| Subject: | Mormon financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30, 2008 |
| Author: | Phil |
| I don't know why no one has ever talked about the ward finances if they were ever a financial clerk for the ward or not. I wanted to know what ward budgets are like. How much funds are raised in a year for a ward and how much is spent in the ward. I'm assuming wards only spend like 10% of their income and they send the rest back to headquarters. But i was never a clerk so does anyone know? |
Examples: [Ward is a Mormon congregation of around 600 members on the rolls and about 200-250 (or less) active members. The size of a ward varies dramatically based on activity. Some wards can be quite small or large due to geography or location in the US]
Salt Lake City Ward: Tithing donations averaged just a touch over $500,000.00 for a year. Again, on average, the various missionary, education and temple project funds garnered about $17,000.00 to 20,000.00 and Fast offering ran $25,000.00 to 30,000.00.
California: Our ward was relatively affluent in So Cal. We took in about $950,000 in total contributions. Our Ward allotment from the stake was around $8000. All the utilities are paid by the stake. The 8000 was basically to run ward programs and activities. The 950,000 included all tithing, fast offering, missionary,.. etc... [The majority of the $950,000 stayed in the Salt Lake City corporate headquarters. The Mormon church does not publish or release how these vast sums of money are spent.]
A less affluent Ward: I was in a ward that was mostly retired and blue collar members... I was involved in tithing settlement total donations were nearly 200,000. The following years tapered off a little due to economy and move outs. We would send as much as 5,000 in tithes to Salt Lake in a good week... then watch the bishop agonize over giving someone a $100 in groceries.
California affluent: I was in one of the most affluent wards in California. We took in $25-50,000 a week in tithes alone. Our annual ward budget from Salt Lake was a measly $7-8,000 a year!
Student Ward in Utah: I was the clerk of a STUDENT ward in Logan Utah during the mid 1990's. I don't remember specific numbers but we took in something like $250k in tithing in a year. I remember thinking something along the lines of: "Wow, there are six student wards in just this one building. That's significantly more than $1M per year just from this one building."
A lower income ward: We are in a lower income area and send in around 400K/year and our ward budget is around 4K/year. Nearly every week the bishop comes in to the clerk's office, anxious to find out what the fast offering total is...But it churns my gut every time, as we deposit around $10,000 every Sunday, to see how it kills the bishop to consent to pay someone's electric bill.
Another example:
Seven years ago, we brought in about $15,000 per week [$750,000/yr] and our allotment back
from SLC was about $7,000 for the year.
| This is just an estimate as the Mormon church does not publish its finances. It appears in the US, the Mormon church takes in $5-8 billion a year in tithing alone. It gives out less than $65 million ( less than 1.3% of tithing income) in humanitarian aid. It gives back to local congregations (wards) less than 1.5% for their activities. This does not include income from the many business ventures the Mormon church owns which may well more than double what it receives in tithing. |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30 00:35 |
| Author: | Clerksville |
| The wards do not receive budget from the members. All money that comes in goes upstream to the church. The wards then get a budget allotment from headquarters based on average sacrament meeting attendance the last month of each quarter. I do not know the multiplier for figuring the allotment. |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? I was |
| Date: | Dec 30 00:35 |
| Author: | confused |
| The budget is based on the number of actively
participating membership. The Stake then issues a budget which is divided
between YM, YW, Scouts, RS, EQ, HP, Lbrary, Office (general usage materials) and
others as needed. At the end of the year, the budget is reassessed and depending on usage, the numbers may go up or not increase. Part of my duties was to send out quarterly budget reports to each auxiliary so that they could keep track. As there are no longer fund-raisers, the money is made through tithes and then are allotted to each Stake/Ward from SLC. |
| Subject: | Yes, and one thing that really bugged me |
| Date: | Dec 30 01:01 |
| Author: | confused |
| was when I was working on the Budget one year, I also
printed out my tithing settlement report. I donated to the ward the same
amount that was in our ward budget. I figured there were at least an average
of 80 people who donated about the same so SLC got all the extra and kept
it. To answer your question, at tithing settlement all of the donors are compiled and a report is sent to the Stake with a summary of all donations. They submit that to SLC who in turn determine how much we get for budgets based on attendance, income (tithe payers) and the previous years usage. Fast offerings are not in this equation-they remain in the stake, or are credited to the stake for welfare purposes. |
| Subject: | exmo's |
| Date: | Dec 30 00:36 |
| Author: | Phil |
| I was wondering if any of you were clerks before or ever saw any reports. I asked my dad who was a stake financial clerk. He said stakes only spend 10% of what they earn. That's what i've been seeing to for canadian lds finances. |
| Subject: | I was a tithing/offering clerk. |
| Date: | Dec 30 00:39 |
| Author: | micaiah |
| I saw the checks coming in in my BYU ward in the late 80's. It was just my job to keep track of incoming checks and cash and add it up. It's been 20 years, so I can't recall much else....it just seemed efficient and boring to me. |
| Subject: | did you remember the finances |
| Date: | Dec 30 00:42 |
| Author: | Phil |
| so it was a long time ago, do you remember thinking the ward was bringing in a lot of money, especially for a college ward? or was it just chump change |
| Subject: | Former Clerk, now Exmo |
| Date: | Dec 30 04:31 |
| Author: | Lovechild |
| Until seven years ago, I belonged to one of the stakes
in Olympus Cove. (Salt Lake City: East Bench/ Millcreek Area) I was the ward clerk for 3 years, then I quit the church. A very wealthy area, but light on young Mormon families. Ward Census was about 260 with an average age of about 60 and Sacrament meeting attendance at about 35%. There may be a few of you that remember my old posts about the "Eyring Prophecy." To the topic: Tithing donations averaged just a touch over $500,000.00, Again, on average, the various missionary, education and temple project funds garnered about $17,000.00 to 20,000.00 and Fast offering ran $25,000.00 to 30,000.00. Budget at that time came from the Stake on a Quarterly basis at $9 times the average Sacrament meeting attendance for the previous quarter. Which meant our ward budget was just a bit over $4,200.00 per year average. We had extra (prohibited) fundraisers for youth conference and all that stuff. All of the money that came into the clerk's office went right to Church HQ. We had a check book (drawn on a "Corporation" account) to pay the telephone bills, buy copier paper, buy stuff for ward parties etc. and we also wrote checks each year for $12,000.00-15,000.00 worth of "welfare": Helping ward members with utility bills, Cobra payments, etc. for people who were out of work or had some other crisis. |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30 11:09 |
| Author: | JayDee |
| I was a financial clerk. Our ward was relatively affluent in So Cal. We took in about $950,000 in total contributions. Our Ward allotment from the stake was around $8000. All the utilities are paid by the stake. The 8000 was basically to run ward programs and activities. The 950,000 included all tithing, fast offering, missionary,.. etc... |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30 11:18 |
| Author: | DFWEASEL |
| Our ward sent about 700k to SLC and receive about 5k from the Stake. The Bishop did talk about the blessings from the well-to-do; and rich received the so-called important callings. |
| Subject: | In comparing this to my new church |
| Date: | Dec 30 11:46 |
| Author: | Emalee |
| I am shocked. Each week our new church prints the
financial issues of the church in the program. It lists the money, to the
penny, that they take in the week before. All of the money is used in our
local church or given to one of the many ministries. All of these things are disclosed to the congregation. Next week we will be going over our yearly budget, and everything will be disclosed. All members are allowed to vote on the budget. Wow, what a difference? I just don't understand how LDS members tolerate not knowing where any of their money is going, and they have no control over it. Sounds like the biggest financial scam of the century. |
| Subject: | financial clerk for 6 years |
| Date: | Dec 30 11:53 |
| Author: | halfbreed |
| I was in a ward that was mostly retired and blue
collar members. There was one professional in our ward. the first year I was
involved in tithing settlement total donations were nearly 200,000. The
following years tapered off a little due to economy and move outs. We would send as much as 5,000 in tithes to Salt Lake in a good week. Then watch the bishop agonize over giving someone a $100 in groceries. The stake paid the utilities on the ward building. The church building person took care of building maintenance. The ward had use of fast offering funds and a ward budget of about $5,000 a year. I think the bishopric and I were the only members of the ward that knew the numbers. I now attend a church that has a yearly business meeting where a financial statement of all donations and expenditures are given to all members. 97% of all donations remain in the congregation. 3% goes to support district higherups. The congregation partially supports 14 missionaries scattered all over the world. Some of these have been missionaries 25 years. A lifetime dedication not a one or two year pat myself on on the back mission. We had a halloween party and invited the community it turned out really nice. There was probably $1,000 put into the party. Free at last free at last. |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30 11:54 |
| Author: | Crathes |
| I have been a clerk three times. Twice prior to the
consolidation of funding, and once since. Regarding voting on budget
expenditures, I recall approx. 30 years ago when the Bishop got up in a
combined meeting (all adults) and reviewed the costs and budgets for the
coming year, including estimated budget donations (not tithing) and costs
(utilities, books, etc., etc.). We discussed programs and various
organizations, projected activities and their costs, etc. At that point,
when we had spent quite some time with the budget, we voted. Note this was
only on budget, not tithing, fast offerings, etc. You will never see those
days again. Fast offerings stay local, for all intents and purposes, with specific guidelines provided by Salt Lake. Tithing, on the other hand, is a black hole. No visibility, and it SUCKS! |
| Subject: | Re: financial clerks, any one ever a clerk? |
| Date: | Dec 30 14:34 |
| Author: | anon1234567890 |
| I was the clerk of a STUDENT ward in Logan Utah during the mid 1990's. I don't remember specific numbers but we took in something like $250k in tithing in a year. I remember thinking something along the lines of: "Wow, there are six student wards in just this one building. That's significantly more than $1M per year just from this one building." |
| Subject: | It's much more modern now... |
| Date: | Dec 30 14:55 |
| Author: | Sparky |
| Most wards transmit straight to AMEX financial
services via modem. The money is counted and tallied - the connection is
made, the transmission is sent to AMEX and then the deposit is made that
same day (Sunday). In my ward, we didn't have a working modem - so we called a toll free number and read the figures to an AMEX employee on the other end (yes - working on Sunday) - then made the deposit. Seven years ago, we brought in about $15,000 per week and our allotment back from SLC was about $7,000 for the year. Steve |
| Subject: | This is all great information |
| Date: | Dec 30 15:46 |
| Author: | Phil |
| Mail Address: |
| The same thing is said in Canada where the lds church
publishes their finances by law. only around 4% of the income is expenses on
the ward level. Now that the church is ending it's building projects, expenses for the church are going to be tiny. |
| Subject: | chapels |
| Date: | Dec 30 16:21 |
| Author: | phil |
| They are going to stop building chapels now unless
they absolutely have to. before they would build churches when ever they
wanted even if there wasn't a real need for them. 400 chapels a year for a
decade is a massive building project. Same thing with temples. They are
going to finish building them for a long time. That's the main expense for the church. building chapels and temples. Now that it's done, what expense do they have? Electricity? that's about it. |
| Subject: | other religions |
| Date: | Dec 30 16:25 |
| Author: | Phil |
| Mail Address: |
| I've been looking at finances of other religions and
they are going to face major problems. 60% of their expences are solely on
administration. Some i've seen up to 75% with massive loans on their
churches. then they spend 95% to 100% of their income that same year for
their programs. Even the RLDS spends 60% of their entire budget on administration. It either goes to headquarters administration costs or to their pastors. |
| Subject: | $780,000 in and $7,000 in return. |
| Date: | Dec 30 17:49 |
| Author: | jamie |
| That is quite the racket that the mafia bosses in the
Church Office Building are running. It would be interesting to see what
these crooks are really doing with the money. I often look at people like
General Robert C. Oaks who supposedly has impeccable morals and wonder why
he is working with the unethical thugs in SLC via the Quorum of the Seventy.
It really shakes a person's faith in humanity when a man who takes the following oath will participate in the fraud of Mormonism: "We will not lie, steal or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. Furthermore, I resolve to do my duty and to live honorably, so help me God." |
| Subject: | No relation between tithing paid and ward budget |
| Date: | Dec 30 16:31 |
| Author: | lump |
| As has been stated, the amount that is collected in tithing really has no bearing on the amount of $$ received by the Stake for running ward programs. Typically, the Sacrament Meeting attendance for the months of March, June, September, and December are used by the stake to determine what each ward will receive for an operating budget. This process is unrelated to tithing $$ collected. |
| Subject: | I was a finance clerk |
| Date: | Dec 30 18:41 |
| Author: | Mårv Fråndsæn |
| About the 1988 or 1989 time frame. No oath of secrecy that I recall. Ya just don't talk, it would be unseemly. After all church matters are sacred and must never be questioned or the facts prostituted before the masses. I was very impressed with how much money a very average ward sucks in and sends to Salt Lake City. All the bux do add up. Given all that I find it incomprehensible that LDS Inc. can't afford a janitor or offer real aid for locals. Where in the heck does all that money go? And I served before the billion dollars mall. At the end of my tenure I stopped paying tithing (in December! not so great timing) so that I could buy a bed that my wife needed after our daughter was born. As I look back, it was a great investment, and a small payment against many mistakes of what I now understand as abandonment to conduct church duties. For some reason they no longer wanted my services after I bailed on a month of tithing. I didn't exactly feel like it was a curse to get booted and left with a smile, though silly me would have continued if they had wanted. Some time later, before we moved, I first visited a local Unitarian-Universalist congregation. It was so foreign to a BIC Mormon it was hard to understand. Kind of like Plato's allegory of leaving the cave and finding the light blinding. But I did get that U-U was a really different place in good ways. Bingo to this quote: >We would send as much as 5,000 in tithes to Salt Lake in a good week. Then watch the bishop agonize over giving someone a $100 in groceries. |
| Subject: | I'm sure this would vary from clerk to clerk, but . . . |
| Date: | Dec 30 18:51 |
| Author: | closet questioner |
| Mail Address: |
| did any of you clerks take notice of who the active non-tithe-paying ward members were (possible NOMs)? How did you view them? |
| Subject: | I AM the finance clerk |
| Date: | Dec 30 19:20 |
| Author: | 2thdoc |
| What a joke, isn't it, that I haven't paid tithing or
had a temple recommend since 2006, but I'm the one seeing the private
financial information for everyone in the ward! The bishop is in denial that
I'm inactive since I have such a picture perfect Mo-family. I go to Sac
Meeting to keep the wife happy, disappear for two hours, and show up to do
the money stuff afterwards. We are in a lower income area and send in around 400K/year and our ward budget is around 4K/year. Nearly every week the bishop comes in to the clerk's office, anxious to find out what the fast offering total is. I've been doing finance for three years and this is the first year where we are in the red on fast offering and the bishop is catching it from the stake level. More and more people are coming in for help with utility bills, rent, sometimes food. With the economy, that's only going to get worse. But it churns my gut every time, as we deposit around $10,000 every Sunday, to see how it kills the bishop to consent to pay someone's electric bill. I was ultra TBM six years ago but three years on the stake high council, seeing the real workings of the church, did me in. Now, three years of seeing the money sponge that the church is, has finished off any kind feelings I once had for TSCC. I don't know yet what my game plan is (other than never paying another cent into it) for making an exit. I lurk here often and take comfort in reading of others in similar circumstances. |
| Subject: | Wow. I'm glad you have seen the light! I hope you... |
| Date: | Dec 30 21:42 |
| Author: | FreeRose |
| and your family can eventually make a *great escape*
from the cult! Thanks for your insight. I hope you de-lurk and post more
often. :-D |
| Subject: | Bottom line: The Morg is sucking all this cash into SL and is only giving... |
| Date: | Dec 30 21:48 |
| Author: | FreeRose |
| back a tiny percent to the wards based on previous
attendance of 4 months of the year. No wonder they don't want to pay
janitors any more. Attendance is WAY DOWN for SM. Some report here only 35%
attend every week. So the wards must really be feeling the SL pinch. The Morg must have a really big *laundry* machine. heh. :-D |
| Subject: | I was privy to ward finances 8 years ago.... |
| Date: | Dec 30 20:20 |
| Author: | Eddie |
| I was in one of the most affluent wards in California.
We took in $25-50,000 a week in tithes alone. Our annual ward budget from
Salt Lake was a measly $7-8,000 a year! The bishop didn't care, as there were lots of people he could tap for cash. One year we had a lavish Christmas party. One member paid the whole tab -- over $10,000 -- on the condition that his gift be anonymous. That same member gave $65,000 to "yes on 8." Salt Lake has a license to print money. Eddie |
| Subject: | Re: All of it is send back |
| Date: | Dec 30 21:51 |
| Author: | tbrown9163 |
Yes, for quite a few years I was. Nowadays ALL of it goes back and it is double accounted for and immediately called in to SLC. There was some well known embezzlement rumors in the 70's. Tom |
| Subject: | I am the financial clerk as well! |
| Date: | Dec 30 21:59 |
| Author: | Anon |
| Mail Address: |
| I'm the financial aid clerk of a BYU ward now. I have done my calling maybe 3 times though and haven't gone back to do it in months. I don't think they have released me yet. I'm just not going to go back hahaha suckers! |
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