Subject:

Subject:	The most chilling part of "The Mormons – PBS Documentary" to me
Date:	May 01, 2007
Author:	Stray Mutt

In the previews for the second episode, Oaks [Mormon Apostle] said, with a sort of cold grin, that one must never criticize church leaders, even when the criticism is true. I think that reveals the true nature of the LDS church. That statement will appeal to those who believe in authoritarian structures, but it's likely to raise the hackles of everyone else.

Subject:	Re: The most chilling part of "The Mormons" to me
Date:	May 01 07:30
Author:	wisedup
Mail Address:

That is one scary statement. Lemmings. Jump off of the cliff - no questions asked. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Subject:	That indeed was chilling
Date:	May 01 08:48
Author:	griot

At least we are getting some of this crap out in the open. I wonder how outsiders will react to that? He is not saying anything I did not hear at BYU.

This is getting good. I wonder what the fallout of all of this will be?

Subject:	Oaks has made that statement before.....
Date:	May 01 08:55
Author:	Randy J.

Here are some quotes from Decon's website:

http://www.i4m.com/think/intro/mormon_leaders.htm

The problem with Oaks' comments is that other church apologists have tried repeatedly to tell the world that church leaders aren't infallible (as opposed to the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility.) But if, as Oaks says, it's improper to criticize the prophet *even if the criticism is justified*, he is effectively admitting that the prophet is to be treated as though he is infallible. Oaks expects rank-and-file church members to treat the prophet the same way that oppressive dictatorial regimes (such as the USSR) mandated that their citizens regarded government leaders.

I wonder if that's ever crossed the mind of the highly intelligent former state supreme court justice Oaks.

Subject:	Going along with the Mohammed theme that the show started
Date:	May 01 08:59
Author:	Carrie Oakie

Oaks, like a Muslim Imam...
You may not say ANYTHING against us.

OR ELSE.

Subject:	Here's some fun....type in "criticize" at the link
Date:	May 01 10:16
Author:	JW the Inquizzinator

Here's one of the returns on the search word "criticize" at http://search.ldslibrary.com/

Elder Angel Abrea, The “Little Things” and Eternal Life, Ensign (CR), November 1981

"Another example: do we realize that every time that we sustain the leaders of the Church we are duty bound to support them? The raised hand becomes a symbol of the covenant we make to support them. Each time we criticize or condemn them, we become literally covenant breakers. President Joseph F. Smith made the following comment about this problem:

“The moment a man says he will not submit to the legally constituted authority of the Church, whether it be the teachers, the bishopric, the high council, his quorum, or the First Presidency, and in his heart confirms it and carries it out, that moment he cuts himself off from the privileges and blessings of the Priesthood and Church, and severs himself from the people of God, for he ignores the authority that the Lord has instituted in his Church.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939, p. 45.)"

Subject:	Re: Here's some fun....type in "criticize" at the link
Date:	May 01 10:20
Author:	Randy J.

>do we realize that every time that we sustain the leaders of the Church we are duty bound to support them? The raised hand becomes a symbol of the covenant we make to support them.

>Each time we criticize or condemn them, we become literally covenant breakers.

Indeed. It's that principle of unquestioning obedience to leaders that allowed the MMM to happen. [Mountain Meadow’s Massacre] See https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon472.htm for more on this tragedy.

Subject:	tried the same thing at lds.org
Date:	May 02 10:04
Author:	T-bone

Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History
This is what happens after somebody criticizes "the" church.
>> William E. McLellin later left the Church. Joseph Smith said that people who criticize the Church and its leaders will eventually apostatize if they do not repent (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156–57).

http://www.lds.org/..menuitem..

That's just one example.

Look through the list of articles that talk about how bad it is to criticize. Criticism has dire consequences, like the power of Satan overcoming people.
>> The penalty if we do use our priesthood unrighteously is that the heavens withdraw themselves and the Spirit of the Lord is grieved. When we lose the Spirit, our priesthood authority is taken from us and we are left to ourselves “to kick against the pricks,” when we are being irritated by the admonitions and instructions of our leaders. Then we begin to persecute the saints, which means criticize, and finally to fight against God, and the powers of darkness overtake us if we do not repent and turn from that evil course. [See D&C 121:37–38.]

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3

T-Bone

Subject:

Ya, that remark made the hair on my neck stand up. God, and to think I was a missionary trying to suck people IN to that cult. Ick! nt

Subject:	"Chilling" is the best word to describe that
Date:	May 01 10:47
Author:	NoLihoma

That pretty much describes exactly how I felt. It really sent chills up my spine to listen to that as an outsider now. All I could think is "Oooooh Myyyyyyy Gaaaaawwwd! Don't EVER tell me it's not a cult again!"

Subject:	I agree with you, SM
Date:	May 01 11:25
Author:	Puli

I thought the program was rather soft on several issues like Smith marrying other men's wives. At least the issue was mentioned.

Oaks' comment, however, is very telling for anyone who thinks about it much. Who wouldn't want the freedom to do whatever they want and then condemn anyone who criticizes them as sinful - even or especially when the criticism is valid? It should also undermine the credibility of the support the church enjoys from its members for anyone who ponders the ramification of his statement.

Subject:

Yup! Dallin Oaks is Mormon's Himmler n/t

Subject:	Agreed
Date:	May 01 11:44
Author:	Southern Man

I told my TBM wife that his remark would probably sound totalitarian to a nonmember, and would probably draw a lot of criticism--which it should. The rule against criticizing church leaders--even if the criticism is true--is one of the church's most cult-like characteristics and sounds like something that would have come out of the 1930's Soviet Union. So it's fitting that his remarks will be aired on May 1st, the international Communist holiday.
I have a tee shirt with a hammer and sickle on it. I think I'll wear it when I watch the show tonight.

Subject:	Re: The most chilling part of "The Mormons" to me
Date:	May 01 15:58
Author:	Crathes

Absolute power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. BUT, it also absolutely ROCKS! They don't do it for money or anything else. The lower level lemmings have to tolerate the bullsh!t from those above, but then get to dump on those below. It's all inspired, and to question it to show a lack of faith.

When I first read 1984 many years ago, I wondered how could people be so gullible. Now I realize that I was one of those. It's painful to wake up.

Subject:	That attitude leads to tacit acceptance of abuse (adult)
Date:	May 02 09:56
Author:	T-bone

Never criticize a leader, even if he's wrong.

So the bishop asks your daughter about masturbation, if a boy has ever had his hand down her pants, or if she's ever touched a penis.

But don't criticize, even if the bishop is wrong.

And the bishop asks your son if he masturbates, how, and how often. Then he asks for details about everything he's ever done with a girl.

But don't criticize, even if the bishop is wrong.

That just screams cult!

T-Bone

Subject:	Truth will prevail!
Date:	May 03 16:48
Author:	Kentucky Crimson

This is the PRIMARY reason I gave last year for leaving TSCC [This so called church]: Truth and honesty take a back seat to unquestioned loyalty and obedience to church leaders. As the English saying goes, "Truth will prevail!"

I'm SO glad I'm outtathere! It's sad yet funny to see some of my great TSCC friends get lathered over this special.

Here comes the Mormon reformation, as other posters have written here on RfM board.

Subject:	What on Earth possessed Oaks to say that?
Date:	May 05 03:22
Author:	notamomo

On national television in a documentary he hopes will make the Church look good? Maybe he forgot he wasn't preaching to the choir this time.

Subject:	Superb presentation of material. Whitney asks, "How did the Mormons make this rapid transformation?"
Date:	May 05 06:50
Author:	MarkJ

And she very subtly lays out the answer: Because they were told to change.

There is no doctrine of the church that subordinates the prerogatives of leadership. If the leaders say, be polygamous, Mormons grab women. If the leaders say, shoot this wagontrain of people, triggers are pulled. If the leaders say, stop polygamy, monogamy becomes an obsession. The church has no fixed doctrine other than to obey.

This is what is truly unsettling about the church, and why a Mormon should never become President.

The documentary did this, as another poster said, like a stiletto slipped in between the ribs so smoothly that it isn't even felt.

Subject:	Well said
Date:	May 05 10:25
Author:	T-bone

The church has no fixed doctrine other than to obey.

That's really all it's about, right? Obedience. It's almost like a Milgram experiment.

Read here about the Milgram Experiments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Basically, they found that if you have an authority figure tell people what to do, even if it runs counter to their own morals, they will do it.

T-Bone

Subject:

The raised arm and the Nazi salute are disturbingly similar! n/t

Subject:	The news media, fear and the siren song of Authority
Date:	May 05 12:09
Author:	anon

Oaks radiates contempt for every living thing. So why are people drawn to him like moths to the flame?!

Growing up, I didn't know anyone who's family didn't watch the news at night. We'd talk about stuff at school the next day, forming our opinions about various events and what we'd do to correct everything. Celebrating the good things we'd heard about. After all, we were omnipotent high school kids! We could take on the world and come out on top!

Our parents would discuss things, too, ... but no more for numerous adults and their families, who now refuse to watch the news and "stay informed." What is so wrong with the news that so many people now refuse to watch it?

Could it be that the way our news media now presents the news leaves us feeling overwhelmed by their rating-driven choice to focus on the worst of the worst in all its gory, living color? Using the cover of "politically-correct" "balanced" reporting, which is actually "ratings-driven sensationalism," the news media now gives equal time to all the "bad guys", both legitimizing "evil" ~and~ obscuring the real issues in the process. We are left feeling bewildered and powerless ... despite the concluding, requisite bit of feel-good fluff.

Overwhelming us, sickening us, then tossing a tiny bit of "good" news at us as an uncaring afterthought. Making us think the whole world is going straight down the tubes now, leaving us wondering why should we even bother doing anything "right." This combination leaves people feeling scared, angry, confused, powerless to stand up to what's wrong with our world. We see a world that is so completely screwed up that the only good in it now are those few pieces of feel-good fluff systematically tossed our way. So we take back our power any other way we can, in ways that usually end up hurting ourselves or hurting other people (ie, road rage).

Until one day we wake up wondering what's gone wrong in our lives? We don't even know ourselves anymore! Who are we? Don't we have a higher purpose in life than hurting and being hurt? Oh ... look at that ad. That church has Answers and it has Authority. Oooooo, I feel good looking at their ad. Ooooo, maybe they have the answers I need.

For those who aren't seduced by the warm-fuzzy mormon ads, there's Oaks, coldly telling the whole world there IS a way to fix things after all! Just give us ~enough~ money, [<whispered> and your very soul,] add our Omnipotent Domination & Concurrent Destruction Of Every Decent Thing.... oops .... we meant *Benevolent Leadership* and, "Together Forever", we'll make everything All Better... if not in this life then in the next.

And so the terrified, powerless sheep are drawn towards the siren song of one abusive cult after another (now including the Republican party because it's being taken over by religious fanatics. Will the Democrats be conquered next?). Just how much power will these abusive cults get before everyone realizes that these cults are truly nothing more than ~ravenous~ wolves dressed up in sheep's clothing?

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

Listing of additional short Topics | Main Page