| Subject: | Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06, 2007 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| There's an interesting article in the NY Times about
perfectionism and how it can lead to other mental disorders. Here's an
excerpt: The new research focuses on a familiar type, perfectionists, who panic or blow a fuse when things don’t turn out just so. The findings not only confirm that such purists are often at risk for mental distress — as Freud, Alfred Adler and countless exasperated parents have long predicted — but also suggest that perfectionism is a valuable lens through which to understand a variety of seemingly unrelated mental difficulties, from depression to compulsive behavior to addiction. Some researchers divide perfectionists into three types, based on answers to standardized questionnaires: Self-oriented strivers who struggle to live up to their high standards and appear to be at risk of self-critical depression; outwardly focused zealots who expect perfection from others, often ruining relationships; and those desperate to live up to an ideal they’re convinced others expect of them, a risk factor for suicidal thinking and eating disorders. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/health... Depression... compulsive behavior... addiction... ruined relationships... I think we know Mormon perfectionism can make people depressed, but could it also be that obsessive behavior like porn addiction is also a byproduct of perfectionism? And we see over and over how a Mormon spouse's perfectionism destroys marriages when the mate doesn't measure up. I left the LDS church because, among other things, I realized it was bad for my mental health. If I had stayed I would have become a very sick, depressed man. I might have killed myself. |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06 09:43 |
| Author: | Some Lady |
| Stray Mutt wrote: "I left the LDS church because,
among other things, I realized it was bad for my mental health. If I had
stayed I would have become a very sick, depressed man. I might have killed
myself." * * * * * That realization was the driving force behind my exit. For years I sensed that it was my involvement in the church that was the main cause of most of my mental and emotional stress . . . and that it was VERY BAD for my health on many levels. Finally, after a lengthy process that culminated in mentally and emotionally divorcing the church, I found RfM and other sources of 'enlightenment' re. the historical and doctrinal issues . . . And I never looked back. |
| Subject: | Word. |
| Date: | Dec 06 11:44 |
| Author: | Metatron |
| I remember when I was at BYU, I was in counseling at
a clinic on the edge of campus. One day, while walking through the foyer on
my way out, I overheard a couple of counselors they needed to "gear up" and
"get the clinic ready" because General conference was coming up. I suspect the compulsion to be perfect is stronger at Conference time. Like you, Mutt, I would have been a sick man if I had stayed in. Mormonism was not good for my emotional or mental health. |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06 14:28 |
| Author: | queen bee |
| I ended up becoming a counselor myself because therapy was so helpful for me in identifying the elements of Mormonism that made it mentally unhealthy. At one point I remember trying to communicate the problems of being raised Mormon to my own therapist--using a sort of reflective/Rogerian response he said: "Sounds like you object to Mormonism not only because you don't agree with the beliefs but because it is mentally unhealthy." I believe that the personal test for people in deciding about whether the relationships in their life are healthy or not is to simply set personal boundaries and then see what happens. If merely establishing personal boundaries ends up getting you demonized, rejected, or shamed, then I think it then becomes pretty clear that you are in a toxic relationship. I tell clients who are struggling with whether or not to stay in relationships or not that the decision will become clear as they become increasingly healthy. I think that applies to institutional relationships as well. Mormon practices include shaming you if you say no to a calling, choose not to go on a mission, and so on. |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 08 00:16 |
| Author: | Hap E. Heretic |
| I liked what you said about setting boundaries,
becoming healthy, and then seeing what happened to your relationships. I did just that, and I saw that, the healthier I became, the more burdensome certain unhealthy relationships in my life became in contrast. I ended my relationship with the church, and became more mentally healthy. I realized my "best friend" was toxic when I became less toxic myself, and that relationship ended, too (and NEEDED to). I took more initiative in my work, and excelled. My life is far from perfect, but in casting off the old, I've become much more satisfied and considerably healthier and happier. |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 08 05:02 |
| Author: | Whaaaa? |
| What? Your life is "far from perfect"? Ooops! You just slipped back into Mormon thinking, with that one! With that statement, you (consciously, or subconscious) are admitting to yourself that "perfection" is somehow OUT THERE! (To use a phrase from the old X-Files) To YOU, 'far from perfect' may mean that you screw up; that you KNOW that you screw up; and, that you have work to do, in those areas that you feel poorly about yourself, through screwing up [i.e, through not measuring up, to your own standards]. I don't know! Still sounds like the X-Files, to me. |
| Subject: | Re: I left for the same reason... |
| Date: | Dec 06 17:34 |
| Author: | Hap E. Heretic |
| After enduring crippling depression and OCD, I just
couldn't take the perfectionistic mindset anymore. In order for me to have any normalcy in my life, I had to let go of all the expectations of the church, and of the pathological need to be perfect, pure, obedient, etc. I'm sure many people don't take it as literally as I did, or have a genetic predisposition for mental illness also. But if you're vulnerable in those areas, the church can become deadly to your peace of mind, your self esteem, and possibly, your life. For the sake of my sanity, and my life, I had to walk away. I've never felt so at peace. |
| Subject: | What a refreshing post. |
| Date: | Dec 06 17:57 |
| Author: | tbm_no_more |
| It's nice to see that others have had similar
struggles. I have had problems with OCD ever since I was 4 years old. When I became highly active in the Church at age 17 the problems only intensified. I couldn't exceed the speed limit by even one mile an hour because the D&C said to obey the law of the land. I said hundreds of silent prayers a day asking for forgiveness for thoughts or minor imperfections. I was miserable, but the structure of the Church gave me something to latch onto. Ultimately, coming home early from a mission for medical reasons, I couldn't believe that I was giving so much, I was obsessing so much and my mind was hurting so much and yet all the Church seemed to expect of me was MORE, MORE, MORE. The Church is a threat to the mental health of millions of people. And yet people deeply rooted inside still talk about it in terms of being "strong." Some people are just "too weak" to finish a mission. Well, you know something? I've got a brain, and maybe it's fucked up a little bit, but it's my brain and you have no right to call it weaker than yours. |
| Subject: | I believed and I really tried; Now I am a total mess |
| Date: | Dec 06 18:33 |
| Author: | halfbreed |
| mentally and emotionally. I am held together by Duct tape and bubblegum. Years and years wasted now I am trying to reprogram myself. |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06 18:35 |
| Author: | Fedelm |
| This is why I left, as I was genetically predisposed to depression, which was triggered by the Morg's insistence on perfection. I do believe that if I didn't leave the cult, there's a good chance I wouldn't be here today as I was suicidal at one point. Since leaving 6 years ago, I haven't had any depression. |
| Subject: | Cults and becoming perfect... |
| Date: | Dec 06 19:39 |
| Author: | Eric K |
| This is perhaps the most damaging aspect of Mormonism
- striving to become perfect. It is also the principle doctrine, in my
opinion, that defines a cult. Any group or organization that claims
perfectionism as a goal, is a cult. A claim of absolute truth is also part
of this ridiculous mindset. The striving toward becoming perfect, in lieu of simply becoming better and accepting our individual human frailties, has destroyed millions of lives. |
| Subject: | My desire for perfection resulted in copious amounts of prescription drugs. . . |
| Date: | Dec 06 20:06 |
| Author: | NorthIdahoExMo |
| In college, I tried so hard to be perfect I ended up
with incredibly axietey and severe OCD - so bad I almost had to drop out -
and an almost bottomless prescription of Zoloft with a sprinkling of Xanax
and Ambien for panic attacks. Since leaving the morg, I haven't taken a single antidepressant . . . although there were definitely days that I wanted to. . . |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06 20:25 |
| Author: | forestpal |
| So true, Stray Mutt! I used to blame my TBM parents for their perfectionism, and I knew it discouraged me, but when I moved away from my parents, and into yet another strict TBM "ward family" that perfectionism was still there. I left the church because I couldn't stand being discouraged, sad, and critical of my self. I had very low self-esteem, mild depression, and zero confidence in myself--and I needed to be strong enough to raise and support three children on my own. I was desperate, and I knew from experience that the church brought me down on Sunday, so much that I could barely function until Wednesday. Life was tough, but I realized that I liked everything I was doing, except church. I believe the posters who say they are cured, because it happened to me. The week I quit the church, I began getting better--without drugs. I knew I'd be happier on Sundays, but did not suspect how badly I had been brainwashed and stripped of my dignity and autonomy by that cult, until I began getting better and better. Some Lady posted real advice, which describes what actually happened to me: >>"I believe that the personal test for people in deciding about whether the relationships in their life are healthy or not is to simply set personal boundaries and then see what happens. If merely establishing personal boundaries ends up getting you demonized, rejected, or shamed, then I think it then becomes pretty clear that you are in a toxic relationship. I tell clients who are struggling with whether or not to stay in relationships or not that the decision will become clear as they become increasingly healthy.<< Absolutely! |
| Subject: | Re: Be ye therefore perfect -- and mentally ill |
| Date: | Dec 06 20:31 |
| Author: | martha |
| It's hard to type and cry at the same time, but thank
you, thank you, thank you so much to everyone for this post. I thought it
was just me. I thought I was the only one who associated these symptoms with
the church. I thought it was just my inability to cope with life. I, too,
have been seeing a therapist for the sometimes untouchable depression and
anxiety attacks, but for some reason none of this really clicked until I
started reading these posts.
|
| Subject: | You ain't kidding - Repost of my treatise on the poison of perfectionism |
| Date: | Dec 06 21:58 |
| Author: | Lucyfer |
| To me this is the absolute WORST thing about Mormon
teaching. Here is a post I made about it some months ago. ___________ “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.) When I first was learning about Mormonism I ran headlong into the old striving for perfection thing. I asked DH, “Surely they don’t REALLY mean perfection – right, honey? They mean be as good as you can be, don’t they? I mean, perfection as a goal is just sort of off the charts, ya know??” But you all DO know. DH looked me in the eyes and in all seriousness assured me that perfection was in fact what Mormons were told to work toward – in this life and in the next... Whoa – perfection. What a concept. So, to Mormons, the ultimate goal of human achievement on this earth and for eternity in the spirit world is pure nadulterated “perfection”. Not just goodness, not just living up to your potential, not just being the best you can be, but absolute and nothing less that PERFECTION! Just to make sure I was not being unreasonable I looked the blasted word up. Webster’s says that perfection means 1. freedom from fault or defect – flawlessness; 2. the quality or state of being saintly; 3. an exemplification of supreme excellence – an unsurpassable degree of accuracy or excellence. Of course, the problem with having PERFECTION as a goal is that by definition it is unattainable. Nothing in the physical universe is “perfect” – everything in nature has flaws or imperfections. Perfection is an abstract concept like infinity. It has no practical meaning – it cannot be conceptualized in terms of real human experience. It is not REAL and therefore cannot be realized. What the hell did it mean to try to be perfect in a Mormon context? A quick Google and here is a small sampling of what I found: “But our Father in Heaven and our Savior expect us to begin the process of perfection while we are on the earth and to make a sincere daily effort toward becoming perfect. There clearly are some things in which you can be perfect. The payment of tithing and the behavioral aspects of the law of chastity are examples. There are other things, however, that most of us will need to work on throughout our entire lives and yet not reach the perfection that is eventually promised until the eternities if we are true and faithful. Matters such as having absolute faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, a complete understanding of the scriptures, always controlling our thoughts and our tongues are all issues that require persistence and patience." This nonsense comes from a devotional given on March 19, 2002, at the Provo Missionary Training Center by a Cecil O. Samuelson, “What Does It Mean to Be Perfect?” New Era, Jan. 2006, 10. I won’t bore you with the rest of this silly talk/article. He degenerates into a horrible comparison of trying to be perfect a la Mormonism and how terrible “perfectionism” is because it is “self-centered” and unhealthy. Uh...hello, Cecil – Mormon doctrine is unhealthy! As if that “gem” were not enough – how about this doozie by Russell M. Nelson, “Perfection Pending,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, “When comparing one’s personal performance with the supreme standard of the Lord’s expectation, the reality of imperfection can at times be depressing. My heart goes out to conscientious Saints who, because of their shortcomings, allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life." “We all need to remember: men are that they might have joy—not guilt trips! We also need to remember that the Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to obey. But sometimes we fail to comprehend them fully.” I LOVE the way old Russ says not to feel badly that you are not perfect – not to be guilty, then slaps you in the face by “reminding” you that the Lard never commands something which is not possible. Jeez – you loser! If you would only try harder, you could be LOTS more perfect!!! I won’t even try to summarize the horrific (but plentiful) poetry I read in the New Era on the topic of perfection and striving to be perfect. Most of this bilge was penned by tortured young women who were Prozac cases waiting to happen. It was painful to read this stuff on about 10 different levels – Zounds! Let’s just call a spade a spade here. When perfection is the goal, the end result is and always will be failure. Holding the myth of perfection up as the standard of thought and action means that one can NEVER measure up – EVER! Nothing one does will ever be good enough, no matter what it is. Every little mistake, every minute oversight, every perceived misstep weighs heavily on the mind of a person who demands perfection of themselves and who feels that others expect it of him/her. The guilt of being consistently imperfect leads to an incessant cycle of confession, repentance, and misery. While the intent of this belief may be to motivate people to reach higher and achieve more, it also creates feelings of bitter disappointment and self-recrimination. Over time as the expectation of perfection is repeatedly reinforced these feelings of inadequacy become deeply entrenched and a pattern of self-loathing emerges. Striving for perfection is a form of poison. It is strychnine for self-esteem. Amazing how many of you survived, really. |
| Subject: | Re: You ain't kidding - Repost of my treatise on the poison of perfectionism |
| Date: | Dec 08 01:47 |
| Author: | Rob |
| Lucyfer wrote: "Let’s just call a spade a spade here. When perfection is the goal, the end result is and always will be failure. Holding the myth of perfection up as the standard of thought and action means that one can NEVER measure up – EVER! Nothing one does will ever be good enough, no matter what it is. Every little mistake, every minute oversight, every perceived misstep weighs heavily on the mind of a person who demands perfection of themselves and who feels that others expect it of him/her." Russell M. Nelson: “We all need to remember: men are that they might have joy—not guilt trips! We also need to remember that the Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to obey…” This idea—that "the Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to obey" is a total catch-22. It's this kind of teaching (reiterated from 1 Nephi 3:7) that causes "guilt-trips", depression, OCD, addictions, etc. I mean, the logic is ludicrous really—“perfection” of course is unattainable and unrealistic—it’s impossible. But we're given this crap that there are no commandments that are IMPOSSIBLE to obey?!! Talk about setting people up for depression, hopelessness, and self-hate... It's a no win situation—the only result is failure. Nelson: "My heart goes out to conscientious Saints who, because of their shortcomings, allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life." “We all need to remember: men are that they might have joy—not guilt trips! We also need to remember that the Lord gives no commandments that are impossible to obey. But sometimes we fail to comprehend them fully.” Excuse me... but what an asshole! |
| Subject: | You ready for this...(1 swear) |
| Date: | Dec 08 02:41 |
| Author: | anonymous NOM |
| I was suicidal the final year of myself being in the
church mentally (I wasn't attending much, but believed). I never made the
connection between my depression and LDS inc. I didn't realize the reason I
now feel better was because the church isn't true until a while after I was
out. As sad and depressing as it is at first to exit and find out the truth,
a few months out, I feel better than ever. When I was in, I was on prozac,
had OCD up the wazoo, and couldn't sleep, couldn't think straight, and
couldn't get from the beginning of the day to the end without dusturbing
images I'd mentally collected plaguing me with guilt and disgust
compulsively clouding my mind. I felt worthless and was truly on the brink
of a very violent break (suicide). I found out about the church being a lie
and it got really bad. Then it got better, and better, and better. Right
now, I pretty much feel fine. No prozac, clear mind, not really bothered by
OCD, and I actually feel like I have value and worth. I am actually more
emotional (spiritual) I feel art and music and scenery more than I did
before. The world is much more beautiful when you can contemplate it open
ended and marvel and the possibilities of evolution, infinity, and who did
or didn't make it all happen without someone giving you a half baked, tacky,
kitschy answer that involves going to a white cinder block building with
carpet every sunday and hinges on nitpicking little "sins" that you have
supposedly committed. Also, now I actually cry when things strike me as
beautiful, I never did that before. I feel free, there are lots of
possibilities ahead, and most of all, I don't feel like everyone else is
better than me. I actually consider myself a pretty great person. I never
did that before... When the Hinck saw that Utah leads the nation in Prozac, he should have admitted this BS all isn't working, it's not making anybody a better husband and father (as that's what he admitted it's for if by some chance it's false), and it's time to end it. Just announce at conference that everyone's getting their money back, and go be good and be yourselves. That's it. Let's finish up with LDS, and put these horrible past 175 years behind us. It would do all "13" million of us a whole lot of good... My biggest stress now is my family and friends who are in and suffering... strange turnaround... |
| Subject: | Yes, yes and yes. |
| Date: | Dec 08 07:11 |
| Author: | brefots |
| For those of us, like myself, who already have
tendencies towards perfectionism, mormonism is poison for the soul.
Perfectionism, ironically, takes away the joy of learning and improving and
is a set-up for constant disappointment. Now I try to set the goal much
lower, and the sense of achievement is just as sweet but much more
attainable. Still I'm pretty petty when it comes to certain things. I loved the last line in the article: If we cannot tolerate our worst once in a while, how true to ourselves can we really be? |
Related topic: 499. Utah Leads the Nation in Depression
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |