My name is Christie and although I've never been a Mormon, unfortunately I've been thrust into the perils of the religion simply by relocating to Utah. We moved here four years ago from Montana and have three girls ages 13, 4 and 2. In Montana my husband and I both had/have Mormon friends and religion was a non-issue. No one cared what denomination you were and although we knew our LDS friends couldn't play on Sunday, life and friendship was "normal". Therefore we had zero idea that Utah was completely different from what we knew and would have never moved here with our current knowledge.

Now living in the midst of what I've come to call Crazyville, I'm really struggling with disdain in my heart for the LDS religion and unfortunately a lot of people that follow it. How can seemingly intelligent individuals believe a lot of these completely irrational and insane teachings? Hence, I've been exploring the internet for the truth and ways to cope with our situation. I've realized there is a Cult mentality and brainwashing tactics.

My biggest problem now is keeping my mouth shut for the sake of my children. Just in the last two weeks alone we've had two judgments passed to our family:

A four-year-old neighbor came over to play with our middle child and saw our coffee pot and immediately said, "Coffee is bad!". My little girl was perplexed by this and I had to explain to her that her mom and dad are not "bad" for drinking a daily cup of coffee or two. So I told this little boy that coffee was good for your heart and to go home and tell his mom and dad to buy some. I immediately felt guilty for saying such a thing but I am exhausted from having to undo damage that the cruel words of little Mormon children create for us.

The second event happened last week. A neighbor passed away very young of cancer (I had never met him) and my thirteen-year-old wanted me to take her to the funeral because his daughter is in some of my daughter's classes. She was questioning someone on the bus of Mormon funerals and asked if she would have to observe his body because her grandmother (my mom) was cremated. Another 7th grader chimed in that our family sinned for burning our relative. Fortunately my daughter is able to laugh at the religion and didn't take it to heart but my younger girls would have struggled with understanding that comment.

I could go on and on and on about the blatant chastisements but I'm sure my point has been made enough. I'm trying to teach my kids to be tolerant, accepting and loving to ALL people and with these feelings of contempt in my heart I'm struggling greatly with that. They witness my anger and occasionally the cruel words that spew out of my own mouth.

I'm a very social person and work outside the home and for the first time in my life I've struggled connecting with co-workers. I've come to understand that I can never have an authentic and genuine relationship with the Mormons here because I now know how they actually feel about nonLDS. My co-worker with whom I literally work 3 feet from deleted a young man off her daughter's Facebook because he was questioning the faith and not attending church. She raved about him and loved him at first because his dad was a Bishop!

We are hopefully going to relocate out of Crazyville in the near future but in the interim please give me advice and suggestions on how to not let these feelings overcome me. This is not a natural state for me and I feel horrible about it. I'm actually no better now than the Mormons that are judging me but how can I not be angry and resentful? I find my mind wandering daily of mean things I can say to Mormons to make them feel as terrible has our family has been made to feel the last few years.

Another problem I have is with the lying and cookie cutter answers that Mormons give to questions. It freaks me out how one can ask the same question of ten different LDS people and get the exact same answer.



Thank you so much!
Christie

And I grew up Mormon. It's very frustrating to confront the groupthink that occurs in Utah.

I'm in the same boat with you. Planning to move as soon as the opportunity arises. Depending on where you live in the state you may be able to meet up with some non-mormon groups. It might help you to cope with the seemingly endless sea of Mormons you encounter on a daily basis around here.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I don't have any suggestions to rid yourself of the disdain, but I do have a suggestion to keep you from obsessing on it.

Unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to connect with people through the regular ways, you're going to have to go out of your way to find people to connect with. Are you in SLC? Maybe you can go to some meeting events: meetin.org scroll to SLC or look up groups with similar interests (that are clearly not LDS, like wine tasting or something) on meetup. com.

Other people here can probably offer better suggestions for actively meeting people, but surrounding yourself with like-minded, non-mormon people is the only way you are going to be able to stop obsessing on, or even focusing on, these things.

No one has any business telling you IN YOUR OWN HOME, what you shouldn't be drinking. You did right by telling that kid the truth.

Depending where you are in UT, you will find more open-minded and intelligent people- try coffee houses, music venues, even volunteer work. I really feel for your kids. I can't imagine the difficulties they will face at those crazy schools.

Several years ago the commander of the USS Pueblo, Lloyd Bucher, wrote a book detailing his experience being in captivity after the North Koreans captured the Pueblo and the entire crew in January 1968. He spent part of his childhood growing up in an area predominately mormon (I forget where specifically), and he relates how he was bullied and made fun of by mormon children because he wasn't a mormon.

I feel for you and your family. The children of those mormons mimic what the parents say, which is true, mostly, of any child anywhere. What is disconcerting is that mormon parents, hence the children, tend to go negative a large majority of the time. That is a lousy and poisonous way to live, but what can be done when in the belly of the beast. They are to be pitied for being such miserable creatures.

Laughing at the nonsense is healthy. For me, I did find it helpful to retort against those comments and judgments which were meant to hurt. It was important for me to stand up to religious bullying. Best of luck to you and yours as you work your way out of the intolerable land.

Glad2B Out

I read that book, my parents had it.

Bucher said it was the first time as a kid he came across religious discrimination.

I moved from CA to Salt Lake City to get married. I was a believing Mormon at the time and every Mormon I knew from outside of Utah tried to talk me out of moving there. They (believing Mormons) told me that the Utah Mormons have terrible manners and very low standards when it comes to living what the church teaches. Utah is weird, even by Mormon standards.

I knew I had to get out of Salt Lake City because I was always SO angry. At the rudeness, at the lack of boundaries people display, at the outrageous arrogance with no foundation for it, the way they look down on outsiders - even Mormon outsiders. It's extremely difficult to deal with. It's important that you keep reminding yourself that you are right and they are wrong. Because it can be absolutely crazy-making otherwise.

My advice would be to create a life, as much as possible, shutting Mormons out. If you can get your kids in a Catholic or other religion-based school where Mormons are unlikely to be, they'll make non-LDS friends. Even if they get a little religion that isn't your own. I have Lutheran friends who send their daughter to Catholic school, hang out with their church friends, belong to a Sierra-Club like hiking group that has very few Mormons in it, non-Mormon friends they vacation and ski with etc. They have a whole life there in Utah with very little contact with Mormons. It's taken them a while to establish it but they really don't mind the Mormons because they aren't involved with the Mormons at all. Except for some rude neighbors when their daughter sold Girl Scout cookies, they have their own little world.

But even better would be to get out, as you are trying to do. Because if Mormons bug you, it just gets worse and worse until you escape. It helped me, as a Mormon, to realize what a lie it is and become an ex-Mormon. When I understood that they were crazy and I was right, it helped a lot. A good book on cult-programming also makes the more fanatical Mormons easier to tolerate. I'd recommend this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Combatting-Cult-Mind-Control-Best-selling/dp/0892813113/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301070655&sr=8-1

Good luck!

Really. And think about it. Junior High years are the absolute pits for everyone. There seems to be some "moral superiority" gene that peaks at about age 13, though a lot of Mormons end up frozen at that emotional age. A kid getting all sanctimonious about a coffee pot is par for the course.

And of course, Mormonism encourages this sort of attitude, which is why so many members are frozen at that emotional age. I've had nevermo friends in Sandy and Olympus Cove who raised their kids from age 10 to now mid 20s, and all the kids have thrived here. They have some great friends, most of whom are also nevermo. Essentially all my friends are nevermo or exmo, and I'm in Holladay, an old, established east bench suburb.

Don't let the idiots get to you. You will be surprised the first time you hear something idiotic, but then you have a chance to formulate an answer for the next time it happens.

Example: "Do you eat pork chops? Well, Jews consider eating prok chops an abomination and an affront to God. Do you fell bad about eating pork chops, because Jews think it is an abomination? No? Well, we don't feel bad about drinking coffee, just because Mormons think it is wrong for them. It's no different from you eating pork chops."

Or: "Your own CHI says cremation is OK, though it doesn't encourage the practice. A lot of cultures, like India, pretty much consider cremation as the only civilized way to dispose of a body, and they think burying the body is both disgusting, and ridiculously expensive." If the kid asks what's the CHI, you can tell him/her it's the Church Handbook of Instructions. Knowing more about the gorey details of their religion than they know themselves will get you instant street cred.

If you read here for very long, you likely will know more about Mormonism than many "active" Mormons do. Much of the RFM crowd studied their way out of Mormonism.

Don't think of it as a battle. Think of it as a game. Living in Utah is a Roadrunner cartoon, and they are the coyote. You're going to win the game, because reality and common sense always win in the long run.

I like BoJ's responses to the coffee and cremation issues. My inclination would be to educate in such a circumstance.

"It is your (Mormon) religious belief/practice to not drink coffee, and that's fine. You should definitely follow your parents' guidance in that matter. But our family believes differently, and that's okay, too. People are different. It would be a pretty boring world if everyone were the same, wouldn't it?"

You could follow up with a young child by talking about how people around the world dress differently and eat different foods -- concepts to which she could relate.

I am not sure what to say to you having lived in Utah for 10 years being Mormon. However, in a way, I have found a lot of humor in your concerns and experiences so forgive me as I am not trying to insult you.

Can anyone else see this as a funny sitcom or movie?

I think my advice to you is to write down all of your experiences as long as you can tolerate it. Then I would try to find someone in Hollywood who could make a script out of it.

I am being serious too (by the way, I am considering leaving mormonism). If you do strike a deal, please be kind enough to cut me in on a piece as I have been out of work too long and need something to care for my family with.

thank you!

Thank you! Thank you all for the support, suggestions and understanding. I will definitely take it all in and implement as many ideas that I can. I cannot tell you how nice it is to relate to other people who understand our plight. I can vent to my out-of-state family/friends but they can't truly empathize with our struggles.

As I said before, if it wasn't for my children I would never keep my mouth shut about the insanity of the LDS religion when it is thrust upon me. A person above by the name of milehighmauler commented that my situation is humorous but that statement makes me want to cry because of my girls. What is comical about children being judged, left out and ridiculed only because they are not Mormon?

With open dialogue and explanation, I can only hope that my three girls will be stronger, more compassionate and free thinkers due in part to their experiences in Utah.
 

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Posted by: honestone ( )

 

The other suggestions here are good.

Finding other non mos to hang out with. And that way you can vent. Etc.

Mostly you'll be forced to "inoculate" your children against the ridiculousness you'll find all the time.

This board is great too!

"It's a thing called 'manners.' It's wrong to come into someone else's home and tell them they're bad people."

And so on.

 

Now get in the box.

Seriously, though, I have nothing to offer you but my sympathy for your situation.

I can tell you that I grew up in a small town in Utah County. At the age of 21 I moved to Salt Lake County. From my experience, Salt Lake County is generally more accepting of non-mormons than just about anyplace else in Utah. This is probably because Salt Lake County has the lowest percentage of mormons living there. I think only the Park City area has a lower percentage of people who are mormon.

It would at least help them get through their mormon minefield of a day at school.


(the meanest thing to say is "So?")


http://www.mnsu.edu/comdis/kuster/TherapyWWW/dugan.html

I have to teach my kids that different people raise their kids differently, and that I am doing what I believe is best, and it is ok for people to disagree on what they believe is best. I talk to my kids about everything, and they know they can ask me anything and I will tell them the truth. So you think Mormonism is stupid? First of all, welcome to 99% of the world! Secondly, don't be afraid to be honest with your kids and give them some sort of defense against the stupidity. Hang in there. :) And feel free to vent or ask questions here.

in fact an excellent response to anything spoken by a marment

99% of the world thinks mormons are ridiculous. I gotta go with the odds on this one.

I, ExMormonRon, hereby swear to come to Utah in the near future and you can point out these parents and I'll bitch slap them to Kolob.

Just sayin'...

 

having to deal with religious insensitivity and bigotry.

We left when our oldest was 5. Now she's 17. We've lived in Utah the whole time.

Our kids have had plenty of those "what the HELL?" moments when other kids have been horribly insensitive and clueless at the same time. They've had to learn to assert themselves.

They've learned to think for themselves, speak up when they feel the urge, and switch friends as necessary.

There are loving and tolerant Mormons out there, and there are bigoted and insensitive ones. You/they just need to pick who you associate with carefully.

. . . and it's nice that you get to move soon.

I agree with the comments that you have to have a sense of humor...

 

I'd just keep educating myself and utilizing my new knowledge at just the right times. Its how I finally came to my senses and resigned membership. Other people over time pointed me to the fraud. Seeds can be planted. Id tell my kids not to take it personally that people think all sorts of weird things but we accept them how they are. My little girl thinks drinking coffee is wrong. I drink it in front of her and tell her we dont all think alike.

 

Hi Christie.
Welcome to the board. I hope you stick around. You can learn a lot about what these kids are being taught at home and at church and that can help you educate your kids. Some of it will blow your mind. Mormonism is really a mindful*k and it can turn decent people into arrogant, judgmental, boundary-less jerks. If I were you, I wouldn’t keep my mouth shut, especially in discussing it with your kids. I can think of two good reasons, and both have been mentioned or alluded to by other posters.

One, your kids eventually will be targets of conversion attempts, even if you ask the Mormon leaders in your area to leave your kids alone. Mormons KNOW deep down that you really want to be a Mormon and have your kids be Mormons IF you just soften your heart. They think “lovebombing” will soften your heart. Unfortunately, lovebombing can be effective with kids because they don’t see it as the manipulative tool of conversion that it is. They see it as the Mormons being friendly and really good people who LOVE them and include them. Your kids will get lots of attention because of it. They don’t realize that once they join, the lovebombing stops and they will be considered less-than because they are converts. It’s another mindfu*k because of how much effort Mormons put into converting non-Mormons but being BIC (Born in the Church or Born in the Covenant) is a sign of righteousness. That’s another whole discussion in itself.

Two, it’s a great opportunity for you to teach your kids to use facts and logic to handle people, Mormon or not-Mormon, who are trying to shame them or put them down. You can teach them to stand up for themselves without losing their cool or being defensive. They will probably get lots of practice with Mormons, unfortunately. Other posters have given great suggestions on the coffee incident such as discussing with your kids the research about the benefits of coffee.

I really wish my mom had taught me those skills, but she didn’t know them. Instead, she just got upset that kids (or adults) were being jerks or had said something rude. I stopped telling her things that happened because I didn’t want to upset her. I had to learn those skills on my own, and I use them a lot, not just with Mormons. I think empowering kids with those kinds of skills can prevent hits to their self-esteem, but I might be projecting my own experience.

I’m going to digress for a short explanation of some Mormon beliefs so you’ll have context for the part following it. My apologies if you already know about these parts of Mormonism and don’t need the background.

Some Mormon jargon:
Bishop=leader of a congregation within a particular geographical area known as a ward.
Primary=the program for Mormon youth up to age 12.
Young Men (YM) or Young Women (YW)/Mutual/MIA=the program (that has had many name changes) for youth from ages 12-18.

Some Mormon background:
Mormons have “13 Articles of Faith” that are basic tenets of the Mormon faith. Back in the day (and maybe still today), memorizing the “13 Articles of Faith” and then reciting them to the bishop was a requirement for Mormon kids to graduate from Primary to YM orYW/Mutual/MIA, or whatever they’re calling it now. It might not be emphasized as much these days, but it’s still a basic part of Mormon religious beliefs. Missionaries and members used to have the "13 Articles of Faith" printed on the backs of business-type cards and would hand them out as a way of introducing Mormon beliefs. Not sure if that’s still something they do.

Sorry for torturing you with that, but it’s useful information for you and your kids to use on the meddling Mormons. A good, short comeback refers to the 11th Article of Faith. It states:

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

As an example you could factually state to the coffee-is-bad kid: “So you don’t believe in your own 11th Article of Faith? I thought Mormons were supposed to follow their 13 Articles of Faith. Why don’t you follow it? If you followed it, you wouldn’t be telling us how we should practice our family’s beliefs. Our beliefs don’t teach that coffee is bad.”

If you have a religion, you can have the kids preface it with “My religion teaches…” If you aren’t religious, you can have them substitute, “My family believes…” “My family thinks…” will not have the impact, imo, that using “believes” will because Mormonism doesn’t teach people to think. In fact, thinking is bad, especially if it leads them to question their leaders. Belief is their bailiwick even when facts prove their belief(s) wrong. Sadly, many Mormons aren’t taught a lot about their religious beliefs, so you might have to explain the 11th Article of Faith and how he/she is violating a Mormon belief. The majority of church time is spent teaching them a whitewashed history of Mormonism and drilling obedience to the Mormon rules-de-jour.

One final note, I think it’s important not to teach your kids that this behavior is a Utah thing because once you move to another state, you still want your kids to be wary of Mormon-think when they encounter Mormons. If they mention they’ve lived in Utah, the Mormons will come out of the woodwork.

On the board, you occasionally will see references to “Utah Mormons” or “California Mormons.” Some California Mormons like to believe that they are superior to Utah Mormons usually as a way of combatting Utah Mormons who believe they are superior to California Mormons.

Some Utah Mormons think California Mormons are lax in their beliefs and too worldly. Some California Mormons think Utah Mormons are boundary-less and rude and have never traveled outside of Utah. IMO, these sweeping generalizations are ignorant. It’s a very Mormon mindset to believe they are superior to other people, whether it’s superior to non-Mormons, ex-Mormons, or Mormons who live in another state.

Rather than it being about geography, I think it’s about concentration. I’ve lived in different places and traveled to all the states and many countries, and I’ve found wherever there is a concentration of Mormons, the judgmental, superior behavior is pronounced. If there’s not a geographical concentration of Mormons, you’ll still see that behavior when they gather for church on Sunday. They’ve just learned how to hide it better when they are amongst the gentiles (anyone who’s not Mormon).

In many parts of Utah, obviously, there are concentrations of Mormons, so the superior, boundary-less behaviors are on blast a lot of the time. Most Mormons, regardless of state-of-residence, are boundary-less, intrusive, and think they know better for you than you know for yourself. Their “one true church” belief dictates superiority. They’ve got the truth, you don’t. So there!

By the way, not that it matters, but when I was Mormon, I lived in California (at least for the majority of my Mormon years) and would have been characterized as a “California Mormon.” I love me some California! The times I’ve visited Utah, the Mormon-speak I hear everywhere makes me kuh-ray-zee. Standing in line at a grocery store wearing a tank top and shorts with an iced tea in my hand listening to the people in front of me discussing their “callings” and the people behind me discuss the Word of Wisdom makes me want to “Long Island” my iced tea. Too bad I hate the way alcohol tastes.

Good luck with your stint in Mormonsville. You sound like a great mom.
 

Your post is so insightful and I appreciate the time you took in helping with my current situation. I can see how the skills you mentioned teaching my girls would be invaluable for life in general. Thank you.

I've loved all the inside information people have given me here. It helps me feel a little stronger in standing strong in my belief system. I am a non-practicing Catholic but I really live by two main values that I'm trying to instill in my children: 1. Live and let live (as long as no one is being harmed) 2. Treat other's the way I wish to be treated.

Treat others the way I wish to be treated is really what brought me to this board. Although I'm not overtly being rude (yet), the inner turmoil that's building from watching my girls struggle from the haughtiness of many of the Mormons in my particular area just doesn't sit well with me.

Thank you so much!

...and we don't have too difficult of a working relationship. My girlfriend's Mom works in an office where she is the only non-LDS person, and she gets along great with her colleagues.

This may be a problem in your specific neighborhood, but is definitely not a problem with all LDS folks.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and we don't have too difficult of a working
> relationship. My girlfriend's Mom works in an
> office where she is the only non-LDS person, and
> she gets along great with her colleagues.
>
> This may be a problem in your specific
> neighborhood, but is definitely not a problem with
> all LDS folks.


I agree. In most cases, in my experience, religion was never an issue, and people get along just fine. In one place I worked, they were very strict about not discussing religion or making off color jokes, and a lot of other things. As a result, a level of professional found it's way to the top!!
They were really ridiculous about other things though! :-)

You have so much in common!

Thank you. I actually get along with everyone where I work. It's just different for me here in Utah because in the past I've always made at least one lifelong friend that I took with me from that employment and I'm just struggling authentically connecting with anyone. Perhaps it's my newly found attitude that I probably wear on my sleeve more than I think.

Living in a neighborhood, area, high school and city that in the 1950's and 60's was ridiculously Mormon. Lived in Salt Lake and Utah for 50 years. The company sent me on an assignment to Massachusetts for a 4 week stint. After being here for 2 weeks, standing on the boardwalk on the beach on a dismal rainy august day I looked around and thought, "I am never going home". And I never did. I've visited twice in 9 years just to say hi to the folks. It'll be a fun day when you pack up and leave. I've hit the point where my intolerance through this recovery process doesn't allow me to mentally be around them.

..many many years ago when we lived in Utah. I would have given my right arm to be able to have read a post like yours if only for the moral suppport.

We moved away 25+ years ago and I STILL have some anger left. Mind you we still have to deal with TBM family members. I had been raised a Christian nevermo from the East. I went to BYU where I met my future husband who was an RM. I was sort of on the fence about joining Mormonism; DH married me anyway. Shortly after marrying I found out the full-blown truth about the Morg and delved deeper into Christianity. I myself did not drink nor engage in any behaviour the Mormons could disagree with (other than tea-drinking and not being a Mormon), life there was MISERABLE. I became very very angry and STILL can't stand being in Utah for even vacations. Can't stand being around a big group of Mormons for very long.

When you leave for good you will feel as though a 100 pound weight has been lifted from you. Look forward to that day! Until then, avoid Mormons as much as possible!

out

Thank you. Honestly my heart is filling with peace just knowing that we are not alone and there are many, many others to validate our experiences.

I agree about protecting my children here in Utah. We have been looking into the Catholic school, Juan Diego. My daughter actually played volleyball and basketball in their program last year (because sports for grade school girls are also hard to find but cheerleading and dance are a dime-a-dozen) and the aura of just walking into a normal environment to watch the games was exhilarating.

We live in Bluffdale in a very Mormon neighborhood, going on two years. It's so funny that you mention Mormon kids playing at your home. We are experiencing the exact same thing. Our two little girls are never invited into their homes but they come play at ours all the time and for hours on end. We want an open home and love our girls to have friends over but it does get to be a bit much. One four-year-old was at our home until 9pm in the dark and when the mom came and got her, didn't even thank us and we fed her hungry child! Another little girl was at our house in excess of two hours before her father searched the neighborhood for her location. When he finally found her he had the audacity to be angry at us.

Funny and very true story: One mom came to get her daughter and we invited her in. She told us immediately that she doesn't like children playing in her home and that if her daughter causes any trouble while here, feel free to send her home. My husband is quite funny and he said something to the effect of not to worry because he would just spank her. The mom giggled and put her hand on my husbands arm and said, "Save that for me". I about croaked right then and there and my husband was too stunned to make a comeback. I don't hold a grudge though because I feel sorry for her.