| Subject: | DEPARTURE - An Open Letter To My LDS Friends - Info on Smith and Kimball age 14 |
| Date: | Jun 06 2004 |
| Author: | price |
| Just sent this to a couple dozen LDS acquaintances.
I imagine a good number of you can relate to my story. ---------------- Recently, my family has been contacted by several caring members from the Ward, who have demonstrated a genuine concern for our well-being. The bewilderment that has been expressed, regarding our absence from church, has prompted a desire in me to relate the story of my personal search for truth and subsequent journey out of Mormonism. Hopefully, this account will provide you with some meaningful insight into our current status with the Church. What I am about to relate is my story only, as I cannot speak for my entire family. Faced with the explicit threat of church disciplinary action, I have remained silent regarding my historical findings, until now. Since I have recently resigned my membership in the LDS Church, thus removing the humiliating prospect of excommunication, I am now at liberty to speak openly of my journey out of the Church. Though my investigation is over, I fully recognize that, presented with the exact same set of facts, others may come to a different conclusion than my own. That is ok. My intent is not to convince, but rather to convey an accurate account of my departure from Mormonism. First and foremost, I want to make it clear that my separation from the Church had nothing to do with unworthiness or transgression. For 38 years I was 100% devoted to the LDS Church. During those years, I never once questioned the truthfulness of the gospel. My faithfulness was clearly demonstrated by my service in the Church, and anyone who has ever served with me (in the mission field, in Priesthood Quorum/Young Men’s presidencies, Scouting, Bishopric, etc.) can attest to my wholehearted dedication and commitment. Indeed, I entered into my doubts at a time when I was diligently striving to live my life in accordance with every aspect of the gospel – weekly family home evening, daily personal/family prayer and scripture study, regular church attendance, temple attendance, generous tithes and offerings, faithful home teaching, faithful fulfillment of calling as Scout Master, unwavering support for my wife in her calling as Primary President, etc. My doubts began as I drove to work one day, listening to Living Scriptures’ Dramatized Church History on CD. I can’t begin to describe the shock and disappointment I felt as I heard, for the first time, the reenactment of Joseph Smith taking Helen Mar Kimball as his polygamous wife at the tender age of 14. The account outlined the involvement of Helen’s father, Heber C. Kimball, in brokering the deal, as well as Joseph’s promise to Helen that this step would virtually guarantee the exaltation of herself and her father’s family in the Celestial Kingdom. Helen concluded that her sacrifice was a small price to "purchase" such a glorious reward. Upon hearing this, my heart sank, and I wept openly. That very day, with my sensibilities still smarting from what I had heard, I resolved to discover for myself the correctness of the principle of polygamy. I immediately commenced a humble regimen of prayer, fasting, and meditation, in search of an understanding of polygamy. I attended the temple for the express purpose of gaining some small insight into the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage, including the plurality of wives". I eventually modified my supplications to the Lord, asking for a simple feeling of peace to confirm that polygamy was acceptable in His sight, as I had given up on ever being able to understand it. I approached the Lord with as much faith as I could possibly muster, but my sincere and honest pleas for comfort and confirmation went unanswered. After three long months of silence, I concluded it was time to embark on a new search for truth - a search that would take me beyond the priesthood and Sunday school lesson material and beyond the faith promoting articles in the Ensign. [Later, when I shared this frustrating experience with Bishop W., he informed me that, "asking God for a confirmation as to whether or not something is true, without first believing, is tantamount to asking for a sign. God does not often give signs". This response surprised me. Even though I had believed (and at times defended) the principle of plural marriage my entire adult life, when I expressed a fervent desire to obtain divine confirmation regarding its more troubling aspects, I was told that I was asking for a sign. The only sign I was looking for was the peaceful confirmation of the Holy Ghost, speaking truth to my soul, providing me with a spiritual witness concerning the correctness of the principle of plural marriage. That witness never came.] As I began my new quest, I discussed my concerns with Bishop A. (my then current bishop) and asked him for assistance in locating suitable reference material. In response to my request, he recommended a book he found on DeseretBook.com entitled, "Mormon Polygamy, A History". I immediately secured a copy of the book and began my study. This book confirmed the accounts I had heard on the Church History CD’s and unfolded, in a very factual manner, the disturbing origins and practice of polygamy in the Mormon Church. But the most devastating blow to me (even more alarming than the tender age at which Joseph Smith took Helen Mar Kimball as his polygamous wife) was the revelation of the fact that Joseph married 11 women who were already married to other men. Confused and sickened by what I had learned, I became unable to sleep, eat, or concentrate at work. As more information came to light, the shock took a severe toll on my physical and emotional well-being. Continuing my investigation, I searched for church sources that could further corroborate the newly revealed facts surrounding Joseph Smith’s practice of plural marriage. My efforts led me to a May 1887 publication of an official Church periodical, "The Historical Record". Contained in volume VI of this periodical is an article written by President Joseph F. Smith and Andrew Jenson (Assistant Church Historian), which documents the plural marriages of Joseph Smith, listing twenty-seven plural wives who were sealed to Joseph during the last three years of his life. This list includes Joseph’s polyandrous unions (marriages to other men’s wives), as well as his numerous sealings to teenage brides. A search of the Family History Archives on lds.org enabled me to obtain the ancestral files for many of Joseph’s polygamous wives. Two of the ancestral files I retrieved from the Family History Archives are those for Helen Mar Kimball and Zina Diantha Huntington. One need only look at the dates to determine that Helen was married to Joseph at the age of 14 (the current age of my oldest daughter), and Zina was already married to Henry Jacobs at the time of her sealing to Joseph. Zina’s journal makes it clear that she and Henry were living together as husband and wife when Joseph secretly took her as his own plural wife. The extant diaries, autobiographical sketches, journals, and correspondences, of some of Joseph’s polygamous wives, further demonstrate the undeniable fact that there was a sexual dimension to their relationship with the Prophet. Canonized as holy scripture in the 132nd section of the Doctrine & Covenants, the principle of plural marriage is clearly delineated as a sacred tenant of the Mormon faith. The central nature of this tenant is demonstrated by the current practice of Mormon men being sealed for time and all eternity to a second wife, in cases where the first wife has passed away. Furthermore, Bruce R. McConkie succinctly confirmed this belief in his authoritative volume, Mormon Doctrine, wherein he stated: "Obviously the holy practice [of plural marriage] will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium." In light of these facts, I found the statement that, "it [polygamy] is not doctrinal", made by President Hinckley in a nationally televised interview with Larry King, to be very baffling. Joseph Smith stated on numerous occasions that he entered into the practice of polygamy, only after being threatened with death, by an angel with a drawn sword. After learning the true nature of Joseph’s involvement in polygamy, I had to ask myself the following questions: "Is it reasonable to assume that a kind, just, loving, moral God has such blatant disregard for the sanctity of marriage (and life itself) that He would have his humble servant slain for refusing to take another man’s wife as his own? Or, is it more likely that a mortal man lied?" The answer is so crystal clear to me now, that I find it extremely difficult to comprehend how some find it easier to hold God responsible for Joseph’s marriage to teenagers and married women, than it is to hold Joseph himself responsible. For me, this issue goes far beyond the character of Joseph Smith. It goes to the very nature of God. To believe Joseph’s account, is to profess belief in a God whose own actions go against every holy attribute He is supposed to possess - a God who, at one time, commands, "thou shalt not commit adultery" and "thou shalt not kill", and at a later time, in essence, commands, "thou shalt commit adultery or thou shalt be killed". I do not believe in a God whose nature is so mysterious, that He would feel it necessary to kill His anointed servant for refusing to commit adultery. I view the institution of marriage as a sacred trust, and consequently, I am fiercely loyal to my dear wife and absolutely devoted to my kids. For me, morality and goodness are absolutes – not fluid, ever-changing attributes, wholly dependent on time and circumstance. My conscience cries out in opposition to a married man marrying and having sex with other women (especially married women and young teenagers). That Joseph Smith, himself, engaged in this very conduct is virtually indisputable, and I believe his behavior is inexcusable. Shouldn't moral individuals possess a healthy degree of skepticism towards anyone professing a revelation from God as authorization to commit adultery? Joseph’s justification for his actions was clearly delineated in a written marriage proposal to Nancy Rigdon (daughter of Sydney Rigdon), wherein he stated, "Whatever God requires, is right, no matter what it is . . . even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation." Nancy courageously rejected Joseph’s proposition, despite his Godly justification. To be unaware of these happenings, as I was until recently, is one thing. But having read the first-hand accounts, as recorded by the actual participants in their letters and diaries, I can no longer plead ignorance. Knowing what I know and refusing to acknowledge it, would be a betrayal of my conscience. I refuse to accept the idea that God would demand such behavior of his anointed servant. To profess that He would, in my opinion, is to profess belief in an immoral, unjust God – a God that, I must say, I do not believe in. On the other hand, to claim that Joseph Smith acted on his own, in these immoral activities, is to undermine his character, credibility and authority, hence calling into question every word that has fallen from his lips. Either way, I flatly reject him as a servant of God. Though polygamy has been the catalyst for my journey out of the Church, it is by no means the sole reason for my disengagement from Mormonism. I have taken my pursuit of truth very seriously. It has included numerous trips to Salt Lake City, where I have conducted interviews and gained access to valuable historical material, including: the Book Of Commandments, early editions of the Doctrine & Covenants and Book Of Mormon, the Lectures On Faith, all 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, and other historical documents not readily available to the church membership at large. (The one and only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor, published June 7, 1844 - a copy of which, I currently have in my possession – was especially enlightening.) Suffice it to say that, the body of evidence I have examined does not support the Church’s claim to divine authority. I believe many Latter-day Saints would be stunned by the extraordinary doctrines expounded in numerous sermons, delivered by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, and faithfully recorded in the Journal Of Discourses. "Blood Atonement", which I found to be particularly disturbing, is one such doctrine that quickly comes to mind. In an address to LDS Institute instructors, Boyd K. Packer remarked, "there is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful". Elder Packer’s statement reveals, what I believe to be, a concerted effort by the brethren to suppress non-faith promoting historical facts. The withholding of these "not very useful" truths has, indeed, resulted in a more sanitized version of LDS Church history. The resultant transformed religious institution, known as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", is, undeniably, a wholesome organization. However, I now recognize that goodness and truth are not necessarily co-dependent. Heaven knows I am far from perfect, and I certainly have my share of faults, but I can say with confidence that I am a man of integrity. Being such, I expect honesty from others. And when it comes to an establishment of religion, claiming to be God’s only true Church on the face of the earth – to which I have selflessly devoted my entire life – I not only expect full disclosure, accuracy, and absolute honesty, I demand it. In this area, the Church has failed me, and the realization of such has been a keen disappointment. I completely agree with President Hinckley’s assessment that, "Either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground." His declaration leaves no possibility of the Church being partially true or mostly true. According to President Hinckley, all of it is true – every historical claim, every revelation, every verse of scripture, every prophetic utterance, every divinely sanctioned act – or none of it is true. My investigation of the past two years has led me to conclude the latter. Nevertheless, regardless of our divergent theological views, I believe we continue to share the same core values, and it is my sincere hope that you will still consider me to be your friend. Sincerely, Price |
| Subject: | Smith married girls before their puberty |
| Date: | Aug 18 21:41 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Many Mormon leaders and historians suggest that
sexual relations and the marriage of Joseph Smith and his youngest wife,
Helen Mar Kimball, fourteen at the time was "approaching
eligibility." There is no documentation to support the idea that marriage at fourteen was "approaching eligibility." Actually, marriages even two years later, at the age of sixteen, occurred occasionally but infrequently in Helen Mar's culture. Thus, girls marrying at fourteen, even fifteen, were very much out of the ordinary. Sixteen was comparatively rare, but not unheard of. American women began to marry in their late teens; around different parts of the United States the average age of marriage varied from nineteen to twenty-three. In the United States the average age of menarche (first menstruation) dropped from 16.5 in 1840 to 12.9 in 1950. More recent figures indicate that it now occurs on average at 12.8 years of age. The mean age of first marriages in colonial America was between 19.8 years to 23.7, most women were married during the age period of peak fecundity (fertility). Mean pubertal age has declined by some 3.7 years from the 1840’s. The psychological sexual maturity of Helen Mar Kimball in today’s average age of menarche (first menstruation) would put her psychological age of sexual maturity at the time of the marriage of Joseph Smith at 9.1 years old. (16.5 years-12.8 years =3.7 years) (12.8 years-3.7 years=9.1 years) The fact is Helen Mar Kimball's sexual development was still far from complete. Her psychological sexual maturity was not competent for procreation. The coming of puberty is regarded as the termination of childhood; in fact the term child is usually defined as the human being from the time of birth to the on-coming of puberty. Puberty the point of time at which the sexual development is completed. In young women, from the date of the first menstruation to the time at which she has become fitted for marriage, the average lapse of time is assumed by researchers to be two years. Age of eligibility for women in Joseph Smith’s time-frame would start at a minimum of 19 ½ years old. This would suggest that Joseph Smith (in his late thirties) had sexual relations and married several women before the age of eligibility, and some very close to the age of eligibility including: Fanny Alger 16 Sarah Ann Whitney 17 Lucy Walker 17 Flora Ann Woodworth 16 Emily Dow Partridge 19 Sarah Lawrence 17 Maria Lawrence 19 Helen Mar Kimball 14 Melissa Lott 19 Nancy M. Winchester [14 or 15] And then we have this testimony: "Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this." - Joseph Smith's close confidant and First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 1887 Short Bios of Smith's wives: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org Did Smith have sex with his wives?: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm Whatever the average age of menarche might have been in the mid 19th-century, the average age of marriage was around 20 for women and 22 for men. And a gap of 15 to 20 years or more between partners was very unusual, not typical. Whatever biology might have to say, according to the morals of his time, several of Joseph Smith's wives were still inappropriately young for him. It is a pure myth that 19th-century American girls married at age 12-14. You merely need to go to your local courthouse and ask to see the old 19th century marriage books. Take a look at and pay attention to the age at marriage. Sure a very few did, but it was far from the norm. The vast majority of women married after the age of twenty. The case is even true in pioneer Utah among first marriages. Mormon men in their twenties started out marrying someone their own age. Then later these older men married girls under twenty to be their plural wives. But the first wives were the age of the husband and married over the age of twenty. This is still the case is the rural Utah polygamist communities. References: Coale and Zelnik assume a mean age of marriage for white women of 20 (1963: 37). Sanderson's assumptions are consistent with a mean of 19.8 years (Sanderson 1979: 343). The Massachusetts family reconstitutions revealed somewhat higher mean ages. For Hingham, Smith reports an age at first marriage of 23.7 at the end of the eighteenth century (1972: Table 3, p. 177). For Sturbridge, the age for a comparable group was 22.46 years (Osterud and Fulton 1976: Table 2, p. 484), and in Franklin County it was 23.3 years (Temkin-Greener, H., and A.C. Swedlund. 1978. Fertility Transition in the Connecticut Valley:1740-1850. Population Studies 32 (March 1978):27-41.: Table 6, p. 34). Jack Larkin, The Reshaping of Everyday Life, 1790-1840 (New York: Harper & Row, 1988), 63; Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, Good Wives: Image and Reality in the Lives of Women in Northern New England, 1650-1750 (NY: Oxford University Press, 1980), 6; Nancy F. Cott, "Young Women in the Second Great Awakening in New England," Feminist Studies 3 (1975): 16. Larkin writes, Dr. Dorothy V. Whipple, Dynamics of Development: Euthenic Pediatrics (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1966) |
| Subject: | From the Mailbag: What kind of parents gave their daughters to Joseph Smith? |
| Date: | Aug 20 21:50 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| From a curious lurker here, who e-mailed me
directly: "Deconstructor, it seems to me that I read somewhere that JS really "demanded" the mother of [Helen Kimball] but the husband agreed to give JS the daughter [Helen]. If this is true...what kind of parents did the girl have? Correct me if I am wrong." My response: That is correct, Smith first demanded Heber C. Kimball's wife, but ended up getting the fourteen year-old daughter, Helen. Here's from the historical record: Heber C. Kimball's Wife, Vilate “During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test." - Official Biography of Heber C. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer." By Stanley B. Kimball, page 93. There is a mountain of historical documentation that Joseph Smith demanded other men's wives. Even FAIR has written a paper on this. Some women agreed, some refused. What happened to them afterwards is very interesting: See: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/Joseph_Smth_mens_wives.htm You ask what kind of parents Helen had. Well, this is what her father, Heber C. Kimball, taught about polygamy from the pulpit: "I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality [of wives] looks fresh, young, and sprightly." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses Vol 5, page 22 These people were religious fanatics. Just like those that burned at Waco following David Koresh or those who drank poison kool-aid at the command of Jim Jones, these Mormons were entranced by Joseph Smith and did what he said. At the same time, you can understand why those that were not enamored with Smith wanted him castrated or dead. |
| Subject: | Decon, what was Heber C. Kimball's piggish quote about righteous Mormon men . . . |
| Subject: | The stud Heber C. Kimball and his "cows" |
| Date: | Aug 20 22:27 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| I haven't found that one yet, Steve. But I did find
some other morsels or Mormon goodness: "I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101. Speaking to a group of departing missionaries... "Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30. and again... "I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen" - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256. "Some quietly listen to those who speak against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203 |
| Subject: | Re: The stud Heber C. Kimball and his "cows" |
| Date: | Aug 20 22:47 |
| Author: | exmoron |
| Mail Address: |
| "I think no more of taking another wife than
I do of buying a cow." ! "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." !! I don't normally show my TBM family things I find on this board, because I know it won't do any good, and they'll just resent it. But I can't help but wonder what they would think if they saw these quotes? Wow. |
| Subject: | The church's own record shows a terrible lack of the Holy Ghost |
| Date: | Aug 21 10:22 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| The Church tells the membership that their leaders
have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. They believe church
leaders hear the whisperings of the Spirit, which means they should be
trusted. Here's an example of this common Mormon belief: "I have found in these Brethren seated before you the fulfillment in their lives of the promise given to the Prophet Joseph Smith “...let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion." (D&C 121:45-46.)" "I have watched them armed with the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, taking on enormous work loads at an age when most men would be confined to rocking chairs, and engaging in strenuous travel schedules with great enthusiasm to be anxiously engaged in building the kingdom of God. Then by observation, the realization has come to me that this great Spirit that blesses them in their activities is not a special gift to them alone, but is available to all mankind if they will but be partakers and earnestly seek it and be humbly guided by it. “The office of the Holy Ghost is to enlighten the mind, to purify and sanctify the soul, to incite to good works, and to reveal the things of God.” (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 167.)" Now look at the actions and teachings of these men who have the "constant companionship" of the Spirit of God: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_history.htm If God lets his chosen leaders get away with all of that, then why should anyone trust them or God? There is a consistent pattern you see in church history - its leaders aren't inspired in their official priesthood callings. They are no better than leaders of any other "apostate" church. |
| Subject: | I find the entire polygamy story to be sordid and unworthy of a loving God. |
| Subject: | What a refreshing letter....mirrors my feelings of disappointment at learning the truth. |
| Subject: | Re: DEPARTURE - An Open Letter To My LDS Friends |
| Date: | Jun 06 08:59 |
| Author: | Michael |
| It'll be interesting to see if any of your friends reply to you either positively or negatively. Please let us know how this goes, OK? |
| Subject: | Re: DEPARTURE - An Open Letter To My LDS Friends |
| Date: | Jun 06 10:42 |
| Author: | price |
| I sent this out on Tuesday. So far, I've received
two positive affirmations of continued friendship. Other than that,
there has been no response. I'll keep you posted. Price |
| Subject: | Price you put into words my feelings of why I left as well. I couldnt betray my conscience of integrity. |
| Subject: | You are well-intentioned but I can't imagine it going over well. |
| Date: | Jun 06 09:26 |
| Author: | alex |
| You are well-intentioned but I can't imagine it
going over well with any real TBMs. You are thinking "outside the
box". The rules of the BOX are: (1) In order to understand truth one must have the SPIRIT(tm). (2) If someone questions or criticizes or thinks too deeply on what the Brethren say or anything they've ever said then they'll lose the SPIRIT(tm). Conclusion: Anyone you questions or criticizes or thinks too deeply on anything that the brethren have said or say today cannot understand truth so they must not be taken seriously. No other conclusion is possible if one is thinking IN THE BOX. Caution: The SPIRIT(tm) is a trademark of Intellectual Reserve, Inc., a wholely owned subsidiary of Jesus's kingdom here on earth. Any unauthorized use of the SPIRIT(tm) shall be litigated by the Kirton and McConkie law firm. |
| Subject: | What a great letter!! |
| Date: | Jun 06 10:01 |
| Author: | anon |
| I might forward it to my brother, if it's ok with
you, as a well-worded rejoinder to the propaganda he and his wife
constantly send me. Thank you for taking such a thoughtful approach to the doctrines you were taught. It'll not only help you and your family see things for what they are, but hopefully the knowledge you accrued will benefit others who seek Reality over the Church's Fantasy. |
| Subject: | Tailoring the wording of one's message to fit one's audience is often useful...... |
| Date: | Jun 06 13:32 |
| Author: | Langdon |
| My writings to TBM friends & family often are
framed by Morgist concepts and cliches and thought-trains that now feel
foreign to me, but which I choose to use anyway because I think it will
help them better understand the point I wish to make. Think of it as translating to a foreign language. If you are biligual but the person to whom you are talking speaks only one language, you speak to them in their language even if it is not your preferred/first tongue. I recently had one of my parables critiqued for a similar reason - I was framing it using certain Mormon assumptions that I no longer hold. That was to help them understand, and was not to imply that I accept those assumptions. |
| Subject: | Re: DEPARTURE - An Open Letter To My LDS Friends |
| Date: | Jun 06 11:31 |
| Author: | dimmesdale |
| Good letter! Interestingly, it was probably that very audiotape that grabbed my attention as well, and I know what you mean when you say, you wept. It was a real straw that broke the camel's back for me. I wonder how many others were swayed by that tidbit of information from church history, and I wonder if the church leaders wish they would have closed the doors to the historian's office just a bit sooner. |
| Subject: | Well done! |
| Date: | Jun 06 12:54 |
| Author: | Lost no more |
| Your letter is very well-written treatise which
parallels the issues that got me searching. I am indebted to NPR or
National Public Radio for bringing these questions to mind and then the
internet for pointing the way and providing me with the in-depth answers
to my questions. I'm over the anger now but still marvel at the way the morganization manipulates the truth and controls the members' day-to-day thought processes. Lost no more |
| Subject: | DEPARTURE - An Open Letter To My LDS Friends Reply |
| Date: | Jun 06 14:45 |
| Author: | sick bastard |
| The greatest demonstrations of the errors of
Polygamy is Emma Smith. Even after the many "Revelations" that
were directed to her and her calling as "an Elect Lady" she
saw Polygamy for what it is, an immoral act against the laws of
marriage. She chose to give up all she had to ensure that her children
did not follow the "Lord's" Church in practice or location.
She found solace in her later years living a pious life and in
accordance with the religion of her choice. NO GREATER BOND EXISTS IN
THIS LIFE THAN THE BOND OF MARRIAGE. It is a sick and perverted
individual who seeks to gratify his lust and sexual desires in the name
of God. |
| Subject: | Re: I don't know enough about history |
| Date: | Jun 06 15:12 |
| Author: | Honeybee |
| From what I've heard, during that particular time period, the average marrying age was early to mid twenties. Can anyone verify? |
| Subject: | I noted a brilliant controversy in your Bishops reply,,, |
| Date: | Jun 06 14:15 |
| Author: | Lost My Faith |
| You've stated your Bishop said, "asking God for
a confirmation as to whether or not something is true, without first
believing, is tantamount to asking for a sign. God does not often give
signs". Wait a minute here!! This doesn't compute !! As an RM -- Return Mercenary -- I recall the testimonial clinching of the deal, to get the contact to believe by using Moroni's promise -- commit them to pray and ask if the Book of Mormon is true, and Joseph smith is a prophet. The purpose was to get the person to believe in something they did not yet believe. Your Bishop's statement has completely contradicted Moroni's promise. Moroni's promise also conflicts with the NT script which says something to the affect of "god doesn't like sign seekers, and woe unto those who must seek signs, but it is by faith, etc, etc," All the Missionaries can go home now. You're engaged in a lose-lose situation. |
| Subject: | Sarah Kimball to JS polygamous proposition: "Teach it to someone else." |
| Date: | Jun 06 06:52 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| I admire the women who had the self-respect to
rebuff JS' advances. I just finished reading some accounts on Decon's
website detailing JS' propositioning other men's wives. I particularly
was amused and impressed by Sarah Kimball's response when JS tried to
instruct her on the virtues of polygamy: "Teach it to someone
else." From Decon's website: "Hiram Kimball's wife, Sarah Sarah M. Kimball, a prominent Nauvoo and Salt Lake City Relief Society leader was also approached by the Prophet in early 1842 despite her solid 1840 marriage to Hiram Kimball. Sarah later recalled that "Joseph Smith taught me the principle of marriage for eternity, and the doctrine of plural marriage. He said that in teaching this he realized that he jeopardized his life; but God had revealed it to him many years before as a privilege with blessings, now God had revealed it again and instructed him to teach with commandment, as the Church could travel [progress] no further without the introduction of this principle." ("LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887) Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet's invitation, asking that he "teach it to someone else." Although she kept the matter quiet, her husband and Smith evidently had difficulties over Smith's proposal. On 19 May 1842, at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then "threw across the room" a revelation to Kimball which declared that "Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions" against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he "shall be accursed." Sarah remained a lifetime member of the Church and a lifelong wife to Hiram Kimball. - "LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887, Official History of the Church 5: 12-13," |
| Subject: | This tells us more about Joseph Smith than the Book of Mormon |
| Date: | Jun 06 10:49 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Most Mormons think the Book of Mormon, if it is what
it says it is, demonstrates that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God.
Afterall, he's the one that "translated" it. So TBMs base
their testimonies of Joseph Smith on the Book of Mormon. But this one episode recorded in Church History tells us much more about the true nature of Joseph Smith than the Book of Mormon does. Thanks for highlighting this, because it really does say a lot about Joseph Smith's true character. Also, Joseph Smith's letter to a would-be teen bride justifying his attempted seduction is also revealing - especially since it also comes from the official History of the Church: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/smith_letter.htm This guy has sexual predator written all over him! |
| Subject: | Joseph Smith's true character is further revealed..... |
| Date: | Jun 06 14:55 |
| Author: | Randy J. |
| by directions he wrote in a letter he sent to a
prospective "plural wife," Sarah Ann Whitney, and her parents
on August 18, 1842: "I am now at Carlos Grainger's.....all three of you can come and see me in the fore part of the night, let Brother Whitney come a little ahead, and nock at the south east corner of the house at the window; it is next to the cornfield; I have a room intirely by myself.....the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty.....Only be careful to escape observation as much as possible....." Sneaking around at night to hook up with other women, and worrying about keeping it secret from his wife. Old Joe was right up there with Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart. |
| Subject: | Yikes! If all this information is readily available, then how on earth does the church go on? |
| Date: | Jun 06 15:54 |
| Author: | the dreaded single adult |
| I'd alway been told that, although JS "received
the revelation" about plural marriage, he never practiced it--the
actual *practice* started with BY and co. After reading the stuff I've read on this board, I can't believe that none of this is more widely known. Makes me sick... |
| Subject: | Here is an excerpt from Benjamin F. Johnson's autobiography... |
| Date: | Jun 06 15:52 |
| Author: | Brian B. |
| Relating how he was approached on the subject for
the hand of his sister. The other parts leading up to it are included to
show his initial exposure to the doctrine, and his general gulliblity
and pride involving the prophet. I think the link has been discontinued however... http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Lds/LDS/Early-Saints/BFJohnson.html About the time of his sickness and death a spirit of fanaticism arose and formed a party, who adopted him as its oracle, and almost as their God; claimed he had revealed to them the celestial law of marriage. Some of them being of the respectable and more wealthy class, I was induced on one occasion to attend their meeting, and being astonished at their doctrines I rebuked the spirit they were of, and by prophecy told them that without speedily turning from it, they would become disgraceful maniacs upon the streets, which proved more than true, as the same week men and women of previous respectability were now in free love, disgracefully and insanely mixed up in the public street-- apparently a trick of the devil to forestall with disgrace and bring contempt upon a sacred and holy law that the Lord was about to reveal through His Prophet in Nauvoo. . . . . We left Kirtland the first of June 1842 and with the beautiful weather and good roads, we had hopes of a safe and pleasant journey. But our animals were young and spirited and we had need both to watch and pray, for we were often in great danger. An incident or two I will relate to show that the Angel promised was always near. Soon after our start, our horses still fresh and mettlesome, descended a long, steep and dangerous dugway, with my wife and sister in the wagon. Just at the bottom as I drew rein upon the level, the ring from the neck-yoke with the wagon tongue dropped to the ground. The thought of the certainty of deaths had it dropped a minute before, almost dazed me--but the Angel was there. Another day, on appearance of a storm we put up at a tavern. I drove the covered wagon in which my wife and self slept, under a large swinging signboard hung between heavy posts, my father and sisters finding rooms in the tavern while we occupied the wagon. In the terrible night storm lightning shattered posts and signboard, piling the debris upon the front of the wagon. Although for a time we felt ourselves killed, we were out all right in the morning, with the footprints of the same Angel clearly in view. . . . . I was now selling goods, keeping a tavern, and doing all the Church business for that town, which was second only to Nauvoo, and I was growing not a little into the idea of getting rich. Yet I did not forget that I was an elder, and not only took part in our meetings at home, but as often as I found opportunity I would preach in the surrounding country to the outside community. The Prophet often came to our town, but after my arrival, he lodged in no house but mine, and I was proud of his partiality and took great delight in his society and friendship. When with us, there was no lack of amusement; for with jokes, games, etc., he was always ready to provoke merriment, one phase of which was matching couplets in rhyme, by which we were at times in rivalry; and his fraternal feeling, in great degree did away with the disparity of age or greatness of his calling. I can now see, as President George A. Smith afterwards said, that I was then really "the bosom friend and companion of the Prophet Joseph." I was as welcome at the Mansion as at my own house, and on one occasion when at a full table of his family and chosen friends, he placed me at his right hand and introduced me as his "friend, Brother B. F. Johnson, at whose house he sat at a better table than his own." Sometimes when at my house I asked him questions relating to past, present and future; some of his answers were taken by Brother William Clayton, who was then present with him, and are now recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants; the one as to what the Lord told him in relation to seeing his face at 85 years of age; also the one as to the earth becoming as a sea of glass, molten with fire. [D&C 130: 9, 14-17] Other questions were asked when Brother Clayton was not present, one of which I will relate: I asked where the nine and a half tribes of Israel were. "Well," said he, "you remember the old caldron or potash kettle you used to boil maple sap in for sugar, don't you?" I said yes. "Well," said he, "they are in the north pole in a concave just the shape of that kettle. And John the Revelator is with them, preparing them for their return." Many other things of a public or private nature I might here record, but will only note one or two, those pertaining to our own family. . . . . About the first of April, 1843, the Prophet with some of the Twelve and others came to Macedonia to hold a meeting, which was to convene in a large cabinet shop owned by Brother Joseph E. and myself, and as usual he put up at my house. Early on Sunday morning he said, "Come Brother Bennie, let us have a walk." I took his arm and he led the way into a by-place in the edge of the woods surrounded by tall brush and trees. Here, as we sat down upon a log he began to tell me that the Lord had revealed to him that plural or patriarchal marriage was according to His law; and that the Lord had not only revealed it to him but had commanded him to obey it; that he was required to take other wives; and that he wanted my Sister Almira for one of them, and wished me to see and talk to her upon the subject. If a thunderbolt had fallen at my feet I could hardly have been more shocked or amazed. He saw the struggle in my mind and went on to explain. But the shock was too great for me to comprehend anything, and in almost an agony of feeling I looked him squarely in the eye, and said, while my heart gushed up before him, "Brother Joseph, this is all new to me; it may all be true--you know, but I do not. To my education it is all wrong, but I am going, with the help of the Lord to do just what you say, with this promise to you--that if ever I know you do this to degrade my sister I will kill you, as the Lord lives." He looked at me, oh, so calmly, and said, "Brother Benjamin, you will never see that day, but you shall see the day you will know it is true, and you will fulfill the law and greatly rejoice in it." And he said, "At this morning's meeting, I will preach you a sermon that no one but you will understand. And furthermore, I will promise you that when you open your mouth to your sister, it shall be filled." At the meeting he read the parable of the Talents, and showed plainly that to him that hath shall be given more, and from him that had but one should be taken that he seemed to have, and given to him who had ten. This, so far as I could understand, might relate to families, but to me there was a horror in the idea of speaking to my sister upon such a subject, the thought of which made me sick. But I had promised, and it must be done. I did not remember his words, and have faith that light would come, I only thought, "How dark it all looks to me.' But I must do it, and so told my sister I wished to see her in a room by herself, where I soon found her seated. I stood before her trembling, my knees shaking, but I opened my mouth and my heart opened to the light of the Lord, my tongue was loosened and I was filled with the Holy Ghost. I preached a sermon that forever converted me and her also to the principle, even though her heart was not yet won by the Prophet. And so I had great joy after my tribulation. He had asked me to bring my sister to the city, which I soon did, where he saw her at my sister's, the Widow Sherman, who had already been sealed to him by proxy. His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law." He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet. Soon after this he was at my house again, where he occupied my Sister Almira's room and bed, and also asked me for my youngest sister, Esther M. I told him she was promised in marriage to my wife's brother. He said, "Well, let them marry, for it will all come right." The orphan girl--Mary Ann Hale--that my mother had raised from a child, was now living with us, of nearly the same age as my sister, and I asked him if he would not like her, as well as Almira. He said, "No, but she is for you. You keep her and take her for your wife and you will be blessed." This seemed like hurrying up my blessings pretty fast, but the spirit of it came upon me, and from that hour I thought of her as a wife that the Lord had given me. In lighting him to bed one night he showed me his garments and explained that they were such as the Lord made for Adam from skins, and gave me such ideas pertaining to endowments as he thought proper. He told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion. In the evening he called me and my wife to come and sit down, for he wished to marry us according to the Law of the Lord. I thought it a joke, and said I should not marry my wife again, unless she courted me, for I did it all the first time. He chided my levity, told me he was in earnest, and so it proved, for we stood up and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. |
Subject: Bishop Come over last night and....
Date: Jan 29 12:28
Author: Battle-Ax
he had material about polygamy and trying to explain away JS and his wives. he is trying to get us active again. First he admitted that there are no answers to this problem. He said he knows about this stuff and he has had to put it on a shelf and look at all the good the church does in his life. Then my wife said she just couldn't get over all the women JS took as wives and the ones that were 14 and 15. Than the Bishop interrupted her and said you know there were only two that were 15 and under. Me and my wife were stunned, so he only seduced two under 15, how nice, that must make him a moral icon we can all follow. So I guess the churches position on child molestation is as long as it is two or less that is ok. Needless to say not much progress was made in getting us back. Only two!!!! LOL I will remember this if I do come back, but Bishop I had an affair but it was only two times, give me a break.
Subject: Well, at least your bishop isn't in abject denial .....
Date: Jan 29 12:55
Author: Randy J.
Mail Address:
.....that Joseph Smith was involved with ANY teenaged girls, or that the relationships appeared improper. In years past, most TBMs would just wholesale deny any of it, because they haven't been taught about it from official church sources.
Fortunately, it is books like Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness", van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History," and information available on the internet that forces TBMs to consider the subject more seriously. They can no longer dismiss the information as "anti-Mormon lies."
Your bishop's defense of "Well, Smith was only involved with two teenaged girls" is hilarious. As though it's okay for a married 30-plus-year-old man to have amorous relationships with two teenaged girls, but any more than that, and we'd have to draw the line.
With that attitude, how must your bishop feel about Smith's "plural marriages" to at least eleven women who were currently married to other men? And the evidence that he had sex with, and fathered children by, several of them?
Or Brigham Young's teaching that a married woman could leave her husband for a higher-ranking priesthood holder, and have sex and children with him, without bothering to get a divorce?
How about the 19th-century culture of older, married Mormon men with high priesthood rank courting and "plural marrying" women much younger than themselves, thus reducing the pool of marriageable women for younger Mormon men?
As for your bishop's comment "he has had to put it on a shelf and look at all the good the church does in his life," my opinion is that polygamy, which is just one of numerous egregious aspects of Mormon doctrine and practice---is by itself more than enough to force decent people of conscience to abandon the religion in spite of whatever other "good" the church does.
Your bishop's attitude is similar to WWll-era Italians who praised Mussolini for ensuring that the trains ran on time. Whatever "good" the Mormon church does can never wash away its fraudulent origins or scandalous history. Hopefully, your bishop will one day "get a clue."
Subject: For Tammy G
Date: Jan 30 02:07
Author: Reinventing Grace
Here's a quick introduction to doctrine and polygamy. You'll need your D&C and a copy of the Old Testament.
1. Crack open your trusty D&C to Section 132. Read V.1. Note that it states that the revelation is given because Joe was wondering why the Lord justified those prophets of old in having many wives and concubines. And, footnotes a and b give a few Bible verses where those fine old prohpets of the OT had scores of wives. (It also suggests looking at the "concubine" section in the index).
2. Now, check out a few other verses in 132. Read the whole thing if you have that much patience. Here's a few questions to answer in your scripture study tonight:
a) the intro says "it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831." What events in the historical record might those be? Why aren't they listed?
b) verses 2-12. How inportant is it that The Saints live by the revelation of D&C 132?
c) verse 20. What does this say about GBH's 1997 comment about Mormons becoming Gods? (answer--since God says you have to be polygamous to become a God, modern Mormons won't make the cut, so 'ol Gordo was correct after all, scripturally speaking).
d. verses 32 - 39. The Lord gives Joe a detailed account of all the other prophets He has commanded to take concubines. Extensive footnotes in this section for the studious individual to learn all about concubines in the OT.
e. verse 40. Joe's commandment to restore all things. What things of "all things" do you suppose the Lord is reffereing to. Could it be the discussion He presented in verses 32-29? Could it plausibly be anything else?
f. verses 41-44 Detailed instruction to Joe on how wives are to be shopped around among the priesthood elite.
g. verses 45-50 What will happen to Joe if he doesn't hurry along and "restore all things?"
h. verses 51-56 Notes for Emma:
. . * is this program for you?
. . * what kind of chicks will Joe get (a: virtuous and pure chicks)
. . * how will this program affect Joe? (a: amongst other things, it will "strengthen" him).
. . * what will The Lord do to Emma if she doesn't go along with it 100% (a: destroy her).
i. verses 57-65 More details on implementation
v 61, what restrictions are there on the women the prieshood elite are to marry?
v 62, could each member of the priesthood elite marry ten virgins?
v 63, What will The Lord do to any of these 10+ former virgins if they later decide they'd prefer a different hubby?
j. verse 66. The Lord promises He will reveal more later. But, note that this was the last revelation ever given to Joe. Why didn't Joe ever get any more? multiple choice:
(a) He was Too Busy
(b) He got shot
(c) a and b
Hope this helps
RG
Subject: Stupid attitudes....
Date: Jan 30 06:36
Author: Doxigrafix
Randy J. wrote...
>>Your bishop's attitude is similar to WWll-era Italians who praised Mussolini for ensuring that the trains ran on time. Whatever "good" the Mormon church does can never wash away its fraudulent origins or scandalous history. Hopefully, your bishop will one day "get a clue."<<
*************************************************
I know people who otherwise seem sensible who say things like, "There was NO CRIME in Nazi Germany!" as if that makes everything okay, or like killing twelve million people was NOT a crime. One was a supervisor of my husband's.
I had fun ripping him a new one till my husband dragged me away. I was quite angry with my husband for doing that but after I calmed down I realized that he had to work with the guy, who did have the power to make his life miserable.
Subject: Well, Tammy, there was polygamy but God didn't approve . . .
Date: Jan 30 01:45
Author: Ms.
In the Bible Sarah was married to Abraham and she didn't get pregnant. She was told in a vision that she would conceive eventually but she didn't have enough faith and insisted her hubby sleep with the maid Hagar. Hagar had kids, and then Sarah did too.
Hagar's kids became evil horrors which is implied to be Sarah's fault for not believing a woman of 90 (or something) could reproduce.
Subject: There is no documentation to support the idea that marriage at fourteen was "approaching eligibility"
Date: Jan 30 02:26
Author: Adieu LDS
Many Mormons leaders and historians suggest that sexual relations and the marriage of Joseph Smith and his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball, fourteen at the time was "approaching eligibility." I set out to find the facts. There is no documentation to support the idea that marriage at fourteen was "approaching eligibility." Actually, marriages even two years later, at the age of sixteen, occurred occasionally but infrequently in Helen Mar's culture. Thus, girls marrying at fourteen, even fifteen, were very much out of the ordinary. Sixteen was comparatively rare, but not unheard of. American women began to marry in their late teens; around different parts of the United States the average age of marriage varied from nineteen to twenty-three.
In the United States the average age of menarche (first menstruation) dropped from 16.5 in 1840 to 12.9 in 1950. More recent figures indicate that it now occurs on average at 12.8 years of age. The mean age of first marriages in colonial America was between 19.8 years to 23.7, most women were married during the age period of peak fecundity (fertility).
Mean pubertal age has declined by some 3.7 years from the 1840’s.
The psychological sexual maturity of Helen Mar Kimball in today’s average age of menarche (first menstruation) would put her psychological age of sexual maturity at the time of the marriage of Joseph Smith at 11.0 years old. (16.5 years-12.8 years =3.7 years) (14.7 years-3.7 years=11.0 years)
The fact is Helen Mar Kimball’s sexual development was still far from complete. Her psychological sexual maturity was not competent for procreation. The coming of puberty is regarded as the termination of childhood; in fact the term child is usually defined as the human being from the time of birth to the on-coming of puberty. Puberty the point of time at which the sexual development is completed. In young women, from the date of the first menstruation to the time at which she has become fitted for marriage, the average lapse of time is assumed by researchers to be two years.
Age of eligibility for women in Joseph Smith’s timeframe would start at a minimum of 19 ½ years old.
This would suggest that Joseph Smith had sexual relations and married several women before the age of eligibility, and some very close to the age of eligibility including:
Fanny Alger 16
Sarah Ann Whitney 17
Lucy Walker 17
Flora Ann Woodworth 16
Emily Dow Partridge 19
Sarah Lawrence 17
Maria Lawrence 19
Helen Mar Kimball 14
Melissa Lott 19
Nancy M. Winchester [14?]
References:
Coale and Zelnik assume a mean age of marriage for white women of 20 (1963: 37). Sanderson's assumptions are consistent with a mean of 19.8 years (Sanderson 1979: 343). The Massachusetts family reconstitutions revealed somewhat higher mean ages. For Hingham, Smith reports an age at first marriage of 23.7 at the end of the eighteenth century (1972: Table 3, p. 177). For Sturbridge, the age for a comparable group was 22.46 years (Osterud and Fulton 1976: Table 2, p. 484), and in Franklin County it was 23.3 years (Temkin-Greener, H., and A.C. Swedlund. 1978. Fertility Transition in the Connecticut Valley:1740-1850. Population Studies 32 (March 1978):27-41.: Table 6, p. 34).
Jack Larkin, The Reshaping of Everyday Life, 1790-1840 (New York: Harper & Row, 1988), 63; Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, Good Wives: Image and Reality in the Lives of Women in Northern New England, 1650-1750 (NY: Oxford University Press, 1980), 6; Nancy F. Cott, "Young Women in the Second Great Awakening in New England," Feminist Studies 3 (1975): 16. Larkin writes,
Dr. Dorothy V. Whipple, Dynamics of Development: Euthenic Pediatrics (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1966),
Related Topics
10. Denial of Polygamy 26. Smith's Polygamy 126 Leaving Bountiful - Polygamy Film 216 Child Brides - Polygamy
218 Life in Polygamy - 2003 338 A Personal Look at Polygamy 199 Joseph Smith's Wives
187 Angels Coerced Smith into Sex? 262 Share Your Wife with J. Smith?
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |