Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 12:08AM

I was reading up a bit, as I am prone to do and I ran across this page in the FAIR Wiki. I came here specifically to see if I had missed any of their great explanations about why Mormon teachings are so horribly inconsistent. In this search I found not a defense but an admission. FAIR admits that the reason the Mormon church doesn't teach certain things any more is........ the things taught were stupid. Here are two quotes, and I'll include the link.

"Prophets are not scientists: Their views of science tend to reflect the prevailing views of the time. For example, Brigham Young expressed a number of opinions regarding science that one would consider very humorous or even outlandish today, such as the suggestion that the moon and the sun were inhabited."

And

"Modern day prophets are no more immune to the current thinking of their day. On May 14, 1961, Apostle (and future Church president) Joseph Fielding Smith declared that “We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it.” As much as critics would like to declare this a “failed prophecy,” would it be reasonable to expect the Church to teach such a thing in light of current knowledge?"

Let me highlight this"...WOULD IT BE REASONABLE TO EXPECT THE CHURCH TO TEACH SUCH A THING IN LIGHT OF CURRENT KNOWLEDGE?" Russia had put man in space a month before JF Smith made this statement. Russia did this and then told the whole world that they had done it right afterward. JF Smith would have known that Yuri Gagarin had orbited the earth when he made this statement.

The Mormon church: we teach stupid stuff, but if it ever gets humorously stupid we will stop teaching it.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Changing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 12:10AM by jacob.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 12:10AM

Yep. Sheesh.

Answer: Yes, that is exactly what you would expect if the leaders of the church have no prophetic knowledge.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: shadowspade ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 12:14AM

Wow. I just don't know what else to say.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 12:45AM

when you consider that the US put Alan Shepard into space on May 5, 1961, and televised it live.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 01:32AM

JFS said what he said knowing full well that the USA and Russia had put men into space. He didn't say what he said because he didn't think it possible, he said it because he didn't want it to be possible.

It has always been LDS doctrine that we are not privy to see any of God's other creations. JFS was just scared that space travel would shake his fragile faith.

More mind numbing stupidity if you have the stomach for it.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1971/04/people-on-other-worlds?lang=eng

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 02:21AM

Oddly enough, I noticed that in that lengthy article, there were a lot of references to old teachings as being true that apparently the Mormon church doesn't teach anymore...

Wow. It's just pathetic.

Edit: Including the one about men becoming Gods. That was in there and I thought "Wait, I thought that was one that everyone was supposed to deny...looks like I'm out of the loop again"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 02:23AM by nickson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: smith ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 08:38AM

It talks about KOLOB :) This made my day!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 01:38AM

Either the prophet does not speak to or for God, or God is an idiot. Take your pick.

Final choice: There is no God (I'm not there yet).

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 01:39AM

The prophet could speak for the idiot god.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: StevetheFourth ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 08:24AM

The LDS prophet speaks for an non-existant idiot God is an option.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 09:14AM

Very true, and he could actually be speaking to this non-existent idiot God, but they have meds for that now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: motherwhoknows ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 02:49AM

Twojedi's, there are other choices!

We all know that the Mormon God and the Mormon Jesus--as interpreted by Joseph Smith--don't exist. That doesn't mean that There is no God, or there is no Jesus. It means that the Mormon cult tried to hijack Jesus and use His name in the title of their church. The same way they hijack the concepts of family and marriage, charitable giving and disaster relief, and now Christmas, with their "Mormon Christmas Initiative." (The cult has never been able to hijack Love, however.)

The Mormons don't own God. IMO, there are as many interpretations of God as there are people on the planet. As Earnest Hemingway wrote, "There is no one great truth--it is all true.

Enjoy finding God, as you find your self. Leaving the cult (for me) has been a journey of LOVE.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 02:51AM by motherwhoknows.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: motherwhoknows ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 03:00AM

I was not a scientist, either. I was just a puny little girl, but I knew enough that humanoids could not survive on the sun or under the North Pole or on the Moon. I also learned in the Second Grade and from reading the National Geographic, that people migrated from Asia into America via the Bering Straits. I saw pictures of Mongolians and Eskimos, and could not tell the difference. I was no great intellect. What kept me from believing in the cult was just ordinary common sense.

This is why cults must brainwash. Teaching and apologetics fail, but lies, repetition, chants, threats, grandiose promises, fear, and the greatest tool of all, family pressure is what works. Emotional manipulation wins out over intellectual appeal. Yes, it does boggle the rational mind--but most Mormons I know simply don't care.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 09:15AM

Good thoughts, thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: A ANON ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 02:03AM

+


"Prophets are not scientists"

Exactly so!

Prophets (theoretically) are far,far BETTER than scientists!

That is the entire Mormon doctrinal advantage -- the assertion that their "true and Living Prophet" speaks directly FROM God, and FOR God!

So, if God is perfect, then God's words are perfect and so are the words that Mormon prophets deliver directly from God -- to state otherwise is to admit that these men are not real prophets in the first place.

So then, are the words of "True Prophets" MORE reliable than scientists, or LESS reliable?

These BYU "scholars" can't have it both ways.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 02:32AM

A ANON Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> +
>
>
> "Prophets are not scientists"
>
> Exactly so!
>
> Prophets (theoretically) are far,far BETTER than
> scientists!
>
> That is the entire Mormon doctrinal advantage --
> the assertion that their "true and Living Prophet"
> speaks directly FROM God, and FOR God!
>
> So, if God is perfect, then God's words are
> perfect and so are the words that Mormon prophets
> deliver directly from God -- to state otherwise is
> to admit that these men are not real prophets in
> the first place.
>
> So then, are the words of "True Prophets" MORE
> reliable than scientists, or LESS reliable?
>
> These BYU "scholars" can't have it both ways.


My, but how they 'try', tho those attempts are pathetic.

brings the questions:

What about ALL the people who were taught/believed all the Wacky-Sacky stuff, Now repudiated, dis-owned: Isn't (Eternal) Progress supposed to be Based on Knowledge???

they don't seem to 'Get It' that when they abandon teachings (Doctrines) of the past, they're writing off the PEOPLE who were taught it?

-or- Do those people have to go thru massive 'Re-Education Camps' to be brought up to speed? (most blatant: Polygamy vs. Monogamy)

In-Fing-Credible, that's Mormonism

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: NYCGal ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 04:37AM

prophet? Well, any time he gets a prophecy wrong, apparently.

The delusion is amazing. I just saw an article indicating that the Manhattan, NY stake president (David Buckner, a regular on Glenn Beck's show) gave a speech praising church leaders for their prophecy and foresight in choosing to buy prime Manhattan real estate for the wardhouse (and later temple) at Lincoln Center when that area of Manhattan was still mostly slums and gang territory.

However, the facts are quite different. In the article Buckner notes that TSCC acquired the property in 1967.

By then, the Lincoln Center development was already well on its way to becoming a premier location in Manhattan.

Lincoln Center timeline:
1959 - Groundbreaking
1962 - Avery Fisher Hall opens
1964 - New York State theater opens
1965 - Vivian Beaumont theater opens
1966 - Metropolitan Opera House opens

Was a land purchase near Lincoln Center in 1967 a smart business move? Yes.

Was it prophetic? Absolutely not.

The ability of seemingly somewhat intelligent people to suspend all disbelief and perpetuate lies simply boggles my mind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Surrender Dorothy ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 05:52AM

How does one bridge the gap between grand claims and disappointing reality?

Enter the FaithPromotingRumor followed by a tearful testimony of the greatness of TheDearLeaders (i.e., those who make the grand claims).

Rinse and repeat. Now he'll tell two friends, and they'll tell two friends, and so on, and so on. (Obviously I watched too many hair-care commercials as a child.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 10:36AM by Surrender Dorothy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ragingphoenix ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 08:47AM

"As much as critics would like to declare this a “failed prophecy,” would it be reasonable to expect the Church to teach such a thing in light of current knowledge?""

LOL!

It would be reasonable to expect if you are a member who is taught that prophets know shit that the rest of the world needs to hear supposedly.

And the really entertaining thing about the above FAIR quote is that it tries to get leaders off the hook by speaking in the "current time period". Since when does any speak from another time period except to say "now that we know so-and-so was speaking as a man..."

But they do this EVERY TIME!!

Every prophet has been undone, corrected and buried. "that's not doctrine...he was speaking as a man".

Except for the current prophet who is also a product of the times, but won't be declared to have spoken as a man until years later, despite that all of his followers acted on his words like they were god's.

So FAIR just admitted prophecy doesn't happen...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ZIP ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 09:33AM

*


The Latter-day logic is this:

A prophet is speaking as a PROPHET when he "lucks out" and fortunately happens to say something that factually sticks over time.

A prophet is only speaking as a MAN when he "strikes out" and unfortunately happens to say something that becomes insanely stupid over time.

Discerning the statements of True Prophets from those of False Prophets can only be done AFTER the fact. Until then, of course, the Mormon church insists that (without any questions allowed) they are absolutely True Prophets by the Doctrine of Default.

*

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 09:47AM

FAIR extols an ever vanishing doctrine theory, of which is included the vanishing geography theory of the BOM. Eventually, the LDS doctrine taught as correct at FAIR will become an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that is getting harder and harder to explain for these compartmentaltardation wizards the more science learns. And at some point FAIR will disappear in the tiniest poof that philosphers will be heard to argue, if no one is there to see FAIR implode did they ever actually exist?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: redkoolaidmonster ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 10:25AM

The logical extension that the apologists avoid is this:

IF past church leaders said things that were later deemed wrong or silly...

IT MEANS THAT ANYTHING THE CURRENT LEADERS SAY COULD BE WRONG OR SILLY.

IT MEANS THAT ANYTHING THE CURRENT LEADERS SAY COULD BE WRONG OR SILLY.

Did I mention that IT MEANS THAT ANYTHING THE CURRENT LEADERS SAY COULD BE WRONG OR SILLY.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 10:36AM

This:
compartmentaltardation wizards

Made me laugh my ass off..

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: amberbock ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 10:46AM

I want to take a rocketship to Kolob.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: November 29, 2012 10:56AM

Prophet's are scientists......well, they aren't prophets either.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **  **      **  **    **  **     **   ******  
  **  **   **  **  **  ***   **  **     **  **    ** 
   ****    **  **  **  ****  **  **     **  **       
    **     **  **  **  ** ** **  **     **  **       
    **     **  **  **  **  ****  **     **  **       
    **     **  **  **  **   ***  **     **  **    ** 
    **      ***  ***   **    **   *******    ******