| Subject: | Apostles no longer special witnesses of Jesus Christ. Who knew? |
| Date: | Sep 16, 2009 |
| Author: | the chesse |
| While reading over the changes in the new “Gospel
Principles” book I came across an odd change. “Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of "the name of Jesus Christ," teach the gospel and regulate the affairs of the Church in all parts of the world…” Personally, I am very happy that they can clear this up. Think of all the hours lost to this great debate. I can not wait for conference. Who will be the first of the 15 to testify that Jesus Christ is really the savior’s name? Once they have said it, then they can get back to their real job “regulate the affairs of the church.” So I get it, they do not get to see JC anymore, but who told them his real name? I guess they got tired of people asking them if they have seen JC. Now they can simply say “No, I have not seen JC, but I testify to you that his true name is Jesus Christ, in the true name of Jesus Christ, Amen.” Really? Jesus Christ? Thanks for clearing that up. I think TSCC [this so called church] needs more of these witnesses, like special witnesses of the name of John the Baptist, and Peter, James, and John special name witnesses. Now everyone can have a calling. http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles Chapter 17-The Church of Jesus Christ Today |
| Subject: | Excellent point-Jesus Christs real name is Yeshua and Christ is a title...n/t |
| Subject: | Exactly! |
| Date: | Sep 16 16:17 |
| Author: | brefots |
| Even trying to dumb it down to dodge the bullets of reason they cannot get it right. They've painted themselves in a corner with this one. |
| Subject: | so, like they meet with historians who study Judiasm |
| Date: | Sep 16 13:45 |
| Author: | transplant in texas |
| and testify that Jesus was indeed named, well, Jesus?
when i was a child & when i left in 2007 (i'm 29 now btw) they were "special witnesses of Jesus Christ." just another step into another protestant faith... |
| Subject: | Dumbing Down? |
| Date: | Sep 16 13:46 |
| Author: | Guy Noir, Private Eye |
| *gasp* |
| Subject: | That is *huge* imo!!! |
| Date: | Sep 16 13:46 |
| Author: | Tiphanie |
| OMG they just admitted their mere mortals like
everyone else!! Unless I'm interpreting this wrong, didn't the top *dogs* just admit the morg is NOT anything speshul after all??? |
| Subject: | This really is huge. |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:04 |
| Author: | Primus's First RfM Moniker |
| That comes very close to saying that apostles don't
get to meet Christ, which is how the job used to be described. Are they
admitting that the leaders of the church are just wise old men? Basically
elders in the Presbyterian sense? If so, then they don't have any special
authority. Wow. |
| Subject: | Back in 1997 I attended an event for temple workers |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:07 |
| Author: | Cristina |
| in the Salt Lake temple's Solemn Assembly room. Thomas
Monson who was in the first presidency at the time was the main speaker. We
were all gathered there dressed in white in that beautiful enormous room on
the fifth floor of the temple expecting to hear some truly faith promoting
stories. He told stories about how at the temple's dedication people saw
angels. Then he told us that he has NEVER PERSONALLY HAD ANY VISIONS but that he receives a witness of things through the spirit. My friend who was with me almost had a heart attack. She turned to me and said, "I thought that twelve apostles were witnesses of Christ because they had personally seen the Savior!" |
| Subject: | Quinn discusses this |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:44 |
| Author: | Richard Packham |
| In D. Michael Quinn's book "Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power" (i.e., volume 2) he discusses how this change gradually occurred. In the earliest days of the church a new apostle was instructed that he must have a vision of Christ. By the 20th century the apostles were instructed that they were to be witnesses "as though" they had actually seen Christ. |
| Subject: | Re: Quinn discusses this |
| Date: | Sep 16 15:07 |
| Author: | robertb |
| Richard Packham wrote: >In the earliest days of the church a new apostle was instructed that he must have a vision of Christ. By the 20th century the apostles were instructed that they were to be witnesses "as though" they had actually seen Christ. ============== That is fascinating. With the injunction to have a vision and the support of a culture (or sub-culture) that accepted and rewarded such experiences, the early Mormon apostles likely found it easier to induce such an experience. Smith also seemed adept at getting people to see what he wanted them to see or at least to say they did. Visual hallucinations also seem to be the easiest to induce. You can see how Susan Clancy's work on the alien abduction fits here. I have summarize the main points of her book Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens: • People who experience difficult or unusual things sometimes try to explain them using whatever information is available in their environment. They may continue to "try on" explanations until one "feels right" to them. • Once they find a good fit, they begin to filter and bias information to strengthen their interpretation. Some people are willing to lose friends and endure terrible "memories" to hold on their interpretation of events and will not accept more plausible and less painful explanations. • Although scientists don't accept anecdotal experience, it is nonetheless given great importance by most people because it *feels* real and fits their daily experience of reality. • Imaginative people, especially those with strong visual imagination, are prone to memory errors and under the right conditions can come to believe imaginary events are real. This is particularly true when people are encouraged over a sustained period to describe visual events in the presence of an authority figure who validates the imaginary events. Authority figures can consciously or unconsciously manipulate or reinforce certain interpretations when a person is in a susceptible state. I think this last point is especially telling. I would also add hallucinations are not all that uncommon in people without mental illness. Such experiences seem to be part and parcel of being human. |
| Subject: | Re: Quinn discusses this |
| Date: | Sep 16 16:44 |
| Author: | Michael Pace |
| Isn't this how the "witnesses" saw the "golden plates"--in vision? |
| Subject: | Interesting. . . |
| Date: | Sep 16 17:30 |
| Author: | hasitaname? |
| As things evolve, soon it will be enough if the new
apostles are rich and just say they believe in Christ. Or at least admit
that Jesus said some cool things, and may or may not have existed. The delusional/crazy requirement for apostles is being reduced. This is not a bad thing. |
| Subject: | Simple Explanation! |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:46 |
| Author: | Guy Noir, Private Eye |
| with things running Soooooooooooooooo Smooooooooothly
in the World: no wars, no hunger-famine, illness & injuries things of
long-past memories....Who Needs a Spechul Witness of Christ? really, 'Seriously'! |
| Subject: | So many changes, so little time. They must be going 24/7... |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:57 |
| Author: | Liza |
| to shut the barn door. This one change is incredibly important to those who think the GAs have seen Jesus Christ. I was taught from the earliest time that they all must have a special witness of Christ or they couldn't be an apostle. I guess they realize they can't see what isn't there. Nice catch on the new manual. Goes right along with 'among the principle ancestors' from the new BoM change. When will they change the testimony of the witness from 'which is one God' to something closer to a trinity? I suggest that may be coming soon. Morphing at its best. |
| Subject: | When Elder Bednar [Mormon Apostle] came to talk to the youth in our stake ... |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:54 |
| Author: | Huh? |
| The youth were instructed that there was one rule,
don't ask him if he has seen God or Christ. I don't know if that was a local
kind of rule or from S.L. H.Q. I also heard that this reply was once made by a G.A., don't know if it was Bednar or not: "If you don't consider me rude for not answering, I won't consider you rude for asking." |
| Subject: | HORRORS! |
| Date: | Sep 16 14:58 |
| Author: | Guy Noir, Private Eye |
| Don't Ask, Don't Tell, MoStyle!! aka: The Warm Fuzzies WIN AGAIN!!!! |
| Subject: | My Opinion |
| Date: | Sep 16 15:29 |
| Author: | Leaving |
| I think that the "brethren" are not as delusional as JS and know that in this technological age claims can be checked more easily and quickly. They have seen the holes in the time line of the first vision and don't want the same thing happening to their vision stories. |
| Subject: | Mmm, makes me wanna ask |
| Date: | Sep 16 16:00 |
| Author: | rt |
| "Why aren't we supposed to ask you whether you've seen God or Christ?" |
| Subject: | Again, isn't a 'witness' supposed to answer questions about what they have or haven't seen... |
| Date: | Sep 16 17:08 |
| Author: | Gazelam |
| ...its not rude to ask if you've seen Jesus, if you claim to be a 'special' witness of JC. |
| Subject: | The LINK that you provided is VERY INSTRUCTIVE & HELPFUL |
| Date: | Sep 16 15:05 |
| Author: | Zounds |
http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles Talk about docrinal migration! It isn't just the "special witness" stuff, it's a world of other things as well. Look at the other changes that have been made over the years, especially regarding the "God-was-once-a-man" doctrine. What they are no longer saying speaks volumes about Mormonism (but I do wish that God would make up his mind about what he tells his prophets). |
| Subject: | Well it's a darn good thing they testify of what Jesus Christ's name really is |
| Date: | Sep 16 15:08 |
| Author: | CA girl |
| because an awful lot of the members in our stake were starting to call the Savior "Bob". It just sounded more approachable. Now the GA's can nip that in the bud, having authority to do so and all. |
| Subject: | LOL - CA Girl, you've got a problem - I love it. |
| Subject: | Didn't they recently say 'we come to you in our true identities as apostles of Jesus Christ.?? |
| Date: | Sep 16 15:37 |
| Author: | confused |
| I thought I read that here somewhere... |
| Subject: | The change hasn't been made yet to Chapter 17 on LDS.org yet. |
| Date: | Sep 16 16:02 |
| Author: | Prof. Plum |
| "A prophet, acting under the direction of the Lord, leads the Church. This prophet is also the President of the Church. He holds all the authority necessary to direct the Lord’s work on earth (see D&C 107:65, 91). Two counselors assist the President. Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel in all parts of the world. Other general officers of the Church with special assignments include the Presiding Bishopric and the Quorums of the Seventy." |
| Subject: | before this, |
| Date: | Sep 16 17:52 |
| Author: | Guy Noir, Private Eye |
| apostles were Special Witnesses of the RESURRECTION of
J.C.; now, Not So Much. they make a JOKE of their own sayings. |
| Subject: | Updated!! |
| Date: | Sep 16 18:56 |
| Author: | the cheese |
| ********Chapter 15 changed also. **********D&C 107:23- It seems that they changed it to match what is in the D&C. 107:23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. |
| Subject: | The most current Gospel Principles - does not match the OP statement. LINK |
| Date: | Sep 16 19:14 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| This is the latest publication: "Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel in all parts of the world." Read Chapter 17 yourself here: The Church was organized with the same offices as were in the ancient Church. That organization included Apostles, prophets, seventies, evangelists (patriarchs), pastors (presiding officers), high priests, elders, bishops, priests, teachers, and deacons. These same offices are in his Church today (see Articles of Faith 1:6). A prophet, acting under the direction of the Lord, leads the Church. This prophet is also the President of the Church. He holds all the authority necessary to direct the Lord's work on earth (see D&C 107:65, 91). Two counselors assist the President. Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel in all parts of the world. Other general officers of the Church with special assignments include the Presiding Bishopric and the Quorums of the Seventy. The offices of the priesthood include Apostles, seventies, patriarchs, high priests, elders, priests, teachers, and deacons. These are the same offices that existed in the original Church. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-24,00.html There are several publications of this manual. They do not all say the same thing. There are some changes. |
| Subject: | Re: Apostles no longer special witnesses of Jesus Christ. Who knew? |
| Date: | Sep 16 19:18 |
| Author: | Flecher |
| Tithing is still ten percent. Damn Some things never change. |
| Subject: | The new manual for the 2010 curriculum says different |
| Date: | Sep 16 19:37 |
| Author: | confused |
|
http://www.mrm.org/gospel-principles Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses [of the name] of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel [and regulate the affairs of the Church] in all parts of the world... [...] = added words to the 2010 manual Original wording from 1997: Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel in all parts of the world... |
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