Subject:

Who really controls the Mormon Church: Its "Prophet" or Its Board of Directors?

Date:

Jan 02, 2007

Author:

steve benson

"Primus”, asked a question about who actually has been in charge of at the top of the Mormon Corporate Cult pyramid (with particular emphasis on the time period when Howard W. Hunter was its president).
 
Despite Mormon claims that they are uniquely blessed with a prophet of God leading them--and through whom and no one else the Lord dispenses divine revelation and truth to the planet at large--the plain truth of the matter is altogether different.

Who really runs the Mormon Church Corporate Machine is its Board of Directors--i.e., the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, jockeying as they all do for position and power and, through inside-the-Cultway power plays, arriving eventually at some kind of workable agreement.

It's often done, in other words, through good ol' fashioned inspired in-fighting.

How this actually is manifest in everyday control of the Mormon Church is quite basic:

1) The counselors in the First Presidency are put in place to help keep the Mormon "head prophet" from making bone-headed, uninformed and Church-damaging mistakes.

2) Likewise, its lip service to "following the prophet" notwithstanding, the Quorum of the Twelve retains both the practical power and the demonstrated inclination to circumvent (meaning, cut off at the pass) any moves by the Mormon Church president which the Quorum, as a voting body, opposes or which it considers to be at cross purposes with the advancement of the Kingdom of the Cult on Earth.

Without the support of his First Presidency counselors and the majority of the Quorum of the Twelve, the Mormon Church's president is essentially neutered, unable to do much by way of revelatory, meaningful leading.

This balance of power approach to dispensing God's will is so much an operational reality at the top of the Mormon High Command that the LDS Board of Directors effectively functions only through in-house group consensus, since its individual members feel unable and unauthorized to make major decisions without board input and direction.

This management fact therefore completely undercuts the Mormon lie that the LDS Church is allegedly led by a singularly-chosen prophet of God who receives direct and personal revelation intended to be channeled through said prophet--and who leads the Mormon Church according to the Lord's will without ultimate regard for, or dependence on, others.
_____


These facts were confirmed in personal, private discussions I had with Apostles Dallin H. Oaks and Neal A. Maxwell in September 1993, in Maxwell's office.

They were discussions that, in effect, amounted to confessionals from inside power brokers who truly know how the Cult is run.

Let's take their admissions one at a time:
_____



The Mormon "Prophet" Depends on His First Presidency Counselors To Act as His Handlers

Earth to the flock: Without his counselors, the Lord God's prophet can do nothing.

So admitted Oaks and Maxwell, using Brigham Young's false doctrine teachings on Adam-God as an example.

Both men confessed that what Young taught with regard to the God of the human race was false doctrine--blaming it, however, on his lack of counselor input.

They informed me that when Young was spouting his false Adam-God teachings, he was a relatively young, wet-behind-the-ears prophet who could have used some good advice from other Church leaders.

Indeed, they said they wished Young had had the benefit of "a couple of good counselors to help him with some of the things he was saying."

In this regard, Maxwell repeated a common maxim used among the Mormon faithful: "A prophet is not always a prophet. He is only a prophet when he speaks as such."

So, without the counter-balancing weight of more mature First Presidency counselors to keep him on the straight and narrow, the Lord's one true prophet can't be relied upon to get the revealed truth straight on such basic matters as, say, the very identity of God--and is especially handicapped if the prophet happens to be youthfully inexperienced.

For clarification, I asked Oaks and Maxwell asked what constitutes an official Mormon Church statement and inquired whether Young's declarations on Adam-God could be considered as such.

Maxwell fell back on the convenient first-funnel-the Mormon-prophet's-revelatary-impulses-through-the-First-Presidency truth filter.

He cited D&C 107, saying that "we have a scriptural admonition that three High Priests preside over the Quorum of the Twelve."

Maxwell went even further at that point, declaring that post-Joseph Smith Church presidents can't be depended on to correctly convey the truth from God to His children, so Mormon Church presidents now need their counselors to assist them in not flubbing up.

Maxwell said "the more modern approach" to matters of Mormon doctrine are governed by the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, acting together as a body. Maxwell asserted that once Joseph Smith had established the basic doctrines of the Church, then he was instructed by the Lord to call counselors.

After that, Maxwell said, Joseph Smith's role as unilaterally revealing doctrine was much more reduced. Maxwell summarized by telling us there are four levels of fundamental Church doctrine:


1. those doctrines revealed by the prophet speaking alone;

2. those doctrines revealed by the prophet in conjunction with his First Presidency counselors;

3. those doctrines revealed in First Presidency statements, with the words of the First Presidency assuming "a special status;" and

4. those doctrines revealed by official declaration.

Actually, however, Oaks needed to quickly qualify what his fellow Apostle had just said.

He followed up with a reality check on when it is advisable believe Mormon Church presidents. And that reality check came in the form of his recommendation to forget #1.

Oaks emphasized that all of the basic Church doctrines were revealed by Joseph Smith early in the history of the Church. He said that the more modern approach of Church governance has been, since the time of President Joseph F. Smith, to "beseech his counselors in the First Presidency to help him, to watch over him, so that they could together make the right decision that God wanted them to make."

In other words, three heads are better than one, even if the one head happens to be God's head prophet and supposed sole mouthpiece.
_____



The Mormon "Prophet" is Vulnerable to Being Overruled by the Vote-Wielding Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Oaks made it clear that even the Mormon prophet's utterances are subject to an affirming vote from the Quorum of the Twelve.

This came with both his and Maxwell's admission that the Mormon prophet can't always be trusted to tell the truth--especially when it comes to prophesying--especially since since Oaks said prophesying isn't actually a main job requirement for prophets.

Oaks told me that "we shouldn't be citing fulfilled [Mormon prophet] prophecies, because prophesying is only a minor aspect of what a prophet does." Oaks said that, in actuality, the fundamental role of a prophet is "to testify of Christ." He said that "foretelling events" is a prophet's "minor responsibility."

Maxwell added that Church members "shouldn't use fulfilled prophecies to keep box scores." He added, "We've never had a perfect prophet or a perfect general authority."

When it was then pointed out to Oaks and Maxwell that Joseph Smith had failed in his prediction of a temple being built in Missouri before those living in Smith's generation would pass away, Maxwell commented with a laugh, "Maybe there was too much foretelling and not enough testifying."

Oaks observed, "Prophecies are for private use and private application, more than they are for general Church application."

I asked if it was not problematic for a Church to be led by prophets who are making frequent mistakes in their prophesying.

Oaks replied, "In total, there aren't that many mistakes that have been made." Of 5,000 prophecies, he said, "only five haven't been fulfilled." He then added, "But we shouldn't be keeping track, anyway."

Maxwell noted that according to one scripture, even Jesus was said not to know when the Second Coming is scheduled, so, Maxwell said, "no one really knows" and "everyone could be mistaken."

The bottom line, Maxwell declared, is that "it is our duty to be loyal to the prophet."

He said that he disagreed politically with Ezra Taft Benson "on certain things" but felt he could always follow him in good conscience when, as prophet, President Benson was emphasizing a particular aspect of the gospel.

Oaks agreed--but with a very important condition.

Oaks vowed he would "march from sunup to sundown" in following the prophet on a particular teaching but said "if the prophet was to come out and say that we are no longer going to preach the Book of Mormon as true," he "would look around for an affirmation of that by the Quorum of the Twelve."

So, in the end, the Lord's specially-anointed prophet, revelator and president of the Lord's one and only true Church can be overruled by a vote of the Church's Board of Directors.
_____


Mormon Church Institutional Inertia Prevents Its Top Leadership from Making Authoritative Decisions Without First Getting Board Input and Approval

Declarative positions from the top of the Mormon chain of command can actually be delayed or prevented by--yes, brothers and sisters--vacation schedules.

A case in point was when the Mormon Church blatantly refused to release, despite subpoena directive from the Salt Lake City police department, documents from the William McLellin collection deemed important to the investigation of the Mark Hofmann bombing murders.

Oaks said that one of the reasons why the Church did not cough up the legally-demanded documents was because there was no one around Church headquarters at the time who was in a position of authority to approve such a release.

Oaks said that there were no Church leaders available at the time to work with the police on the McLellin paper caper because the Church authorities authorized to do so were all on vacation.

Oaks insisted argued that the Church only had between May and August of the year in which it was subpoenaed as the available interval in which to get the McLellin papers out.

Since, Oaks argued, that everyone who apparenlty counted was on vacation in August, there was no one to make decisions during that time frame.

So, the Lord's mouth can have a stock stuffed in it when His appointed servants are out of the office for rest and relaxation.
_____


This, then, is how and why the Mormon Church is run the way it is.

Isn't it wonderful?

Isn't it marvelous?

 

Subject:

The interviews with Oaks and Maxwell have proven...

Date:

Jan 02 22:30

Author:

Max (not logged in)

...to be very insightful as it relates to several topics you have posted.

Steve, with respect to those interviews, did either Dallin or Neal indicate or convey they had personal knowledge of or represented they had actual visitations with Joseph or Jesus? Did they, when it appeared their answers were creating more doubt, open up with stories of actual, personal revelation and visitation?

The reason I ask - I recall a story often told here in AZ about M.E. Peterson's visit to the Mesa temple. He arrived late and had the stake president contact the temple president to open the temple for him. While in the temple late on this Saturday eve, it was alleged that M.E. Peterson saw his wife (who had passed away some years earlier) in the celestial room - - the effect of which was a glowing face and superbly white hair. This story is told to convey the existence of and visition with beings from beyond - just to ensure the perspective that only mormons experience such.

In other words, when all else fails, pull out the signs as a last ditch effort to convince - did they do that with you?

Max

 

Subject:

But why the big "power play"?

Date:

Jan 02 22:30

Author:

NumLock

It's pretty set who is going to become president next...the senior member of the quorum of the twelve.

So where is the "power" that those guys seek? Appointments to to Boards of "choice" companies with the best director's stipends? (money). Is it the chance to give talks in general conference and thereby sell books and obtain royalties?

Is the power just in lording over the minions and being revered?

Why would there be jockying for position and power plays?

What are the incentives?

 

 

 

Subject:

My new phrase is: "A prophet is only a prophet, when what he says doesn't make the church look bad". Instead of the normal cop-out phrase made by apologists.

 

 

Subject:

Handle the Prophet

Date:

Jan 03 01:52

Author:

thor

When I attended BYU in the 80's, Ezra Taft Benson and entourage came to campus to make a pronouncement that would be binding on the entire Church as then-president Holland put it. Benson then gave a right wing talk about the Constitution. I was surprised when there was little press coverage on the event and even more surprised when it was not mentioned in the Church News or Ensign. Then it hit me that Benson had been manipulated by his handlers. They had approved of his special messages to the women, men, and children of the Church and those had been distributed widely. But they did not think his John Bircher mentality would make good press. So they whisked him to BYU and made him think he was giving a talk to the whole Church. Then they made sure there was no distribution of the talk and it was never heard of again. I was a true believer at the time but I could still see he was being handled. And so it continues.

thor

 

Subject:

Re: Handle the Prophet

Date:

Jan 03 04:23

Author:

Reinventing Grace

>>>Then they made sure there was no distribution of the talk and it was never heard of again. <<<


I was there, hadn't picked up on the whole political bent of things yet.

But I think the talk was handed out in a little booklet form, with glossy covers, to all who were in attendance. So it wasn't exactly swept under the rug...

RG

 

Subject:

The ETB address to which "thor" refers was, in fact, handled quite skittishly by the Corporate Church . . .

Date:

Jan 03 05:16

Author:

steve benson

even though my grandfather was president of the Mormon Church when he delivered it.

Entitled "The Constitution--A Heavenly Banner," it was republished by Deseret Book Company in 1986, but with the following significant qualification appearing on a front page preceding the actual text of ETB's talk and read as follows:

"The author wishes to make clear that this is not a Churchpublication, and the opinions and views expressed by him in this publication are those for which he alone is responsible."

"The author" (meaning the president of the Mormon Church) whose "opinions and views" (although spoken from the pulpit in his capacity as president of the Mormon Church), are his "alone," in no way represent the official position of the Mormon Church on anything and are expressions of personal perspective for which he, and only he, is individually, not corporately, responsible.

Talk about a solid endorsement.

Once my grandfather became Church president, his handlers began purging the record and shutting him up, trying to "mainstream" him away from his radical views and agenda.

He was relatively quickly thereafter hit with significant mental and physical disabilities, making that effort much easier for the Cult's make-over artists.

"thor" actually caught the Corporate Church's uncomfortable reality in the situation quite succinctly.

 

Subject:

Wouldn't that be the input of corporate lawyers and wasn't this the period

Date:

Jan 03 11:38

Author:

LongGone2

during which the federal government was examining universities and churches for compliance with the Civil Rights Act. I know there were moves in the late 70's to remove ALL federal support funds--even from individual students--who attended universities which had official policies which were anti-black and anti-female.

I also remember this being an era when the feds were looking very closely at tax-exempt status of non-profit organizations which participated in political movements. Ironically, one of the biggest pushes for this was conservative organizations which wanted organizations such as PUSH investigated for tax violations.

Bottom line? I'm wondering if this speech (what did it say?) was instrumental in getting the feds looking at the church's ban on blacks holding the priesthood. And wasn't this the same time period as Sonia Johnson's spilled the beans over the church's active political organizing to oppose the Equal Rights Amendment?

I do believe the church has done some mighty fancy footwork and revelating to keep itself and its tax-free institutions (BYU) in line with federal law.

 

 

Subject:

So what you are actually saying is

Date:

Jan 03 04:08

Author:

rt

that the church is not led by the prophet alone, he doesn't receive revelations all the time, his counselors are supposed to actually counsel him and the presidency and the 12 must act in unison. Is that a correct summary?

Can't say that I am shocked.

Read chapter 21 of BKP's biography "Watchman on the tower". It's all there and out in the open, I don't see what the big deal is - except maybe a clash of unrealistic expectations and incorrect opinions with reality.

 

Subject:

What I am saying is what I said: The Mormon Church is all about corporation, not revelation. Not that this should be shocking, of course.

Date:

Jan 03 04:11

Author:

steve benson

Mormon Cult presidents\prophets do very little prophesying.

When they do make a stab at prophesying, they can't be trusted to prophesy accurately or to teach doctrine truthfully.

They can be outvoted by lesser authorities in the Quorum of the Twelve.

They can be controlled by a board of directors acting to thwart the alleged prophet's revelations and thus prevent him from being the Mormon God's supposed sole pipeline from heaven to the world.

They can be stymied into revelatory and administrative inaction because of General Authority vacation schedules.

And, lordy lordy, these little ungodly gems come from members of the board of directors themselves.

Gee, sounds like absolute divine direction to me.

 

Subject:

Gordon B. Hinckley seemed to have more power than most.

Date:

Jan 03 06:22

Author:

Rubicon

I always thought Gordon B. Hinckley used the unique opportunity of the whole First Presidency under Kimball hitting the skids to carve out an extra large chunk of power.

He was a counceler but he was really running the church under three other prophets. He seemed more like the prophet than the prophet was.

Under Hinckley's rule the church has become more corporate than ever.

 

Subject:

Howard W Hunter said the church isn't ran by one man when he became prophet

Date:

Jan 03 06:17

Author:

Rubicon

I remember when Howard W. Hunter gave his first general conference talk as prophet and he said the church isn't ran by one man but the Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency run the church as a group. Howard W. Hunter was feeble and quite out of it when he became prophet.

I'll never forget seeing Thomas S. Monson handle Ezra Taft Benson when he started telling a story about being in Germany and Thomas S. Monson pulls him in mid speech from the pulpit and then says, "Thank you President Benson for your inspired words." I couldn't help but think the old man had become a puppet.

 

 

Subject:

What about the handling of church finances?

Date:

Jan 03 09:37

Author:

javanorm

I would naturally assume that the power structure is similar. However, I remember someone posting a while back on what seemed to be credible information listing the "Prophet" as sole proprietor of the financial holdings of LDS, Inc. (I think this information came from Britain, where churches are required by law to be more open about their finances than they are in the US, but my memory on that point may not be reliable). I doubt this proprietorship (if it actually exists) is a trump card for the "Prophet" on financial matters; if it were, he would surely be able to use it to hold sway on matters of doctrine as well. But I wonder whether it is a chip that a skilled Prez could use to tilt the balance of power in his direction.

 

Subject:

But BY did listen to his counselors

Date:

Jan 03 09:58

Author:

Uncle Mo

steve benson wrote:
> So admitted Oaks and Maxwell, using Brigham Young's false doctrine teachings on Adam-God as an example.

> Both men confessed that what Young taught with regard to the God of the human race was false doctrine--blaming it, however, on his lack of counselor input.

> They informed me that when Young was spouting his false Adam-God teachings, he was a relatively young, wet-behind-the-ears prophet who could have used some good advice from other Church leaders.

> Indeed, they said they wished Young had had the benefit of "a couple of good counselors to help him with some of the things he was saying."

That sets off my BS detector, because BY HAD counselors one of whom was none other than Jedediah Grant who launched "The Reformation" and got the Blood Atonement doctrine under full swing in early Utah. This in turn led to many innocent people being murdered with the blessing on of the Cult. None of that would have happened if BY wasn't listening to his counselors.

 

Subject:

The character of BY's counselors

Date:

Jan 03 10:31

Author:

Uncle Mo

Let me also add that BY's counselors Heber C. Kimball and Jedediah Grant like BY were uneducated folk preachers that could hardly form a grammatically correct sentence and routinely used profanity in their sermons. In other words, garbage in, garbage out. But hey, they were the Lard's anointed.

 

Subject:

JS didn't listen to his counselors.

Date:

Jan 03 10:43

Author:

ava

William Law was in the first presidency and drafted the Nauvoo expositor.

But just because JS neglected to do it doesn't mean that the "modern church" follows the same methods.

 

 

Subject:

Question about Handlers

Date:

Jan 03 16:21

Author:

Zim

Steve:

This was a very enlightening post.

One question: When you refer to ETBs "handlers" does that mean the rest of the FP and 12 or is there some other group of PR flaks who act as handlers? If it's another group, who appoints them and controls them?

 

Subject:

Categorizing ETB's handlers and their respective responsibilites . . .

Date:

Jan 03 17:22

Author:

steve benson

Let’s go down the list:

ETB’s Office Staff, in Complicity with Benson Family

Led by chief of staff Gary Gillespie (with encouragement from Benson family members), photos were carefully staged of my frail and enfeebled grandfather for distribution through Church-owned media.

Even in private Benson family gatherings, concerted efforts were made to prevent certain photographically-angled shots from being taken which showed a medical tube that was inserted in ETB’s nostril.

When my grandfather was recuperating from serious illness at the home of one his children, Beth, in the Salt Lake suburb of Sandy, fake letters were put out over his name to his family (letters actually composed by ETB office staff), which included strict instructions not to reveal his whereabouts to anyone.

In his later, increasingly dysfunctional years, many other letters were sent to both Church members and Benson family members themselves that had, in fact, been composed by ETB’s office staff--then signed with a signature machine.

At one public event, my grandfather’s arm and elbow were actually manipulated from behind by his office staff, in order to falsely make it appear as if he was waving to the crowd.

In another public appearance at a sacrament meeting in the Salt Lake City Ensign ward where my father was then bishop, ETB's office staff helped him to the podium, where he soon began rambling in a confused and embarrassingly-telling spectacle of incapability. When it became clear that he could not even end his remarks, his staff ended them for him, slowly escorting my manipulated grandfather back to his seat.

When I went public with the actual condition of my grandfather’s health and criticized the Mormon Church for deliberately misrepresenting it, I was warned by my father that if I ever spoke to the press again about the subject, I would be permanently barred from seeing my grandfather.

I was also told by Benson family that it was sometimes best not to tell Church members the whole truth.

Benson family members (including siblings and cousins) wrote me lengthy personal letters, questioning my character, motivations and spirituality because of my decision to speak openly about my grandfather’s deteriorating health and his inability to lead the Church.

In these letters which evidenced signs of deep personal denial, they stubbornly insisted that ETB was not incapacitated and that I was full of pride. One sent a letter to a local newspaper editor, disputing my claims. Another wrote me anonymously, saying they were embarrassed to be related to me.
_____


Mormon Church Public Relations Spokesmen

In my grandfather’s case, the primary Church disinformation officer was Don LeFevere, who falsely claimed for media consumption that no major Church administrative decisions were made without first consulting with and receiving permission from ETB.

LeFevere’s justification to me for putting out these knowingly false statements was that they had been approved by his superiors.

_____


Members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Members of the Quorum helped handle my grandfather by keeping quiet in public about his actual incapacitated mental and physical state.

As Dallin Oaks attested to me personally, LeFevere’s claims that ETB was running the Church were simply not true.

Members of the Twelve, in fact, saw my grandfather on a regular rotational basis, but only to check in on him, not to conduct official Church business with him. They acknowledged in private that not only was he not leading the Church, but that his condition was steadily worsening.

Still, even in the face of public claims about his alleged ability to administer the affairs of the Church that they knew from their own experience were not true, members of the Quorum remained complicitly silent, while advising me to take this matter up through Church back channels in order to avoid any (as Oaks warned me) “unintended consequences.”
_____


Members of the First Presidency

In particular, Gordon B. Hinckley disingenuously told Church members at General Conference that while ETB was physically weak, he was still leading the Church, with assistance from his counselors in the First Presidency.

My grandfather was doing no such thing.

The reins of power had been effectively wrenched from an increasingly physically and mentally diminished Ezra Taft Benson by Hinckley and Monson themselves in 1989, when they orchestrated a unannounced transfer of power of attorney to run the LDS Corporation from ETB to them, via ETB’s personal signature machine.
_____

 

 

 

Subject:

my tbm dad worked with plenty of church officials during this time....

Date:

Jan 03 18:04

Author:

danboyle

and he said to us at dinner one night, while ETB was still alive, "Gordon B Hinckley has been running the church for a long time"

So, to insiders it was no secret that Steve's G'pa was totally incapacitated. Steve B. spoke the truth, and got slammed by his family. The insiders lied about it, and got rewarded. Nice cult.

 

Subject:

It was obvious to us in the peanut gallery that Gordo had been running things since the Kimball era.

Date:

Jan 04 15:50

Author:

Rubicon

I think it's obvious that Gordo has been the man ever since he became the "Special Advisor" to the First Presidency when Kimball, Tanner, and Romney hit the skids health wise.

Also, look at how the system is set up. You are running a very good chance the prophet is going to be old and feeble because he's the oldest surviving member of the Quorum of the Twelve. This buys confidence with the public but allows the handlers to control things more than if the prophet was a young guy.

 

Subject:

When some of the people on RfM slam Steve Benson

Date:

Jan 03 18:10

Author:

cl2

because he is "exmo" royalty, I have to chuckle as some of what Steve was doing all those years--speaking out--was one of those things my husband and I were listening to. To have someone from the mormon ROYALTY speaking out was very eye-opening. It was OBVIOUS to us that ETB wasn't well and there was no way he could be running the church. Steve had a lot more to lose than most of us to speak out and him speaking out has probably helped a lot of the rest of us find our way out--so I never think twice about him seeming to be exmo royalty.

I think it is a travesty that in his grandfather's old age, he couldn't just be left to live out those last years in peace. What h*ll his life must have been those last years and for his family--his very own children--to condone it.

 

Subject:

Yes, this is excellent material

Date:

Jan 04 09:24

Author:

John Andersen

It shows how the denial and deception work at the very highest levels.

It helps us to realize the mechanics of cults.

 

Subject:

It takes major caholis to do what Steve did, that's why most GA descendents tow the line.

Date:

Jan 04 15:59

Author:

Rubicon

Being in Steve's position basically means being disowned by your family, becoming a huge enemy target for the church members, having former friends turn on you. Not nice stuff.

It takes a set of balls to get out when you come from a major church celebrity family like the Bensons. Most people don't want to go through with that, it's actually easier to tow the line and be a sheep.

 

Subject:

History often repeats itself

Date:

Jan 03 18:19

Author:

NoToJoe

Its great having first-hand accounts on this board. Thanks for the post.

I suspect we will soon see this scenario play itself out again. GBH can barely hold back the drool as he speaks. Although he is still functional, I don't believe a 90+ year old can effectively run a multi-billion dollar corporation. I suspect even now his only role is that of 'poster-child'.

 

Subject:

Not every family has a Steve Benson though

Date:

Jan 04 09:25

Author:

John Andersen

Steve is a role model of courage.

My guess is we won't see such a figure break ranks in the Hinckley family.

 

Subject:

Hinckley family members talk and have talked, believe me . . .

Date:

Jan 04 15:10

Author:

steve benson

Whether they will be able to eventually do so publicly--considering their individual circumstances and personal realities--is not certain, but certainly hoped for.

 

Subject:

Re: How Mormon Church handlers actually handle the Mormon Church prophet . . .

Date:

Jan 03 18:20

Author:

anon

My parents were converts and I am so incredibly grateful to not have my name attached to any mormon "royalty". As if leaving wasn't hard enough, but to also have that? Steve is seen here as now ex-mormon royalty, but at what price? It isn't one I would want and I really feel for him. I think he would rather be known for his work and who HE is, than his heritage.

 

Subject:

Thank you for writing

Date:

Jan 03 18:39

Author:

Kentucky Crimson

I always look forward to your posts regarding these behind the scenes looks at what really goes on.

I used to wonder what was wrong with me. Now I know my innermost thoughts are confirmed by revealed truths such as those you and others share here on the board and elsewhere.

I look forward to more in the future.

 

 

Subject:

I had my first glimpse of this with SWK...

Date:

Jan 04 01:13

Author:

Deenie, the dreaded single adult

I recall a gen. conf., toward the end of SWK's reign, where they led him up to the podium, and he began rambling about how much he "loved all the members in the Salt Lake Valley." As soon as he said this, they hustled up & whisked him back to his seat.

I waited to see what the conference issue of the Ensign would say.

Sure enough, printed there was a short "greeting," allegedly by SWK, but not at all what he'd said at conference. Not one word about 'the Salt Lake Valley,' or anything remotely incoherent. It was a brief, but very coherent greeting--and I remember being faintly shocked. Were they trying to hide the fact that he was aging & not as 'sharp' as he once was? Unfortunately for me, I let it go at that. None of my friends seemed to notice the inconsistency; even when I pointed it out, they just shrugged, so I didn't question it further, either.

I don't have the 'inside info,' like Steve does, but I can certainly agree--just from the little that I've observed--that this is how aging church leaders are handled.

What I don't really understand is--why can't a church leader say, "I'm not in such good health anymore; I'm too tired, too often--it's time for me to resign." Why should that be impossible? Why the big facade? Everyone knows that they're human; why the pretense that they never grow old? Do they think it would make people "lose faith?" Why? How?

Thanks, Steve, for your well-documented account...

:^)

 

Subject:

It's all about *continuity*, Deenie...whether or not they are

Date:

Jan 04 16:17

Author:

dunn and did that

wearing their *Depends*, or not. :)

In short, TSCC has always claimed an "unbroken line of succession". And, if the leader-guy were to be *put out to pasture*, then this "succession" thing would take on a completely new (and unexpected) dimension, in the collective minds of the collective, I imagine.

In short, "a king is a king is a king", until the king is dead.

So, Mormonism is really a "frustrated Kingdom", of sorts!

 

 

Subject:

Re: How Mormon Church handlers actually handle the Mormon Church prophet . . .

Date:

Jan 04 07:25

Author:

better not say

Steve, your posts helped my husband and I get out of the church a few years ago. Thankyou.

 

Subject:

Re: How Mormon Church handlers actually handle the Mormon Church prophet . . .

Date:

Jan 04 09:35

Author:

Robert

It's hard for me to have sympathy for a man who was evil, harsh and a racist. I got so sick of the Mormon royalty crap. I believe the leaders are terrible people.

 

 

Subject:

So is anyone going to take a stab at Deenie's question?

Date:

Jan 04 12:15

Author:

anon

I'd like to hear opinions on why it's so all-fired important that 90-something-year-old men not appear to be getting old and frail like 90-something-year-olds always do. Why is their age-appropriate illness/deterioration such a tightly guarded secret? Even when I was TBM, it would have seemed to me that to hide that made the rest of their claims (some of which I was having trouble twisting around in my mind into a semi-comfortable niche) less credible. But then, I was always very bothered by the sugar coating of history and such. I always figured I could handle being told a not-so-pretty truth better than I could handle that vague feeling that I was being manipulated and being frustrated at why I was having so many forbidden doubts. (Talking about being told the truth as far as church history type topics are concerned, not whether "this dress makes me look fat," in which case I'll take a little sugar coating, thank you. :)) On this board, I hear being lied to and deliberately deceived as reasons that commonly rank very high as to why we dumped the whole mormon ball of wax, and I know this definitely played a big role in my exmormonism.

Why would failing health in an almost prehistorically old man be such a testimony breaker? Why would an "honorable discharge" due to health/age reasons make the "prophet" any less of a "man of God?"

 

Subject:

I completely agree. Case and point all the issues that the pope JPII was going through a few years ago.

Date:

Jan 04 15:31

Author:

ava

As the overall population ages and lives longer, they really should think about changing this policy.

On the other hand, if they keep the status quo they might lose more people because they are totally out of touch with society.

Yet in the end, it's their church/profit to do with what they want. IMO, it is simply one of the more illogical practices.

 

Subject:

Because there's been this whole mythology built up that the way the Lord chooses the next prophet is

Date:

Jan 04 17:43

Author:

Mark (was "Still Active")

by taking (killing off) the current one (and as needed taking out any intermediate apostles in line to become prophet so that the one He wants is first in seniority when He takes the current one). So if the current one's still around, even if feeble, it must be (by this reasoning) that God still wants him there leading the Church, so heaven forbid that anyone would acknowledge that he's no longer mentally capable. And thus they put on a facade for SWK, ETB, and others who have become simply figureheads.

 

Subject:

On the flip side, though, TSCC is a "corporate sole"...

Date:

Jan 04 15:45

Author:

on the flip side

And, as such, it is almost like having a "king" sitting on a throne: the man's OFFICE (of the president) is what is incorporated!

And, as such, when the man whose office is incorporated becomes incapable of handling the so-called "power" of his office, the church organization will either collapse--through his incapability of continuing to "manage" it--or, it will suffer *loss*, of one type or other: unless there is a transfer of power, even while the declining old guy still lives!

It has to do with logistics (and the very fact that the Crutch set it up as a *corporate sole*, to replace the former "Trustee-in-Trust for the COJCOLDS" (back in 1977, was it?)

I think that probably this is one of the *weaknesses* inherent in creating a corporation that is a *corporate sole*.

The LAST thing that those guys want is for the people to lose confidence in their system and *way of doing things*.

The idea of "continuity" is important, to Mormons.

 

Subject:

Re: How Mormon Church handlers actually handle the Mormon Church prophet . . .

Date:

Jan 04 17:37

Author:

kolobotomy

About 18 yrs ago I lived in a downtown SLC ward where Steve's aunt (ETB's) daughter lived. ETB would leave his apt where he was presumably "resting comfortably" and visit. He always was invited to speak. One time he began his remarks "God bless the Boise temple workers" and then commenced to address us as if we were those beloved folk. After a few minutes he finished (or was preempted) and was reseated. One of the earphoned security guys leaned forward whispering to the bishop who then stood to inform the congregation that ETB was going to be visiting the Boise temple and was just practicing his remarks. It was more than clear to everyone there that he had no idea where he was or who we were. The spin never stops.

 

Subject:

Thanks for your post. Your description is the same kind of confusion that I also saw manifested by my grandfather, both in public . . .

Date:

Jan 04 17:40

Author:

steve benson

and in private.

 

 

 

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