| Subject: | LD$, Inc. not so business savvy this time - Condo Prices Slashed 50% |
| Date: | Jul 07, 2010 |
| Author: | Farnham |
| Still a year from completion, the landlords at the
COB are already having to slash their condo prices by 50%. Beautifully inspired plan, guys. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/49890045-79/church-units-prices-condos.html.csp But church PR managed to slip in one little LDS'ism, by giving "decreased construction costs" as one reason for the price reduction. They just can't help themselves! More Info from the Salt Lake Tribune the Salt Lake Tribune Updated Jul 8, 2010 10:42AM To cope with the sagging real-estate market, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has lowered prices on a large condo project in its City Creek development in downtown Salt Lake City. Under construction at 35 E. 100 South, The Regent is set for completion in mid- to late 2011. The 20-story project, which will have 150 units, was originally priced starting from around $300,000 to as much as $1.7 million. The church said prices now start in the mid-$100,000s. The condos are part of the massive City Creek development in downtown Salt Lake City, which also will feature retail shops, restaurants, offices and about 100 apartment units. The church’s pricing change didn’t surprise Bill Heiner, president of the Salt Lake Board of Realtors. Seven out of 10 homes sold in May in Salt Lake County were priced under $250,000, he said, adding that demand drops off sharply in the higher price ranges But there’s no mistaking the economic downturn’s impact
on the housing market. Prices for residential real estate, including
single-family homes and condos, are falling in many areas. The median selling
price of condos in Utah’s most populous county was $137,500 in May, down 16
percent from $164,000 in May 2009. |
| Subject: | Re: LD$, Inc. not so business savvy this time |
| Date: | Jul 07 21:32 |
| Author: | Unconventional Ideas |
| People with intelligence, open-minds and big picture
thinking can see what is going on. Joe Bageant's recent essay on waltzing with the corpse of capitalism says it better than anyone I've heard. It's too bad the Mormon leaders were too blind to see the obvious. |
| Subject: | Why "too bad"? |
| Date: | Jul 07 21:34 |
| Author: | Elder Berry |
| Praise the Lord and hope they sink into the salt flats! |
| Subject: | So all the rich TBM's who paid full price are going to take a bath. n/t |
| Subject: | No, they will receive extra special blessings... |
| Date: | Jul 07 22:39 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| ...for sacrificing for the Lord, for showing perfect faith, yadda yadda yadda... |
| Subject: | This is their second bath...tithing to build it was the first. nt |
| Subject: | Re: LD$, Inc. not so business savvy this time |
| Date: | Jul 07 23:12 |
| Author: | Thegentile |
| Decreased construction costs? You're right, they can't help themselves. They were liars and murderers from the beginning- it part of their nature. |
| Subject: | Tax Break Incentive to take a loss? |
| Date: | Jul 07 23:19 |
| Author: | Taddlywog |
| I don't know... just think a drop to half price might have other motivation. I really don't thing they NEED to sell any of that real estate. But if they have nothing to loose (because they tax payers are paying for the losses), why not. That's just smart business and propagates an poor church image. |
| Subject: | Harmons! |
| Date: | Jul 08 00:11 |
| Author: | RetiredGuy |
| This is changing the topic, but I remember the Harmon's store from my brief stay in Utah in 1982. What a place! you could get a sofa, motor oil, groceries, guns and ammo, and puppies. Now they will have an upscale store in the holy mall. |
| Subject: | The responses to the Trib article include a couple of good ones... |
| Date: | Jul 08 00:50 |
| Author: | Adult of god |
| Here's one of them: German engineering says: Anyone who knows anything about real estate could have seen this coming. The huge issue that the article doesn't discuss is that the mortgage investment market for luxury condos is national and international and is in exponentially worse shape than the housing mortgage market. High-end condos have taken the biggest valuation drop, appraisers are even less generous in appraising them (according to their new procedures), and investors are even more reticent to fund loans--all of which creates qualification standards that are nearly impossible to meet. Thus, to sell high-end condos, you generally need to find buyers who meet two criteria: (1) are willing to pay entirely in cash and actually have that kind of cash, (2) are willing to immediately lose a huge chunk of this equity the moment they close on the property. Because of the combination of #1 and #2, you essentially need to target stupid people with lots of money, or people with so much money and other motivations for buying the condo that they don't care it's a net loss (which to me, is still stupid but not necessarily to someone who is willing to pay anything to live by the SLC temple, for example). The literal result of all of this is that there are HUNDREDS of high-end condos towers in this country that have been built are are completely empty or virtually empty. Moreover, of the successfully built older luxury condo projects, there are literally tens of thousands of individual units that are empty and unsellable. This has destroyed the funding market for these projects. Orem mid-town village is a classic example of this happening locally. Yes, Larry Myler was a complete idiot for putting a high-end condo project on state street in Orem, which is by far the worst part of Utah county, if not Utah (and thus only 4 people were stupid enough to purchase with cash and are the only owner residents); but the bigger issue is that they had all the units reserved by people who were excited about the project and willing to take out loans, but not ONE of them could get a loan and close. It really was a cool project with very nice designs and amenities (despite the ridiculously stupid location). However, the high-end condo market is essentially black-listed for loans. People will have the same loan problem with City Creek, but I don't think it will sit empty, because the LDS Church won't let that happen. They'll drop prices and essentially subsidize the units to make sure they're filled (which they already are doing, so that already it's already a terrible business deal). There's no way they'll let them sit empty--it would be a PR disaster. There should also be enough impressionable retired people with money who think that living next to the SLC temple is worth throwing away most of their retirement savings for. City Creek retail could be a little trickier. National (and local) retail is a disaster and they need national retailers to make it work. Worse, the retailers they're courting just aren't compelling enough to where the mall will be a special retail draw in an already overbuilt market--it's the same mix that you see anywhere in the US, and the square footage they're providing is already smaller than several existing Utah malls. It's not like it's some kind of mega-mall with roller coasters and night clubs. There's already Nordstrom all over Utah, building another one isn't exciting. Thus, the mall portion could be a bigger money loser than the condo portion. I'm not sure how much the LDS church will want to subsidize others' for-profit retail operations. They have to do so to a degree (already are) but there's a point at which they'd probably scale some of it back or turn it into church offices or more visitor center attractions. Or maybe they could turn half of it into a massive Deseret Book / Church distribution center :)? |
| Subject: | this $3 billion+ dollar mall has been so egregiously wrong.... |
| Date: | Jul 08 08:24 |
| from the start that any honest-thinking Mormon should be able to easily see how uninspired the prophets, seers, and revelators are. |
| Subject: | honest thinking is the key word here...can you be a mormon and fit that catagory??/nt |
| Subject: | ..or the profit will make a spinning subtle appeal to members.. |
| Date: | Jul 08 10:44 |
| Author: | Steven |
| to shop at the Jeezus mall for extra blessings, much like his recent "twice a tithe" talk in general conference. |
| Subject: | What is this talk, of which you speak, love a link, pleeeeease. nt |
| Subject: | Re: What is this talk, of which you speak, love a link, pleeeeease. nt |
| Date: | Jul 08 17:23 |
| "To know that a poor man consistently and cheerfully
gave at least twice a tenth to the Lord gave one a clearer insight into the
true meaning of tithing. To see him minister to the hungered and take in the
stranger made one know that he did it as he would do to the Master. To pray
with him and partake of his confidence of divine intercession was to
experience a new medium of communication." Monson, 2009, Ensign (plus a GC talk) |
| Subject: | Mo date night at the Celestial Mall. Scan your temple club card for compliance. n/t |
| Subject: | I believe the "business savvy" of the Mormon Church is another myth . . . |
| Date: | Jul 08 11:11 |
| Author: | furtherlightandroughage |
| like the myth that it is the fastest growing church.
As an organization, it has been in financial trouble more of its history
than it has not. My understanding is it wasn't until the 1960s, in the
aftermath of David O. McKay's disastrous building program, that the LDS
Church began to get itself on a firm financial footing with the help of N.
Eldon Tanner. Perhaps there is someone well-versed in the Mormon Church's financial history could provide some information and context. |
| Subject: | So if I were rich and stupid enough to buy into this -- |
| Date: | Jul 08 11:48 |
| Author: | Laban's Head |
| Would I be allowed to make my morning coffee and sip my evening wine while living there? Could I smoke on my balcony? |
| Subject: | Would your TBM friend believe TSSC's own Church News and Deseret News? (quotes and links) |
| Date: | Jul 25 02:35 |
| Author: | FreeAtLast |
| Oct. 2/07 Church News online report: "The project,
estimated at $1 billion, will cover three downtown blocks." [ now $4
Billion July 2010] "Tithing dollars also will not be used for the project, which is being developed with funding from other real-estate ventures by Property Reserve Inc., the real estate arm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (ref. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/51108/City-Creek-Center--Downtown-Rising-revitalization-is-under-way.html) Deseret News June 25, 2010 report: "Church officials have not disclosed the project's cost, but estimates have ranged between $1 billion and $3 billion." "City Creek Reserve Inc., a development arm of the LDS Church, and partner Taubman Centers Inc. of Bloomfield Hills, Mich., have been redeveloping three blocks of downtown Salt Lake City — including the former locations of Crossroads Plaza and ZCMI Center — into a mix of residential, retail and office space." (ref. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700042994/Fitness-center-fire-fountains-in-plans-for-City-Creek-project.html) Nov. 4/09 Des. News report: "City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy." (ref. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705341784/Salt-Lake-City-high-rise-is-ready-for-occupancy-on-Main.html) Also: Oct. 18/05 Commercial Property News report: "Church of LDS Set to Kick Off $1.5B Salt Lake City Redevelopment" (ref. http://www.allbusiness.com/operations/facilities-commercial-real-estate/4415059-1.html) Even if Latter-day Saints believe the 'lite' sum of 'just' $1B in the Church News report (doesn't jive with Salt Lake Tribune or other reports) in Oct./07, where did LD$ Inc. get an extra $2-3 BILLION for the project? Spare change in the Church Office Building cookie jar?! "In briefing the Salt Lake City Council on the project's progress, Bishop Burton said "good planning" and recycled materials have helped keep the project under budget. Officials have not disclosed the cost of the project, though some have estimated the LDS Church will spend as much as $3 billion by the time the center opens in 2012." (ref. http://www.mormontimes.com/article/1207/Green-building-efforts-at-City-Creek) |
| Subject: | Re: Would your TBM friend believe TSSC's own Church News and Deseret News? (quotes and links) |
| Date: | Jul 25 03:12 |
| Author: | New to the Board |
| Thanks for the info. I have sent it on to her , but
I'm not sanguine that she'll pull her head out of -er, the sand. I wonder if this is her own interpretation or if this is what's being taught at the ward level. I'm torn between really pounding this issue and just letting it go. For the sake of the friendship, I'll probably back off. I just hope that we've planted a tiny seed....Thanks again |
| Subject: | The Sunday, coffee and alcohol issue aside... |
| Date: | Jul 24 14:22 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| Here's what's weird about that quote to me... Why would they want to use a Church Title for the guy attending the store opening ceremony? Do they think they are dedicating a temple or something? I'm surprised they are making the blending of the mall and the church so obvious. Usually they keep a layer of deniablility between themselves and their non-religious activities. I would have guessed they would have had a city official rather than a church official at store openings. |
| Subject: | Uhmm Dagny . . . [clears throat] |
| Date: | Jul 24 15:32 |
| Author: | Shummy |
| The dedication of a cathedral of Gawd is always worthy
of a Sanhedrin's blessing yeah be it even a cathedral of commerce. Commerce is pleasing unto the Lawrd. Hath it ever been otherwise since that rascally cousin of mine turned over that first shovel full of uh, dirt? The sheep are what matter most to the suits these days and luckily they doan need no steenking plausible deniability. |
| Subject: | Because they don't want their own members to boycott their development. nt |
| Subject: | Re: A little more on City Creek |
| Date: | Jul 24 18:15 |
| Author: | AxelDC |
| Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? |
| Subject: | LDS church shoots itself in both feet and the groin! |
| Date: | Jul 24 18:50 |
| Author: | Matt |
| >"The LDS Church, which counsels its members
against drinking alcohol, has stated it is not opposed to responsible
consumption of alcoholic beverages by informed adults." Does this not imply, therefore, that Mormons are NOT informed adults? |
| Subject: | The question you should have asked is... |
| Date: | Jul 24 18:59 |
| Author: | Elder Berry |
| > Does this not imply, therefore, that Mormons are
NOT informed adults? ...Do Mormons leaders endorse a certain kind of alcohol? Of course not! |
| Subject: | How about Deseret Rum?... |
| Date: | Jul 24 19:06 |
| Author: | Bob T |
| I think the Morg and Mormons control a considerable
amount of sugar production. (Perhaps why U.S. has never normalized relations
with Cuba. Bay of Pigs was long ago) |
| Subject: | No, the question that should have been asked is... |
| Date: | Jul 25 01:50 |
| Author: | Ultra TBM Mega Lord |
| How can I get closer to the Church and thus develop a
closer relationship with Christ. By selling liquor, but not drinking it yourself. Ta da! |
| Subject: | Well, the question Marriot should ask is what other "service" can I offer to increase my tihtes? nt |
| Subject: | Yeah, it doesn't sound like they're responsible enough either. |
| Date: | Jul 24 19:03 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| lol nice catch, Matt. :-) |
| Subject: | Re: LDS church shoots itself in both feet and the groin! |
| Date: | Jul 24 22:43 |
| Author: | AxelDC |
| Fascinating that the LDS Church excuses selling liquor
by stating that it's the consumer that is the sinner, not the seller. The
seller is merely catering to the whims of the all-accountable consumer. Governments, on the other hand, typically go after the supplier of controlled substances. In many countries, such as the UK, carrying and consuming small amounts of marijuana is legal, but the seller can be arrested. This is diametrically opposite to the LDS Church's view. I think the LDS position can be summed up with: We thank thee, oh God, for our profits! |
| Subject: | Excellent, Matt...and... |
| Date: | Jul 25 13:29 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| "...not opposed to responsible consumption of
alcoholic beverages by informed adults." If the church really thought that, then why do they impose such strong laws regarding alcohol? That also implies that the Mormon church does not consider their followers or anyone in their base state informed adults or they would have normal laws other states. |
| Subject: | A little more on City Creek |
| Date: | Jul 24 12:34 |
| Author: | Eric K |
|
"...celebrating the opening ceremony of the new Harmon's store at City Creek, attended by Presiding Bishop David Burton. This new stores opening hours 'will be the same as the chains other locations, 6a.m. to midnight, seven days a week' and will contain 'a coffee and Italian gelato bar'." It appears the mall will be open on Sundays. I thought they announced previously it would not be open on Sundays. I am just trying to get the facts straight, if that is possible in Mormonism. |
| Subject: | The Sunday, coffee and alcohol issue aside... |
| Date: | Jul 24 14:22 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| Here's what's weird about that quote to me... Why would they want to use a Church Title for the guy attending the store opening ceremony? Do they think they are dedicating a temple or something? I'm surprised they are making the blending of the mall and the church so obvious. Usually they keep a layer of deniability between themselves and their non-religious activities. I would have guessed they would have had a city official rather than a church official at store openings. |
Related Topics
The original article: Mormon403. The Mormon Mall - City Creek to cost over $4 Billion dollars.
The following sections are updates as of August 2010.
A.) Expensive Feature: The name sake of the project is the City Creek that runs down City Creek Canyon to the Jordan River. In 1909 the creek was placed in an underground conduit down North Temple Street from outside of Memory Grove to west of the State Fairpark where the water exits into the Jordan River. The Mormon church decided that a water feature was necessary for the City Creek Project. And only “true” City Creek Water will fit the bill. So the water features in the project will have water pumped up to the feature, run along an artificial “creek” and into a water pond where fish and other aquatic creatures and plants will be on display. Mormon403a
B.) The cost of the project is now estimated to approach $4 Billion Dollars. This is the most expensive mall in the US. Mormon403b [This data of $4 billion is unconfirmed, but believed to be reliable based on past experience from trusted Mormon insiders. The Mormon Church does not open its books for public scrutiny - not even to its members.]
C.) The world's tallest building, Burj Khalifa, completed in 2009 in Dubai cost only $1.5 billion. Mormon403c
D.) LDS welfare stats for 2009 are now available and demonstrate that the mall is far more important than helping those in need. Mormon403d
E.) Condo prices at City Creek slashed 50% due to the economy. Mormon403e
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |