Mormon Missionaries and Immigration Fraud

Subject:	Passport and Immigration Fraud and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 06 14:28 2005
Author:	Lothar

My bro-in-law just returned from a Mormon mission in Singapore, Indonesia, and some other countries. The reason they have several countries is because the countries in question do not allow clergy visas. (Like they had for Japan, and other foreign countries). The reason for this is because local laws do not allow missionaries to proselytize.

Now, the church leaders give each missionary a cover story to get into the country "I am visiting friends".

Each missionary is then responsible to get through customs. If a missionary is caught, they are deported from the country, and banned from entering for at least 1 year.

I asked how he was able to justify lying like this, and he said that it wasn't lying, as he actually did have friends in the country.

I then told him that the fact of the matter is, his purpose for being in the country was to proselytize, and teach people about the church, and that however he sugar coated it, it was still lying. He responded that he was just doing what he was told, and that if it were wrong, then it would be on the head of the mission president.

I didn't push him any farther because he was getting noticeably upset about it. I am going to talk to him again, and see if I can get him to recognize another problem I found with this, (In addition to the international customs fraud). That is the utter lack of faith exhibited by the leadership.

The leadership is coercing its missionaries to break one of the big ten "Thou shall not bear false witness", but also, has no faith in the power of the holy ghost to soften the hearts of the people to allow one of his emissaries in to preach his gospel.

I'm looking forward to the gymnastics.

Subject:	Mormon dishonesty abounds.
Date:	Jun 06 14:48
Author:	Cheryl

This is a prime example. Clearly, the "intent of this policy is to deceive." That's the definition of lying.

I think the intent of "milk before meat" is also clearly to deceive. Mishies are forced to hide facts that "investigators" are trying to discover. I'm sure practically no one would ever join if they knew the full story about callings, the temple, polygamy in heaven, garments etc. etc. etc.

Not fully answering questions and withholding vital information from investigators and converts is lying. Those who do this are made to be liars. That includes all mishies and members. Me too because that's what I used to do as a member. I lied, like Mormons are expected to do.

Subject:	Re: dishonesty
Date:	Jun 06 15:04
Author:	LikesBrightColors

Hypocrisy everywhere you look.

"We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies."

- Gospel Principles

Subject:	Re: dishonesty
Date:	Jun 06 15:15
Author:	Lothar

Excellent LBC!

I found the entire quote on LDS.org:

"To Lie Is Dishonest
Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when he was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage."

Subject:	Then there's a little thing called the 12th Article of Faith
Date:	Jun 06 15:45
Author:	Stray Mutt

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Subject:	He responded that he was just doing what he was told, and that if it was wrong, then it would be on the head of the mission president.
Date:	Jun 06 15:09
Author:	wrighton

Doesn't that contradict an LDS article of faith where Mormons claim to be responsible for their own sins?

Subject:

Yes, & it also sounds like the defense Nazi war criminals tried to use.nt

Subject:	I wonder if I should write a letter to the head of the church
Date:	Jun 06 15:17
Author:	Lothar

and find out if he is aware of the goings on over there.

Subject:	Re: I wonder if I should write a letter to the head of the church
Date:	Jun 06 17:45
Author:	Glo

You're wasting your time. Church leadership knows exactly what's going on where.

I remember some years ago there was a write-up in the Ensign where it was mentioned that the LDS church always goes in through the front door, NEVER behind a government’s back. Well, I guess we can scratch that too now.

Deceptive CULT.

Subject:	Yep, I had to do it on my mission
Date:	Jun 06 15:27
Author:	AKexmo

This might have changed but 10 years ago when I went to Mongolia I did not go as a representative of the church. Oh no, I worked for "Deseset International Charities."

We were told leaving the MTC to take our nametags off before the flight to China and not to put them back on again until we reached the mission office in Mongolia. Even still, I have an awesome picture of me looking very much like a Mormon missionary (nametag and all) at Tiananmen (sp?) Square standing in front of a huge portrait of Chairman Mao.

I never actually had to lie about my purpose though - we all had jobs set-up as English teachers and that’s all we had to say about it. But, our paperwork did say Deseret International Charities AND we were told to only refer to that organization and not the church if we were asked.

Subject:	We were told to tell people we were students
Date:	Jun 06 15:35
Author:	awakeinoc

I went on my mission at the end of 1982 to Mexico. When we went to the Mexican consulate in SLC we were told to take off our name tags and to tell them we were going there as students. We were also told that we were not allowed to wear our name tags in Mexico and to NOT carry our official church card indicating we were missionaries. It always scared me to death when I'd get on a bus and the Mexican military, sporting there guns, got on the bus.
I never did get harrassed by them.
I actually wound up getting transferred back to the states because my visa ran out and they started kicking missionaries out.
BTW, it was illegal at the time for any religion to send missionaries in to Mexico to proselyte. So much for being subject to kings, presidents, magistrates. (Forgive my spelling).

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 06 15:40
Author:	Cats

We were allowed after a moratorium on missionaries to enter as "tourists." There were lots of anti-American sentiments. Funny, I thought it was a scam at the time and probably led to my thinking the mission was more of a joke than a real effort to do anything good.

Subject:	My brother in law served in the same mission.
Date:	Jun 06 16:23
Author:	No name for now

I remember him telling us about the same dishonest tactics to get into the countries. My in-laws all seemed to think it was clever of the church, I sat silently appalled with what I was hearing. Wish I had had enough nerve to say something.

He started his mission in 1999.

Subject:	If you have first-hand knowledge of such practices, drop a dime on them.
Date:	Jun 06 17:23
Author:	Concrete Zipper

Send a calm, concise letter, which lays out the facts to the relevant embassy. If you speak the language, send a translated copy of the letter to the editor of a major newspaper in their capital city.

Governments do not like to be lied to, especially in this age of high border security. The squeakier the wheel, the more like it is to get greased.

CZ

Subject:	Re: If you have first-hand knowledge of such practices, drop a dime on them.
Date:	Jun 06 17:49
Author:	Lothar

I had considered doing this, but the problem is, it would be the missionaries who would bear the responsibility. I'd hate to have an incarcerated missionary on my conscience. What's amazing is that they give the missionaries a letter that tells them how to get through the gates. I haven't seen the letter first-hand, but my brother in law has mentioned it.

Subject:	If there is a letter...
Date:	Jun 06 18:31
Author:	anon for this one

If there is a letter and the missionaries are caught while going through customs and their bags are searched...the organization will be responsible, the missionary would only be charged with a minor offense and it would probably get thrown back to the American courts and thrown out in Utah somewhere...I would suggest you get a copy of that letter and get it to the correct people at the consulates around the world.

Subject:	Remember John D. Lee?
Date:	Jun 06 18:49
Author:	scapegoat

The church will make another scapegoat if pressed. It happened in the past and it will happen again. The church will claim that the deceptive tactics were a local matter and so on.

The church didn't survive the MMM, Paul Dunn, Mark Hoffman, and the Book of Abraham without learning a few things. I'm sure that a plan has been laid in case they get busted (or bad press) about their deceptive missionary tactics.

Subject:	Incarceration is highly unlikely.
Date:	Jun 06 19:00
Author:	Concrete Zipper

It would cause too much backlash with the U.S. state department where the church has pull. The worst that would happen is that the mishies would get kicked out of the country.

If you have the info, please send the letter.

CZ (who had a perfectly legal visa on his mission)

Subject:	I'd also tell the Missionary department
Date:	Jun 06 20:02
Author:	alex

I'd suggest "spilling the beans" on your letter to the Missionary department too if you are that concerned about the mishies. I think that CZ's suggestion on unlikelihood of imprisonment is correct.

Subject:	It comes from the top....Boyd K. Packer got entry documents for Saudi Arabia
Date:	Jun 06 18:07
Author:	Helen

Boyd K. Packer did the same thing in Saudi Arabia. Mormon employees of ARAMCO obtained necessary entry documents for Boyd K. Packer and another elder in the First Quorum of the Seventy who officially (and falsely) entered the country as "consultants" to the oil company. Unknown to the Saudis, the Mormon leaders had really come to dedicate the first Stake in that country. And the attitude of the Brethren in Salt Lake was: "What the Saudis don't find out, won't hurt them."

See chapter 2 of The Darker Side of Virtue - Corruption, Scandal and the Mormon Empire by Anson Shupe

Subject:	Re: It comes from the top....Boyd K. Packer got entry documents for Saudi Arabia
Date:	Jun 07 02:30
Author:	Rebel Scholar

Helen,

Do you know if the government of Saudi Arabia finds out about this situation, they will totally flip out. Sadly, I can see Bin Laden going on Al-Jeezera and condemning Mormons for desecrating the Muslim holy land. He could very will declare open season on all Mormons!!! OMG, the arrogance of this act staggers me. Missionary work in Saudi Arabia could very well be punishable by death in that country. Great, if terrorist activity starts occurring in the corridor, I'll know who to thank.

Subject:	Rebel Scholar, the Saudis did find out
Date:	Jun 07 10:54
Author:	Helen

“As in the American home mission program, detailed records of contacts were kept by the Mormons. As converts were baptized and assumed ward responsibilities, organizational charts were drawn up.

But the Saudis did find out. They learned about the home meetings, and then they discovered the records.

At the branch president’s home the police took possession of an organizational chart of the entire stake leadership down to the ward and branch officers. With that they proceeded to track down every man on the list.

Dozens of missionary leaders were deported back to the United States and other countries.

In 1986 the Church dispatched David Kennedy to meet Saudi government officials. Kennedy technically went to Saudi Arabia as a representative of a group called the American-Arab Council (of which the LDS Church is a strong supporter). But his real task was to smooth out the Church’s jeopardized relations with the Saudis and see what could be salvaged of the mission in that country. Kennedy was ultimately successful, but ever after both Arabs and Mormons were more cautious about each other."

The Darker Side of Virtue by Anson Shupe pages 32, 33

Subject:	Re: Rebel Scholar, the Saudis did find out
Date:	Jun 08 03:30
Author:	Rebel Scholar

Helen,

Thanks for following up on that issue for me. I'm glad it happened in the 80's before Bin Laden. However, I wonder if the church is arrogant and/or stupid enough to try it again. If they are that dumb, that means bad things are coming down the road for people who live in the corridor. It sad that it is church policy to perpetuate immigration fraud to get just a few more converts. Oh well, it is a cult.

Subject:

Very interesting...Just good ol' fashioned lyin' for the Lard. N/T

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 06 19:24
Author:	beaconhillguy

Why I find infuriating about this is that I am sure I have heard General Authorities talk about how the church always enters a country through the front door, i.e. in compliance with the law. Of course, I suppose that they would argue that technically they do "comply with the law". Ah, yes, technicalities. It's a wonderful world when the best we can do is get by on technicalities.

Whatever happened to the spirit of the sermon on the mount?

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 06 19:26
Author:	beaconhillguy

What I meant to say was "WHAT I find infuriating..."

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 07 02:42
Author:	Rikitikitembo

Loyalty over truth has always been a prerequisite to being a good Mormon. Other ones are duty over peace; principle over relationship. These are the things that mess with your mind.

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 07 03:10
Author:	calm down

the church is only doing this so it can save all those poor souls that sinned in the pre earth life from their dark skin curse. if it weren't fer so many red necked Utahans spreading the word, what ya recken would happen to those colored folk??

the great thing about an RM is that they think they know (and of course the ward treats them like) they want to some savage country to save the natives, and that the new RM is an expert in every facet of the country (hey, I thought this same thing)!

Subject:	Re: Passport, and Customs Fraud, and the Mormon missionary program
Date:	Jun 07 03:31
Author:	kryptonite

Not only is this act stupid, in certain countries it can be outright dangerous for mishies. There are just some countries out there that aren’t so much concerned with human rights and will harm people... what if a mishie gets caught... can anyone see them getting tortured for a few hours pending on country?

And somehow I get the sick feeling if a mishie is incarcerated they will be forgotten and no one will come to their rescue... deny all evidence that the mishie exists to save their own asses.

Subject:	PERFECT for letters to the editor
Date:	Jun 07 11:21
Author:	KathyWUT

This topic would be perfect for letters to the editor, especially to the Salt Lake Tribune and to the Deseret News. "Committing immigration fraud because of fervent religious beliefs is OK according to the Mormon church."

Some of you must feel like writing some letters, right? They're certainly easy to send.

If you write a good letter and don't want to send it with YOUR name on it, feel free to send it to me. I don't have the time or energy right now to write a letter myself.

Subject:	I don't usually generalize, but...
Date:	Jun 08 09:50
Author:	dimmesdale

I think I could safely say that ALL MORMON CHURCH "ENGLISH LANGUAGE TRAINING PROGRAMS" in foreign countries are ruses for teaching the LDS gospel.

Even in the US where there are large groups of Spanish speaking people, the church tries this tactic. In our stake there was a big push from the SP to have English speaking classes for local people. But they HAD to be held in the church building and it was preferable to be held in the room where Seminary was taught so that the people would ask and comment on the visual aids left around the classroom.

Little did it matter that the library sponsors a perfectly good English speaking class. They knew about this class (and others), but didn't encourage Spanish speaking people to attend THAT class. The push for a Mormon sponsored class went forward---until the leaders finally realized that nobody had signed up.

Subject:	Re: I don't usually generalize, but...
Date:	Jun 08 09:57
Author:	Lothar

On my mission to Japan, we taught English. We were told not to mention the church in the pamphlets, other then the fact that it was held at the church building. But we were to try and have a "spiritual" message before and after. It was always creepy for me and I would never do it. It seemed so dishonest to pull the old bait and switch on people.

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

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