What is So Evil about the Mormon Church Today?

Subject:	What's so evil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 11 06:31
Author:	new

My real question is what is it that is so damned EVIL about the Church now? So brethren make more money than I thought they did I just won't pay tithing till they start telling me where it goes, but what does the Church org do that is any worse than public school or mass media? It's all a form of brainwashing. Just look at all the patriotic paraphenalia all over the place to get us to either support the troops loudly or dissent quietly because to do so out loud would put them in harm's way somehow.

I'm a newly recovering mormon and have only lurked these posts but my husband, who I'm not at all sure is still a TBM, argues the points outlined below and I'm having a hard time overcoming them.

1 The church gives people an opportunity to serve. (I like to point out most of the "service" is completely contrived just for the sake of feeling like you're "doing" something. I've since started working on ward members computers for free to show you actually can use the church org to provide actual service.

2 The church is the best\easiest place to associate with people who believe in clean living. (I have to admit it is difficult to find other circles outside the Church where I can meet socially with people who are family oriented and don't drink or smoke and at least claim to love learning though they also love reality television at the same time. I think it makes them feel like the Church must be true, because look at how depraved the "real world" is.)

3 Members of the Church are generally happier and more successful than the rest of the population. (I don't know if this is true or not. I have a career myself and have more contact with those outside than in and I do have to say that in general I think members are more...fulfilled?, happy?, high??...they're more something and they tend not to have as many "oh that's my son from before my first marriage and those are my two girls from my second marriage but their actually my ex-husband's and his ex-wife's, and now I'm pregnent with my live-in." I do get pretty tired of the family soap-opera's that do seem more prevalent on the outside."

4 The Church encourages self-improvement. (I've never felt they encouraged *my* self-improvement but I have seen other people experience growth from within the org. He is also quick to point out to me that since I've been on my more aggressive individualized path our TBM friends have not been unsupportive. What's weird is they really aren't even trying to defend the Church. It's as if there is such a large enough segment that *knows* but keeps quiet that many just don't feel the need to make a fuss when you start drifting away.)

With respect to number 4 I have to say that much of my own guilt now feels imagined because so few members seem to judge me at all. No one seems to mind that I have a career and a housekeeper who watches my children the greater part of most days. I gave a rather pointed talk in Sacrament meeting calling on the members to start truly living the 13th article of faith which I think gets completely brushed under the rug and many many people told me with sincere emotion how much they enjoyed it and had thought those same things themselves. In it I even criticized young people who get out reading literature in school because it will supposedly corrupt them.

Of course I've since learned WHY we can't actually live the 13th article because we can't actually seek for truth without damning the org. I guess it's the lack of discussion, the lack of democracy and a plurality of ideas. The stay on message, don't teach from anything but the approved material, attitude really chaps me.

Sorry that was so long but I really do want to know what you all feel is really wrong about the org? I need some answers and I want some good ones. I want CURRENT dirt.

Is the Morg worse, better, or the same in evilness as the government? As public education? As mass media? Corporate power?

Subject:	Quite a bit, IMHO.
Date:	Aug 11 07:26
Author:	exmoron

-Hinckley LYING on national television about some very fundamental beliefs of the church (and most members not even being fazed by it).

-Teaching racist, sexist and otherwise bigoted doctrine found in canonized scripture, as well as the doctrine of polygamy (it will be practiced in heaven, multiple sealings, etc), all the while claiming that these doctrines are outdated and no longer taught.

-Mormon missionaries LYING to investigators to get them to join (if you don't believe that's true, read the thread on page one or two of this board, where RM's confess to doing, and being encouraged to do, just that).

-Requiring money to get into heaven (before you tell me tithing is optional... 1. you have to pay a full 10% to go to the temple, and 2. you have to go to, and get married in, the temple in order to live with God- you do the math).

-Grown men asking teenage girls extremely personal and sensitive questions of a sexual nature behind closed doors!

I could go on and on. Emotionally abusive, damaging to self esteem; encouraging sexual repression; has been responsible for breaking up many a family, despite their "Families are Forever" and "Family: Isn't it About Time" tag lines; hundreds more examples of LYING to members and nonmembers; covering up their history in attempt to go mainstream; et cetera.

In regard to your #1, I agree in that most of the "service" we did as youth was a joke. But in addition, think about this: there are much more charitable organizations in the world than the Mormon church. Your 10% is going to buy companies and shopping malls, and if I'm not mistaken, you have to be a member in order to receive their welfare.

In regard to your #2, their are plenty of other places to find people like that with whom you can socialize. It is a common Mormon tactic to make the members think that anyone outside the church must be a crack fiend, or equally "unworthy" of associating with. It's just not true. There are dozens of churches, Christian and otherwise, and even non-religious organizations, I'm sure, where you can be involved in family activities, and find people who share your interests and values. The Mormon church does not have a monopoly on good people and "clean living".

In regard to your #3, I don't think so. There was a brilliant post on this board a couple of weeks ago (I can't remember the author- sorry!) asking whether you'd rather be ignorantly happy living a lie, or disappointed but know the truth? The truth is, we were taught to repress bad feelings at a very young age. Mormons have the same volume of problems, and feel the same ups and downs that we all feel. They are just much better at putting up a facade. I know this, because I did it myself, as a TBM.

In regard to your #4, I wholeheartedly disagree that the church encourages self improvement. The Mormon church is emotionally abusive to its members. Like I said above, the church discourages independent and intellectual thought and having self-esteem; its members grow up repressed- emotionally, mentally, sexually, and spiritually. I know where you're coming from when you say that your Mo friends have actually been supportive. This was also the case for me. However, that doesn't justify all of the "evil" (I don't like using that word, but since it was your original description...) things the church has done, and is still doing.

You don't need to feel guilty about leaving the church just because your friends aren't giving you a hard time about it.

I applaud you on your talk, and for defending literature (I assume you meant to say getting out of reading literature). I've always been rather gung-ho about the banned book/censorship issue. I completely agree with you on this statement:

Of course I've since learned WHY we can't actually live the 13th article because we can't actually seek for truth without damning the org. I guess it's the lack of discussion, the lack of democracy and a plurality of ideas. The stay on message, don't teach from anything but the approved material, attitude really chaps me.

I've always felt that if the "truth" is really the truth, it should withstand scrutiny, not fall apart!

Man, I did not mean to write this much. Congratulations on your new recovery! I hope you stick around for a while and learn more from these great people; I know I have. I also hope that I was useful in answering your question. I guess it all depends on what your definition of "evil" is. If you're going by the Morg's definition, then I guess the answer would be "nothing at all". The people on this board don't go by the Morg's definition. The items I listed about the church are things that I honestly feel are morally unacceptable and reprehensible. If that's what you'd call evil, then I guess that's my answer.

Welcome to the board!

Subject:	I must take issue with several of your points.
Date:	Aug 11 07:31
Author:	bobbie

Public education is not generally aimed at "brain washing" or deceiving individuals. Yes, their are biases that come with the presenter. However, you are not threatened with eternal damnation if you dissent and ask questions. Many educators actively solicit differing opinions from their students to expose the class to multiple view points.

Your argument also seems to be stating that because everyone else is doing it that makes it alright. Sorry, duplicity is duplicity. I see reports of murder frequently on the news. Does this mean murder is acceptable?

I also question the groups that you are spending time with if they seem to have more divorces than mormons. In actuality the rate of divorce among mormons is generally no better than the general population. What you are seeing appears to be a local anomaly, or in other words a problem of taking to small of a sample. The rate of fornication and adultery in the church is generally lower than in the general population. However, it is significantly high enough to still be a major issue. Sorry I do not remember where I saw the church generated stats on this, but the levels they admitted to were higher than I expected.

There are millions of "clean, wholesome" individuals in the world that are not mormons. I would suggest taking a much broader sweep of the population. For example if I used my home ward as my sample I would conclude that fornication and adultery are just as prevalent or slightly more so in the church than out. Furthermore, I would need to conclude that the rate of divorce is higher in the church than out.

I haven't found the "world" to be stifling to any of my opinions; political, religious, or otherwise. Again your experience seems to be very localized.

You seem to be stating that your dissent consists of working outside the home and teaching the 13th article of faith. Here is an experiment for you. Present the Book of Abraham video or DNA vs. The Book of Mormon in Relief Society some Sunday. Or perhaps bring up the lack of archaeological evidence for the BoM in your next SM talk. I believe that you will find that the understanding ward members will become quite hostile. The problems that you present are incredibly superficial.

Subject:	Re: What's so eeeevil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 11 09:01
Author:	Temple Name: Olivia

The Church LIES to us...in fact has always been one big, fat, ugly, scum-sucking lie. I cannot and WILL not give of my time and talents to an organization that continually lies to its faithful. It has no respect for anyone and I give it none in return.

That being said I have been out of the church for many years. I am now a Christian who regularly attends a contemporary worship Baptist church with my family. With regard to your "points" about the good things about being a Mormon:

1. The church gives people an opportunity to serve
2. The church is the best/easiest place to associate with people who believe in clean living
3. Members of the church are generally happier and more successful than the rest of the population, and
4. The church encourages self improvement...

...if I didn't know you were a Mormon and didn't know you were extolling the virtues of the Mormon church I might have thought you were talking about MY church. I think that because you view the world through the eyes of the Morg, it blinds you to the fact that there are MANY churches outside of the Morg that can claim the same virtues you extolled IN the Morg. I know because I used to feel that way too. I was actually surprised when I ventured out "into the world" that there was a whole world of happy, successful, family-oriented, clean-living (whatever that means) NON-Mormons who were continually looking to not only improve themselves but to help improve the world around them.

And with regard to not being judged about being a working mom...you must be pretty young. When I was a young working mother I got nothing but GRIEF from the other "homemakers" in our ward. They never missed an opportunity to let me know how "sorry" they felt for me or to tell me how much I was missing from not being with my children all day long. You're lucky you're young. But then so MUCH has changed in the church and its members since the early 1970's. You'd hardly recognize it now.

Subject:	A ward that I lived in a year ago...
Date:	Aug 11 16:08
Author:	billy

looked down on the working mothers. Several working mothers were passed over by the bishop for callings because of that little fact. I was in the meetings when those decisions were made so I heard it from the horses mouth.

Subject:	You must live in or around Utah.
Date:	Aug 11 09:58
Author:	austinapostate

I won't go through your whole list, as I'm sure that others will take that task on. However, there are a few points that I have issues with. I'm a newly recovering mormon as well, about 9 months or so of being actively not practicing, but was BIC and raised in Utah, so I have some background in respect to some of your issues.

1: "The church gives people an opportunity to serve" It's not an "opportunity" it's a calling. Should you fail to fulfill your "opportunity, you are under condemnation. I've had as many as 5 "opportunities" at a time, I never felt as though they were "opportunities", they were callings and responsibilities no one else wanted to fulfill. Those "opportunities" come at the cost of your family and personal development.

2: "The church is the best/easiest place to associate with people who believe in clean living." According to whom? Unless you are hanging out in a crack house or a bar, most people believe in clean living. Again it's a Utah bias that the rest of the world is degenerate. It't not so. My neighborhood association has activities monthly...we are all believers in clean living. The Elks, Lions, Eagles, PTA, Girl Scouts, Rotarians, etc...all believe in clean living. The LDS church does not have a corner on the market in respect to clean living and strong communities. The fact that Utah is the con capital of the country speaks volumes.

3: "Members of the church are generally happier and more successful than the rest of the population." I don't know where to start on that one. Anti-depressant use in Utah leads the country. Bankruptcy in Utah leads the country. Take a look at any relief society meeting and tell me if they LOOK happy. Typically, most TBM's are so burdened by callings and "opportunities" to serve, they are exhausted. Families of church leaders are often fatherless as their fathers are busy elsewhere. Not a recipe for happiness. As for being more successful than the rest of the population. Again, a Utah bias. Believe it or not, people all over the world, become successful at alarmingly high rates, the same as in LDS influenced countries. Successful doesn't mean wealth either, education, personal fullfilment, etc...are all measures of success. LDS doesn't have a corner on that market either.

Whew, sorry for the rant!

However, the biggest issue here is that I can complain about my government or my public schools, I can turn off the TV and the news. I don't HAVE to accept the brainwashing. And there are no eternal consequences to them. With the church, you can't complain. If something doesn't make sense, it's YOU who shoulders the burden. YOU are the problem. YOU are under condemnation if you don't follow things that make no sense. YOU will be separated from your family for all eternity if you choose not to follow. Govt. school, media, don't come with that pressure. That's why it's evil, well that and the deceitful leaders, the changing doctrine and the violent history.

Subject:	It's not about opportunities, it's about controlling your own life
Date:	Aug 11 10:31
Author:	CO2

Let's say that you decide that you're just too busy to go hometeaching/visiting teaching for the month. Does the church say to you, "That's ok, we appreciate your efforts - perhaps you can contribute at another time"? Hell no. Right now, I'm being hounded by a new hometeaching supervisor who has decided that he needs to start calling me throughout the month to see if I've done my hometeaching already. It may not be eeevil - but it sure is annoying.
You see, to them, it's not volunteer service - it's a job. Give a peon a little supervising authority and he'll become more annoying than a bad case of jock itch.

Here's another example. I'm practically inactive, but I'll go with my wife to SM. Just the other day, a woman in the ward said to my wife, "I haven't seen you at church lately, are you going inactive?" What a rude thing to say to someone. But people in the Mormon church seem to feel as though they have every right to condemn others, both inside and outside of their religion. Is that really what you want from your church?

While the church does give you some opportunities to help others, it really comes at a cost. Perhaps you are one of those that doesn't mind the cost. Perhaps you don't care if your church is honest with you or not. Perhaps you don't mind the phone calls, the judgmental quips, the expectation that you WILL devote your time and energy at the expense of your personal growth and time spent with your family. Perhaps you don't mind not being able to say NO to a calling. Perhaps you want someone else to call your shots and tell you what to do in every aspect of your life.

If so, best wishes...

Subject:	what's so unique about LDS good points?
Date:	Aug 11 11:40
Author:	winter

new wrote:
> 1 The church gives people an opportunity to serve. (I like to point out most of the "service" is completely contrived just for the sake of feeling like you're "doing" something. I've since started working on ward members computers for free to show you actually can use the church org to provide actual service.

>

Yes, it gives people a chance to serve. Some of the service can be quite useful, but much is not, and you don't get to pick and choose what you want to do. There are plenty of other places that also offer opportunities to serve. The fact that many Mormons are not even aware of these opportunities is part of the problem.

> 2 The church is the best\easiest place to associate with people who believe in clean living. (I have to admit it is difficult to find other circles outside the Church where I can meet socially with people who are family oriented and don't drink or smoke and at least claim to love learning though they also love reality television at the same time. I think it makes them feel like the Church must be true, because look at how depraved the "real world" is.)

>

Oh, please. Just to pick two fairly common Morg traits, which do you consider worse, institutionalized homophobia and general failure to respect personal boundaries, or Coors Light in the fridge?

"Yes, I know The Church is homophobic, sexist, authoritarian, dissembles and distorts its history. But I stay because it is good for my children." Say what??

> 3 Members of the Church are generally happier and more successful than the rest of the population. (I don't know if this is true or not. I have a career myself and have more contact with those outside than in and I do have to say that in general I think members are more...fulfilled?, happy?, high??...they're more something and they tend not to have as many "oh that's my son from before my first marriage and those are my two girls from my second marriage but their actually my ex-husband's and his ex-wife's, and now I'm pregant with my live-in." I do get pretty tired of the family soap-opera's that do seem more prevalent on the outside."

>

That is partly because Mormons don't admit to having family soap operas. They still happen. Most of my friends (virtual all, in fact) are ex or never Mormon, and they are perfectly nice, well-adjusted people. In fact, I think the Mormon side of the family is more dysfunctional than the Catholic side - by a wide margin.

> 4 The Church encourages self-improvement. (I've never felt they encouraged *my* self-improvement but I have seen other people experience growth from within the org. He is also quick to point out to me that since I've been on my more aggressive individualized path our TBM friends have not been unsupportive. What's weird is they really aren't even trying to defend the Church. It's as if there is such a large enough segment that *knows* but keeps quiet that many just don't feel the need to make a fuss when you start drifting away.)

>

Yes, it encourages self-improvement. Mormons to tend to value education, as far as it is "translated" correctly :) But, it discourages introspection, honesty in expressing your feelings, facing facts, etc. How many people who have left have expressed great relief at no longer having to perform the mental gymnastics required to be active, versus those who say they feel lost now that they are out?

Most the the interesting thinkers and artisans that I know, even in Zion, are not LDS. Many LDS don't have time to develop interesting hobbies.

My 2 cents
winter

Subject:	LDS people are happier?
Date:	Aug 11 13:05
Author:	MySongAngel

See, you're saying that because that's what they told you. Why is Utah the Prozac capital of the World if we're so damn happy? I, for one, can't tell you how much happier I am now that I am an atheist. I don't have this agonizing "Everything happens for a reason" in the back of my head. I don't have a God to curse when things go wrong. I can now see that shit happens, and there is not necessarily a reason for it. This makes me able to fight back instead of just "giving into destiny". I don't think, "Well, God must want it this way." I'm not always second-guessing God, "Does he want me to overcome this trial, or is this trial supposed to be my test?" I can decide what's right or wrong. I decide what I do with my life. I decide who to love, who to hate, who to forgive and who to distrust. It's my life now. The church turns people into robots. That is very harmful AND evil, in my opinion. I made some extremely poor decisions at a very young age because I felt "guided by the spirit" and obligated to make those decisions. I will never get a second chance to live my life the way I would have lived it, but I'm definitely making the rest of my life MINE.

Subject:	Re: LDS people are happier?
Date:	Aug 11 13:47
Author:	Drinks Coffee on the sly

One reason I left the church was I evaluated how happy my TBM family was -- consistently, I found them LESS happy, with significantly less joie de vivre.

I am MUCH happier OUT of the church than in, and I find the "happiness" claim of the Morg to be like everything else it hawks: a lie.

Subject:	eevil, as in, the fruits of the Devil
Date:	Aug 11 13:58
Author:	oxbow

The church certainly has become less "eevil" as you put it since the 1980's. Much of it is glitter and makeup, though, meant to counter the negative public image of it. Service is done mostly to keep the church alive, as there is no paid clergy. So that is just self-propagating behavior and doesn't fall into a good or evil category, just a time consuming one that leaves less time for self and family/friends.

Good people can be found at other churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc., so that in no way makes the church true or better than the world.

Inability to question or dissent because the church is "true" leads to a guilt cycle which is hard to pull out of for many, since all problems are your fault alone. Members can be wrong, so others may be to blame, but their callings are inspired and cant be questioned until after a disaster happens.

I think members are happier, but because many will themselves to be so. Some may be lying, but I actually felt happier than before joining the church because I thought I was making God happy and living righteously. Of course, it was hard repressing doubts and harboring guilt for every unworthy thought or action.

However, I'm even happier now that I'm ex-mo so I guess the church was just a stepping-stone in my case.

Self-improvement. Hmmm....That's a hard one. Again, the church does promote compassion, honesty, love and other virtues. It doesn't make the church true, though. Many other org's, religious and not, promote these. Still, if that's what you want out of a church, then so be it.

I value truth and honesty though, so I think its rather hypocritical of the church to pay lip service to honesty when it has so many lies and deceptions to answer for. Investigators and member need to know both the good and the bad to exercise free agency, and the church is against this by its very nature.

Any other good religious organization can offer these virtues, usually minus the cog.diss. and time-drain

The members are great, but the church itself is an a$$-hole

Subject:	It promotes family alienation and intolerance
Date:	Aug 11 14:09
Author:	Jan Zimmerman

I was unable to attend the weddings of any of my brothers, or most weddings in my extended family. I was MAID of HONOR for many of these weddings, and for the weddings of friends. My place of honor was in the temple parking lot, or Temple Square...

My parents chose the church, and three of their children over the rest of their children who do not share their belief in "the only true church upon the face of the church." They will never know their own children, and have no desire to, because we won't be in heaven together anyway...

The church is divisive, while making blanket statements that family is their priority, and families are forever...

Subject:	Even if you had been in the temple, you would not have been the maid of honor
Date:	Aug 11 14:30
Author:	Micro

This issue has bothered me for years. Why can't women sign the legal documents as witnesses to the weddings?
All I ever get told is that it is a "priesthood" ordinance.
Ironically, the legal documents at my wedding were signed BEFORE I set foot in the sealing room. Does the priesthood have some kind of ESP to let the men know whether or not brides and grooms will actually go through with the wedding?

Women cannot sign even after they have witnessed the ceremony. Men can sign whether they have seen it or, most likely, NOT.

Subject:	Not "evil" but unwise
Date:	Aug 11 14:12
Author:	Fubeca

Much of the following is from an essay I wrote. I have adapted or copied a lot of material from this site or other post mormon informative sites. I never planned on sharing this publicly so that's why inadequate credit is given...just in case you recognize yourself in here. My essay is my "coming out" declaration as an exmo. Here's the part that relates to this discussion:

The church marketing machine would have us believe that our families are better off in the church than without it. But do the facts confirm it? Are my family and I better off giving most of our spare time during the week and all day Sunday to the church than we would be otherwise? I think loving non-LDS parents spend more time with their kids than most active LDS members. Is quality time enough? The church certainly doesn’t think so when it comes to working mothers. How can they assail women who sacrifice time with their kids on one hand and on the other hand tell us that our families receive blessings when their fathers work all day and spend most nights away for a church calling? Am I better off giving 10% of my income to the church than I would be spending it on my family or giving it to a charity that doesn’t mislead me?

I've found that the "good stuff" of the church is just as available and abundant other places without the arrogance of being the only ones who are right. I don't have to believe in “follow the prophet” to be a good father and husband. I don't have to participate in temple ceremonies to be a good neighbor and love my fellow man. I don't have to be assigned to people in order to serve others.

Most people who live on this earth get married and stay married for life. Most people on this planet are sober almost all of the time. Most people report being fairly happy most of the time and sometimes they are extremely happy. Most people have beliefs that they find satisfying. Most people, at least in the western world, are healthier and wealthier than ever before on this earth. Any yet, the vast majority do it without the help of Mormonism! In fact a lot of them do a whole lot better than Mormons do in many respects. Some great achievers on planet earth would not have been able to accomplish what they did had they been LDS. Here are a few examples:

· Take Mother Teresa. She wasn’t a Mormon. If she had been, the church never would have let her run a church owned charity because she didn’t have the priesthood. And besides, she really should have gotten married and had lots of babies if she wanted to do some real good in the world.

· Take Nelson Mandela. You want leadership? He has it in spades but he couldn’t have been a leader of the Mormons. Before 1978 black people were not allowed the priesthood. In fact, when the priesthood was given to black men in 1978, a lot of Mormons in South Africa left the church because generations of church leaders had taught that black people are descendants of Ham, son of Noah, and therefore should be servants and not leaders.

· Take Martin Luther King, Jr. His leadership and oratory skills would also have been unwelcome in the LDS church. In fact LDS leaders suspiciously accused him of being part of a communist conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government. That deep, mysterious conspiracy was the civil rights movement, which LDS church leaders fearfully resisted.

· Take the Dalai Lama. You want authority? The Dalai Lama inspires a greater following than any LDS prophet ever did. The prophet can only inspire his own believers but the Dalai Lama inspires people of all faiths, or no faith at all. And while the prophet stays quiet on most world issues, this man speaks up and people listen. His moral authority has more power than the prophet’s priesthood authority. Or perhaps inner peace is a greater measure of the man? Millions of Buddhists know more about inner peace that a Mormon will ever know. They practically invented the term.

· Take Tony Campolo. Many feel his inspiring leadership is contagious. He felt that God had called him to lead a congregation, so he just did it. He couldn’t have done it as a Mormon, of course, because he would have had to wait his turn for a five-year stint of following a church handbook just like everyone else.

· Take Albert Einstein. You want prophesies of the future? He made some predictions about the positions of the heavens and his predictions famously came true in 1915 and ever since. His discoveries have underpinned all of modern physics and hence the technology of computers, communication and all the things that allow us to do things our ancestors could only dream of. Plus, he gave us a profound understanding of reality that beats anything Joseph Smith ever said. And to cap it all off, he spent the last half of his life fearlessly campaigning for world peace. Now there’s a prophet. As an atheist, however, he would have had no place in the LDS church.

· Take Carl Sagan or Richard Feynman or other giants of theoretical physics. You want vision, grandeur, wonder and deeply happy and fulfilled souls? Almost none of them are religious in the any traditional sense but they have a love of life that you can’t beat. They have a love of truth that is inspiring.

Lives of greatness like these aren’t possible in the LDS church. I you think the best life has to offer is found in the LDS church, you need to get out more!

Subject:	This is a former post that I copied on this topic - enjoy
Date:	Aug 11 14:22
Author:	Fubeca

Subject:	Re: This is a former post that I copied on this topic - enjoy: Thank you for this!
Date:	Aug 11 14:34
Author:	Susan

I must be recovering well, I linked the Mormon church with an abusive relationship a few days ago in a posting on a thread. I think you are on-target with these points and sure, sometimes you think it's better to stay with the "devil you know" than to venture out, but if you're not even allowed to read certain books (and that list is growing by the day now) and discover for yourself how their messages stack up with current messages of mentally healthy coping/life skills then you know something is very wrong, someone has a lot to hide and they need you to pay for it and stay in the dark at the same time!!!

Subject:	Re: What's so eeeevil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 11 14:25
Author:	Micro

What I think makes the church evil is the insistence that it is THE truth. I could take a lot of the garbage that the church puts out if it were not packaged as the truth.

I never had that problem in school. Now that I am a college professor (economics), I tell my students when I am expressing my opinion. I also tell the students that some of the best theories we have now are still just opinions. How often do the brethren do that?

If the church is true, then the brethren have no reason to lie. I have been bothered recently by the attempts to cover up history, to make excuses, deny past doctrine, etc.

Also, if it is the truth, then it should supercede time. Why were the blacks ever denied the priesthood? Whether or not blacks were slaves when the church was formed, should be irrelevant. God is beyond time. Any real prophet should have known better.

As far as happiness goes, I don't believe it. I have never been happy in the church. I know that there are a lot of people who claim to be happy in the church, but I have also seen a lot of people outside the church that seem just as happy. In fact, it was observing some of these happy non-mormons which gave me the courage to leave. I did not know why I could not have the happiness with the "truth" that they had without it. Either they were faking it (which I doubted) or the church was not all it claimed to be.

Subject:	The Psychologist Scott Peck Defines "Genuine Evil" . . .
Date:	Aug 11 14:33
Author:	SL Cabbie

As the "failure to acknowledge the sin." I've got my issues with Peck (author of The Road Less Traveled and People of The Lie and a favorite of board heavyweight Bob McCue), but this is a very powerful statement because it implies the wrongdoing is going to continue and the perpetrators are either unaware of the consequences of their actions or willfully choose to ignore them.

Growing up in Utah I saw firsthand the effects of church heavy-handedness in the education system. The issue in the 60's was often evolution as taught in science classes, and even today, I'm blown away at the number of posters who admitted they ignored the subject because they were being taught at home and in church (probably informally since it was a subject of controversy) that it simply wasn't true; that there was a literal flood, God created Adam and Eve, etc. etc.

I consider an understanding of Darwinism essential to critical thought and the ability to see beyond superstition and medieval pronouncements on human nature.

Too, I recognize now that the Utah history classes I attended were little more than church propaganda devices (as a teacher I later saw other classes used similarly); Brigham Young was probably greater than St. Peter (who'd had his chance and denied Christ); there was no mention of his marital woes nor Blood Atonement or Mountain Meadows, and the notion that Mormons might've had any role in bringing about the persecution that drove them to Salt Lake was blasphemy.

What this has created is a "The Church Can Do No Wrong" mentality here that is frightening because there are no checks on its power and reasonable dissent is smothered. Witness what has happened with the Salt Lake Tribune since the Singleton takeover . . .

And it's far worse in smaller Utah cities and towns where the church assumes the role of Rotary and Lions Clubs . . . I started down the road of political activity as a moderate environmentalist, and I repeatedly encountered networks of "good ol' boys" who were convinced we didn't want more roads in wilderness areas because it was environmentally sound and a means of protecting resources for all citizens but because we were out to spoil their fun and take away their grazing subsidies which amounted to little more than welfare for ranchers.

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, but this stuff always makes me livid . . .

Subject:	Re: What's so eeeevil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 11 15:02
Author:	Bill

The Mormon Church is eevil because:

The founder was a liar and others that followed him continued and perpetuated the lies. Child and sexual abuse that happens in that church stem from the fact that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had horrible attitudes about children and women. They had coerced several women and young teenage girls (14 years old) into sexual intercourse before marriage. They married several after they were several months pregnant. This rich legacy live with Mormonism today. There is one set of rules they preach and another set that they live. I know that Non-Mormons have problems; at least they are honest about it. People in leadership positions need to be responsible to those they lead. Allowing bad conduct only makes things worse in all our institutions.

Subject:	I wouldn't say evil, but the church is an over intrusive, dishonest, and controlling organization that self promotes its claims of exclusivity.
Date:	Aug 11 16:02
Author:	dhhansen

Exclusivity meaning that it is the sole source of info from god and the sole path to the celestial kingdom. IMO, the church then abuses this self appointed power to garner more wealth for itself and to control the lives of the members.

Look at the attempts to harass those who want to leave and the shunning that takes place when a person does leave. It may claim to be about families, but the pressures that the church places on part member families is tremendous and destructive (even more so when the nonmember is a former member).

Subject:	Quote pertinent to your posting:
Date:	Aug 11 17:31
Author:	Mr. Hat

Yes, it's from South Park; episode "The Biggest Douche in the Universe" about TV psychic John Edward. Even though it is South Park, I do happen to think it's pretty insightful, and applies to what the Morg does quite nicely.

John Edward: Everything I tell people is positive and gives them hope! How does that make me a douche?

Stan Marsh: Because the big questions in life are hard. Why are we here? Where did we come from? Where are we going? But if people believe in asshole, douchey liars like you, then we're never going to find the real answers to those questions. You're not just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, you douche!

Yes, lying to people might make them think they're happy, but you're still lying to them. The lying is what makes them evil.

Subject:	I grew up in Utah, but with parents who were mormon but not TBM...
Date:	Aug 12 02:31
Author:	rain-mom

I was VERY lucky. We all gave up the "golden plates story" along with Santa & the Tooth Fairy. However, I've realized that much of what I was taught in school, girl-scouts, and of course church was a bunch of sanitized mormon propaganda.

Any organization that wants to censure what you hear/read, wants your money, time and devotion, threatens to hold your family hostage for "TIME AND ALL ETERNITY" if you don't pay up is, IMHO, EVIL!!

Scott Peck defines true evil as narcissism. The best place to find pitiful, sick narcissists is in churches. And, hell, they don't even pay taxes or publish a financial report, even with their constant fear-mongering and tired cliches. Stupid cult!!

Subject:	To point #2, clean living . . .
Date:	Aug 11 19:54
Author:	free

The church may have members who do not smoke or drink, but so what? Does this make them good?

I have seen so much rascally behavior in the LDS church (lying, ostracizing, disrupting and trying to break up families, stealing in business) that it is shameful. Yes, there are some good people in it, but there are some of the biggest hypocritical stinkers too.

I rather be with a person that drinks and smokes but treats me fairly than with a person that does not smoke or drink but slanders me and abuses me anyday.

Subject:	Re: What's so eeeevil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 12 05:01
Author:	anonymon

I work for the government and while bureaucracy can be frustrating, it is not at all like the Morg. For one, dissent is not only allowed but even ENCOURAGED. Secondly, funds are made public. We know where government money is going.

I think the biggest danger is the inconsistent message between scripture and doctrine. Someone on FAIR posted that most LDS believe the "sacrifice for sin was only in Gethsemane", even though scripture repeatedly references the cross as essential in this.

There are a few examples. I can give others if you wish.

Subject:	Clean living
Date:	Aug 12 09:22
Author:	SamN

This is one of the things that bothers me about the Morg (and a lot of other Churches for that matter)

People who smoke and drink are not "bad". If that were the case then there is not one "good" person in France. Drinking in moderation has been shown to have some positive health effects. I can not think of any benefits to smoking except it may aid in social bonding (think of smoking the peace pipe) but just because some people smoke dose not make them "bad". The social drinker and smoker who promotes the truth is a better person in my mind then a bunch of "clean living" people who hide the truth to get people to join their organization.

Subject:	point #4
Date:	Aug 12 11:28
Author:	Laila

Plenty is wrong with the church, and it has no monopoly over the traits that are good. To say it's just as [non]evil as the government or the public school system is pretty funny to me, since I think both of those are terrible. But among the myriad differences, I'm not eternally damned if I vote libertarian find problems in democracy. My Governor doesn't ask me or teenage girls questions that make me sweat behind a heavy closed door. My social network doesn't fall apart, my dad doesn't tell me Satan has control of my mind and I'm afraid of what I'm doing if I choose a different school. If my Mayor lies to me, and I find out about it, I can do something about it, expose it and get support, instead of being threatened by the whole system. No one is pretending that The System is Right and Infallible in politics or school. Everyone in Mormonism is [pretending] that it's right.

I do like when I'm not around a lot of smokers, but that's because it triggers my asthma, and I like to breathe :) I know lots of jolly people who don't live to your standard of "clean living." A little wine is good for you! And pop is not.

My biggest issue is with your point number four. Self-improvement? Self annihilation. It's hard for a young girl to find her voice anyway, but the church "requested" that I stifle every question that didn't go along with what they wanted me to be saying. It's assimilation. The church says you have to give yourself up to find yourself. Bury yourself in church service and callings. Be perfect. Look perfect. Be guilty.

Subject:	smokers?
Date:	Aug 12 11:39
Author:	Rosie

I live in a totally nonmornon neigborhood. Some are church goers (other churches) some are not. I'm trying very hard to think if even one smokes. I have never seen any smoke, not one. But if they did it wouldn't make them "bad" - just smelly.

Subject:	I dare you to find something worse...
Date:	Aug 12 11:58
Author:	Brian B.
Mail Address:	`Bunnyhurt@hotmail.com`

Statistics apply to Utah:

Highest in anti-depressant use.

Highest in personal bankruptcy.

Highest in white collar and affinity fraud.

We hear a lot of people claim 'the church' does this and that for them, but frankly, when others complain of covering up child-molestation, or not being able to talk to their spouse about beliefs without divorce, or not being able to attend their child's wedding, it seems like they are missing the point. If the Morg is false to its claims, and then sends out everyone on missions to deny this fact, then we're talking a diversion an a scale you can't fathom. You will never be able to calculate the lost lives and lost meaning to those lives that was sacrificed for...for...what was it again?

Subject:	Happy zombies. Do you want to be a brainwashed, happy, sheep/zombie? Evil
Date:	Aug 12 12:14
Author:	Doug

isn't quite right, but if you realize that it is behavior based on bogus claims, wouldn't you want out? Or, perhaps, you like taking the red pill and feeling really good. Another guy here compared it to living on morphine to kill the pain.

Subject:	Re: What's so eeeevil about "The Church" nowadays??
Date:	Aug 12 14:13
Author:	NEMS

It's a great lie. Is that not evil enough? Members serve the church most of all, and they are perpetuating the lies. Mormons do not appear to be clean. They just put on a good show. They seem to get away with more than others. What learning do Mormons love? They love to read things that will support their beliefs. They're closed-minded. They think they know it all. They're just looking for evidence to prove it, but they can never seem to find it. It's pretty disgusting. Are members really happy, or are they full of guilt and shame for being human beings? "Ignorance is bliss," but isn't it better to live in reality? Members walk around like they know more, but they know very little because they've closed themselves off to learning. They are not growing. They are like robots, going through the motions. Two wrongs don't make a right. No one is claiming that government is all right, that the school system is all right, that the media is all right, etc. There's evil in all of those things too. If you do a search, you'll find that there are other web sites for all of those topics. Don't try to distract us from what we're here to discuss. All it does is water this down.

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

Listing of additional short Topics | Main Page