| Subject: | Desperate Mormons have now been reduced to this in defending their racist religion . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20, 2007 |
| Author: | Steve Benson |
| Pathetically
pointing out that, gosh, lots of other churches were racist, too. Well, so much, then, for a "latter-day living prophet of God " who, despite a supposed pipeline to heaven, just couldn't overcome societal bigotry here on earth to offer unconditional godly love and equality to black people. Mormon munchkin Ken Jennings makes this absolutely laughable "argument" in a whiny, whimpering, woe-is-me, wail of a skin pale tale: "It's true that, prior to 1978, blacks could not be ordained to the Mormon priesthood. But here, too, a more nuanced view is helpful. Joseph Smith is now known to have ordained African-American men in the 1830s and 1840s. The prohibition evolved in later decades, propped up by a series of racist folk doctrines. "Mormons were relieved when those teachings were repudiated. (It adds context but little comfort to note that other major U.S. denominations had racist and segregationist dogma on their books until the 1970s as well.)" http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/12/19/2007-12-19_politicians__pundits_please_stop_slander.html That's one hell of a defense there, Brother Jennings: The bigots made me do it. [note: Blacks were denied the Mormon priesthood prior to 1978] |
| Subject: | "propped up by a series of racist folk doctrines"? |
| Date: | Dec 20 00:35 |
| Author: | Lori at 45 |
| That makes it sound like that blacks were denied the priesthood not because it used to be official Mormon doctrine, but because the leaders were misled men! |
| Subject: | ....those teachings were repudiated." It was doctrine! Revealed to JS from God! |
| Date: | Dec 20 00:45 |
| Author: | NewLauren |
| That the blacks couldn't hold the priesthood was a mere "teaching"? Give me a break. I am getting more and more sick of the sleazy, slithering, back-pedaling lies! Ugh! |
| Subject: | Re: Desperate Mormons have now been reduced to this in defending their racist religion . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20 00:54 |
| Author: | noholdsbarred |
| My sister's boyfriend at the time (he was 18/Mormon) couldn't believe that "they/them" were given the priesthood. He thought it to be a media lie..... |
| Subject: | Direct from one of the donkeys mouths..... |
| Date: | Dec 20 01:01 |
| Author: | noholdsbarred |
| Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned ... (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477). |
| Subject: | caution is not very careful in her sources |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:18 |
| Author: | T-bone |
| Mail Address: | blahblahblah@yahoo.com |
| The wikipedia
article read like a who's who of Christian countries. I also searched for the word "atheism" and "atheist" and got no hits in the article. I searched for "athei" as a backup but still no hits. Caution, what makes you say atheism gave us eugenics? T-Bone |
| Subject: | "The homophobes made us do it!" |
| Date: | Dec 20 05:03 |
| Author: | nanoron42 |
| Ah, the slippery
slope. In twenty years, when the church is forced to accept homosexuality or
die away, will Bro. Jennings use the same line of reasoning? Even a child would see right through this one. "Well if you said you changed God's mind about other races, can't you change His mind about other sexualities?" |
| Subject: | Re: Desperate Mormons have now been reduced to this in defending their racist religion . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20 06:42 |
| Author: | No Moniker |
| So the Mormon
policy was based on "folk doctrine". Nothing about the text of the Book of
Mormon equating righteousness with skin color, no mention of racist
statements by church leaders? The "God is a bigot" argument reminds me of "gee, we don't know why God wanted all those people in the Twin Towers to die. We were just following his orders." Actually, not all churches were bigoted. The Quakers were anti-slavery way back - many Quakers ran stops on the underground railroad. |
| Subject: | "Desperate Mormons"! LOL now That's a TV show I'd like to watch |
| Date: | Dec 20 06:51 |
| Author: | charles, buddhist punk |
| Hmmm, what genre? It can't be a "reality" show, the church is false. How about a docu-drama? Sitcom? Action-adventure? Horror-suspense? |
| Subject: | Re: Desperate Mormons have now been reduced to this in defending their racist religion . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20 07:20 |
| Author: | No Moniker |
| Thank you Ken
Jennings for providing the opportunity to set the world straight on Mormon
doctrine (see comments posted on this article.) How inspired of Ballard to urge Mormons to get out on the internet to spread the "truth" about Mormonism! Of course, not all truth is useful! |
| Subject: | My whole reply - posted as ma4t on NY Daily News |
| Date: | Dec 20 07:27 |
| Author: | T-bone |
| I wanted to post
my whole reply here because the News only allows short posts. Before the internet, the LDS church could control what the world knew about it. Anybody who speaks out or asks too many questions is quickly disgraced, excommunicated, and labeled a nut. Do a search on the September Six for a good example of what happens when you ask too many questions. What do we know about Mormons? Only what they have told us. There are people who will recite the official line, "Mormons have strong family values and they are honest, hard-working people." This message comes from two sources: 1) Those with a Mormon co-worker. If you ask how they know Mormons are such wonderful people, they will answer, "Well, that's what my Mormon friend told me." 2) Those who pretend not to be Mormons, but want to tell the world about how wonderful the LDS church is. The internet is full of these people and they quickly give themselves away by using such language as "the church" instead of "the LDS church." What the world must know is that Mormonism has very serious problems at its core. When we learn that blacks were denied the priesthood, we must understand that the priesthood in Mormonism is something very different. Every worthy boy can receive at age 12. This means that a 12 year old white boy was more worthy than a middle-aged black man. We must understand that blacks were thought to be less valiant in the war in heaven between Satan and the followers of God. They sat on the fence, and were thus cursed with black skin. At 18, a worthy boy can be ordained an Elder, visit the temple, get married in the temple, and go on a mission. He can bless his newborn children (give them a name and a blessing - similar to christening), he can minister to his family and others by the laying on of hands, he can ordain others to the priesthood and church callings, and he can participate in the ordinances that are required to achieve the highest level of heaven, such as being sealed to his wife and children in the temple. All of this is what was denied to blacks. White members were called upon to bless newborn black babies. Black members had to be married by white members who held the priesthood. It was humiliating and degrading to black members. It was only the US government threatened the LDS church that church leaders decided to give blacks the priesthood. They still have not recanted any of the teachings that led to the ban. Mormons will try to obscure the reasons for denying the priesthood, but those who study the history know that church leaders were very clear as to their reasons and their intent. |
| Subject: | Someone need to tell Brother J. that churches with divine guidance do not |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:06 |
| Author: | anon |
| turn their back
on it in favor of "folk doctrine". soooooo..... That means the Mormon church had no divine revelation. God strikes down one guy who reaches out to steady the Ark of the Covenant so *it doesn't fall on the ground*, but he can't get off his lazy butt and correct the "folk doctrine" of racism in the Mo church?! Something is wrong with that picture. |
| Subject: | I pointed this pattern out a couple of weeks ago |
| Date: | Dec 20 09:45 |
| Author: | Blank |
| Mormons have
been all over the conservative political sites for weeks and months
defending their religion. We even had at least one come here. Two things
that are pointed out by Mormons is that (1) other churches were doing it and
(2) they like to point to Romney's father's marching in civil rights
marches. [Note: This was an exaggerated claim by Romney. His father
never marched with King] I have also seen Mormons claiming how blacks
would go to Mormon churches to avoid persecution. I even saw one lady go on
about how her mother started a girl scout troop with blacks in it and was
persecuted for it (funny why didn't they start a boy scout troop? Oh yeah no
blacks allowed to be leaders). I have seen a few rumblings here and there about Romney's evasion on Meet the Press about whether it was immoral for blacks to be excluded the way they were. Most still seem oblivious to the ongoing nature of the problem. It is not a problem that will go away and if Romney gets the nomination it is sure to come up again. I have said many times before and continue to maintain that focusing on the racist doctrines of Mormonism is the best way to get people's attention. |
| Subject: | What Other "Major Denominations" in the US Practiced |
| Date: | Dec 20 10:31 |
| Author: | WestBerkeleyFlats |
| segregation until 1978? None that I know of. (And no, I don't consider Bob Jones University to be a major denomination, although the views of its founder were probably on par with those of the namesake of Brigham Young University). |
| Subject: | Since when were LDS scriptures and conference addresses folklore?! |
| Date: | Dec 20 10:57 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Sorry, Jennings,
but Mormon racism is not folklore. It's scripture canon and divine teaching
from the Prophets of the Lord. Take a look: Moses 7:22 "And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." Moses 7:8 says that Enoch converted many people, but not the descendants of Cain, because "there was a blackness that came upon the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people". Moses 7:22-23 tells of Enoch’s efforts to make a city so perfect was established that it was taken up into heaven. This perfect city contained “a mixture of all the seed of Adam” except the seed of Cain, "for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them". According to Mormon doctrine, the black races descended from Ham. Ham’s wife – Egyptus - was a descendant of Cain (Abraham 1:21-22), and “thus from Ham sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land” (Abraham 1:24). The curse refers to denial of the Priesthood (Abraham 1:26-27). Also, according to the Book of Mormon, after the Lamanites had dwindled in unbelief, they became "dark and loathsome and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations” (1 Nephi 12:23). They were “cut off from [God’s] presence”, and God cursed them with a “skin of blackness” (2 Nephi 5:20-21). Nephi says that the dark skin made it so that the Lamanites were no longer “enticing” to the Nephites who were “white and delightsome” (2 Nephi 5:21). And in 3 Nephi 2:14-15, we read about how when some of the Lamanites repented, they were "numbered among the Nephites; and their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites. And their young men and their daughters were exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites". "It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain and which his posterity inherited was the black skin. The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black." - The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 107 “Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin..." - The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291 “Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, their intelligence stunted, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” - Official Church Publication, The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157 "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race." - The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101 "There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." - The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67 “The descendants of Ham, besides a back skin which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a black heart, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the abolitionists are trying to make void the curse of God, but it will require more than man possesses to counteract the decree of Eternal wisdom.” - The Apostle (later The Prophet) John Taylor, official Church Publication "Times and Seasons", Vol. 6, page 857 “Shall I tell you the Law of God in regard to the African Race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the Law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” - The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110 “And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representative upon the earth as well as God;...” - The Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304 And there's more, many more Mormon prophetic teachings on this subject: http://www.realmormonhistory.com/god&skin.htm This isn't just some isolated quote from one or two church leaders. The racist teaching from the Mormon priesthood is prolific and consistent over time. If God didn't agree with His "true" prophets teaching these things in His church, then why did they continue over generations? Why is it that ordained church leaders don't come out and denounce these church teachings? There's a big difference between folklore and Mormon scripture. When the president and prophet of the church stands at the pulpit and teaches the laws of God, that isn't folklore. Smart Mormons know Jennings is lying. He is going against the teachings of church leaders and the scriptures. He should be ex-communicated for apostasy, along with the rest of those excuse-makers that wont stand by the teachings of The Restored True Church. |
| Subject: | The PGP References Are Scripture and the Official |
| Date: | Dec 20 11:17 |
| Author: | WestBerkeleyFlats |
| statements from
the First Presidency of 1949 and 1969 were doctrine. The statements of church leaders in church publications and General Conference addresses were generally considered to be doctrine, although I can be incredibly generous and consider them to have been personal opinions of church leaders. |
| Subject: | I was taught at BYU |
| Date: | Dec 20 13:42 |
| Author: | yogi |
| Mail Address: |
| in 1971 that General Conference talks were scripture, and considered to be doctrine. |
| Subject: | Didn't Moses smash a tablet of laws that his people were not ready for? |
| Date: | Dec 20 11:11 |
| Author: | Duder |
| I don't think it
strains the brain too much to buy the idea that God (if there is a God and
He's interested in dealing with folks in the world) might adapt certain
principles to the context of His followers. Why else would a church need a prophet? When y'all were members of the church, were you racist? |
| Subject: | I, too, have wondered what good a "living prophet" is if he . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20 11:34 |
| Author: | robertb |
| doesn't speak out about social injustices. The Mormon Church has pretty much been behind the curve on social issues. Hinckley has been reduced to speaking on such profound issues as earrings, piercings, and tattoos. |
| Subject: | I agree |
| Date: | Dec 20 11:41 |
| Author: | Duder |
| Mail Address: |
| I first started
having big problems with the church when we were being organized to "defend
traditional marriage." I'm not sure how a church with such radical beginnings turned into the most conservative organization alive, but there you go. I'm just saying, I think the argument can be made that God's commandments are meant for the followers' ears - and those ears had better not have multiple piercings. |
| Subject: | What? - language |
| Date: | Dec 20 13:32 |
| Author: | Allegory |
| "The prohibition
evolved in later decades, propped up by a series of racist folk doctrines. " Mormons were relieved? WTF? They were relieve that doctrine the knew was WRONG was finally corrected? What does that tell us about the sad, sad shape of Mormons? ...It implies NOBODY subscribing to LDS doctrine believed this doctrine was right, yet they followed it anyway. "nuanced view?" I have a feeling old Jo ordained just about anybody he thought had a dime... |
| Subject: | Folklore? |
| Date: | Dec 20 16:47 |
| Author: | Steve |
| The First
Presidency Statement on the Negro Question August 17, 1949 The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to." President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: "The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have." The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes. |
| Subject: | Ken Jennings op-ed in NY Daily Times "...please stop slandering my Mormon faith" |
| Date: | Dec 20 00:01 |
| Author: | Chuckles (never mo & long-time reader) |
| Have any of you seen this op-ed article from Ken
Jennings?(he of Jeopardy fame.) Politicians & pundits, please stop slandering my Mormon faith http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/12/19/2007-12-19_politicians__pundits_please_stop_slander.html Here's the quote that caught my eye: "Early accounts show the church's founders, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, tearfully resisted "plural marriage."" Really? JS & BY tearfully resisted polygamy? Where's his documentation for that one? Does this sound familiar to any of you who know your Mormon history inside and out? Is he just making this up or repeating something he was taught? |
| Subject: | "Tearfully resisted?" That's a typo. He meant to say "Cheerfully persisted." nt |
| Subject: | The sad thing is the ones that were really "tearfully resisting" |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:08 |
| Author: | JCH |
| were the young innocent girls getting ravaged by two horny old men. |
| Subject: | JS Removed His Garments Only To Avoid Charges of Treason . . . |
| Date: | Dec 20 09:09 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| They would be evidence that he was a member of a
secret religious sect--which he was--that recognized an authority other than
the United States government. And it wasn't for several months before his death that he quit wearing them, but only after he fled Nauvoo following the destruction of the Expositor and was persuaded to return and face the charges against him. (source: Samuel W. Taylor: "Nightfall at Nauvoo") His removal of his g's is evidence he knew, on some level (trying to fathom the processes of a personality-disordered narcissist like JS is treacherous going) that the whole religion was a scam and the Nauvoo Legion would afford him protection better than his underwear. The order to mobilize the Legion never reached them, however. |
| Subject: | Mormonism for $1000 |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:04 |
| Author: | AxelDC |
| If they had a Jeopardy question on non-biased Mormon
history, Jennings, like every other TBM, would fail miserably and cry that
it was unfair. Even after being shown proof of the facts, they would still
say it was Mormon-bashing. Amazing how someone so knowledgeable about so many facts can be so ignorant of something so essential to his life. |
| Subject: | Jennings is intelligent enough to know the difference between slander... |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:12 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| ...and saying true things you just don't want spoken. |
| Subject: | The devil made me...no, that's not it...god made me do it... |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:22 |
| Author: | Joe Smith, Jr. |
| yes, that's the ticket! I pleaded and I begged and I
cried! I sez to god, "Good lord, gawd, puh-leeeze don't command me to sleep
with teen-age girls and other men's wives! Puh-leeeze!" But god was firm an' he made me do it, no matter if I cried a river of bitter anguish! |
| Subject: | Poor, poor, poor Mormons...... |
| Date: | Dec 20 08:44 |
| Author: | transplanted |
| Now that the world is examining the Mormon history and
seeing that the "mainstreaming" thing is really just an attempt to cover
it's own history...things are getting bad. I guess you can't just pretend it never happened. However, the insane mental gymnastics ("tearfully resisted"????) used by TBM's to deal with the historical issues of the church has got to wear them down eventually! |
| Subject: | They used to say, "What do you know about the Mormon church?..." |
| Date: | Dec 20 09:13 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| "...Would you like to know more?" Now it's "What do you know about the Mormon church? Oh yeah? Well that's just a lie!" |
| Subject: | It's ironic.... |
| Date: | Dec 20 09:19 |
| Author: | transplanted |
| For years, the church has wished for more publicity
and a higher public profile nationally.... Be careful what you ask for! |
| Subject: | "Early accounts" indeed |
| Date: | Dec 20 09:20 |
| Author: | cludgie |
| Referring to "early accounts" of this thing and that thing is all part of our dodgy theology based on prevarication. |
| Subject: | Remember the Black Sheriff in Blazing Saddles? |
| Date: | Dec 20 10:51 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| That's basically what Joseph Smith did to some of his
female victims. Smith repeatedly used the "God will kill me if you don't do this" line. And it worked on some: "19 year-old Zina remained conflicted until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose "his position and his life." Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced." (In Sacred Loneliness, page 80-81) - http://www.i4m.com/think/history/angel_sword.htm It's called spiritual blackmail. Jennings just doesn't get it. |
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |