| Subject: | A Mormon says temple signs and tokens hidden from Ex-Mormons?! |
| Date: | Apr 24 19:18 2004 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| TBM Eavesdropper said: [TBM
= True Believing Mormon] "The signs and tokens themselves are meaningless unless you understand the symbolism behind them. You can video tape the entire temple ceremony, show it on national tv and you have revealed nothing. Notice we are instructed never to reveal certain parts of the endowment. There is a reason why the word reveal is used instead of the word repeat. The temple ceremony has been repeated many times since the very beginning in newspapers, radio and now the Internet. Yet, nothing has been revealed. This is because the deeper meaning is hidden to the world, including ex mo's who used to attend the temple." What scriptures or modern-day teachings of Mormon Church leaders does TBM Eavesdropper have to back up his absurd claim? Unless TBM Eavesdropper can cite some official source for this silliness, his ideas about the temple ceremony are pure conjecture on his part and FALSE DOCTRINE. In fact, the Mormon Prophet that revealed the temple signs and tokens in the first place doesn't agree with TBM Eavesdropper that they are "meaningless." Indeed, the Prophet Brigham Young taught that the signs and tokens taught in the temple are what get you into heaven: "Let me give you the definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p.31. (see also 2:315; 5:133; 6:63, 154-55; 8:339; 9:25-26, 91; 10:172; 11:27; 12:164 18:132; 19:250) It's crystal clear that the temple signs and token are to be taken literally and have no symbolic-only use. In fact, the church teaches that we literally must give the key words, the signs and the tokens to the angels guarding heaven. Brigham Young did not say we would have to give the guards the symbolic meaning behind the signs and tokens. Nor has any other church leader said this. TBM Eavedropper is making this up as he goes along! If I'm wrong, I welcome TBM Eavesdropper to tell us where he found the doctrine to back up his teaching. When have church leaders taught this distinction between "reveal" and "repeat" temple signs and tokens? TBME would have us believe that there's no wrong or harm in "repeating" temple signs and token because what really matters is the "revealed" symbolic meaning behind them. Where do you come up with this stuff TBME? Your teaching is not what the Living Prophet and President of the Church has declared about the sacredness of the temple! The Prophet Hinckley said the language itself, not the symnbolic meaning, must be kept secret: "I remind you of the absolute obligation to not discuss outside the temple that which occurs within the temple. Sacred matters deserve sacred consideration. We are under obligation, binding and serious, to not use temple language or speak of temple matters outside." "I first went to the temple fifty-seven years ago. It was different from any other experience I had had in the Church. A young man of my association went about the same time. Thereafter, he was wont to use phrases from the language of the temple in a frivolous way. It was offensive. It was a betrayal of a sacred trust. I have watched him through the years. Once faithful, he has drifted from all Church activity and forsaken the faith of his fathers. I think that much of what has happened to him began with that small irreverential thing that he did in trivializing language which is not trivial." (It sounds like Hinckley is describing TBM Eavesdropper's attitude regarding sacred temple signs and tokens.) Hinckley went on so say: "Please, brethren, do not discuss outside of the temple that which occurs in the temple. While there, you are at liberty to do so. If you have questions, you may speak with the temple president or one of his counselors. But when you leave the doors of the House of the Lord, be true to a sacred trust to speak not of that which is holy and sanctified." - Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, “Keeping the Temple Holy,” Ensign, May 1990, page 49 It looks like TBM Eavesdropper's condition is getting worse and he is now in the full grips of Apostasy. Welcome to the club, my friend! |
| Subject: | Deeper knowledge is a crock |
| Date: | Apr 24 19:42 |
| Author: | Nightingale |
| Deconstructor wrote: > On another thread, TBM Eavesdropper said: > "The signs and tokens themselves are meaningless unless you understand the symbolism behind them. The temple ceremony has been repeated many times since the very beginning in newspapers, radio and now the Internet. Yet, nothing has been revealed. This is because the deeper meaning is hidden to the world, including ex mo's who used to attend the temple." Regarding the "deeper meaning" being hidden from the world, MY GOOD HECK, it is apparently also hidden from church members! WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT? I can clearly remember being an earnest temple-going Mormon convert. NEVER did I understand any "symbolism", from the missionaries, my TBM friends, gospel doctrine class, temple prep class, Sunday School discussions, Sac mtg talks, before or after my own first temple trip, nor did the murky water become clearer in subsequent temple trips. The reason I went to the temple so many times, in different cities, was my hope of having the "deeper meaning" revealed to me. I could not have been more sincere in my search. I do not believe it is so "sacred" and I was so "unrighteous" that my temple participation and contemplations coughed up NADA for my further enlightenment. It's very convenient for the Q12 that members are instructed not to discuss the temple even with other members outside the temple, yet within its walls, there is no time to think, never mind discuss anything. Talking is discouraged. Questions? Forget it. I can't count how many times my TBM friend told me "We'll talk about it in the temple" when I would ask her questions. And how much cog diss is induced when we'd go repeatedly and never do it there either! The only chance was in the Celestial Room except talking is not encouraged and also, you're rushed outta there. My most vivid memory of the temple is when a mishie I knew accompanied me, after his mission. We entered an empty sealing room to talk about some of my "issues" and were abruptly booted out of there by a temple matron for being "disrespectful". HOW is talking about the church and trying to understand the temple DISRESPECTFUL???????? That still bugs me. An empty room is so special and sacred that living, breathing humans can't enter to talk about what the GOOD HECK is so BLOODY special about it???????????? It is grossly inaccurate to indicate that exmos are so "wicked" and "fallen" that they are now forbidden access to some previous divine knowledge they had. Grrrrrrrrrr - that kind of comment makes me angry!!! TBM-EV - if you really believe this I am surprised. It is NOT TRUE. I hope you get the chance to read a lot of Decon's posts and others here. They can make you think. If you disagree and have back-up to prove your point, let's hear it. |
| Subject: | I was never "worthy" to attend the temple. I would have been pretty... |
| Date: | Apr 24 20:32 |
| Author: | zman44 |
| pissed off if I had put myself through what was
necessary to get there and then experienced... what? The temple experience I imagined does not in the least manner resemble what I've been able to glean from this and other sites. It sounds totally crappy. I had some temple attending TBMs tell me that maybe it wasn't all that--but sheesh, I had no idea. I would see pictures of the celestial room and imagine deep spiritual insights being communicated there by the temple-goers, lounging around there for hours. Hell, I even have a temple prep manual lying around somewhere. I went to that for about a week or two. I wonder what part of me, after 25 years, didn't allow me there--didn't agree to subject itself to the required rigors. I thank that part of my being; and the part that felt bad about it is disappearing into vapor. z |
| Subject: | Not only that, but completely in the grips of acute cognitive dissonance. |
| Date: | Apr 24 19:44 |
| Author: | Cog Doctor |
| The kind of ad hoc doctrine fabrication that TBME is
engaged in is a very common symptom that manifests in TBMs who are
suffering so greatly from cognitive dissonance that they will tell
themselves anything to make the pain go away. The temple rituals are one of the primary triggers for this type of symptom (known as ad-hoc-doctrine-concoctionitis). Often the patients suffering this malady can be diagnosed at the early stages when they begin talking about depth and hidden meaning that is in the temple ritual, but which can't be discussed because it is too sacred. This means that the cognitive dissonance has made the patient(often for years at a time)feverishly construct in his/her own head meaning that is not there. Often the patient follows the too-sacred-to-discuss structure that prevents a fully conscious confrontation with the ad-hoc-doctrine-concoctionitis that is raging inside. But through discussions with exmos, particularly knowledgeable exmos (such as Deconstructor), the patient can be induced to blurt out some of the toxic cog-dis non-doctrinal doctrine that has been building up inside. It is at this point that treatment can begin with heavy doses of fact and logic. |
| Subject: | Re: TBM Eavesdropper is in the full grips of APOSTASY |
| Date: | Apr 24 20:28 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| Good diagnosis cog doc. I agree about the hidden mystery bull. Bunch of hogwash. Keeps a person coming back trying to find out the secrets. How silly. Aren't the signs and tokens so sacred that I would - suffer my life to be taken - some hogwash like that - if I revealed the secrets. No mystery - just stupidity!!!!!! |
| Subject: | Its so profound .......that it is hard to comprehend/understand! |
| Date: | Apr 25 02:51 |
| Author: | PM |
| This has always been the SECRET *Significance* of the Morg Temple ceremony. Its liking saying the sun is so bright that it is hard to spot! Its the secret that keeps Mo dupes spinning their wheels at 100 mph on the road to no where. |
| Subject: | It's really just like my exquisite new clothes. They are so fine and superlative that |
| Date: | Apr 25 03:02 |
| Author: | The Emperor of Mormonism |
| only people who are equally fine and superlative can
see them. Uncouth barbarians perceive me as being stark naked when I am
wearing my fabulous garments. (Okay, confession time. I admit that when I look in the mirror, all I see is my stark naked self even though I know that my Imperial Tailors have just placed the fabulous new garments on me. But this is just between you and me. Nobody else needs to know. And anyway, when I try really hard to see them I can almost make them out in my mind.) |
| Subject: | hah!!! Then what the heck was the point in going at all? |
| Date: | Apr 25 03:54 |
| Author: | Charles |
| You are so right to quote those inane excuses from
the Morg...because its evidence of the level of manipulation that cult
will go down to keep members in line. What is the point of claiming we will receive further light and knowledge, then have everyone "guess" the meaning of the temple? "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" is a lot more informative than the temple. Many other "secular" shows and activities are way more interesting and insightful too. Sheesh! |
| Subject: | TBM's have a term for this "deeper understanding"... |
| Date: | Apr 25 11:43 |
| Author: | anon |
| ... and it's called being "taught by the Spirit", or "Spiritual understanding". Essentially the temple ceremony is supposed to have layered meanings...like onions (and ogres!). Once you've mastered the outer layer, basically understanding the creation story and our purpose for being here on Earth, you're supposed to "meditate" on spiritual matters. In this manner one can receive "pure intelligence" or "spiritual understanding" from the Holy Ghost...the inner layers of the onion so to speak. At this point all the DEEP DEEP DEEP doctrines like God living on a planet, or how spirit babies are made, or the nature of the Universe, or if Bob finally accepted the Gospel while vacationing in Spirit Prison, or why you'd need password to get into Heaven are made known to you by the Spirit. Why does this have to happen in the temple? Because you can be possibly influenced by Satan outside those sacred walls. But, once you're inside the temple, Satan and his imps are barred from entrance, and you're free to be instructed by the Lord. So. You can know the signs and tokens...but you can't reeeeeeeeeeeally know the signs and tokens and their DEEP DEEP DEEP meanings outside of the temple. And for those who thought that they got to where TBM E thinks he's at, you didn't....I'm sure...according to TBM E. TBM's have to believe that you never reeeeeeeeeeally felt what they felt and understood what they understood. It helps them think that they got a speciall little sumthin' on the apostates...and that helps them continue to fork over 10% to their Zen corporation. It's a shame. |
| Subject: | Re: TBM's have a term for this "deeper understanding"... |
| Date: | Apr 25 12:07 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| I'd call it "making up whatever answers one needs to kill the demons of doubt and cognitive dissonance." |
| Subject: | Ifonly I could once again see the world through the arrogant eyes of a TBM...... |
| Date: | Apr 25 19:01 |
| Author: | NotNow |
| How wonderful that TBM-Eves can see the same things as others that have given the signs and tokens but, only the spiritual and benevolent can know the truth. It brings to mind the old saying---Pride goeth before the fall. It would be easy to fall when the head is buried so far up in the deep, dark caverns of the Mormon dogma pile.... |
| Subject: | The reason you don't know the deeper meaning is.... |
| Date: | Apr 25 23:17 |
| Author: | Viewer |
| because God knows all and he knew you would become an apostate, so he didn't give you that gift. |
| Subject: | So, because of future transgression, God cut me off at the pass and withheld blessings that... |
| Date: | Apr 25 23:56 |
| Author: | Anon |
| I had been worthy to receive up to that point????? Anyone ever see Minority Report? Please!!!!! How about this one? God knew people would doubt JS if the BOA was shown to be a fraud. SO....he changed the papyri and let them be found to test us all!!!!! That's it! OR..... God knew people would be disturbed if JS married and had sex with other men's wives and 14 year old girls. So... he commanded JS to do just that just to test us! OR... How about God had/has nothing to do with JS/ the church and the temple ceremony is nothing more than a reworked masonic ceremony, the BOA was JS's imaginative way of using a newly found prop, and JS was power hungry and horny. How about that? This is more than mental gymnastics...you could call yourself a mental contortionist! |
| Subject: | So, Decon.... |
| Date: | Apr 25 23:21 |
| Author: | PtLoma |
| ...following TBME's logic, you fully understood the
deeper meaning of the endowment's signs/tokens/penalties while you were
a temple-going member, until you foreited your understanding of such by
your resignation from the church? I can see how they could claim that resignation cancels any "temple blessings" you might have received, but how would one's knowledge or understanding of a profound concept suddenly regress just because you had resigned? |
| Subject: | I notice that TBME |
| Date: | Apr 25 23:43 |
| Author: | E.L. Joe |
| Mail Address: |
| hasn't bothered to reply. Not even with has normal
half-arsed apologetic gymnastics. I think TBME has finally dug himself a hole he can't get out of. |
| Subject: | Re: TBM says temple signs and tokens hidden from Ex-Mormons?! |
| Date: | Apr 27 11:53 |
| Author: | Holy Joe |
| OK, I was an authorized veil worker and was called
on a stake mission to the temple. I had to go a minimum of one Sat a
month for a year. Now, at this time I was a TBM and was into the whole
kit and kaboodle. In that time the only further light and knowledge that
I received was that the Navajo veil ceremony text was wrong. Parts had
been left out and other pieces had problems. Now, if the person going
through the veil really needed to get this stuff to be able to make it
past the Angels in heaven, they wouldn't have it right. This begs the
question, was this intentional so that Navajos would not be able to do
it right or was it a screw up and so the inspired people doing the
translation weren't so inspired? Oh, and BTW, while TBM I would stay and pray in the Celestial room and guess what? No extra hidden knowledge. And a final question, if Satan and his cronies can't go in the temple why have locks on the lockers? |
| Subject: | to clarify |
| Date: | Apr 27 12:52 |
| Author: | tbm eavesdropper |
| The point of my post was to explain that even though
the temple ceremony is available on line and in books, nothing has been
revealed. One of the reasons that so little has been taught before is
that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are
instructed not to discuss the temple ceremony outside of the temple.
This request is very understandable. However, there was a time when taking photographs of the inside of the temple was also strictly forbidden. When it was discovered that someone had taken pictures and was going to publish them, the Church leaders went ahead and published pictures of their own. It would appear that a similar situation is involved regarding the contents of the endowment. Detailed descriptions have been published for some years now. That does not mean I can go around and repeat the ceremony and not be in violation of the covenants I made. Even though repeating is not necessarily revealing, it is not something I am doing, or plan to do. Decon asked where I got this information. I did not get it from any church authority, it cane to me after pondering the meaning of the temple endowment. It dawned on me that I was incapable of revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet understand it enough to reveal. It's a life long process of learning that may not be complete until the next life. Many members will be shocked to learn that their endowment is not really secret. Yet the Church has proclaimed many times in recent years that the temple endowment is not secret, but Sacred. It is sacred because it contains some of the deepest teachings available to man. However, the truths themselves are actually VERY SECRET because they are hidden by the symbolism through which they are revealed. The secrecy of the symbols and allegorical instruction has not been successfully guarded by the Church, but God has kept the truths very effectively concealed. These deep lessons of life are hidden from those who are not ready for them and would trample them under their feet. |
| Subject: | Re: to clarify |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:14 |
| Author: | Holy Joe |
| Sorry bubba. Your sacred rites are just secret
rites. The boys club handshakes and all that the Book of Mormon, your
own scripture, condemns. If the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of
the Gospel as your prophets have stated, where is all the occult
mumbo-jumbo that you do in the temple? And everything else that Joe the
con-man added after the publication of his feeble attempt at literary
greatness? |
| Subject: | Oh yes, the esoteric -- deeper meaning for only a few worthy ones -- the typical religious hook! |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:14 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Sounds like TBM's are trying to say the temple is
coded -- you know -- some hidden meaning, in some kind of spiritual code
for only those who understand it by prayer and special witness from
heavenly father. Ya. That's it! That works! Deeper meaning only comes from using one's imagination. It is no different than reading cloud formations and seeing the hand of God pointing at you, or the face of Jesus, or Moroni in the Viking helmet, following a special prayer as some kind of answer to your pleadings or confirmation of your prior conceived ideas. The temple is like all god-myths. They are anything you want them to be and anything you claim them to be. The typical TBM can claim great deeper meaning, great insight, etc, from the temple if they want to. Does not mean it means anything else to anyone else but them. The idea that Mormonism and it's temple rituals are anything but bastardized Masonic ceremonies is wishful thinking and an imagination gone wild. |
| Subject: | That explains it, then |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:14 |
| Author: | Asimov |
| Decon asked where I got this information. I did
not get it from any church authority, it cane to me after pondering the
meaning of the temple endowment. It dawned on me that I was incapable of
revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet
understand it enough to reveal. It's a life long process of learning
that may not be complete until the next life. In other words, you don't see any "deeper meaning" either, but because you emotionally need to keep up the pretense that "The Church Is True", there must be some deeper meaning which other people see. All the other TBMs are talking about how splended the emperor's clothes are, so perhaps you should just try and become a more spiritual person until you can see the clothes too! |
| Subject: | Re: That explains it, then - Yes, exactly, like I said in my post above, it is a kind of personal |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:17 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| revelation -- too sacred to reveal -- esoteric knowledge from one's own wishful, imaginative thinking! Everyone gets their own special esoteric knowledge, and it is soooooo special and soooooooo sacred it cannot be discussed -- ever! |
| Subject: | Honest question for TBM Eavesdropper |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:21 |
| Author: | just checking |
| How then do you explain the LDS temple ritual's
basis in the occult? Or do you just rationalize it away? Is it something you've always been aware of, or just became aware of recently? |
| Subject: | Re: Honest question for TBM Eavesdropper-Raising my hand, I KNOW I KNOW!! |
| Date: | Apr 27 13:27 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| I know the question was not directed to me, but in
true TBM fashion, I am raising my hand in class to answer the question. The answer is: Joseph Smith Jr. as a true prophet, received the Keys to the Last Dispensation of Time and was given the only authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ to restore the only true ordinances for our salvation back to the original as commanded by Heavenly Father. All others in the occult, Masons, etc, were corrupted by evil men and are designed to be counterfeits by Lucifer, the father of all lies who will draw men away from the truth. Thank you Sister Smith, You are correct. |
| Subject: | Re: "Deepest Teachings Known to Man"... |
| Date: | Apr 27 18:59 |
| Author: | SD |
| is an incongruous statement. You said yourself you didn't understand them. How can they qualify as teachings when nobody understands them? I mean, isn't being able to understand them like a prerequisite? Help us out here, TBME. Your veil of bullshit is spreading a little thin. |
| Subject: | TBM-E, if JS were here (and he is supposed to be here somewhere, |
| Date: | Apr 27 19:31 |
| Author: | Frustrating Investigator |
| according to a former prophet) he would tell you that it is not God keeping the "truths very effectively concealed", but rather it is Satan's minions moving them when you go digging for them. This is the excuse JS gave for those digging for treasure and coming up empty handed after he had seen the treasure's location in his peepstone and directed them where to dig. A loving God would not keep "truths" hidden from those sincerely seeking, otherwise they would be empty "truths" (i.e. useless). |
| Subject: | I'm so glad you come around sometimes TBME because, as a nevermo, I sometimes think stories on this site... |
| Date: | Apr 27 21:24 |
| Author: | curious2no |
| are beyond belief. (It is why I am hooked on this
website.) I think that nobody could really say or believe these things.
But posts like this one you just made, are too bizarre for anyone to
make up. May I suggest a couple of aspirin to go along with the headache from all that cognitive dissonance thinking had to have given you. |
| Subject: | it's simple, TBME WANTS to believe that... |
| Date: | Apr 27 18:48 |
| Author: | nom de who? |
| the signs and tokens are hidden, he/she wants to believe so bad, that all this silly bull**it is true. I've said it before, you can talk yourself into believing anything, ghosts, witches, boogie men, profits, seers, revelators, masonic temple ordinances, Santa and the tooth fairy. |
| Subject: | TEMPLE SECRET: There are no temple secrets! |
| Date: | Apr 28 22:57 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| On the top of this thread, TBM Eavesdropper said that
"nothing has been revealed" to the world about the temple
secrets. Now TBMe has posted a response he calls a clarification: The point of my post was to explain that even though the temple ceremony is available on line and in books, nothing has been revealed. One of the reasons that so little has been taught before is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are instructed not to discuss the temple ceremony outside of the temple. So you're still saying that "nothing has been revealed" to the world about temple secrets. How can that be? ... there was a time when taking photographs of the inside of the temple was also strictly forbidden. When it was discovered that someone had taken pictures and was going to publish them, the Church leaders went ahead and published pictures of their own. It would appear that a similar situation is involved regarding the contents of the endowment. Detailed descriptions have been published for some years now. So when is the church going to officially publish the entire text of the endowment? If you're right, then they should publish the endowment text, just like they now publish pictures of inside the temple. If you're right, the church cannot "reveal" anything by publishing the full endowment text themselves. Right? Decon asked where I got this information. I did not get it from any church authority, it cane to me after pondering the meaning of the temple endowment. It dawned on me that I was incapable of revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet understand it enough to reveal. It's a life long process of learning that may not be complete until the next life. It dawned on you? Is that all you've got? Brother, you truly are on the road to apostasy! If you keep it up, other things are going to dawn on you, I promise. At least for now you recognize that your ideas are your own and not in harmony with church leaders. You are becoming less and less TBM all the time. Many members will be shocked to learn that their endowment is not really secret. They sure will! After all, they make death oaths to keep it secret and Hinckley has said as much in conference. Again, The Prophet Hinckley said: "I remind you of the absolute obligation to not discuss outside the temple that which occurs within the temple. Sacred matters deserve sacred consideration. We are under obligation, binding and serious, to not use temple language or speak of temple matters outside." -Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, “Keeping the Temple Holy,” Ensign, May 1990, page 49 Yet the Church has proclaimed many times in recent years that the temple endowment is not secret, but Sacred. In your mind, what's the difference between sacred and secret? Many things are sacred that are not kept from the world. The sacrament is sacred, but members are allowed to discuss it. The same goes for baptism. Isn't the definition of something you can't discuss a secret? If anything, the temple endowment for Mormons is sacred AND secret. But it's an outright lie to say it's not a secret when the church is clearly obligating its members to never discuss it. It is sacred because it contains some of the deepest teachings available to man. But you've already said that you do not know or understand any of the so-called concealed symbolic meanings behind the temple signs and tokens. So you as a TBM (paying 10% of your income for life and doing your best to obey everything Mormon Church leaders have told you to do) don't have any more insight into the temple ceremony than I do. Here I am, a very happy Ex-Mormon and I don't understand the "real temple truths" any less than you do. Apparently the temple's "deepest teachings available to man" are really not available to man or woman - at least not while we are alive. So what good does temple attendance do for us before we die? Besides, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the prophets who wrote the endowment in the first place, didn't seem to know anything about deeper meanings. They didn't believe in deeper symbolic truths, so why should we? However, the truths themselves are actually VERY SECRET because they are hidden by the symbolism through which they are revealed. The secrecy of the symbols and allegorical instruction has not been successfully guarded by the Church, but God has kept the truths very effectively concealed. These deep lessons of life are hidden from those who are not ready for them and would trample them under their feet. Wait a minute. You just got through arguing that the temple is NOT secret, but sacred. Now you're saying that the temple "truths" are in fact "VERY SECRET." So which is it? You keep contradicting yourself. I think you and I are coming to some important agreements regarding the temple endowment. Be both can agree that the signs and tokens are, as you said "meaningless" by themselves. It also appears that we can agree that church leaders want what goes on in the temple to be kept concealed (a.k.a. a secret) as much as possible. Is it possible that neither of us understands the deep "symbolic" nature of the temple passwords and handshakes because no such symbolic meaning actually exists? Are you at all open to that possibility, however unlikely you think it is? |
| Subject: | Just the fact that TBME |
| Date: | Apr 28 23:04 |
| Author: | E.L. Joe |
| talks about the temple ceremony here shows that he's
on his way to apostasy. Once the rituals are no longer sacred enough to
"respect", then nothing is sacred. TBME, welcome to our world. |
| Subject: | yep, just the fact that TBME is HERE at all... |
| Date: | Apr 29 01:42 |
| Author: | 3D |
| Mail Address: |
| tells you that he/she is on their way to apostacy
LOL. Welcome aboard TBME, we leading the hearts away from the "true
Church" in droves. You're next. |
| Subject: | "Open" Secrets |
| Date: | Apr 29 03:22 |
| Author: | Green Tea |
| I find the TBM's explanation not toooo far-fetched.
After all, isn't all "nature" an open secret? All discoveries
made within the past century were "there" thousands, millions
of years before but people missed the meanings because they weren't in
the right (scientific) mind frame. Perhaps an equal number of meanings
are now unavailable to us because we can no longer relate to
"ancient" magical/shamanistic mind frames. Perhaps all of
"phenomenal reality" is just a symbol for our intrapsychic
(mental) dynamics, in which case the only thing keeping it 'secret' is
our own tendency to be distracted by "things." The point is, seeing the forms of things, especially rituals, doesn't by any means bring an understanding of meaning. The best way to conceal something is often to put it right in front of people so that they think they understand it and then dismiss it as familiar, routine, no big deal. |
| Subject: | Decon, you forget. Logic doesn't matter to TBM's |
| Date: | Apr 29 17:50 |
| Author: | Puli |
| Truth is not determined by logic, experimentation,
or even by what God's mouth pieces tell us God says. The determination
is what feels good as defined by the Holy Ghost. I'm certain that TBME
is terribly relieved (and feels VERY good) that he found a way for the
sacred things of the temple to be immune from the stench of
non-believers and exmo's. Of course, what he hasn't realized is that he
has also taken them away from himself (at least in this life) by
deciding that the sacred things of the temple (the real ones) are so
secret that not even the worthy participants can understand them to
reveal them. So what then is the whole point of the temple ceremony
except obedience (like everything else in Mormonism). What does it say about an organization that insists you go to their temples for your edification but you will never really understand what it is you are supposed to learn there because it is too sacred and you might reveal it. Hell! TBME may have gotten it and not know it. Heaven forbid he mistakenly reveal it without knowing that he did and be damned to hell. What a surprise that would be. |
| Subject: | response |
| Date: | Apr 30 01:48 |
| Author: | tbm eavesdropper |
| So you're still saying that "nothing has been
revealed" to the world about temple secrets. How can that be? Just because the temple ceremony is available word for word does not mean it has been revealed. If you give me a book written in Chinese, I can see what it is, see the characters, thumb through the pages, yet i haven't a clue what it means. So when is the church going to officially publish the entire text of the endowment? If you're right, then they should publish the endowment text, just like they now publish pictures of inside the temple. I doubt if the church will ever publish the endowment. Decon asked where I got this information. I did not get it from any church authority, it came to me after pondering the meaning of the temple endowment. It dawned on me that I was incapable of revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet understand it enough to reveal. It's a life long process of learning that may not be complete until the next life. It dawned on you? Is that all you've got? Brother, you truly are on the road to apostasy! If you keep it up, other things are going to dawn on you, I promise. I guess dawned on me is not the best word to describe my experience. Maybe I should have said after much prayer and pondering, this was revealed to me. At least for now you recognize that your ideas are your own and not in harmony with church leaders. You are becoming less and less TBM all the time. Church leaders have encouraged us to live close to the spirit and learn many truths through revelation. We need not rely on the church to teach us the mysteries of God. In fact, it is obvious to me the church is focused on teaching the Gospel to the convert and not going beyond the very basics. Sort of an elementary education in spiritual matters. The church will teach you Kindergarden truths, but it is up to each of us to seek out further light and knowledge and learn the hidden mysteries of Eternity. if you wait for the church to teach you all you know, you will be stuck with a grade school education. it's up to each of us, through personal revelation to learn the more advanced high school and college teachings of eternity. Again, The Prophet Hinckley said: "I remind you of the absolute obligation to not discuss outside the temple that which occurs within the temple. Sacred matters deserve sacred consideration. We are under obligation, binding and serious, to not use temple language or speak of temple matters outside." -Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, “Keeping the Temple Holy,” Ensign, May 1990, page 49 I agree with Pres. Hinckley. I don't believe I have used much in the way of temple language, or discussed what goes on there. In your mind, what's the difference between sacred and secret? Think of the relationship between a husband and wife. It is no secret that married couples are intimate with each other. However, we don't go around explaining in detail our sex lives to friends and neighbors because it is sacred to us. But you've already said that you do not know or understand any of the so-called concealed symbolic meanings behind the temple signs and tokens. I didn't say that. I do understand some of the sacred symbolism, but much of it i do not. Apparently the temple's "deepest teachings available to man" are really not available to man or woman - at least not while we are alive. So what good does temple attendance do for us before we die? The deepest teachings are available to us right now in this life. If we put forth the effort to learn what it all means. Wait a minute. You just got through arguing that the temple is NOT secret, but sacred. Now you're saying that the temple "truths" are in fact "VERY SECRET." So which is it? You keep contradicting yourself. No contradiction. Think back to my reference to the book in Chinese. I can view it, it is right in front of me, it's no secret it exists and I can see what is written, view the characters etc. But the meaning is very secret to me. |
| Subject: | Re: response |
| Date: | Apr 30 02:12 |
| Author: | Gatpomb |
| I don't think I fully realized the mental gymnastics I myself employed to convince myself I was a member of the one and only true church, until I read TBME's rationalizations in his last few discussions on this board. |
| Subject: | I feel for you tbm eavesdropper. It's difficult to defend something you don't fully understand. |
| Date: | Apr 30 02:21 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| I'm not being cheeky. I really do not envy your
position. I believe Decon is right about the meaning of temple symbols
and ceremony. It's really not very deep. You may try to convince
yourself otherwise, but I believe this constitutes rationalization,
something at which TMB Latter-day Saints, of which I was one for fifty
years, are good. I remember when I was more active being somewhat puzzled that members such as Hugh Nibley said it took innumerable visits to fathom the deep meaning of the temple. I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. The truth, I believe, is that those who attribute such depth to the temple are hallucinating, i.e. imagining things that don't exist. If you want to see something badly enough, your mind will create it to your satisfaction. If you can be absolutely honest with yourself, I think you can cut through the hype and see it for what it is: a simplistic ceremony that is transparently, almost embarrassingly, vapid and vacuous. You, my friend, are the victim of cult thinking, just as I was. As I studied the Jehovah's Witnesses to better understand a friend who was of that faith, I came to recognize that the LDS Church shared many of the same traits. It was much easier for me to see through the tactics and errors of the Witnesses. It was evident to me, however, that the parallels between the two organizations meant that it was possible Mormonism was no truer than JW dogma. This suspicion has been confirmed by my research. You will not be able to arrive at a good understanding of the truth unless you are brutally honest. That is very hard when you have so much invested. Believe me, I know. I have a TBM convert wife, and six children who have been indoctrinated and who wonder what happened to me. It's not easy, but at least it's honest. |
| Subject: | With all due respect TBME |
| Date: | Apr 30 02:56 |
| Author: | E.L. Joe |
| reading your posts causes me almost physical pain as I try to contort my brain to your views. As Marvelous said in a previous post, you're a good example of cult thinking, and how it can turn an apparently intelligent individual into an automaton. |
| Subject: | Reading all this makes me happy....... |
| Date: | Apr 30 18:12 |
| Author: | sunny |
| That I don't have to worry about trying to convince myself of the falsities not only of the temple, but of the whole church. I am at peace that the church is false. I don't have to sort out brain twisters and pick through and rationalize all the kooky stuff they force down your throat. It is truly a relief and a burden lifted to say "I don't believe, and it's OK". |
| Subject: | I love the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes" because it teaches us |
| Date: | Apr 30 21:10 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| a very deep truth. If enough social pressure can be
applied, people will strain to see things that do not exist. The Chinese character analogy doesn't work because, if a person has access to the characters, a dictionary can be found or a translator can be consulted. The Emperor's New Clothes analogy is better. The real temple content is the naked body of the Emperor. The deeper meaning is simply what each TBM strains to imagine is there (but really isn't) because the Church and peers within the Church have convinced them that such deeper meaning can be seen by those who are "more spiritually in tune" and who are especially "worthy" or "favored by god". Everyone wants to be spiritually in tune and worthy, so they strain and strain to see the deeper meaning so that they can feel good about themselves and the "spiritual progress" they are making as temple-worthy Mormons. But the truth is that the deeper meaning that each TBM sees is a figment of that individual's imagination, cobbled together from bits and pieces of the Mormon doctrine that they are aware of--just as each person in the crowd who imagines that they are seeing the Emperor's New Clothes sees something different in their imagination from what is seen in the imaginations of others. One person with a rich imagination may see beautiful colors and decorative touches. Another person with limited imagination may see nothing at all, but still claim to see something out of fear of being branded as an "inferior" person. Also, just like most experiences in life, the temple experience can be a kind of Rorschach test. An ink blot is just an ink blot. Goofy secret handshakes, a film that tells the creation story in the manner of a bad LSD trip, weird bloody oaths, and people raising hands over their heads while chanting "Pay Lay Ale" are nothing more than that. How you respond to such things tells more about you that in it does about the things. |
| Subject: | TBM, I applaud you for being willing to expose yourself and your beliefs to other points of view |
| Date: | Apr 30 03:05 |
| Author: | exedmo |
| Here are a couple more things for you to consider. You seem to be arguing that just because we know what is said and done doesn't mean we understand the ceremony. However, have you considered that there may be another explanation? There has been an advertising campaign lately where a financial services company asks absurd questions like "What can whales teach us about investing?". Then they give a bunch of stupid answers like "Bigger isn't always better" and "Following the crowd isn't always the right thing to do" and so on. NEWS FLASH: Whales have nothing to do with investing! Maybe the temple ceremonies are just that: ceremonies. You can look for the deeper meanings in anything, and just because you come up with an answer doesn't mean there is a deeper meaning to be found. I have actually known mormons that looked so hard for meaning in everything that they had difficulty distinguishing reality from fantasy. For example, some individuals in particular spent a tremendous amount of time considering the deeper meaning of Star Wars. They would get into deep, emotional discussions about the events in the movie and how those events were affecting the big picture of the lives of the characters in the movie. They took it very seriously would actually come up with all kinds of deep, spiritual meanings and build them into their life. Sometimes for the better, but others for worse. My point is that you are assuming there is a deeper meaning, and even if no deeper meaning exists your mind will eventually create one to satisfy you. You also made mention of the "spirit". I have never had your spiritual experiences, but based on my experiences and my discussions with others, I would expect that it was very intense in a way that you were completely convinced that it was a manifestation from diety. But how can we know how trustworthy this spirit is? It is actually very easy. The same way we can determine the reliability of any of our other senses. For example, if we see something with our eyes, we can later touch it with our hands to confirm what our eyes have told us. On the other hand, consider an optical illusion. If you didn't know what an optical illusion was and were presented with an illusion, such as a 3D projection of an image into mid-air, your visual perception would be that the object was real and suspended in mid-air. But when you reach for the object with your hand, your sense of touch would fail to confirm the presence of the object and you would know that the information provided by your eyes was incorrect. Now consider the course of action taken when the First Presidency of the Church wanted to know if something of great religious importance was real or a fraud. I am talking about the Hoffman documents. Do you think they prayed about it? I do. Do you think they got a spiritual confirmation of truthfulness of Hoffman and his documents? I think they did, otherwise they would have bowed out. But even after obtaining this spiritual witness, the church still obtained scientific analysis before purchasing the documents they so badly wanted. The spirit wasn't the final word for the First Presidency, and it shouldn't be for any of us either. And these events should also clearly show us that even if the "spirit" is real, our sense of that spirit is fallible. |
| Subject: | Huh? "It dawned on me that I was incapable of revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet understand it enough to reveal"? |
| Date: | Apr 30 03:26 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| That's like saying that even though someone agrees
to drop off nuclear secrets to Russian agents at a pre-determined spot
in the woods, the dropper really didn't reveal anything to the agents
because the dropper doesn't understand how to decipher the diagrams that
he passed on to the agents. The passer of the secrets might not understand their import, but the receivers do, because, well, they can read and comprehend them. Hence, their contents have been revealed. |
| Subject: | You can also find deeper meaning in rock and roll lyrics.... |
| Date: | Apr 30 04:03 |
| Author: | Skybolt |
| Trying to find to find deeper meaning in the temple
endowment is akin to trying to find deeper meaning in rock and roll
lyrics. It may be entertaining, but ultimately it is just silliness.
Besides, significant portions of the temple endowment are just
plagerisms from Masonry so perhaps TBME should just ask them. Actually,
the Masons probably have grounds for a lawsuit on the matter so I would
encourage them to sue LDS Inc. to stop them from using what rightfully
belongs to the Masons. But the next time TBME is in the temple perhaps he should inquire at the temple presidency office for the following information: A) Full text of the post 1990 endowment. B) Full text of the pre 1990 endowment. C) A written explanation of the differences. Now that should get TBME a LOT of desired attention from the temple staff especially if he pursues the issue. No answers mind you, but probably an interrogation about why a such a good Mormon would even want to make such an inquiry. |
| Subject: | Re: TEMPLE SECRET: There are no temple secrets! |
| Date: | Apr 30 11:43 |
| Author: | Vera |
| Whenever you hear GBH or any other GA, dead or
alive, use the word 'binding', red flags ought to go up. For to bind anything is the language of the occult. |
| Subject: | TBM-E is merely Following the Prophet, Gordon B. Waffle-Weasel |
| Date: | Apr 30 16:42 |
| Author: | the Haole Ghost |
| >> It dawned on me that I was incapable of
revealing that which I have promised not to reveal because I do not yet
understand it enough to reveal. If Gordy were to read that, he'd be so proud of our little TBM-E. That's a real good one!! That's as slippery as a treasure hidden by an unworthy Lamanite!! As for the "sacred truths being hidden through symbolism"...... TBM-E would do well to read about the human tendency to ascribe 'meaning' & 'symbolism' to meaningless / random stimuli, in "Fooled By Randomness" by Taleb. Now, I'll reveal a sacred truth to you, a deep mystery that was shown to me by the Haole Ghost: The Mormon Temple Ceremony is an Exquisite Blend of Goat Piss, Bull Sh*t, and Curelom Ejaculate. But don't tell anyone else - it's too sacred. |
| Subject: | Re: TEMPLE SECRET: There are no temple secrets! |
| Date: | Apr 30 18:43 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| TBME get yourself a tape-recorder and record what
you have written in your posts - play it back to yourself. You seem like
a sincere, intelligent, and caring person. I hope you wake up and quit
wasting your time on the cult. I wish you could really hear what you are
saying. Is there any part of you - that mormonism hasn't touched?????
Can't you see the lies??? I use to be just like you - you are in so
deep. You will have to work hard to break free. Do you honestly - deep
inside - believe what they have taught you??? This board is here to help people - like you - to break free from the brainwashing. Why do you think there are more and more posters on this board. The message is getting out about the mormon cult. The church has kept people trapped because they have pretty much controlled the information that members receive. The internet has opened peoples eyes - because they are free to access all kinds of information now. The ability to communicate with others - through the internet - is allowing people to share their experiences about mormonism. We don't have to hide anymore - worried about what the church would do to us. We are free to share the truth about mormonism. The mormon church is a lie!!!!!!!!! |
| Subject: | What deeper meanings could there possibly be? |
| Date: | May 01 09:28 |
| Author: | TFR |
| What deeper meanings could there possibly be that
could justify the Mormon Church's ban on discussing them outside of the
Temple? It's ridiculous. I guarantee that no matter what TBME imagines
he has learned as deeper, sacred meanings behind the symbols, there is
nothing about them that is of a nature that they could not be freely
discussed with people in Sunday School or with sympathetic non-Mormons.
What could be sooooo sacred that it cannot be talked about freely?
Mormons can talk about the atonement. They can talk about the sacrament.
What is there in the temple that is more sacred than those things? The only reason that they don't want members to talk about the temple is because they are afraid of ridicule. They are afraid of ridicule because the temple ceremony is ridiculous. If the leaders can keep members from talking about it and comparing notes and feelings, they think that maybe they can preserve some sense of mystery and make doubters feel isolated. |
| Subject: | "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao" |
| Date: | May 01 18:59 |
| Author: | Lao Tse |
| "The name that can be named is not the eternal name." From unexpected quarters comes corroboration for TBM's ineffability. The tip of the iceberg we have within our mental and verbal grasp is not the whole of it--how could it be? This does not merely apply to this or that concocted ceremony. It's the truth about our entire existence. |
| Subject: | That's different. Those quotes refer to insights that are so profound that language fails. |
| Date: | May 02 06:24 |
| Author: | TFR |
| They are ineffable because one can only understand
some things by direct experience. The deal with the temple rituals is that Mormons are always pretending that they are learning higher truths and wisdom in the Temple that are too sacred to discuss outside of the temple. They are in fact forbidden in the ceremony itself to discuss the "signs and tokens". Prohibition on speaking about a subject is entirely different from ineffable insights--i.e., insights so profound that you cannot adequately express them, regardless of whether you are otherwise allowed to discuss them to the full extent possible. The tip of the iceberg that we have within our mental and verbal grasp may not be the whole of it, but we can talk about the tip and we can try to expand our mental grasp and verbal grasp of the rest by exercising our minds and verbal abilities. This is not what's at issue with the sacred/secret excuse used by Mormons to protect the temple rituals from unwanted scrutiny and examination. And, frankly, I can't imagine that as someone ponders the "sure sign of the nail" or the "pay lay ale" prayer, or any of the "signs and tokens" that are "never to be revealed," that they are getting ineffably profound insights. I truly doubt that whatever meaning they conjure up in their minds to attach to the "signs and tokens" cannot easily be put into words. The thing is they would rather not subject such imagined symbolic meanings to open discussion because they intuitively know that the ideas cannot really withstand scrutiny. |
| Subject: | I am being charitable here: everyone, regardless of religious tradition, has ineffable peak experiences |
| Date: | May 02 06:55 |
| Author: | Lao Tse |
| The ideal role of a religion (or better, a spiritual
tradition) is to provide a framework conducive to such peak experiences.
Some do it through meditations, chanting, physical or emotional
disciplines, psychotropic substances, sacred dramas, rituals, etc. The
temple ceremony is the chief one in Mormonism. Since M-ism is basically
an emotion-centered approach, the ceremony is not conceptually
well-prepared, but it still can "work" for those who are so
inclined (like perhaps the tbm eavesdropper). After all, if the "Tao," the miraculous essence, is beyond all formulations, then why can't people be "launched" from any formulation? Perhaps it has nothing to do with understanding the "meaning" of the temple forms... Maybe they can function as mind-stopping koans. Again, this is a highly transpersonal move that, paradoxically, each "person" must make for him- or herself. |
| Subject: | I don't deny that TBME could receive ineffable insights in the temple, |
| Date: | May 02 07:37 |
| Author: | TFR |
| just as I wouldn't deny that a person could have
such insights on a mountain top, or in a Buddhist temple, or in a
shelter for the homeless, or while scrubbing toilets. I'm not trying to say that TBME could not receive sublime, ineffable insights in the temple. However, the context of this thread is derived from the observation that it is pointless for the temple ceremony to forbid the revealing of the "signs and tokens" because they have already been revealed (via the Internet, books, word of mouth, etc.). TBME is trying to justify the relevance of the continuing prohibition against revealing the signs and tokens (and the continuing practice of having all temple-goers swear oaths not to reveal the signs and tokens) by arguing that the signs and tokens have not been revealed because their essence is a deeper meaning that underlies the forms that have been revealed and: (1) the temple goer does not understand the deeper meaning, or (2) the temple goer understands the deeper meaning, but chooses not to reveal that deeper meaning. He also make the argument that exmos and non-Mormons are incapable of understanding the deeper meaning and therefore have not revealed the true "signs and tokens." In any case, according to the arguments advanced by TBME, ineffability has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if someone were to claim that the deeper meanings have not been revealed because they are ineffable, the original point about the irrelevance of the prohibition against revealing the signs and tokens is validated: the prohibition against revealing the signs and tokens would be moot. Why would a person be required to swear an oath not to reveal something that is by its nature ineffable? |
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |