. . . turn language on its head, as FAIR's Bozo the Clown (aka, Michael R. Ash) attempts to do with a straight face.

First, redefine a "chariot" as a "sled," thus removing the need for wheels:

"The Arabic cognate of one of the Hebrew terms for 'chariot' refers not to any kind of wheeled vehicle, but can refer to a ship or a boat. In most instances, the word refers to a device that can move a person or object, but not necessarily a wheeled device. The Welsh cognate to the English 'chariot,' signifies, among other things, a 'dray'--which Webster's defines as 'any of several wheelless land vehicles used for haulage,' and for which it gives as a synonym nothing less than 'travois'; 'dray' is obviously cognate with the verb 'to drag'--or a 'sledge' (which term is, itself, related to words like 'sleigh' and 'sled'--which also plainly denote wheelless vehicles)."

Next, redefine a "horse" as a "deer," thus removing the need for, well, horses:

" . . . [I]f Nephite chariots were not wheeled . . ., why are chariots mentioned in conjunction with Nephite 'horses'? First, Nephite chariots (wheeled or not) may have been pulled by deer or tapirs (which may have been included in the Nephite term 'horse'). Several ancient Eastern and Near Eastern pieces of art and petroglyphs depict chariots drawn by deer. Early Hindus had chariots pulled by deer. We find deer-pulling chariots in Asian art. The Greek goddess Artemis supposedly rode a chariot pulled by deer."

(Michael R. Ash, "Horses in the Book of Mormon," paper based on talk and PowerPoint presentation given by Ash to Book of Mormon Lands Conference, 20 October 2007, at: http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/)

In other words (so to speak), take the wheels off the "chariots" in order to turn them into "sleds," then change a "horse" into a "deer" and--behold!--you have the true order of battle as it gloriously unfolded in the Book of Mormon: Nephites sledding around the theater of combat operations being pulled by deer.
____


Michael, you have just made one big horse's ash out of yourself.



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 01:46AM by steve benson.

It's also possible that Nephite "horses"--at least when associated with chariots--were among the provisions that King Lamoni needed during his travels (we know that horses were part of the provisions which the Nephites reserved for themselves when fighting the Gadianton Robbers [3 Nephi 4:4]). Perhaps "preparing" the horses and chariots would be like "preparing the chicken and backpack." To modern ears this doesn't suggest that the chicken will carry the backpack but rather than a chicken meal will be prepared to go in the backpack. If Book of Mormon horses were eaten, they may have been one of the provisions loaded on a "chariot" and carried or dragged by men.

Ride 'em Tapir boys! Those must have been some mighty slow and lame battles, with sledges dragging behind deer and tapirs. No wonder whole civilizations were wiped out without a trace. A group of archers behind the trees could have wiped them all out before they could get away.

Since god corrected JS if he mistranslated the record, why wouldn't god have used the correct terminology? Oh yeah, because he likes to play tricks on people.

Michael Ash. The biggest buffoon in the LDS apologist arsenal. He rapes what prophets have revealed and what the BOM clearly states. Mike is the best anti-mormon on the planet and he knows it not! With every “may or may not” wild ass assertion he pushes nonsense further into the looniesphere! I think someone inside the top 15 told him to shut the hell up.

Now what to do with the “Backyard Professor”?

is the geography of the BoM changing to Scandanavian countries?

Just bow your head and say Yes!

Were they wearing little red suits trimmed in white fur?

Did they disappear to the north pole to become one of the lost tribes?

Mitt may have only smoked one cigarette, but this guy is smokin something way better than that!

How can he say this stuff and keep a straight face?

At least joe made it easy on himself and stuffed his face in a hat.

One last question. Why is he trying to fix this book? Isn't it the most perfect book on earth?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 07:58PM by mia.

"Most correct book". HHHHHUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGEEEEEE difference!

Let's see...deer pulling a sled....sounds like Santa, Rudolph, and the gang.

jazzskeeter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's see...deer pulling a sled....sounds like
> Santa, Rudolph, and the gang.


Exactly. Nephite/Lamanite battles looked like a Santa Clause slugfest. Jousting Santas...that should be an olympic sport.

I for one, think they are finally on the right track with this quote "The Greek goddess Artemis supposedly rode a chariot pulled by deer."


They are now using references to mythological dieties to justify their own mythological dieties.

works for me. Artemis = Holy Ghost.

Now I know why there were no horses - the Nephites ate them all. Yup, that's what happened.

2 Nephi 12:7
Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots.

Alma 18:9-10
9. And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.
10. Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, …

Alma 20:6
Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots.

let me get this straight:


so, according to FAIR, the nephites were deer sled into battle?


the nephite empire took sleds. millions of them. with millions of deers pulling the sleds. then, the lamanites vaporized all remnants including steel, art, language, history, buildings, bones, roads, etc.

and thanks to another yet-to-be discovered technology, the lamanites even removed their own hebrew DNA for another unknown logical reason.


@ @
---



does anybody know if FAIR is randomly testing employees for drug use?

Has anyone at Fair said " and then one day it ALL fell into the ocean, and THAT is why we can't find it?"

Maybe I should go apply for a job. I can make up crap all day. Being a mormon when I was a teenager taught me how to be an excellent liar. I've had a lot of on the job training.

"Death by a thousand qualifications"

Antony Flew

and I appreciate it! This post, however, highlights the crystal clear nature of the fraud. Deer? Sleds? Ummmm...really?!?!? I don't know who Michael Ash is (qualifications in science, archeology, linguistics...not sure).

Anyway...recently someone posted a Q about B.H. Roberts' assessment of the Book of Mormon on this forum (wayyyy...back when). It was an elegant, concise paragraph that seems to blow away the barrage of current 'apologetics' about 80 years before they were even constructed. Beginning in about 1985 (after Roberts'stuff became known) we see an assault on his work (more recently by real hacks like Michael Ash-although he does not appear to have any expertise or training in any historical or scientific methods. Although, I recognize people like D.H. Peterson pose as Islamic Studies 'experts'-so I guess anything is possible (I regularly have family travel to Egypt and Israel and blog post/e-mail faith promoting connections about the ancient culture and language of the Middle East and the connection to Mormon temple rites, notions of afterlife/heaven, and other AMAZING links to Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

I Stand All Amazed!

Let me if I have this right--In order to remain faithful and worthy to hold the Priesthood, to remain sealed to your spouse and to win an everlasting crown of glory, you must accept the most ridiculous concepts imaginable? That horses were eaten and dragged on a travois? That deer or tapir dragged wheelless chariots into war?

Is this what it takes to be a faithful and righteous LatterDaySaint?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 12:27AM by steve benson.

When is God going to learn to speak English!

A sled is a sled. A deer is a deer. If only God had known how much confusion He would create by not learning the language He was attempting to translate into.

He needs to know that a perfect God should speak perfect English. Otherwise people might question His work.

He'll catch on. With a little more Eternal Progression He'll master English yet.

The BOM is the most poorly written drivel. I can not read a full page without being disgusted.

How my ancestors could have fallen for such "slop" is beyond me. I know that they did not have the advantages of the sources of knowledge that we have today, but to be so lacking in common sence and so gullible--all I can do is shake my head and say--I come from some dumb people.

Maybe santa was inspired by the nephites.

This is hilarious! Thanks for the info, Steve!

"Ownership of animals was a concept completely alien to Native Americans. North America’s Indians had no important domesticated animals before contact with Europeans."

http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/471

Thanks Steve. The fantasies in the imagination of apologists is too funny.

A very informative article on the introduction of the horse and changes it caused to the American Indian was published in 1914.

The Influence of the Horse in the Development of Plains Culture
http://www.archive.org/stream/americananthropo16ameruoft#page/n7/mode/2up

Page 14 indicates that the dog was used for travel and was replaced with the horse.

"so the custom observed in horse days was merely a shift from dog to horse travois, and from walking to riding, and not strictly a new trait. Indeed, why should the Plains people have had the dog travois if they did not go on long journeys by land? Hence, I believe it must be granted that the circumscribed ranging of the Plains tribes was a cultural trait before the advent of the horse."

Apologists imagine tapirs, deer, why not flying monkeys? Can mormons get any further from reality?

Watching how the LDS church explains things is hilarious.