into two groups.

11. One of the groups remains civilized while the other becomes uncivilized.

12. The civilized group has a written language, is skilled in metal-working, and knows about navigation.

13. There are lengthy wars between the groups and the civilized is eventually destroyed by the uncivilized.

14. A “lost book” is buried (in the BoM, it consists of gold plates, while in View of the Hebrews, “yellow leaves” — sheaves — comprise the volume).

15. There are extensive military fortifications with “watch towers.”

16. The gospel is preached in the ancient New World, and idolatry and human sacrifice are practiced.

17. Generosity to the poor and needy is extolled and pride condemned.

18. Polygamy is forbidden (in the Book of Mormon, the practice is characterized as a “whoredom” and a “grosser crime”, and the ancient American character, Jacob, tells Nephite men that God commands that they have only “one wife” and “concubines he [each man] shall have none.”).

19. At some point during the then-future, the descendants of the Indians (Lamanites in the Book of Mormon) will learn of and read the ancient writings.

20. New World inhabitants effect a change of government from monarchical rule to a republic.

21. A high-ranking government leader possesses civil and religious power.

22. Opposites (e.g., good/bad) are presented as integral to existence.

BoM "translation":

Here’s an odd quote in an article by Mormon apostle Russell Nelson in the July 1993 Ensign:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear.” (Ref. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng )

And from the LDS Church’s “Friend” magazine for children:

“Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

“Martin Harris said that on the seer stone ‘sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say “written;” and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.’”

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng )

Why hasn’t the LDS Church taught millions of potential converts to Mormonism or Latter-day Saints around the globe about JS’ seer-stone-and-face-in-hat ‘translation’ technique, or his “egg-shaped, brown rock” used (supposedly) for “translating”? Answer: if investigators were told the truth they wouldn’t join, and members would leave in huge numbers.

Based on the LDS Church’s published information, JS’ small rock was (apparently) perfectly adequate in terms of magically generating Book of Mormon characters and sentences. So, why were the ancient golden plates that JS told people he’d received from the angel Nephi (later changed to Moroni) even needed? (See http://mormonthink.com/nephiweb.htm for details about the name switch.)

Both the Ensign article by Nelson and the Friend article described a meticulous BoM “translation” process. Strangely, however, the LDS Church says on its website:

“Over the years, a few hundred deletions [of BoM text] have also been made, primarily to improve the book grammatically. The most commonly eliminated have been the words that (188 times), the (48 times), it came to pass (46 times), a and and (40 times), and had (29 times).

“Additions have been less numerous, probably less than one hundred.”

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/12/understanding-textual-changes-in-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng )

In fact, there have been "3,913 Changes in the Book of Mormon": http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

While on the topic of JS' supposedly "divine" ability to "translate", as you're aware his "translation” of the Egyptian papyri that he acquired in 1835, which became the BoA, was bogus. An excellent video on the topic is “The Lost Book of Abraham”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

In 1996, the Department of Anthropology at the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. published the following statement:

"The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

"The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World – probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age – in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

"Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America [regarded by Latter-day Saints as territory inhabited by Book of Mormon peoples].

"One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog [not mentioned in the Book of Mormon]) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, [or] camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)

"Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

"There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.

"No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt.

"Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland."

(Ref. http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/smithsonianletter2.htm )

So, in addition to Mormonism's Book of Abraham, its "keystone", the BoM, has been exposed as a work of fiction. The "arch" of the Latter-day Saint 'faith' has collapsed.

For even more info., see Chapter 11, "Fall of the Book of Abraham", at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm and "Book of Mormon" at http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

The First Vision:

The LDS Church’s Joseph Smith Papers website says that JS’ journal in Nov. 1835 included the following First Vision (FV) description:

“I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated [a “silent grove”] or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to pray, my toung seemed to be swolen in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some person walking towards me, [I] strove again to pray, but could not, the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I sprung up on my feet, and looked around, but saw no person or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking, I kneeled again my mouth was opened and my toung liberated, and I called on the Lord in mighty prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon my <me> head, and filled me with joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst, of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed.” (Ref. http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/interview-9-november-1835?p=1 and p. 2 by clicking on the “>“ symbol)

Huh? JS “made a fruitless attempt to pray” because his “toung seemed to be swolen” and he got spooked by “a noise behind” him, “like some person walking towards” him, and “a personage appeard in the midst, of this pillar of flame”? That’s not the FV account that the LDS Church has taught to millions of people worldwide for more than a century. The supposedly “true” FV story has been:

“After I [JS] had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

“But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—’This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!’”

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.15-17?lang=eng )

Info. about JS’ ‘morphing’ First Vision tales is at http://mit.irr.org/joseph-smiths-changing-first-vision-accounts

Chapters 7 and 8 of Grant Palmer’s illuminating 2002 book, “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”, also discuss JS’ changing FV stories and those about the so-called “priesthood restoration.”

Also, read Chpt. 6, "The First Vision", at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm

In Oct. 2002, LDS Church President Gordon Hinckley told Latter-day Saints:

“We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.

“When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, ‘Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.’

“That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud.”

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/10/the-marvelous-foundation-of-our-faith?lang=eng )

Mormon Polygamy:

During the Internet Age, countless Latter-day Saints have been shocked to learn that JS not only targeted teenage girls (some as young as 14) and single women to pressure them to become his illegal plural wives, but also the spouses of other men. Details are online at:

1. The LDS Church’s genealogy website: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/995N-B25 and https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV

2. At http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ and in historian Todd Compton’s comprehensive book, “In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith” (ref. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/ )

The LDS Church says on its scriptures website that Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants was a “revelation” to JS “relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage” (ref. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng ). The church’s summary for D&C 132 also says that JS knew “revealed” polygamy “principles” from 1831 onward (same link).

Notably, D&C 132:61-63 state:

“61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood — if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

“62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

“63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.61-63?lang=eng )

Disobeying this important “revelation” from “the Lord”, JS targeted 11 non-virgins (married women), each of whom was “vowed” to her husband, and made them his plural wives (the list is at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ ).

According to D&C 132:61, marrying (illegally) the 11 wives of Mormon husbands made JS, the so-called “prophet of the Restoration”, a serial adulterer.

In the case of Sylvia Lyon, wife of Windsor Lyon before JS illegally made Sylvia his spouse in March 1842, in Jan. 1844, “Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, ‘Just prior to my mother’s death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith.’” (Ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm )

The polygamy “revelation” stipulated (in verse 61) that “consent” from “the first” wife had to obtained before a Mrmon male priesthood holder-husband could “espouse [marry] another” “virgin.” Again, JS disobeyed this “revealed” aspect of “the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage.”

How? Teenager Lucy Walker, one of the adolescent girls that JS targeted and married, recorded that she was shocked when JS told her: “I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.” (Ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm )

Worse, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” (Same link.) Why not? “Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel” (i.e., JS had not first obtained permission from Emma to marry young Lucy - same LucyWalker.htm link).

Notably, the BoM states in Jacob 2:24: “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” (Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/2.24?lang=eng )

However, D&C 132 (“recorded in 1843” by JS, according to the LDS Church in its summary for the section) says in verse 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph [Smith]...I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.”

Huh? God condemned David’s and Solomon’s practice of having “many wives and concubines” as “abominable” in the BoM, but flip-flopped and “justified” (authorized) the two Old Testament polygamist kings in 1843?

How can this be? After all, the “true” BoM repeatedly states that God is “the same yesterday, today, and forever” (ref. https://www.lds.org/search?q=the+same+yesterday,+today&lang=eng&domains=scriptures ).

The answer is that when JS wrote the BoM in 1829, he had only one wife: Emma. But by mid-1843, when he wrote the supposed “revelation” about polygamy, he had at least 28 wives.

The abundant historical evidence shows that JS was a consummate liar and a serial adulterer. Here's a related post I did three months ago: "Given that JS committed adultery with women & girls, you have nothing to confess to or worry about": http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1242170,1242511#msg-1242511

To wrap up this long post, in Gen. Conf. in April 2003 LDS Church President Gordon Hinckley told Latter-day Saints: "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." (Ref. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/loyalty?lang=eng )

More than 184 years of historical, scientific, and other evidence, including from several Mormon sources, has proven that Mormonism "is a fraud" and the LDS Church "is nothing."

"Latter-day Saint Swindle: The Mormon Church's $200-Billion Scam" may be of interest to you: http://www.amazon.ca/Latter-day-Saint-Swindle-Churchs-200-Billion-ebook/dp/B00J2ON5WK

I suggest that you continue to study, scrutinize, and think for yourself. You're in the process of setting yourself free from cultic Mormonism. Who says it's cultic? Countless former Latter-day Saints as well as America's leading expert on cults, Steve Hassan, on his website: https://freedomofmind.com//Info/infoDet.php?id=140

When you're ready to resign from the chronically dishonest and manipulative (through fear, guilt, and shame) Mormon Church, you can follow these easy instructions: http://www.exmormon.org/remove.htm

Enjoy your life!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Phan ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 01:38AM

Holy crap this is a lot of info!

Thank you, it will take a lot of time to work through.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 02:27AM

1. "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by Mormon history expert D. Michael Quinn, Ph.D: http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/early-mormonism-and-the-magic-world-view/

2. "No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith" by 20th-century American historian and biographer Fawn Brodie: http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

3. "Studies of the Book of Mormon" by early 20th-century LDS Church Seventy and Historian B. H. Roberts (and edited by Brigham Madsen): http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272/ref=pd_sim_b_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1TVM43ZVZ5TMSVC5TQWD (Note: In the early 1920s, Roberts researched scientific volumes about Native Americans and much to his dismay, learned that no anthropological evidence in the Americas supported the supposedly "true" BoM).

4. "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" by historian Todd Compton: http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/

If you're more of a video person, you might be interested in "The Way of the Mister: And I'm a Formon [Former Mormon]" by Brian Dalton, the creator, writer, and director of the popular YouTube series, "Mr. Deity": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfkHJmHYn6M

Also, "South Park Tells About the Foundation of Mormonism and Joseph Smith": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q

Enjoy!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 09:10PM

Assume all Mormons claims are truthful. Is it still the way you want to live? If you say yes, I say go. If you don't like the subculture, don't participate. True or not, I find Mormon culture to be stifling and intrusive.

Nuclear Physics is truthful, and no one forces you to study the science.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Left Field ( )
Date: July 20, 2014 11:01PM

Definitely go to cesletter.com

It's your one-stop shop for all historical/doctrinal concerns regarding Mormonism.

Good luck!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: exodus ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 01:46AM

+1

It's a one stop shop to lay everything out on the table. We're here for you at RfM if you have other questions or need to vent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 05:45AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: evergreennotloggedin ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 01:14AM

I really liked The 1st FreeAtLast post. This is a saver.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Kaitlyn ( )
Date: July 21, 2014 06:37AM

Good luck, Phan, we have all been through this process. To base your life on a lie would be a tragedy of the first degree.

I was programmed to marry someone in the church, but never found a Mormon boy that I liked very much. When I left the church, I met an atheist who is the kindest, funniest, and most intelligent person in my life. One of the things you might miss by staying in the church is not meeting and sharing your life with your soulmate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.