One of the worst things I saw when I was a leader in the church was the disciplinary councils (courts) held on people. What bothered me the most was the pain inflicted by decisions and the lack of inspiration in the process. I saw some people get away with stuff (little penalty) to big penalities imposed for the same thing. I saw favoritism by leaders to their friends and harsh action against non-friends, etc. I just always hated the process because there absolutely too many times were it was just wrong the way it was done. The entire process is just wrong. I always thought when I was a TBM (leader being part of this process) that repentance and forgiveness should be strictly between JC and the member and not the morons (oops, leaders) who pretended they acted for God. It is a sad process.

Do any of you have experiences that lead you to agree?

I was dating a tbm, and I was also tbm. We got married and then confessed that we had slept together two times during our dating days. We both had children from our first marriages.

Nothing happened to my wife. She was required to go visit with the bishop 2 or 3 times and that was it. The bishop said I should meet with him every week and discuss it. Finally, after 4 months of this he said I needed to meet with the SP, which I did. The stake president called a court of love and I was disfellowshipped for 8 months. It was the most humiliating thing I have ever went through. There were 15 men who sat aroung a big oval table and listened to me describe sex with my wife. I knew most of these men outside of the church from doing business with them or working with them in the church. Everyone except the SP seemed very embarrased and uncomfortable with the proceedings. The SP seemed to revel in it.

It was terrible in the way it was handled. During this same time I had a close friend that was also a divorced male. He had slept with a women he met at a stake dance, they never went out again. He felt guilty and went to his bishop and was told to be careful and not do it again. That was it. No more interviews, no disfellowshipping, no family or friends knew about it except the ones he told.

Here I was a married man who married the girl I slept with and was now punished for something that happened over a year ago. My family knew I did something bad because I had no church job, I didn't take the sacrament, and I was an outcast for 8 months. My wife took the sacrament and went on normally, although she was very upset at the way I was treated.

There is no fairness in church courts. It all comes down to who you are and what mood the church leader is in at the time. If I had to do it over again, even if I was still a believing Mormon, I would never disclose anything to a church leader. It would be between me and God.

Whenever we have these discussions, I always have but one thought: Get NormaRae on our Bat-Phone! Have her tell you her wonderfully unique story of Mormon inspiration and humiliation.

serving as a "judge in Israel" as a member of the Stake High Council started to the death spiral for me right out of Mormonism

...depends on the assclown who is running the show.

I won't go through my whole story again right now, but yes, it depends on who the bishop or SP is. I think the reason my story (which is really my ex-husband's story--I was just commanded to be at the high council court), is so unique because the SP who ran it was the most controlling, depraved, dishonorable, pompous, arrogant, manipulative, corrupt, penishood leader I've ever encountered. I won't mention any names, but he's a Utah Valley gastro doc and in pig latin he would be hynn wemmert. Our court took place in 1986 and I read a few years afterwards that he had been called to be a mission president in Florida. I felt so sorry for any guy who had to serve under him. But when the court happened, he was a new SP and this was his first chance to hold a court. He must have been so excited to show off his bigass power and authority. He was just that kind of guy. In the end, hubby only got a slap on the wrist (probation). But I was so thoroughly humiliated by the ordeal.

But trust me, there have been many times that I've wanted to write a letter to good ol Doc Wemmert and thank him for being the biggest a-hole in the church. I was SUCH a molly mormon at the time and that was the very first crack in the door. When we walked back and got in the car, my husband turned to me and said, "well, I guess they made it perfectly clear whose fault that was." Yes, they did (mine, of course). But then, I swear and this sounds so floweringly mormon, I felt loving arms around me (could it have been my brain kicking in for the first time) and the thought came to my head that what we had just experienced had nothing to do with God. Nothing. If there was a Satan, it was all about him. I knew that God loved me and that even if this was his church, parts of it had become very corrupt and some of the leaders were just plain corrupt. It took 15 years, almost to the day, from that point to the day I got my exit letter when I resigned. It was a very strange journey during those years. But once that door was cracked open, it allowed other information in. It allowed me to start peeking behind it.

In all reality. Hynn Wemmert is the person I should thank for all the good things that have happened in my life, especially in the last 10 years. I would like to publicly thank him here for opening my eyes with his take on a Court of Love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2012 11:49AM by NormaRae.

comes down to being your fault. Isn't that interesting. My situation was all about me and what my job was--and after my ex started cheating on me--it was bound to happen, my VERY LONG-TIME FRIEND who was a bishop at the time--told me if I had given him enough sex, he wouldn't have strayed. Being that he is gay--I'm pretty sure I had NOTHING to do with it.

After I heard that talk by RM Nelson on temple marriage a few years back, I wrote this bishop friend of mine a letter and told him BULLSH*T--and called him out on what a hurtful thing he had said. My ex also said I lowered his ability to avoid temptation.

I actually had the same type of thing happen when I found out he was cheating. I was sitting alone in my front room--he had taken the kids so I could have some time to myself--and I felt the same thing, whatever it was told me, "you are a good person, THIS has NOTHING to do with you . . . "

I have to say, I had that same feeling comfort after I walked out of the sp's office for the last time. I don't know what else you would call that feeling. It wasn't relief, or joy, it was a comfort like being held close.

Geez, NR, you left out the "best" part, the most damaging and unspeakably stupid and cruel part.

NormaRae's husband had been a serial adulterer and had been called in for discipline based on one of his indiscretions. When things got going, though, he ended up 'fessing up to a lot of times with a lot of women. As I remember the story, people--most of all NR herself--were ever more incredulous, and poor NR had to sit there and just squirm hearing all the dirt that was coming forward. Just before the stake presidency went in for their judgmental head-butting session, NR's bishop asked te unbelievable question, something like, "NormaRae, aren't you satisfying your husband?" NormaRae sarcastically replied, "Apparently not!"

Anyway, based on that, her serial adulterer husband got off with probation, but NormaRae felt the brunt and was also released from her RS calling as punishment. This is how silly, small, insulting, and arbitrary it can all be.

Actually, he was called in for admitting to screwing two girls. What was humiliating was them asking him all kinds of questions and details that he hadn't even told me and I was hearing it for the first time in a fishbowl with 17 men staring at me. It wasn't until later (after I had divorced and remarried him) that I really learned the extent of his adultry (because he didn't feel like he had to confess that, the 2 "affairs" would be the litmus test of his forgiveness, one-night stands with girls in Japan or the Philippines were nothing).

Remember, I had been told by pompousass SP the night before that if I were at the court he could guarantee hubby wouldn't lose his membership, if I wasn't there he couldn't guarantee anything. So already, his sentence was dependant on me. You know--the sinner. At the end of all the questioning SP asked if anyone else had any questions and one guy, who had been our previous bishop and who it came out later, had been having an affair with a girl younger than his oldest daughter, said, "Can I ask Sister D a question?" Then he said, "Do you feel like you sexually satisfied your husband?". The only thing I could say was "apparently not." Then they go pray, come back and slap his wrist, and hubby tells me they made it clear it was all my fault.

I was in the primary presidency at the time and was very quickly released so that I could work on my family issues. I was so hurt because I'd only been it a short time and I knew people were happy about my being in the position. A few months later I was in a RS gathering and some woman was telling me about some poor woman in the ward whose husband had cheated on her and she had the stories from the court (which her husband was on) so twisted around that it took me a few minutes to realize she was talking about me (she didn't even really know me).

I have been divorced from this person for almost 18 years now and he is still on the records of the church as a member in good standing, even though his name is all over the hooker sites in this town where street walkers warn other street walkers about scary clients. Again, I'm the bad parent because I resigned from the church and set a bad example for my kids (who are all now inactive--one resigned).

And yes, somehow I stayed in that stupid cult for 15 years after that. That's how brainwashed people are. Any normal woman with a slice of a brain left would have got up, said "you all go straight to hell" and never looked back. If I had one moment in my life I could live over again, when the high council guy asked me that question about satisfying my husband I would look straight at every guy and say, "well, I don't know--I give him three blow jobs a day, how many does your wife give you?" Stupid stupid stupid cult full of stupid brainwashed sheep.

Yeah, but in the end you "won." Took a while, but you won. People like you who overcome this kind of schit and move on to a rather content life with new friends are the best people we have on this site, and offer the best testimonials on the ruinous effects of the LDS church.

Thanks for filling in the details. I'm sorry I got some of the facts skewed. In a vile, awful way it is such a good story.

///Sorry. Wrong place.///



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2012 09:01AM by cludgie.

During a period of time on my mission, I was the secretary for my Mission President and served as the 'scribe' for two different courts for missionaries. My role was to be a silent, invisible observer keeping careful notes. All the juicy details would be compiled onto an official form that was sent to SLC and could later be referenced by the leaders in the missionary's home stake (all the better to assist them in his 'repentance process').

I clearly remember sitting in those courts, where the MP asked ridiculously irrelevant questions in excrutiating detail about the sex acts, with my brain screaming the whole time, "THIS IS WRONG!" My MP instructed me to be very thorough, giving complete details, when writing up the form. I do believe my compositions would have given Penthouse Letters a run for their money. Here I was, a naive virgin myself, writing up explicit descriptions of these missionaries' encounters. Shouldn't, "He had intercourse," be adequate, without describing foreplay, total time elapsed, and emotions experienced during orgasm?

Both missionaries were excommunicated and in each case they spent the night in the Office Staff's home with us. I was able to witness extreme human ANGUISH as these (perfectly normal) young men faced returning home in disgrace.

G-ddamn cult.

That shit will most likely be on their church records for the rest of their life. There is NO such thing as forgiveness in the Mormon church.

If they rejoin the church, that will all come back to haunt them. It will be held over their heads and used like a whip.

They have no problem making a 50, 60,70 year old pay and repay for something they did when they were a teenager. They don't care if it's normal or not. YOU had SEX when you were 19. Would you care to explain it to us? Over and over and over til your dead?

I'm saying this out of experience, not speculation. Baptism, and repentance mean nothing to the church in a case like the ones mentioned.

My daughter's first mother-in-law slept with a guy before her divorce was final that she later married, but confessed and was excommunicated. She was and still is so Molly. She was re-baptized a year later but was unable to attend the kids' wedding because she had to wait a year after re-baptism before she could go to the temple. I felt so bad for her standing outside with the rest of the parents when she was the one who should have been there. The only "worthy" parent was her ex-husband (the groom's father), who it came out later was having an affair with the best man's wife at the time. She was also "worthy" to be in the temple. What a joke it all is.

Anyway, this sweet, extremely good looking, lady gets all her "blessings" back and later divorces the guy she married so quickly after her divorce. She moves to Utah, thinks she's going to start a whole new life and as soon as her new bishop gets her records, he calls her in and says "tell me about Joe Blow (the guy she was ex'd for sleeping with before they were married). She said "why do you need to know about him, we're divorced?" The bishop said that it was on her records that she can never be sealed to Joe Blow so he needed to know the story. Apparently there is some rule that if you are ex'd due to sleeping with someone when you're married to someone else, you can never be sealed to that person down the road. She told him it wasn't an issue, he wasn't a member of the church, never would be, they had no contact. But he said he still had to know the story. Obviously he wanted a hot lady in his office spilling her sex life so he could get his rocks off. And of course, since she is the kind who would jump off any cliff a penishood holder told her to jump off, she did.

She asked me later if she is going to have to re-tell that story every time she moves to a new ward and I told her "Yes and No." There will be some bishops who actually have a little tact and won't worry about it but there will probably be others who see a light-porn opportunity and will jump at it. But apparently it will follow her forever even though she has completely lost track of the guy.

When I was 21, it was May, and I just returning from Europe for a 2-year mission, I met this 19 year old girl at a fireside. Well it was long HOT summa, if you know what I mean. We ended up doing the nastiness in her back yard, one sultry evening. Glad her dad had mowed the day before. Well you know, what can I say. It was Adam and Eve style I guess. Anyway, she felt guilty (course that was x250 afterwards), and I found myself in front of 15 of the most brutal jerks in Eloheims many planets. Seriously, he must have put the most grouchiest in that court room. They wanted to know positions, frequency, clothing or not?, locations, etc. I was starting to become agitated and they detected an attitude. To make a long story short, when they call me back in, they ONLY disfellowship me, but it was after the SP grilled me for being such a "weak weak spirit" with a bad attitude.

That's not nessisaraly true, gay xtian. In the catholic church if you want to be divorced and remarried you have a similar court. It's defiantly different, and it is started by the member, but it is similar.

I am sure, if the local MORG learned of my identity,,,and read 1/2 the stuff I've posted on here...I'd get called to appear.....and I'd maybe even take them up on it...just out of curiosity sake. I'm not worried about my marriage being affected (she's Catholic) or my kids shunning me (they've never gone to a MORG service outside of funerals) and what MORG family I have left are worth worrying about.....so it would be interesting...

After one particular incident when I was 17 following a stake sponsored dance, I was threatened with a disciplinary court. By this time I could have cared less what they did as I would be leaving for the military soon. My parents (both TBMs) I suppose spoke to someone, because I never heard anything else about it. It makes me wonder what they were forced into to get me off. After that, it was adiu to the Morg.

I have a question about a movie. I love "Latter Days" Has anyone seen it? There is a scene where Aaron was summoned to a court of love (gag) and excommunicated for being gay.

I have always wondered if the court of love scene, with all the bretheren around the table, was portrayed accurately. Would there be that many brethern there?

No way, no how, am I making light of all the posters experiences by bringing up a fictional movie, but I cried over that movie and really hoped the way Aaron treated was not accurate.

I have also seen the movie and thought they did take some "artistic license" with the court scene. It was accurate as far as having the 'victim' sit at the far end of a long table that is lined by 15 stern men (12 high council and 3 stake presidency). However, in the movie, the room was dimly lit and gloomy and the camera angles elongated the faces of the stake presidency---not exactly realistic, but effective in showing the mood.

As far as how Aaron was treated, if anything I would say they went easy on him. From my experiences on my mission (see above) and later as a high councilman, the 'victim' (I can't think of a better name) is raked over the coals and humiliated as much as possible. I never felt there was a sense of any forgiveness or love in the room.

At the last court that I participated in (on the high council) before I quit, I sat there mute the whole time while a man was made to feel like mud. The comments from the SP and others were nothing less than cruel. After he was excommunicated and told he could leave, he stood and walked toward the door in silence. I couldn't stand it, got up from the table, walked over to him and gave him a hug and whispered in his ear that I was sorry I was a part of this. Everyone else just sat there and glared at me like I had betrayed them.

That wasn't the only reason for it but within a month of that I told the SP that I quit. I didn't "ask to be released"; I quit.

My personal story is that I took a son in for a bishop's court, different from a full-blown disciplinary council. They use the bishop's court for minor children and lesser "offenses." My 16 year-old son had admitted to having sex with his girlfriend. It was a weird time. I was a non-believer but trying to be the good Mormon dad. I mistakenly thought that maybe my kids could go down the right path and believe and be better members than I, and I was trying to steer him down the right path by taking him in for a proper confession.

We were living in Italy, and had to get the local BP and his counselors together. They heard his story and then put their heads together a bit and discussed things. Then they turned and said, "Well, since the three of us have all done the same thing when we were his age, we don't feel like we can condemn him in any way. We don't condone it, and shouldn't do this anymore." We broke up and that was it.

Something tells me it would not have been so easy in "Zion."