Subject: Dating vs. Hanging Out-June 2006 Ensign quotes [Dallin Oaks - Mormon Apostle]
Date: May 26, 2006
Author: zinah

Here you go. I have the June Ensign right here. Here are some favorite quotes from Dallin H. Oaks CES fireside.

"This tendency to postpone adult responsibilities, including marriage and family, is surely visible among our LDS young adults."

"Knowledgeable observers report that dating has nearly disappeared from college campuses and among young adults generally. It has been replaced with "hanging out"

"you don't need to do your looking through internet chat rooms or dating services"

"...look for someone to pair off with. Start with a variety of dates with a variety of young women, and when that phase yields a good prospect proceed to courtship. It's marriage time. That is what the Lord intends for His young sons and daughters."

"And, young women, please make is easier for these shy males to ask for a simple, inexpensive date. ...Finally, young women if you turn down a date, be kind. Otherwise you may crush a nervous and shy questioner and destroy him as a potential dater, and that could hurt some other sister."

and blah blah blah.

Subject: Now they complain about groups?
Date: May 26 19:10
Author: Dagny

I remember when the church came out and advised kids to date in groups. Never be alone together! They did their part to squelch kids from learning how to date and relate with the opposite sex one on one. Heaven forbid they might have sex.

Well, no surprise, the kids now date in groups and the pairing isn't happening soon enough for the church.

They can't have it both ways.

When my daughter was in high school here in Mormon land, I was surprised when her dates, even to things like the prom, had to be with a group. It's like they police themselves to make sure no one is able to develop a relationship without the group present.

I think the kids are getting mixed signals on this and many other topics. The church is muddying the waters as usual.

Subject: Dagny, I thought the same thing!
Date: May 28 10:51
Author: JBryan

God this is rich!!! For years they beat the drum for the youth not to get serious and to group date...in other words....HANG OUT TOGETHER!!!

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. What a bunch of morons the 15 are!

Subject: Don't make arguments that aren't there
Date: May 26 17:01
Author: Johnnie Walker

Actually, Oaks equally blasts males for failing to "step it up" and pair off and get married, essentially calling those that did not do so immature. It you read the whole article you would see that there is plenty of equal opportunity guilting going on here.

The attack that I felt was unfair only to females (as opposed to both genders) was Oaks' blaming of the "women's movement" for the phenomenon of "hanging out."

Subject: Heaven forbid a women wants to finish a grad degree and not have to sacrifice for her worthy, priesthood holder...
Date: May 26 17:02
Author: David Peters

OMG, did he just complain that dating is replaced by hanging out. Do they honestly need the old fashioned conventions to get to know someone that the church would have them marry for time and all eternity?

"This tendency to postpone adult responsibilities, including marriage and family, is surely visible among our LDS young adults"

Huge problem. You know, with those law degrees and such that are easily obtained by not pumping out babies, you're still making money Faust. Don't worry so much!

He doesn't come down on women directly for wanting higher education, right? I remember a few articles that glorify the sacrifice for a women for her "priesthooder".

Subject: This article is good news.
Date: May 26 17:08
Author: Stray Mutt

It means LDS kids haven't been buying into the brethren's counsel to marry young. There is hope.

Subject: Most TBM teens I know would roll their eyes at such drivel.
Date: May 28 06:23
Author: Mormon Inc.

Oaks sounds more stupid than the "don't put off marriage!" talks my generation got from Ezra Taft Benson and Specer W. Kimball.

Subject: Re: "Knowledgeable observers report"....???
Author: Johnnie Walker

Actually that is probably the most accurate line in the entire article. It's well documented that formal courtship is essentially dead among young Americans.

Subject: It is accurate, that's why its scary.....
Author: Jonny the Smoke

Here is one of the top GA's saying that he gets his information from "knowledgeable sources" reporting.

The scary question is then....who are these sources, who and when are they observing and then reporting back to the GA's.

It feels a bit like the SS or KGB or CIA.

Subject: "...please make is easier for these shy males to ask for a simple, inexpensive date."
Date: May 26 17:50
Author: anon

EXCUSE ME?! Hello!

Here's an idea: Let's make women everywhere responsible for Dallin Oaks' past dating failures in college. And why stop there? Let's make them responsible for the monetary cost of dating, and for ruining the potential dates of fellow "sisters" the Mo-World over. GIVE ME A FLYING BREAK!

And don't you just *love* how he fails to see the connection between IMMENSE pressure to get married, and Mormon kids just not dating as much. Hmmmmmm {ponder} Rocket scientist I am not, but good grief, when *every* date is a potential engagement, it kinda takes the FUN out of it. You know, that thing young people like to have? Starts with F ends with N?

Those quotes are a perfect example of why the town Geek should never write dating rules for the rest of us.

Subject: so why can't the "young women" ask someone out?
Date: May 26 18:59
Author: scarecrowfromoz

"And, young women, please make is easier for these shy males to ask for a simple, inexpensive date. ...Finally, young women if you turn down a date, be kind."

Is it because it makes her appear as a "slut," gives her perceived "power" over the Priesthood holding male in doing the asking, or both?

Subject: Now they complain about groups?
Date: May 26 19:10
Author: Dagny

I remember when the church came out and advised kids to date in groups. Never be alone together! They did their part to squelch kids from learning how to date and relate with the opposite sex one on one. Heaven forbid they might have sex.

Well, no surprise, the kids now date in groups and the pairing isn't happening soon enough for the church.

They can't have it both ways.

When my daughter was in high school here in Mormon land, I was surprised when her dates, even to things like the prom, had to be with a group. It's like they police themselves to make sure no one is able to develop a relationship without the group present.

I think the kids are getting mixed signals on this and many other topics. The church is muddying the waters as usual.

Subject: Dagny, I thought the same thing!
Date: May 28 10:51
Author: JBryan

God this is rich!!! For years they beat the drum for the youth not to get serious and to group date...in other words....HANG OUT TOGETHER!!!

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. What a bunch of morons the 15 are!

Subject: group dates
Date: May 28 04:17
Author: I married at 18

I remember the group dating rule only applied to younger kids...girls under 18 and boys under 21. People generally began pairing off at 16...but that was really frowned upon by most.

As soon as the girls turned 18 and guys got back from their missions, pairing off and marrying asap was strongly encouraged.

I knew lots of girls who got engaged at 17 and married the summer after high school graduation. I would have been one of these girls, but my boyfriend/fiance dumped me in February. So I met another guy in June and married him in December. All that happened in the same year. In Salt Lake City.

Now I wonder what the heck I was thinking back then! All I know is I was DESPERATE to get married. I lived every day in dread of becoming and "old maid" by the age of 21. I wasn't even picky....any nice enough guy would have done. In fact, when my future husband was first pointed out to me by the person setting us up on a date, I didn't say "he's cute" or "I like him"...I said "He'll do."

(hanging head in embarrassment!)

No, this wasn't the 50's....this was the late 80's.

Lucky for me...my husband was a college graduate never-mo. His family was HORRIFIED that he was marrying an 18 year old mormon! (Looking back...I totally understand their concerns...lol!) Ha ha ha...defying all the odds, we're still married today!

Subject: And the award for dumbest line goes to....
Date: May 28 04:55
Author: Anon

"This tendency to postpone adult responsibilities, including marriage and family, is surely visable among our LDS young adults." Postponing marriage and family until the age of what...18 for girls and 21 for guys? Utah has the lowest average ages for marriage and it's still not good enough for the Morg. God forbid females don't marry straight out of high school and males straight off their missions. I'm only 20 and whenever I talk to my TBM mom, she mentions that I should be looking to get married soon. Too bad it's no longer like the good ol' days where it was acceptable for creepy old men like Joe Smith to marry 14 year old girls. Even if it was, it still probably wouldn't be soon enough for the Morg leaders.

Subject: Inexpensive dates
Date: May 28 10:26
Author: Yse

There's the problem in a nutshell.

When people are so poor they cannot go on an "expensive" date once in a while, they have no business getting married or producing children.

In essence, Oaks is telling people to "settle" - which invariably sets the tone for things to come.

My best friend dropped out of College to marry her RM. The only dates they ever had involved a hamburger and a bag of fries.

He had no resources and did not even buy her a ring, but that was ok with her at the time because he offered a temple marriage. They were obedient, that's all that mattered, and surely the Lord would bless them.

WRONG!
The expected blessings never materialized and, half a dozen kids later, she still does not have a ring. Too often, they cannot even afford a hamburger and fries. Try taking a family of eight to McDonalds on one tithed salary.

Instead, she has had plenty of misery due to shaky finances, too many kids, and an immature husband. Oh what a difference waiting a few years would have made.

Oaks is an idiot.

Subject: It's the complete opposite of what mainstream Christian churches say
Date: May 28 12:44
Author: Nightingale

...where dating in groups throughout your teens is strongly encouraged. It's seen as the best way for young adults to get to know a lot of people on a friendly basis, have fun, learn about life, make good choices and get their lives on track well before settling down with the first person they feel the least bit attracted to.

The emphasis is not on marrying young. It is, however, on being responsible and yes, chaste. That at least teaches kids to put some thought into what they're doing. It's also a good way to take the pressure OFF the relationship because they don't feel like one date is the equivalent of a pre-engagement agreement or something.

I'm surprised Mormons apparently have a long life line. You'd think members, male and female alike, would be all worn out by the time they hit 50, what with 30 years of child-rearing, often in grinding poverty, added to the exhaustion of the Mormon Treadmill and the never-ending quest for perfection. A missionary even told me there is no rest even in Mormon Heaven - just an extension of the hell on earth the Mormon Church already imposes on its people. {{{shriek}}}

Subject: This is a global phenomenon, not just in the church. The church won't turn this tide.
Date: May 28 12:50
Author: MarkJ

I was thinking the same thing, the church is getting what it wanted and is unhappy with it.

In places as diverse as Japan and Italy, the trend has been for young adults to delay entry into the work-a-day world of family and job. Maybe it is just part of the "30 is the new 20" development. Maybe it is a delayed social reaction to longer life expectancies, or maybe it's the first generation in centuries that isn't having life accelerated by the prospect of early death by war or disease. The increased security and flexibility of modern life has widened the window for pairing off and marriage from the 2 to 5 years it use to be to 10 to 15 years.

Our family has lived overseas most of the last 13 years in a number of countries while our four children have grown up. In every country we have been part of a large, culturally diverse ex-pat community with a strong and supportive social life for our kids. None of our kids have been interested in serious dating while in high school, or even in the first couple years of college. This isn't a Utah thing, or a Mormon thing, or even an American thing. It is a change on a global scale that is changing demographics around the world. Our two oldest kids are now in their late 20's and only now are considering the possibility of marriage.

And it is unreasonable to expect young people to remain celibate, especially when the age of puberty (for girls at least) has dropped to the age of 11 or 12. When it use to be be 15 or 16, and kids married between 18 to 21, the delay in sexual activity was only a few years. Now it might be a 20 year wait. What normal person is going to wait that long at the height of the hormonal flood? Or still be normal if they do wait 20 years?

Of course, a church lead by revelation might have seen this change coming, instead of having to react long after the trend is established. The church, again, demonstrates that it has no influence over the course of society, and no worthwhile advice.

Subject: Oaks lays blame at women's feet in Ensign article
Date: May 29 17:10
Author: gemini

I read Oak's article about dating vs hanging out.

If women weren't so doggone independent and aggressive due to the women's movement, then men wouldn't be afraid to ask them out on dates. Not only that, but by women letting men hang out and *gasp* feeding them (he called it subsidizing freeloaders) the the men won't "grow up" and start pairing off instead of just hangin out. Oh, and get this...he even says that "hanging out" is glamorized on TV and that contributes to the reason men don't ask women out on dates.

Also, because men are so darned sensitive, if we women aren't kind when we turn down a date, it might hurt the man's feelings so much he won't ask anyone else out...hear that men...you are just a bunch of wussies who can't handle rejection! He also said that women should look for inexpensive and simple dates and not expect expensive ones and certainly not dates that could lead to relationships, at least not until several dates later. And, don't go out on the internet to look, either, you losers.

The fact of the matter is society has changed. Men and women are waiting to get their education and started in their careers before saddling themselves with spouses and children. I think Oak's message (subliminal) is that the longer these young people wait to get hitched, the more prone they are to

have pre-marital sex which will lead to
no temple marriage which might lead to
having fewer children which might lead to
becoming more liberal in their thinking which might lead to
leaving the church thus not paying money to the corporation.

It almost sounds like the church is getting desperate. They can't bring in converts so they have to depend on home growing the numbers in the church and it just ain't happenin'.

There were a total of 8 articles that directly or indirectly talked about marriage, dating or keeping the family together. It must certainly be a problem for them to harp on it so hard.

Subject: So, by encouraging my older kids to just go "hang out" is breaking the rules?
Date: May 28 14:06
Author: Frtl Mrtl

No offense, but I can see how I wasn't ready to be married when I was their age. I have already counseled my daughter and fiance that they weren't ready, and I'd do it again. She may be 22, but she really ISN'T ready.

My 20 yo, is ready - but doesn't want to get serious. Can't blame him (of course he's not a good choice for the girls 'cuz he refuses to go on a Mission), he has been through a lot with the problems dh and I had over the years.

My 18 yo could be ready...very mature for her age, but she wants to really get to "know" her future partner before she makes the leap of marriage.

My 17 yo says the church is unfair in it's underlying pressure not to date until you're 16, but be married by the time you turn 18. IF you go to school, or work, you can't get to know the other person well enough, and that's IF you ONLY date one person in the two years. Sure, you can quickly figure out who the real jerks are, but finding the "right" guy is a problem, especially if no one asks you out (she refuses to ask out the guys, saying, why bother, the ones she would be interested in still have to go on a mission).

So...."hanging out" seems like a viable option to me, and gosh, like it's been pointed out in other posts...the church used to encourage "hanging out" so you wouldn't get into "moral troubles".

My husband was a student at BYU when Oaks was the president there. Dh says Oaks caused him to loose his testimony back then, because Oaks is such a prick.

Subject: Regarding Oaks
Date: May 28 14:23

Mail Address: 
I've never met the guy, but seeing him and listening to him speak in my TBM days, I never once got the sense or feeling that he was "spiritual" at all. He came across as a bit arrogant, someone speaking down to all the rabble. Now I can see that he is indeed, as your husband describes, just a prick.

As for "hanging out", you're right. The cult changes their "direction" and policies as the wind blows. I always thought it funny how they would change back and forth on things such as having ethnically segregated wards or making everyone simply meet together. If God is indeed steering the ship, then wouldn't he know what would work best? Can't you just see God up in heaven talking to Jesus and Peter, et al, saying "Gee, that didn't work. How about if we have them try this?"

"The brethren" have no more principles than any other politicians. Their m.o. is "How can we spin this to our advantage?"

Subject: I think this is kind of funny. . .
Date: May 29 20:03
Author: JoAnn

I haven't subscribed to the Ensign in years (how many of YOU have???) and yet, here we are, just as conversant with what's being printed in it as if we were good little TBM's!!! (I was telling my formerly TBM hubby about this particular article, and he was amazed that we ex-mos keep up with such stuff!)

I am profoundly grateful that we (ex-mos) are no longer in the mental and emotional trap of having to take such garbage seriously.

Subject: It started with Eve...
Date: May 29 21:01
Author: Daniel Skidmore

It seems that God set things up specifically in order to have the entire "Fall" of man be the fault of women. These church leaders are just continuing in God's holy tradition of blaming women for everything!

It's funny how they can't blame the guys for not having the guts to ask girls out in the first place (that's the way it was in my ward)! That Oaks guy has an acorn for a brain!

Subject: Re: Oaks lays blame at women's feet in Ensign article
Date: May 29 21:12
Author: cl2

I think I've said this before, but when I was in a singles' ward over 22 years ago, a local M.D. and stake president came to talk at a fireside. He told we women to take showers, curl our hair, shave our legs . . . as if we made ourselves attractive, then we would then be able to catch a guy. The automatic assumption about older unmarried females is that it is "our fault" and we must be "losers." All he had to do was take a look around at the women in the room . . . and the loser guys. All the women were very well groomed and sharp--too sharp for what was left to pick from.

As for hanging out--when did guys in singles' wards ask girls out on dates? The ones that seemed okay would once in a blue moon and then if they didn't get a revelation directly from God on the date, then they never asked you out again.

I "hung out" with 2 different guys for 2 years each at least (remember, this was 22 years ago). I ended up marrying my gay husband. One of the above 2 guys worked at the same place I did. One of the other coworkers asked him why he hadn't snatched me up and he said, "Because so and so beat me to her." I had know this guy for almost 5 years before I met my gay husband . . .

This isn't a new problem and it certainly ISN'T the women's problem.

Subject: "hanging out" the new sin.
Date: May 29 17:23
Author: Baura

Oaks excoriates young people for "hanging out" instead of pairing off.

Hmmmm

I recall when the *Brethren* used to emphasize that we should go on "group dates" (what they used to call "hanging out") rather than paring off. The idea was that when the two of you are alone . . . well, you know.

Now "group dates" (or "hanging out") are a bad thing. That's why we need living prophets since morality keeps changing again and again. Without them to tell us right from wrong we'd have to rely on what was right or wrong before.

Every day I wake up and say to myself, "I wonder what is right and wrong today?"

Subject: Re: "hanging out" the new sin.
Date: May 29 17:30
Author: lightfingerlouie

Could be that the earring thing will change, and women will be required to have more than one in each ear.

It is nice to have our sins defined for us. So many sins, really. I recall learning--in seminary--that overeating on Thanksgiving was a sin.
Can you imagine how that sin would be compounded by someone wearing two earrings, and hanging out with family-- after eating too much?

Oaks has always been one to tell us about correct conduct, particularly after the brilliant and ethical way he handled the Hoffman affair. He was a beacon of integrity during that press conference. Yes indeed. I have never forgotten it.

Subject: But Baura, how could you even think about. . .
Date: May 29 20:27
Author: JoAnn

leaving the church when that's who tells you what's the latest "Sin of the Day?" How could you hope to stay current without this deathless guidance??

Subject: What a great idea! It's the "RFM Sin of the Day"!
Date: May 29 20:49
Author: Tyson Dunn

Today's sin is:

dwarf-tossing [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_tossing ]

Included in this sin:

tossing, throwing, bouncing, hurling, passing, spiking, or thwacking any person of below-average stature for their age

Excluded from this sin:

giant-tossing
tossing off (but see: Beating the bishop)
salad tossing
tossing children
tossing cats (with or without prejudice)
dwarf trapeze artistry

Absolution includes:

praying the rosary, but no Hail Mary's

Tyson

Subject: It is nothing short of Orwellian!
Date: May 29 20:54
Author: Daniel Skidmore

It reminds me of Animal Farm. When you get a cult-like leadership structure, the best way to do things changes every other day. This is common in Communist systems when there is always a new way to do things, depending on who is at the top and how badly the last plan failed.

Subject: Exactly.
Date: May 29 22:48
Author: Dagny

Last month it was:
Single date baaaaaaad. Group date goooooood.

Now it's:
Group date baaaaaaad. Single date gooooood.

It wouldn't be do darned annoying if they would come out and say, "You know, we have advised you in the past to be in groups, but we're finding kids aren't getting married as much. So, now we are going to change that and advise you to avoid hanging around in groups. Sometimes we don't predict the consequences of things very well and change our minds."

But no. They act like they never advised anything different and no one remembers anything! Orwell could not have been more spot on.

Subject: let me see if I have this right .............................
Date: May 29 23:02
Author: around

as per the church

pre mission" Group activities aka "Hanging out" is better than dating. NO pairing off! emphasis on group activity if we have to tolerate any mingling between the sexes.

After mission PAIR OFF! Hanging out is bad! DATE DATE DATE so you can MARRY MARRY MARRY, so you can WORK WORK WORK to pay tithing, house payment and have kids to further the work of the lord with out a second left to waste/"hang out"

Subject: Re: This shows what a dirty mind I have, but is it possible (adult)
Date: May 30 01:16
Author: bona dea

A local TV station did a story on this very thing a few years ago. the title was something about sex and Mormon teenagers. The reporters were surprised that kids under 16 who had never dated and who were just hanging out were having sex in alarming numbers. I think the church thinks that kids under 18 should hang out and that if they aren't paired up they won't have sex and that at 18 you should immediately start looking for your eternal companion. You wouldn't want to be an old maid at 20 or 21. Anyone think they are slightly out of touch

Subject: Oy
Date: May 30 00:02
Author: Leah (Language)

You guys are missing the point.

Oaks is trying to tell members, ever so delicately, that the church as a whole is not producing more tithe payers for the cult.

Now pair up already and go ye forth and multiply.

Subject: how could I have forgotten.......................
Date: May 30 00:08
Author: around

what ever it is! that I/we are doing............... ITS WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!