| Subject: | Mormon Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 20 16:19 2004 |
| Author: | ybaker |
| Our oldest son just announced to us this week that
he is engaged to be married. He is crazy about this girl and we really
like her also. He hesitantly told us they would get married in the
temple because it was important to her. He has gone to church
occasionally over the years and could really go either way. We were very
hurt by this because we are no longer believers and refuse to lie to
attend a wedding. I know he is torn between his love for us and doing
what would make his future wife happy. We have told him over the years
that the church excluding family members from a wedding is a slap in the
face to families and loved ones. Her parents were married in the temple
but her father's family was unable to attend. He has told my son he felt
bad about it but it was worth it. My question for those who respond is
it worth battling over? I have expressed how bad I feel about being left
out but I will love my son no matter what he does with his life. I will
never forgive the church for it though! They have brainwashed their
members into believing there is something valiant about making that kind
of sacrifice. Until the church members start standing up to the church
regarding this ass-nine practice it will continue. I am debating writing
an article to the paper regarding this but don't want to cause anymore
pain or embarassment for him. My son has said that it isn't definite but
he just wants her happy. She lives in a small town and if she doesn't
get married in the temple people will wonder why. The image thing in the
church in a small town is big. I am so torn! |
| Subject: | As a mother, I feel your pain. |
| Date: | Mar 20 16:32 |
| Author: | Lara C |
| The fact that people accept this practice as normal
shows how well they have been brainwashed by the cult. It's ridiculous
and _not_ normal. That said, my oldest was married in the temple, and I
had a recommend at the time. My youngest was not married in the temple,
and I didn't have to worry about it. For myself, I would probably do
what I had to do to get a recommend if I had to (i.e., lie and pay), but
I admire those not willing to do so. For what it's worth, my son married a convert, and her parents, not even members, had to wait outside while their daughter was married. I felt so bad but unable to change what was happening. I credit them enormously for their manners and grace that day. We did have a ring ceremony before the reception that made up for it somewhat, I suppose. However, I felt like pulling them aside and apologizing profusely for the One True Church. What a joke. |
| Subject: | This is one of the things that burns me ...... |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:02 |
| Author: | windsong |
I've been excluded from the weddings of friends, and that's one thing. I've been sad, and so have they. But to be excluded from the wedding of your own children would be in a whole other category of pain and near-rage for me! You said: She lives in a small town and if she doesn't get married in the temple people will wonder why. The image thing in the church in a small town is big. There's probably a lot more to it than image, but when I read this, I thought: "How can you compare image to the tremendously important presence of parents at a wedding!" I must admit that I don't fully understand the pressure and the thinking here, since I've never been Mormon. But I do understand in part because I've lived and breathed the Mormon ethos with my friends. Two of my children have been married recently, and it's unthinkable to me that I wouldn't or couldn't have been there! It seems to me that it would be only right if your son's fiancée were as eager to please him as he is to please her! I really hope that a compromise will be found that will honour and please both sides of the family. And if it came down to your having to wait outside the temple, you will probably do that with much more grace and understanding than I can imagine right now! But I do know it's amazing what we can do when we have compassion on people who are blind to understanding the implications of their choices. I do really hope this turns out well for you! |
| Subject: | Re: This is one of the things that burns me ...... |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:35 |
| Author: | yb |
| My son told me that she had told him that she loved
him enough to marry him anywhere but that she would be settling with
less than her goal if she did anything but the temple wedding. She
really is a great girl who has been raised in that mind set of never
settling for anything but a temple marriage. She has great fun loving
parents and I don't know if they realize how hurt we will be if this
wedding takes place in the temple. I don't know whether to put my
feelings out on the line and tell them or hope they sense the wrong in
this. When I was her age I would probably have made a similar choice. I
married my first husband in the temple when I was 20 years old. He died
almost 3 years later, leaving me with 2 children. Imagine the surprise
you get when you find out that a man who is left a widow can marry again
in the temple and I could not. My wonderful husband married me and took
on those two children as if they were his own. When he married me he was
told he would never be able to be sealed to me and any children we would
have together would belong to me and my first husband. Hey what a great
after life package the church had to offer us! |
| Subject: | Re: This is one of the things that burns me ...... |
| Date: | Mar 20 21:16 |
| Author: | Doxigrafix |
| Well, my parents were quite forcibly excluded from
my wedding as well... They were dead. I would have given ANYTHING to
have them there. I guess I don't understand how someone could willingly
exclude their parents... but that's just me. |
| Subject: | Response to Lara |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:10 |
| Author: | yb |
| Thanks for your response Lara. There was a time when
I was a temple going gal. Although the last time I went was when my
brother married over ten years ago. I basically lied at that time. I
really didn't have any bad habits I just didn't believe. I would have to
say my biggest sin now is that of a non-believer. I have talked to many
people who have lied to attend the temple. While I don't blame them I
just can't do that anymore. I suppose I feel that same sense of coming
out that other people feel when they express who they really are. Both
my husband and I have more family members that would be pleased to see
our son marry in the temple than not even if it means our exclusion. In
fact they would be his biggest supporters. If he called and asked them
what he should do they would all tell him it is the only right way to
marry. I don't think we have a whole lot of support on our side. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:24 |
| Author: | JustCallMeJen |
| could your son and soon to be daughter in law do a
civil ceremony first so EVERYONE could attend? then do the temple thing? when my husband and i announced we were getting married, his parents took out a small loan so they could come. my parents however couldn't give a crap less and didn't even try to come, i would have LOVED them to be there though *sigh* it didnt have anything to do with mormonism or the temple i am an exmo and he is a nevermo. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:37 |
| Author: | Miss D. Meaner |
| In Mormonland, if you get married
"civilly" first (if you live in the U.S.) you have to wait a
year to be sealed in the temple, even if you're "worthy." Seems to me the Mormons want the couple to feel peer pressure to marry in the temple at all costs, even at the cost of estranging families. If the couple opts to wait a year, tongues will wag and gossip will fly that they "weren't worthy" to marry in the temple, and that's why they got married outside first. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:38 |
| Author: | JustCallMeJen |
| so THATS why my aunt and uncles sealing date was a year off from their wedding date! ok. gotchya |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 20 17:40 |
| Author: | ybaker |
| Sure they can marry traditionally and then marry in the temple a year later. I suppose they make them waite a year to punish them for this misdeed. The church really discourages this. They will generally pressure the couple to do it right the first time. They will make them feel really guilty if they don't. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 21 01:50 |
| Author: | Fedelm |
| That's what I did, especially since I was a convert of less than a year when we got married, and his mom wasn't able to attend the temple anyway. The original plan was that after a year, we were going to the temple, but the marriage didn't last that long. We did the ceremony at the Ren Faire, which was a LOT of fun, but because his bishop wasn't allowed to do the ceremony, nobody he invited from his ward bothered to show up. Another reason they stayed away was because we all dressed in Renaissance garb, and not the temple stuff. I filed for divorce over 9 months later, so I escaped the whole temple thing. |
| Subject: | This is proof that the church requires shunning. |
| Date: | Mar 20 19:20 |
| Author: | Cheryl |
| I'm sorry for your pain. I'm sure other cults which force members to shun loved ones this way, also program them to feel the sacrifice is worth the hurt. |
| Subject: | One thing I need help with here...... |
| Date: | Mar 20 19:56 |
| Author: | Nora_AZ |
| Why is it not possible to have marriage in a nice garden or the convert's former church or whatever....THEN that day, later or, or perhaps the next day quietly get married in the Temple? It seems it would save a lot of heartache between the families. |
| Subject: | Re: One thing I need help with here...... |
| Date: | Mar 20 19:59 |
| Author: | The Church |
| Because the Lard says so. This is the Lard's church and the Lard's policy says that it must be. So thus it is. Amen. Anyone who argues with this policy will be henceforth disciplined for speaking out against the church. Thus it is. Amen. |
| Subject: | But seriously... |
| Date: | Mar 21 03:21 |
| Author: | mofembot |
| Yeah, but it's only the Lard's policy in those
countries that recognize religious weddings as legally binding. Here in
Europe, LDS people marry civilly first, then typically
"honeymoon" to the closest temple. So their
"unworthy" (piffle!) relatives get to see the civil marriage
and the LDS authorities have no frickin' grounds to impose the guilt. A large part of the problem is that the leadership almost 100% American, and of course they're all "worthy" to go to the temple. It would never cross their minds that they're causing pain because they've never experienced it themselves. (And as we all know, pain is a good thing--when it happens to someone else, especially if they're "unworthy.") |
| Subject: | Sorry, I saw the answer after I posted this...BUT |
| Date: | Mar 20 20:00 |
| Author: | Nora_AZ |
| it seems ridiculous to make a couple wait for a year if they get married anywhere else first. What if the marriage isn't yet consummated? They really havent broken any "rules" that way have they?? |
| Subject: | Re: Sorry, I saw the answer after I posted this...BUT |
| Date: | Mar 20 20:06 |
| Author: | The Church |
| Yup, it's ridiculous. That's why it's this church is the biggest scam going. All devout Morons accept it and keep paying their ten percent to go to the temple. Parents who can't go silently suffer and don't complain to the press or anyone else who will matter. Young couples ignore the feelings of their parents or other family members. No one complains long enough or loud enough. The sheeple just bow their heads and say "baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa." |
| Subject: | That's How i got in this mess to begin with... |
| Date: | Mar 20 20:15 |
| Author: | denise |
| I was questioning the church as a life long member at the time that my boyfriend who I was crazy about finally proposed. I knew that If after 4 years of dating I wanted the marriage I would have to suck it up and go to the temple. I put all my papers and doubts into an envelope and shoved all my concerns deep inside. Pan ahead 7 years. Now I have 2 more children and it's not JUST about US. Talk to your son honestly about his DOUBTS. Have him really examine his CONVICTIONS. It's a lot easier to make a decision when there aren't children involved. My parents never counseled me to be true to myself. Only to what I was taught. Hopefully you can reach out to him in a way that causes him to be proactive. Maybe he could be a catalyst in her life to help her OUT of MOLIFE AND WORSHIP PRISON. |
| Subject: | I wish I could tell her that I regret my temple wedding. |
| Date: | Mar 20 22:34 |
| Author: | Micro |
| I went through the whole ordeal of getting married
in the temple. And it was exactly that -- an ordeal. It was not a
special day for me. I had to share it with about 23 other brides. And
that was supposedly a slow day at the Salt Lake Temple. At least once a month I ask my husband when we are going to make it legal. I was forced to sign all the legal documents before I had even set foot in a sealing room. Technically, I guess we were legally married in a small room with some bitch telling us where to put our signatures. So, I guess my whole family and guests missed it. After having the documents signed, going through the actual ceremony was kind of a waste. Oh how I would love to do it again the right way. In a non-LDS church or my backyard or something like that. |
| Subject: | Something that *might* make you feel better. |
| Date: | Mar 20 22:36 |
| Author: | MySongAngel |
| The temple ceremonies are nothing special, anyway.
There's no music. No walk down the aisle. No exchanging of rings. No
"I do's". The bride doesn't even get to wear her wedding
dress, or she at least has to have a crap-load of junk piled over it.
And last, but not least, only certain people can be there. The groom's
parents won't even be there! And even in picture-perfect TBM families,
the younger siblings can't go. What other religion excludes siblings as
old as 18? It is highly possible for a temple-worthy girl in her early
twenties to be unable to attend her own sister's wedding! I don't know
if it makes you feel any better, but the reception and the celebration
afterwards is far more special than the cattle call in the temple. In my
opinion, you're not missing much. I AM sorry, though. I hope you can
focus on the rest of the day without dwelling on the ceremony that you
missed. I feel sorry for the bride. She feels obligated to sell out the
most special day of her life. She won't get the beautiful ceremony that
every bride is entitles to. In Mormonism, everyone gets robbed. P.S. Maybe they can have a ring ceremony. It would be a lot more special than the stupid 'take a number' garbage they'll get in the temple. |
| Subject: | My family's experience with temple weddings. |
| Date: | Mar 20 22:48 |
| Author: | Micro |
| My grandmother was told that she could attend her my
aunt's wedding. She came to Salt Lake City where she learned otherwise.
My grandmother became so bitter, she left the church. Why couldn't she
attend her daughter's wedding? She was married to a non-member. My
grandfather never joined the church even though his wife, after getting
married and having four children, did. So, she could not attend her
daughter's wedding because while still a non-Mormon she married a
non-Mormon. This was before they allowed women to go through the temple
when they were married to non-priesthood holders. When my mom married, after her sister, she offered to have the wedding in my mom's hometown of Montreal. My grandmother was so bitter she told my mom that she did not care what my mom did. The church destroyed the relationship between my mom and her mom. My mom got married in the Los Angeles Temple without her parents present. My uncle was scheduled to marry in the Alberta temple. However, they lived in Montreal and it was unheard of for an unmarried couple to travel alone together. Therefore, they planned to get married in Montreal and travel to Alberta for their honeymoon where they would be sealed. The church said no, they were to travel to Alberta unmarried and get sealed in the temple. Well, my uncle and soon-to-be aunt found that type of situation unacceptable. They got married in Montreal and honeymooned in New York City. |
| Subject: | Very interesting.... |
| Date: | Mar 21 02:34 |
| Author: | PtLoma |
> My uncle was scheduled to marry in the Alberta temple. However, they lived in Montreal and it was unheard of for an unmarried couple to travel alone together. Therefore, they planned to get married in Montreal and travel to Alberta for their honeymoon where they would be sealed. The church said no, they were to travel to Alberta unmarried and get sealed in the temple. Well, my uncle and soon-to-be aunt found that type of situation unacceptable. They got married in Montreal and honeymooned in New York City. It looks as though at least one temple marriage policy has changed since your uncle's time. Current regulations allow civil marriage immediately before a temple marriage, when a couple would be forced to travel together on an overnight journey to the nearest temple. With the construction of so many temples lately, this loophole is likely used only infrequently, but certainly in remote areas of Canada, a couple's journey to the nearest temple, if undertaken by car, would incur at least one overnight stop. This loophole allows a couple en route to the temple to travel together and stay overnight as legal husband and wife. I've read a few TBM bulletin boards where this loophole was discussed. Now and then a TBM gal would post that she would use the loophole to have a civil marriage that both sets of parents could attend. The example I remember was a woman from Utah who arranged to marry in the San Diego Temple, because her husband had family there. Although there were a dozen or so closer temples in Utah, the trip from Utah involved an overnight stay, and she was allowed to marry civilly (in her parents' back yard with a bishop presiding) a day or two before her temple marriage in San Diego. If both families had been from Utah, however, it would have been harder to exercise this loophole. A similar arrangement exists in European countries where religious marriages are not legally valid. In this case, the couple must (by law) marry civilly, and then they can have a religious ceremony, if desired, for their own religious edification. The civil ceremony is usually held on a weekday preceding the Friday or Saturday temple ceremony. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 21 03:02 |
| Author: | smilingnow |
| There was not a single member of my family present
at my wedding. My family waited outside on the temple grounds for me.
Though it is one of the biggest regrets of my life now, NOTHING they
could have said at the time would have dissuaded me. That may be true
for your son & soon to be daughter-in-law as well. If they don't marry in the temple, people in the church will think they had pre-marital sex. Period. That is what she is trying to avoid. And in a small town full of Morgbots I really don't blame her. Tell your son your feelings (gently) so at least they are on the record. Then wholeheartedly support their decision. They are going to make ALOT of decisions that you may not agree with in the course of their married life. Take this all as an accelerated course of "letting go". You do NOT want to start out with bitter feelings, especially if you hope to be an influence in their lives later on. I agree with MySongAngel who said that the temple ceremony is not that great. It seriously takes like five minutes max. The counsel that the sealer gives them for their marriage life IS discussable outside the temple (just not the words to the sealing ordinance itself - although you can find those online) so your son could fill you in on some of it. I would focus on making the reception SPECTACULAR - ditch the stupid boring greeting line and have some great food, dancing, etc. You can suggest a ring ceremony, but me and my husband refused, thinking it would be ant-climatic. Gag. We were so full of ourselves. I think I will write my family a formal letter of apology. Hang in there. |
| Subject: | Re: Temple marriage vs Traditional marriage |
| Date: | Mar 21 07:10 |
| Author: | Claire |
| As a mother of three married children I understand
your feelings. But this is a battle you can't win, so it's best to let it go and go along with the bride's wishes. In a contest between parents and a fiance, the parents are sure to lose, and the fallout from this may last a lifetime. Be gracious and stay friends with the couple, only giving advise when asked. They may get tired of the Mormon treadmill soon enough but it's their choice as adults and they'll be easier to get along with if they feel their choices, right or wrong, are respected. I know this is difficult for you but as some other posters have mentioned, the actual marriage ceremony in the temple is no big deal. The couple is shortchanging themselves but it's their decision. |
| Subject: | A nevermo's encounter with her sister's wedding reception... (cursing) |
| Date: | Mar 22 16:19 |
| Author: | Erin |
| So we made it!! One of the most difficult things our
family has gone through, but this morning my mom looked at my brother
and me and just said, "We got through it." I left early Saturday morning for a Biology exam, and my sister was dressed in regular clothes saying that Jessica would pick her up in a few minutes. No time for the mother-daughter bonding moments my mom was searching for, and it killed me that I had to leave at that very moment, and was not able to hold my mom up for the next hour or so. When I got home, my mom was re-vacuuming the house. She was having trouble sitting still, and I am sure she didn't want to turn on the waterfall too early. We made the deli trays and laughed about my dog's new haircut, he is so skinny looking now. A few tears fell every few minutes, but nothing too serious. We all took our turn in the shower, and began to put on our fancy outfits. My boyfriend, Kevin, arrived seconds before my grandma and her boyfriend, Pete. I walked down the driveway barefoot, and hugged everyone, trying to keep it together. The three of us gathered inside, and my mom fell apart. She was crying so hard on her mother's shoulder that she let out some small screams and loud sobs. I couldn't stay, and bolted for the basement door. Kevin was waiting at the bottom of the stairs for me. I let out a few tears, and continued to get myself and Kevin ready. Turned out I needed a slip and Kevin needed a belt, so we set out for Wal-Mart before anyone else arrived. When we got back, the front room was being used for pictures. we hurried past and retrieted to the basement to finish getting ready. I grabbed a bottle of wine on the way up to start the pre-celebration celebration. Good thing too, because I was called to the front room for pictures shortly thereafter. I was shaking so hard, trying desperately not to cry. I don't think my smile was too great, but it will have to do. I didn't want to be there, pretending it was all right and good with me that this was all going on. I finished that and then my glass of wine. Our cousin, Jessica, was in from Minnesota, taking my place as Maid of Honor, and she had spent the past night and day with Shannon. We said later that she was sent to us from God, because without her there we would have had to talk to the in-laws a lot more than we did. We left out for the reception hall for more pictures, luckily I was not a part of those. Jessica shed a good light on our family by talking to Matt's family whom she had met Friday night and spent the day with at the temple. She seemed to know the unworthy ones better, probably from the hours in the waiting room. I was relieved to find that the receiving line didn't start at the doorway, so I was able to skip talking to my sister and meeting her in-laws. I stopped at my table, then went straight down to the bar. My parents set up a tab with the main bar downstairs which served our family and friends, and about half of Matt's. We were so happy to see Matt's uncle walk into the room with four beers in his hand, and he was happy that we gave him tickets to put them on our tab. I sipped my rum and coke, and said hello to my family as they arrived. I really didn't lose it until the three girls my sister and I babysat since birth walked into the room. I hadn't seen them in about a year or so, and I just couldn't help myself and sobbed on their shoulder's, then their fathers. I met up with him down at the bar later and he said that the girls had been full of questions. I told him they could call me anytime, but he said he had told them that it was Shannon's decision to do what she is doing and that they need to understand that. Others took a different approach and told their kids they would kill them if they ever did anything like this to their family. Anyways, we were instructed to sit for dinner, so I found my chair at table number three. The DJ announced the bridesmaids and groomsmen, my grandma and Pete, the in-laws, my parents, and then the wedding march began and Shannon and Matt came strolling in. My body was already trembling, and I knew that the tears wouldn't stay in much longer. The bishop was announced next and he took the microphone to commence the ring ceremony. My brother turned his head away and gave a blank stair at the table setting. The bishop decided he would tell those who didn't know what happened that morning. He said that they believe you should be married in the temple, and that that is where Shannon and Matt were married in the presence of their friends and Matt's family. With those words I lost it and so did my mother. I tried to find a napkin to hide my face, and the rum and coke soaked one had to suffice. I looked around and saw my uncle Jim dabbing his face and trying to smile at me. I saw the three girls I used to baby sit staring at me, they looked so confused and sad for us. All of my little cousins just stared at our table, looking back and forth knowing that we weren't crying because we were happy, and they just didn't know why. Every other wedding they have ever been to always had happy tears. I felt so bad for them, and yet I know it is good that they saw that, that they know that this is not the way to do things, family shouldn't be hurt this way. The bishop finally stopped and so did we. The rings were exchanged with no words, except the camera man instructing them when to stop and smile. Then they cut the cake, and my brother leaned over to me and said, "They really have this half-assed backwards. Don't they know cake comes after dinner?!?" Got me to chuckle and dried my teary eyes. Dinner came and we started to loosen up a little and laugh a lot. Then some man came to my dad and asked if he would say something after dinner. I was interested to know what he would say, but I missed everything when I went to the bathroom and the bar. I am glad I missed it though because there was a blessing said either before or after my dad spoke. Kevin said one half of the room bowed their heads as the bishop said whatever he said, which Kevin said was really confusing and strange, and he isn't even remotely religious. The funny thing was, though, that during the blessing my little two-year-old cousin Michael toddled his little Irish self over to the bishop and stood right in front of him and starting coughing profusely! He just wailed away through most of the blessing and left our tables doubled over with laughter. The music started and my Irish genes got me dancing. I was in a daze of a little bit of rum and a little bit of high anxiety, which kept me going with a half smile all night. One of my cousins, I can't remember which one, came to me and asked if I was able to go to the wedding with Shannon and see the ceremony. I told her I wasn't allowed, but I showed her my sister flower boutineir and said that Shannon thought this would make me happy instead. She gave me a hug and walked back to her parents and hugged them too. We tried to have a ball the rest of the night, and finally were able to go home for the post celebration celebration, which had changed names to the post game party. I finished my bottle of wine and got nice and drunk for a while. I walked people politely away from my mother when they tried to say things like, "I wanted to tell you how sorry I am.." I tried as hard as I could to be hall monitor and keep her from crying. I wanted her to have a little fun if she could. Most people left by 1:00a.m. but the Irish musicians and drunkards formed a jam circle in the basement and we stayed up until 5:00a.m. singing. The whole night I think I said five words to my sister, zero to Matt who kept glaring at me because I am the sister-in-law from hell. At least now he can hate me because I am not the typical Mormon woman he wants me to be, and not because I run around with my 34D's hanging slightly out while he was a virgin and not able to have that!! Maybe he just hates me because I talk back to him and he was taught that women are not supposed to do that to him. I guess now that my sister has shown him what he has been missing he can finally have a deep voice and stop being angry with every strong, independant, lovely woman walking by. And so it is over, and we can all recover slowly at home with my sister far away in her own apartment. No more veils or garter belts lying around to torture us. No more plans to rip my moms heart out, at least until she gets pregnant as good Mormon women do. And so I leave you with this... Go to your families and thank them for going through this torture for you. Go to them and apologize again and again and again because the pain will never go away. The nevermo mother and father of the bride or groom will always feel that pain somewhere deep in their hearts no matter how far away from the church you fall. Go to them, and never let them go because they never let you go. |
Related topic: 165 Not allowed to the Temple Wedding
Related topic: 127 Temple Marriage CeremonyRecovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |