Subject:

Subject:	Feeling the Love
Date:	Aug 01, 2005
Author:	Simon Southerton
Note:	Simon attended his Mormon Court of Love on Sunday July 31^st, 2005 in Australia. The local Mormon authorities hold courts on members that have sinned and dole out punishment.. This court is presided over by the stake president, his two councilors and the 12 members of the high council who are high priests. These are all lay positions. These men have regular jobs, are usually married and have moved up in rank in the local Mormon hierarchy. The stake president and high council preside over a stake ( a collection of local congregations) that in total average 3000 members. The phrase, Court of Love, is commonly used in Mormon circles.

DNA and the Book of Mormon. Read the article in the USA Today. The story that Dr. Simon Southerton submitted to us as to why he left Mormonism due to DNA evidence is at whyleft125.htm along with information on his book. A little background to this court is at Mormon406.

Hi Folks

I just wanted to let you know the outcome of the Disciplinary Council. I apologize that has taken a while. Today was pretty hectic.

I was excommunicated for “having an inappropriate relationship with a woman” when I was a member of the church, married and a priesthood holder. The meeting went for 3 hours. It was in a small room and it stank by the end of the whole exercise. I spoke to them for about 1.5 hrs; my wife was in there with me for about 10 minutes of that time. They deliberated for the rest of the time. The entire meeting was cordial and the council followed the usual process.

I was not excommunicated for adultery. They did not have evidence to support that charge. They attempted to get evidence this week but were unsuccessful. It was clear that someone connected with either family has pressed for the case to go to a disciplinary council. Each family is now left to wonder who this person was, as the Stake President would not disclose this information. We must protect the gossip mongerer.

When I was invited to respond to the allegations, I refused to discuss my private life with these men. I challenged the Stake President about the appropriateness of prying into family relationships in order to deal with me. What was to be gained by the church interfering now when the events they are so obsessed with occurred almost 2 years ago and for the last 6 months both relationships have been healing? I have been back with my wife for almost 8 months and the other couple is doing likewise.

The Stake President denied that they were avoiding the issue of apostasy and that the charge they were investigating was more important. I seriously question this claim. I am convinced that they were intent on avoiding a council on the charge of apostasy. I was clearly instructed before the meeting that if I attempted to talk about “DNA” and my apostasy that the council would be immediately shut down and that it would be completed in my absence. I respected their request (foolish me) but told them that it was very difficult to defend my integrity against their charges if I couldn’t give good reason why I didn’t believe in the claims of the church anymore. I also told them that it was extremely unusual for the church to pursue someone who hadn’t had anything to do with the church for the last 7 years. In my 10 years on numerous bishoprics, I never observed this.

I strongly challenged the council of 15 men about their motives. I asked if alleged misconduct over 2 years ago between separated adults was more serious than the charge of public apostasy for the last 6 years. There is clear evidence that I am doing my best to heal the relationships with my wife and family but I have given no signs of stopping my apostasy. I was stunned when members of the council assured me that the alleged “inappropriate relationship” was more important than the apostasy. I then quoted from the LDS General Handbook of Instructions where it says that a DC MUST be held for apostasy and MAY be held for adultery. I am confident that there are thousands of Mormon bishops and Stake Presidents who would strongly disagree with the entire council on this issue. Clearly they were set on the path to excommunication regardless of anything I said and the route they took to achieve the objective.

I suggested the Stake President consider calling the council off and to hold another council on the rather obvious charge of apostasy. I said that I was quite prepared to make this a painless process because I could not deny the obvious evidence of apostasy that is plain for all to see. Clearly, I was wasting my breath.

After reading out the decision of the court I asked the Stake President if he had been instructed by his superiors to carry out this council and he denied this. I am inclined to believe him. I think he was absolutely determined from the outset that I was going to be excommunicated. If he called off the council he would have looked a fool and everyone else risked letting the President down if they questioned the appropriateness of the decision.

A kangaroo court in kangaroo country

Simon

Subject:	Disappointed but not Surprised
Date:	Aug 01 11:50
Author:	Sarony

Dear Simon,

Your proceedings and excommunication were supposed to be inspired by Jesus of Nazereth?

Otherwise, I am speechless.

Sarony

Subject:	Well said, Sarony.
Date:	Aug 01 13:45
Author:	Disgusted

You're right on! I consider myself a Christian, although I don't always take scripture literally....but, my gosh, have these people read the New Testament?? I think it's evident they were inspired by the Pharisees who manipulated their bogus "blasphemy" charges into something else so that they could more easily get the Romans to carry out crucifixion.

The actions taken by this council (supposedly commissioned by God) could not be more transparent! Slime ball tactics!!

Subject:	Just one question
Date:	Aug 01 11:59
Author:	JohnTheFred

After being away from the church for so long, why did you even bother to attend the kangaroo court? Why not just let them ex you (which they were going to do no matter what) by proxy.

I have often wondered if a DC is ever held for me if I would attend. Part of me would like to be there to see it and yet another part of says who cares what they do.

So are congats in order? You are officially out of TSCC now!

Subject:	The way I understand these "courts of love', ....
Date:	Aug 01 12:45
Author:	Bob

aren't you supposed to have some members of the council designated to speak in your behalf? Did this occur, and, if so, what was said in your behalf? Or, was it just a lynch mob out to get you.

You have my best wishes, Simon. You are a very courageous individual whom we all admire.

Subject:	We are glad to hear back from you,Simon ...
Date:	Aug 01 12:00
Author:	Skunk Puppet

There were a lot of board watchers over the past 24 hours wanting to see if you would post about your experience.

How odd to be excommunicated for an "inappropriate relationship" with another person but not for "adultery" !!!
Is that just church newspeak?

Also, the disciplinary court members showed their cowardice by essentially giving you a gag order beforehand over the DNA issue.

The outcome of your "kangaroo court of love" was determined from the outset and these fellows were just going thru the motions. The most important thing is that now church leaders can smugly dismiss your book "Losing a Lost Tribe" by saying it was written by a guy who got excommunicated.

Sorry you and your wife had to go thru such an ordeal. I am glad it is over for you and hope you both heal from this charade.

Skunkie

Subject:	UN-believable!
Date:	Aug 01 12:01
Author:	Ken Taylor

Simon,
Since I, too, had "dual" reasons for the "court of love" held in my honor several years ago, I can understand your frustration with your (former) church leaders.
My wife (at the time) was the main witness against me in accusing me of homosexual behavior.
But MANY years before my "court of love" took place, she and I had numerous discussions about the veracity of the LDS claims. Eventually I came to realize that the LDS church is not what it claims to be, and that my local leaders had no real "authority" over me in any way.
I did not attend my "court of love" and simply received notice of excommunication by letter delivered to me by my wife.
Well before these proceedings, I realized that I did not owe any explanation about my personal life to anyone, and would not allow them to pressure me into anything, including attending the "court of love."
It sounds like you already are at that point - your personal life is just that - personal. And it's no one else's business except yours and your spouse's.
I wish you and your wife well as you pursue whatever paths you choose. It seemed quite liberating for me to be free of the shackles of membership. I hope it will be for you too.

Subject:	At least your done with them
Date:	Aug 01 12:10
Author:	okgivens

The lesson here is that you can't trust anyone with ecclesiastical authority in the LDS Church. You can't confess to them, reason with them, etc. No wonder 70% of the membership is inactive. Be happy you are done with them -- they would have never listened to the results of the scholarship on DNA in any event. In a way they are simply cowards, afraid to face reality.

Subject:	15 men? 15 men sat in "judgment" on 1?
Date:	Aug 01 12:18
Author:	Nightingale

That would seem to be overkill for such a watered-down "sin".

I thought "apostasy" was right up there on the sin-seriousness scale, next to "grieving the Holy Ghost" (that some would say is the one unforgivable sin).

So let me get this straight: you can publicly refute the church's theological claims and still be a member in good standing? But you cannot conduct your private life as an adult with free will, in extenuating circumstances, without causing a (long-delayed) church court proceeding?

What scriptural principle/church teaching supports this approach I'm wondering.

I understand your desire to discuss the scientific material, that is more pertinent, Simon, rather than the personal details, which are not. Looks like they neatly sidestepped that minefield.

I'm sorry they found a way to muddy the waters and try to malign your character. How very dishonest of them.

But, unfortunately, this is not surprising, given the church in question.

I'm glad it's over, one way or the other, for you and your family. In light of their preemptive strike, looks like your publications will have to just speak for themselves to readers, including any TBMs who can still manage to see different viewpoints and think things through.

But, truth can do that. Speak for it. They can throw mud at you all they want but they can't refute the science. Do you think they've ever heard of Galileo?

Thanks for keeping in touch with the board at such a time for you. All the best to you.

Subject:	I can only imagine the self-righteous satisfaction they are enjoying.
Date:	Aug 01 12:25
Author:	Shakey

They had to have the "Council" on a subjective matter they can decide by their authority.

I'm sure they thought Jesus was they’re guiding them.

Shakey

Subject:	Thoughts are with you...
Date:	Aug 01 12:26
Author:	Served In Oz

Simon,

Having served in the Canberra area for many months, I am very familiar with some of the men that sat in judgment over you. I feel very disappointed that they didn't have the balls to hold the court based on the subject of your book (an excellent book by the way). I do not want to come to their defense, but I feel the need to add that they are probably in a very difficult situation with a lot of pressure coming from upstairs.

The Canberra Stake is hardly your typical LDS stake in the true sense. But the church wants to look good in the Australian Capitol and thus pushed prematurely for the creation of the Canberra Stake. It consists of I believe only 3-4 small wards and a few very small branches. It is not unusual for those on the High Council to also hold other callings. Home teaching assignments usually have 10-15 families (impossible numbers...spread throughout a several mile area) But god bless em...somehow these good people pull it off against impossible conditions.

It is SO impossibly hard to be a Mormon in Australia. As a TBM missionary even I was overwhelmed with the sacrifices that the church placed on these wonderful people.

Simon, I feel in my heart (call it a spiritual prompting) that some good will come from all of this. Hearts and eyes will be opened...the truth will come out. Thanks for standing on the side of difficult truth.

I used to eat Sunday tea with the family of the wife of a member of the current stake presidency...they were such wonderful people...they I hear have now fallen into inactivity and I hear the father was exed also.

Just for the record, I too have sat through extremely difficult church courts as both bishopric member and on the high council....as you know....most times it is the SP that is pushing the agenda.

Best of luck... as a true EXMO....

Subject:	Pompous-ass guys
Date:	Aug 01 12:34
Author:	Glo

holding an imaginary priesthood in an insignificant 'church' which is not even accepted by other Christian churches. Who cares what they do or think.

Small people, small minds. This cult is going nowhere fast.

PS
I enjoyed your book

Subject:	They didn't dare excommunicate you for your book...
Date:	Aug 01 12:42
Author:	Zap "em

Your book reveals hard scientific fact! If you were kicked out for stating facts, they would put themselves in the position of not being able to defend themselves without using the argument that "He offended the church by speaking scientifically established truth!"

How would that look to the world?

Salt Lake City thought that one over for a split second and instructed the local leadership to not even let DNA and your book enter the picture. But...

"Hah! We've got him on something ELSE!" The GA's said, "We're off the hook! Sure it's flimsy by church precedence, but it will stick with the public and the press!"

Subject:	Lieing pieces of crap
Date:	Aug 01 12:58
Author:	reaking of brew

Who ever heard of calling a 7 year inactive member in for a court?

I think it is now time for every inactive member who has sex outside of marriage to have a court called and be ex'd. Heck, that would clear the rolls real quick (and show that Christ like love).

Heck, I served in a branch presidency here on the east coast a few years ago and the other councilor was single and was boinking a girl repeatedly. She got pregnant, he was released, but no court was held.

Courts DO NOT have to be held for adultery unless the person is in a "high" calling, like bishop, patriarch, GA, etc. This stake president needs to reread his HOI.

-ROB

Subject:	Thank you Simon!
Date:	Aug 01 13:19
Author:	Donna Banta

Dear Simon,

Thanks for sharing this with us. Amazing that they ex-ed you for an "inappropriate relationship." That's a new one, I must say. I can just imagine these creepy guys trolling around last week to get "evidence."--Anything they could conjure, true or false, in order to back up the standard excuse. We all know that in TBM bizarre-world people only leave the church for two reasons: 1. To commit sin. 2. Because they were offended.

BTW, I hope you weren't offended by any of this! LOL

Mark and I also loved your book. Thank you for that as well.

Subject:	“Having an inappropriate relationship with a woman” seems arbitrary and
Date:	Aug 01 13:40
Author:	Dane

certainly challengeable. I don't know what the laws are down under but if a person wanted to cause things to sting a bit more for TSCC and string things out, one might consider getting a barrister (lawyer) and challenge the weak and indefensible position that the 'court of love' took.

It may be that you feel you have prodded and pushed as much as you care to and that is certainly fine. You do, at some point, want to get WAY beyond all of this but if you can look at the humorous side and enjoy mixing the pot a bit more, milking it for all it is worth... I think you have the goods to do so.

I wish the best for you in your present rank (that which most of us share) of being OUT of the grime. Do you feel a lightening of the Spirit?

Love you Simon and thank you! I salute you for your tenacity, integrity and being the wonderful person you are!

Subject:	I know this isn't how you wanted to exit BUT...
Date:	Aug 01 13:46
Author:	Jessica Truax

WELCOME to the ranks of apostates anyway!

Jessica

Subject:	Thank You For Letting Us Know, My Friend . . . When I First Met You and Will Bagley . . .
Date:	Aug 01 14:34
Author:	SL Cabbie

And Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Richard Packham, Randy Jordan, and Cricket (and a ton of other locals, all at the '02 Exmo Conference), I realized I was being afforded the privilege of walking with intellectual giants who had learned to see things much as I had and even further . . .

Nothing much to add . . . I hope the experience wasn't too painful for you, and particularly for your wife . . .

I don't think those yayhoos have much of a clue about how their actions affect others.

I'll be in touch,

SLC

Subject:	Those cowards!
Date:	Aug 01 14:37
Author:	Dagny

They just HAD to dig up something, anything, to get rid of the troublemaker.

They didn't have the guts to confront the real problem: The information you have about DNA and the church.

They'll do anything to nail an intellectual with a moral "sin" so they don't have to acknowledge the subject of doctrine problems in public. Those political cowards. They do this every time they can get away with it.

I'm sorry you went. They do not deserve the privilege of prying around in your personal life as they try to put you down. They needed a reason to tell the other sheep why you had to go, because if they said it was your book, people would read it and know they are covering up.

I'm convinced more than ever we should not give them their presumed power by even attending their little witch-hunts.

I'm glad you are OK. Thanks so much for letting us know.

Subject:	Insincere men on a power trip.
Date:	Aug 01 14:41
Author:	javanorm

Pretty much the story of the Morg, isn't it?

Best wishes as you move on from this.

Subject:	Weak! Exed with a charge even LESS than adultery. Just goes to show...
Date:	Aug 01 15:13
Author:	rmw

That the LDS church is running scared. We all know what they're objective was. Taking a guy who's been inactive for years and who years earlier had an "inappropriate relationship" with another woman and bring him before a court and ex him is almost to the point of being humorous. They'd be exing people right and left in my area if they did that.

All this does is reinforce how manipulative, deceitful and cowardly the LDS church is . . . and has been since its organization in 1830. Personally, I think this may backfire on TSCC. Fence sitters who see this type of treatment by their "church" may just get fed up with it and leave.

Thanks for the report. One weight lifted off. Wish you the best.

Subject:	Thanks for falling on your sword.
Date:	Aug 01 16:01
Author:	FeelingOfFreedom

I have to admit that I had trouble understanding why you let them put you through all of this. I've read that you wanted to put pressure on TSCC to change, but it seemed like a high price to pay.

After watching all of this drama unfold, I think I understand your motives a lot better. You've forced them to come out from behind their facades and unambiguously show their manipulative, hypocritical faces so everyone can see them clearly for what they are. You've also motivated many of us to get off the sidelines and take a more active role.

I applaud you for your courage.

Subject:	My condolences and congratulations
Date:	Aug 01 16:27
Author:	exmojo

Simon,

Condolences for not being allowed to state your case against the church. Condolences for not being allowed to face your accuser. Condolences for undergoing the frustration of participate in the kangaroo court on their terms knowing full well the real reasons. Condolences for being tried by a church that hides behind "the lord inspires them" rather than applying consistency in their court of love process and sentencing.

Congratulations for helping many people realize that this is NOT god's church. Congratulations for being formally an ex-Mormon.

What is your wife going to do now? Resign? What are you going to do now? I would love to see newspaper articles and radio interviews about how the church abused the court "system" to convict you and how it is clear that they singled you out for this treatment. This would make great press.

You have my respect and gratitude.

Michael

PS: I read your book Saturday afternoon -- time very well spent.

Subject:	Simon, print a new dust jacket for your book updating your personal situation. n/t
Date:	Aug 01 16:34
Author:	Me again

Subject:	Question about procedure
Date:	Aug 01 16:40
Author:	Skeptical

Simon:

What did the high counselors assigned to ensure your rights say in your behalf? I would be curious to know?

Thanks

Subject:	Another thought for you to consider
Date:	Aug 01 16:49
Author:	Skeptical

Simon:

It seems very obvious that the stake president went at great lengths to prevent your court from being about apostasy. His comments to you that should DNA be brought up, you would be excused and that the court would be held in absentia would indicate to me that either he had given the matter great thought or had been instructed on how to proceed in order to avoid the apostasy issue and thus deprive you have any public comment regarding the church's punishment of intellectuals who refuse to follow the party line. Score a success for your former stake president (Unfortunately).

However, it would also seem to me that there was insufficient basis or evidence to terminate your membership based on improper relations. I know that adultery is usually an automatic excommunication for high profile members, but I would think that improper relationships outside of marriage would be tenuous. Have you considered appealing the court for public relation purposes? It would make the church look ridiculous that it had excommunicated you for less than adultery. Any thoughts?

Subject:	Any chance of a list of the 15 men and their mailing addresses? N/T
Date:	Aug 01 17:44
Author:	James Clifford Miller

Subject:	Simon, you should consider an appeal this ruling
Date:	Aug 01 18:11
Author:	Spirit of Radio

The way I understand it, you are allowed to appeal this decision. The "inappropriate relationship" charge does not merit excommunication. You know it and they know it.

If you had not written your book, they would not have exed you on this charge alone. It is clear that they factored in the apostasy, yet made no allowances for you to address that issue.

This is clearly a case that needs to be appealed! They need to justify why they raised the bar so high for you since you are not in a high profile leadership position and weren't at the time of the alleged sin.

No other member would have, nor should have, been exed for this. If they have been in the past, they too should have appealed.

This is an injustice! You were exed for writing your book, not for an "inappropriate relationship"!

Appeal Simon, Appeal!

Subject:	Re: Simon, you should consider an appeal this ruling
Date:	Aug 01 18:32
Author:	Gator

Thanks Simon ! You have offered an example of courage for me. You stood and fought the dragon where I could not have. I hope your wife will handle this well and follow you out formally. I don't think the church knows how much influence people like you have on us fence sitters.

Did they have someone represent you ?

Is it possible to appeal ? What is the process ?

I can't ever remember hearing of an appeal. I would like to see the precedent set here. This would be a good case.

Subject:	WTF?????!!!!!!
Date:	Aug 01 18:18
Author:	*Breakin' Blls**

"The Stake President denied that they were avoiding the issue of apostasy and that the charge they were investigating was more important."

And here I'd been taught that APOSTASY is the ONE unpardonable sin dooming the apostate to (cue sci fi music and reverb) OUTER DARKNESS! I wish these bullying wankers would get their facts straight!!

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