(Posted by: steve benson, RfM, Date: Aug 20, 2007)
--THE NON-SPECIAL TESTIMONIES OF GOD'S ALLEGED "SPECIAL WITNESSES FOR CHRIST"
In another thread, poster "OnTheFence" asked what information I possessed regarding the expression of personal testimony from Mormon apostles illuminating their own status when it came to belief in Mormonism:
"Subject: To Steve Benson--Testimony of General Authorities
Date: Aug 19, 2007
Author: OnTheFence
"I discovered this site about 5-6 months ago and, as you can guess, have found it and the various links I have followed to be quite injurious to my ever more fragile faith.
"While the historical information and analysis I have encountered (which obviously differs markedly from what I have been exposed to in the past) have had a significant impact, I have found the material supplied by Steve Benson to be the most intriguing.
"To be able to interview two apostles (especially Apostles Maxwell and Oaks) would be major fantasy for me. You indicated that the testimonies provided by these leaders were weak at best.
"What about similar experiences with your grandfather? Did he ever describe direct revelation or the basis of his devotion to the church? In your opinion, are most of the Quorum of the 12 solid believers or do you think that there are some closet doubters among them?"
Poster "OnTheFence's" inquiry is one often made by those re-examining their Mormon faith, as they question whether the General Authorities of the LDS Church genuinely believe the Church is true.
Let's put it this way: They may believe it, but do they really know it? And are they forthright with the Mormon membership about what they say claim either believe or know?
Based on my personal contact with some of Mormonism's highest leaders, obtained through direct conversation and correspondence with them, the answers to these questions is simply "No."
The evidence, as I have come across it in my own interaction with these men, is outlined below:
--APOSTLES DALLIN OAKS AND NEAL MAXWELL
In September 1993, I held private conversations behind the closed Salt Lake City LDS Church office doors of Apostle Neal Maxwell, in which I asked both Maxwell and fellow apostle Dallin Oaks the following question:
"What personal spiritual experiences have you had which gave you your testimonies as special witness for Christ?"
In response, Oaks summoned up memories of his days as a college student at the University of Chicago. Back then, he said, he though he "knew a lot" about the gospel. He admitted, however, that he had "questions about the Church"--although he did not elaborate for us exactly what they might have been.
Oaks said a local LDS Institute teacher helped him work out the answers.
Maxwell hearkened back to his days as a boy, when he said he observed his father give a healing "priesthood blessing" to his sibling, whom Maxwell thought was dead.
This, was the sum total of their answers--answers that I did not need to travel 700 miles to Salt Lake to hear. I could have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble if I had just stayed home, gone to the next fast and testimony meeting at our local ward and listened to regular members bear personal witness to the same kind of experiences.
There was no testimony bearing from these modern-day Peters and Pauls of personal visits, in the Flesh, from the Father or the Son.
There was no telling of any "road to Damascus" story
There was no recounting of angelic visitations.
There was no description of rushing winds or flames of fire.
In short, there was "no there there."
During these conversations I had with Oaks and Maxwell, Oaks also told me that the basis for his personal testimony about the truthfulness of Mormonism took the form of a warm spiritual witness which he felt in his heart.
From what Oaks told me, this witness had particular meaning for him with regard to the truthfulness of official Mormon scripture.
Oaks admitted, for instance, that critics of the Book of Abraham seemed to presently have hold the upper hand in arguments against its authenticity.
Oaks told me, however, that the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham ultimately came through a personal, spiritual witness.
Oaks further said that the Book of Mormon could neither be proven or disproven by evidentiary examination, but in the end, also had to be accepted on faith.
In admitting that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon could not be empirically proven, Oaks acknowledged that portions of the Book of Mormon (albeit insignificant, in his opinion) might have potential problems with plagiarism.
Specifically, he admitted that he, too, had wondered while composing his own sermons how the words of the Apostle Paul from his epistles to the Corinthians could end up, almost word for word, in the Book of Mormon, even though Bible prophets preceded their counterparts in the Book of Mormon by generations.
Oaks concluded that God must have inspired Bible and Book of Mormon prophets to speak using the same, exact language.
Oaks then attempted to minimize obvious Book of Mormon plagiarisms by drawing a comparison between the Book of Mormon and one's marriage.
He said that one should not abandon one's marriage because it is not perfect; likewise, Oaks argued that merely because 5% of the Book of Mormon (an estimation he came up with himself based upon a quick perusal of a paperback copy of the book which my wife Mary Ann had highlighted with examples of plagiarisms), one should not abandon it, either.
Regardless, Oaks informed me that he had received a spiritual witness that served as the basis for his personal testimony that the Book of Mormon was true.
Oaks's testimony regarding Mormonism's apostles and prophets was both illuminating--and conditional. . . .
Oaks also did not seem all that certain with regard to the reliability of prophecies uttered by Mormon prophets.
He told me that Church members should not be keeping track of which prophecies had been borne out and, further, that prophecies made by Mormon prophets were for private, rather than public, application.
Oaks downplayed the prophetic role of Mormon Church prophets by asserting that prophesying was only a minor responsibility of prophets. Their major role, he declared, was to testify of Jesus Christ.
Oaks argued that the role of Mormon prophets had evolved over time.
He told me, for instance, that the basic doctrines of Mormonism were revealed by Joseph Smith early on in the history of the Church.
Oaks noted that the more modern approach of Church governance has been, since the time of President Joseph F. Smith, to "beseech his counselors in the First Presidency to help him, to watch over him, so that they could together make the right decisions that God wanted them to make."
Maxwell, like Oaks, seemed personally unsure as to the evidentiary proof for the Book of Mormon.
He told me, for instance, that God would not provide proof of the Book of Mormon until the end--thereby indicating that such proof did not presently exist.
Maxwell also told me that one of the purposes of FARMS was to prevent the General Authorities from being outflanked by the Church's critics.
As to how he personally regarded the pronouncements of president of the Church, Maxwell said it was his duty to be loyal to the Church president.
Maxwell added, however, that he not agree with everything President Ezra Taft Benson had to say on political matters.
This was a particularly interesting admission, given that Benson had earlier (albeit as an apostle) publicly declared that God's prophets could speak authoritatively on all matters, including those of a political nature.
Maxwell, like Oaks, warned me against keeping "box scores" when it came to tallying which prophecies uttered by Mormon prophets turned out to be turned--and which ones turned out to be false.
He further reminded me that Mormon prophets spoke as prophets only when they were acting as prophets--but that, for instance, the teachings about people living on the moon attributed to Joseph Smith were probably misreported.
Maxwell also instructed me as to how revelation for the Mormon Church was actually received.
He said that Joseph Smith's role as unilaterally revealing doctrine in behalf of the LDS Church was a practice not continued by subsequent Mormon prophets.
Maxwell claimed there are four levels of fundamental Church doctrine:
(1) doctrines revealed by the prophet speaking alone;
(2) doctrines revealed by the prophet in conjunction with his First Presidency counselors;
(3) doctrines revealed in First Presidency statements, with the words of the First Presidency assuming "a special status;" and
(4) doctrines revealed by official declaration.
Maxwell and Oaks, together, asserted that what the President of the Mormon Church said must be in compliance with the Standard Works of the Church in order to be accepted as scripture.
Maxwell and Oaks also told me that that when Brigham Young taught what Oaks called the "false" doctrine of Adam-God, it was because he was a young prophet who was in need of the help of some good counselors.
--PRESIDENT EZRA TAFT BENSON
My grandfather's testimony of Mormonism, as expressed to me repeatedly over the years in personal discussions and correspondence, was rooted in two basic beliefs:
The Book of Mormon
He fervently believed that the Book of Mormon was the revealed word of God and an actual historical document. From what I was able to observe, he never, for a moment, questioned its authenticity.
That said, however, I never personally heard or saw him analyze or critique the Book of Mormon in any real depth on issues relating to its alleged historicity, authenticity or reliability.
In private, his feelings about the Book of Mormon were not as resounding or convincing as they were when he was behind the pulpit.
My grandfather did admit to me, one-on-one, that even though he insisted the LDS Church was not neutral on the question of organic evolution, one could argue for or against it from the same Mormon scriptures.
In other words, for all his publicly-expressed confidence in the Book of Mormon, in this particular instance he was not nearly as emphatic or confident in private as he appeared in public about the surety of LDS scripture.
Nevertheless, his hesitancy on that question was not enough to shake his unbending faith in the authenticity of the gold plates.
To my grandfather, they were without question the translated word of God, serving as a pillar of unshakeable, personal, testimonial faith.
Ranking second only to revealed Mormon scripture in battling what he called godless Communism, he told me, were the publications of the John Birch Society--which he told me by letter every American should have access to.
*The Ranking Leaders of the Mormon Church
My grandfather unquestioningly believed, and simply accepted, that the highest leaders of the Church--most notably, the LDS President and the First Presidency counselors, together with the Quorum of the Twelve--were inspired by God in leading the affairs of the Mormon Church. . . .
My grandfather never claimed to me (or anyone else of whom I was aware) that he had personally seen God, Jesus Christ or other divine beings.
He did, however, emotionally inform me that he had had an experience in the Salt Lake temple (regarding the announcement by President Kimball on Blacks and the priesthood) that was too sacred to talk about.
He told me that it was one of the most "spiritual" experiences of his life but that he would not delve into it at all, even though I requested that he do so.
He also informed the assembled Benson family at a Nauvoo, Illinois, reunion that there were other matters which he was not at liberty to discuss, either.
What those were, he never did say.
He was never specific with me in revealing any particular personal experiences of his that formed the basis for his testimony of the truthfulness of Mormonism--other than to bear witness to knowing that truth of LDS claims through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.
**********
(Posted by: steve benson, RfM, Date: October 28, 2013)
Special Witness Smoke 'n Mirrors-No defined substance or unique perspective
--At a Benson family reunion, my grandfather told the gathered kin that he had had personal experiences too sacred to talk about. That did absolutely nothing to move the ball downfield.
ETB also told me the same thing in private conversation in his Church-provided apartment, with tears in his eyes, when I asked him what it was like to be in the Salt Lake temple with other members of the Quorum of the Twelve in June 1978, when Spencer Kimball informed them that the Mormon Church was dumping its anti-Black priesthood ban. All my grandfather did say to me was that it was one of the most spiritual experiences of his life. (Fellow apostle Bruce McConkie later publicly informed a BYU seminary teachers conference that nothing particularly exotic occurred during that temple meeting with Kimball--no angels, no rushing of winds, no appearance of Joseph Smith, etc. McConkie said it was simply a feeling in his heart of the truth of Kimball's directive, delivered to the members of the Quorum through the Holy Ghost. He described it as the kind of personal witness that any faithful member of the Mormon Church would understand. Gee, thanks. As the old song goes, "If that's all there is, my friends, then let's keep dancing").
--When I met privately with Apostles Neal Maxwell and Dallin Oaks in the Church Administration Building in September 1993, I asked them both to describe to me their personal spiritual experience that elevated them to apostolic "Special Witness" status for Jesus Christ.
Maxwell answered by telling me that when he was a young boy he witnessed his father give a healing priesthood blessing to a sibling that brought the sib back from the brink of death.
Oaks responded by telling me that, as a college student, he had questions about the LDS gospel which a seminary and institute instructor helped him work through. Oaks also told me that he got a "knot" in his heart (his word, which he used indicating with his hand toward his chest) that confirmed to him that Mormon Church scriptures were true.
In other words, it all amounts to nothing more than boilerplate testimonials from Mormonism's top dogs that one could hear delivered by anyone else in any wardhouse in any locale in any fast and testimony meeting on any given Sunday.
I don't care how supposedly "too-sacred-to discuss" these duck-and-dodge claims may be. When it comes to Mormonism's leadership actually having these supposedly phenomenally unique encounters with the divine, their descriptions point to this simple truth: There's no "there" there.
My experience with these guys leads me to conclude: Either put up or shut up.
They don't produce the former, so it's time to move to the latter.
_____
see also: "The Totally Lame Answers I Was Fed By a Couple of Mormon Apostles When I Asked Them to Bear Me Their "Special Witness" Personal Testimonies," posted by: steve benson, RfM, Date: November 16, 2010, at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,35903,35903#msg-35903)