| Subject: | A stunning lunch with an Stake President: "Breaking the will" of members! |
| Date: | Jan 31 11:04 2004 |
| Author: | Gag Again |
| Years ago we were managers in the same company and I
was visiting his Central Utah Area. We were having a nice lunch when his
cell phone rang. He spent the next ten minutes reaming out a ward leader
in his stake. When he finally hung up he looked at me and (presuming
that I was a fellow TBM) said: "This guy's not church broken yet" (nodding to his phone) "Church broken?" I asked. He then asked if knew much about horses, which I didn't. He explained how a mustang in the wild has a mind of its own and lives by its in-born instincts and will. He explained how you can break the horse's will and teach it who is in charge. Repetition, giving and withholding affection, punishment, restraint, and isolation from other untamed horses - all were necessary. You can teach a horse to do unnatural things like putting up with the sound of a gun, or going near a fire, he said. It's just a matter of breaking their will and teaching them that they don't have a right to their own feelings and natural instincts. "It's a matter of showing the horse who will ALWAYS be in charge." He finally said. And he stressed ALWAYS. Church members were no different than horses to this man. Then I realized that he was no different that most other ranking leaders in the church, the others just don't put things so bluntly. -- Or so accurately. The great issue is who finally takes charge of the member's will - and keeps if forever. Do you obey them? Or do you obey yourself? Ultimately there can only be ONE master of your will. So, do you break or not? I managed not to go to church the next Sunday. And I haven't gone back since. Is there anyone here who has studied the human will and knows how it gets taken? It's a frightening subject. How many different tactics does the church use? How can you get your will back? This SP acted like you lose it forever! God help us. |
| Subject: | You just made me say, "Wow!" (or maybe "Whoa!" would be better.) Amazing. |
| Subject: | Read "The Double Bind" |
| Date: | Jan 31 11:10 |
| Author: | Hoosiergirl |
| There's a link to this lengthy but excellent
analysis about the Mormon breaking of human will on the main page of
this site. I can't decide if I am surprised about what you wrote or not. I guess it's not that I'm surprised about the content but that he was so frank about it -- telling it so explicitly. This stuff is unreal -- yet sooo real --HG |
| Subject: | In Korea, POWs were taught to give in to "little things" first... |
| Date: | Jan 31 11:25 |
| Author: | Sig |
| ...all those little steps add up to a long journey over time. But they aren't that noticeable and don't seem too important at the time. |
| Subject: | Little things to little children. Start in primary. They won't know anything else. |
| Subject: | Isn't it marvelous, Isn't it wonderful? |
| Date: | Jan 31 11:43 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac (Like unto Theo, always swearing) |
| To quote Rage Against The Machine, "F**K YOU, I
WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!!!!" A kinder, more gentle, a bit more socially acceptable (but not in Utah) way to say the same thing is the following word: NO. Anyone who didn't feel spiritually raped as they did their pre-1990 temple endowments was truly brain-washed. I promise to give EVERYTHING to the church, my time, talents, money even my life if needs be....... Or else I promise to allow my life be taken, and let me show you the ways I will allow my self to be brutally killed............... Brainwash kiddies to accept that this temple ceremony is the pinnical of spiritual experiences, throat slashings and all, and it's easy to break human will. And the whole getting naked and touching deal. Why do you think doctors tell you to take your pants off? Who is the one with authority in the room? The guy with the pants on, of course. And the constant theme of, "you're not good enough, you're not worthy......" "but I give everything" "you need to give more!" And turning what is natural and making it a sin! Masturbation Physical intimacy with the one you love Beer Loud laughter Light mindedness Free time Your own thoughts Your choice of under-roos It is an almost perfect control system. Almost. Every so often a double recessive gene of self determination, logical thinking and rational thought meets up in the production line of generational following baby makers. It has got to be genetics. Of us six siblings, there is me who obviously sees things differently. There is one other who I wonder about, but he/she is holding tight for now. Actually, I think that logic gene combo can be turned on with blatant breaking of the lightmindedness/loud laugher clause in The Kolob Contract. Central in the breaking process is the requirement of starting young. Instead of 'twinkle, twinkle little star' the first songs must be 'child of god' and 'I hope they call me on a mission' and 'follow the prophet' and 'I love to see the temple' and 'book of mormon stories' and 'families can be together forever' and 'I belong to the church of jesus christ' and on and on and on...... the parental units did a goddamn good job in the raising up of righteous seed to the lard. There were no worries about preparing the children for adulthood. Only training of how to better serve the church with the motiff of families are forever and this life is but a second in the eternal scheme of things. So back to breaking the human spirit. The breaking begins at church, but is has to be re-enforces at home. Thanks for following along with this mindless dribble. Just random thought of how I believe an evil corporation mind fucks and uses people and families for it own purposes. If I ever have the opportunity to meet up with Brother Joseph................. |
| Subject: | And then there's the "horse whispering" concept. |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:01 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| Rather than break the horse's will, the trainer
gains trust and cooperation by approaching the horse within its frame of
reality, by thinking like a horse, by demonstrating there is nothing to
fear and no harm. True, the end result is the same -- the horse does
whatever you want -- but you have a "happy" horse instead of a
broken one. |
| Subject: | Momma always said ... |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:23 |
| Author: | justmythoughts |
| quote:
Church members were no different than horses to this man. Then I realized that he was no different that most other ranking leaders in the church, the others just don't put things so bluntly. -- Or so accurately. Momma always said ... Chit floats to the top! :-) |
| Subject: | Breaking the will is how children were raised. It was considered the best way, years ago. |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:30 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Along with: "Spare the rod, spoil the
child." The Mormon Church treats people like they are small children whose will has to be broken! They are about 100 years behind the times. That was an excellent analogy by that SP to show just how devious, misguided and down right inhumane the Mormon leaders can be! |
| Subject: | True, children were naturally born wrong, but brought up right. |
| Subject: | "If you're going to be a member of this family... |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:29 |
| Author: | Suck Up |
| ...you're going to pray with us!" That's what my father said to me when I was little kid and didn't want to say the family prayer, mostly because I was mad at my brother. Dad was true to his word. I ate in the other room for a few days. Couldn't go in the car with my brothers. Stupid stuff, but it worked -- Until I was 24. That's when I decided my family, actually my father, wasn't worth it. He never understood that his manipulations back-fired. You CAN get your "will" back, but it's painful when others are stll trying to break it! The Morg makes it a "you or me" thing. |
| Subject: | This is an excellent post . |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:39 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| He acts like he was the master - I wonder what table scraps the authorities were feeding him. He is just lucky they let him off of his leash to bark. |
| Subject: | This sounds like the world view of Brigham Young to me, |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:43 |
| Author: | melissa |
| and a beautiful, concise description of it. |
| Subject: | Re: This sounds like the world view of Brigham Young to me, |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:46 |
| Author: | melissa |
| I was looking through a link posted by NEPA on the
initial missionary meeting and its content. Very early people are asked
to affirm that Christ is their savior and a pulse or two after that,
they are "Invited to obey." Obedience is introduced almost at the outset. "Invited to obey." I don't think I believe Jesus really lived, but I'm sure the characterization of him in the Bible doesn't suggest his goal in life was compelling obedience. I'll say that for Christianity; Jesus seemed interested in better things than obedience. |
| Subject: | It's a matter of learning to be your genuine self... |
| Date: | Jan 31 12:47 |
| Author: | Agree |
| ...This site has been quoted before, but if you
missed it: http://www.aphilosophyoflife.com It deals with religious disappointment and finding your true self again |
| Subject: | ADMIN - can you archive this post? It seems so.... |
| Date: | Jan 31 13:07 |
| Author: | Longtimer |
| typical of the problem we are all having. It's a struggle for the will of human beings. |
| Subject: | Re: ADMIN - can you archive this post? It seems so.... |
| Date: | Jan 31 13:11 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| I agree this should be archived. Better yet - given to investigators - contemplating joining the cult. Also, it might make a good article for the Ensign. |
| Subject: | "You can teach a horse to do unnatural things..." |
| Date: | Jan 31 13:20 |
| Author: | "Mary" at the vail |
| The minute I read that I thought of the first time I
went through the S.L. Temple. Talk about unnatural things! But as the
years went on, I got use to it. No longer. It was stupid all along; I just gave in to it for years. the good news is that YOU CAN GET YOUR WILL BACK!!!!! |
| Subject: | Excellent post! |
| Date: | Jan 31 15:01 |
| Author: | free |
| This is exactly what my counselor kept trying to
preach to me -- that it is about control and that they use tactics to
keep you controlled and all for basically selfish reasons. BTW, my counselor was a trained hypnotherapist and he told me a lot of the stuff that is used to manipulate you is knowledge in hypnotherapy. |
| Subject: | You're Right, I Can Tell This Post Is Awesome . . . |
| Date: | Jan 31 15:32 |
| Author: | Boardwalker |
| I read it four hours ago and I'm still mumbling to myself about the two TBM's I work for. |
| Subject: | Anyone else ever hear the anecdote about the cows and the onions? |
| Date: | Jan 31 18:43 |
| Author: | the dreaded single adult |
| A story they used to tell in sac. meeting: A man had a herd of cows. His cows liked to eat apples, but one year, his apple crop failed, and all he had to feed the cows for the winter was going to be onions. The cows didn't like onions. What to do? The man thought a bit, and then added an onion or two to the bin of apples for the cows feed. They ate them with the apples, and never noticed. The next day, he added more onions, and the cows ate, never noticing. Over time, the man added more and more onions, until, after a while, the cows were eating *all* onions, and no apples at all--without noticing!! Of course, this story, in sac. meeting, was used to show how SATAN convinces you to do thing you wouldn't ordinarily do, but I think it applies in other ways--don't you? ;^) |
| Subject: | You know that feeling you get when... |
| Date: | Jan 31 18:48 |
| Author: | Finally Out |
| ...a clerk calls and says the Bishop or SP wants to
meet with you Thursday night at 8:00? Two things hit your mind: "What are they going to do to me now!" -and- "How can I ever get out of it?" The clerk won't tell you anything and you're thinking "Oh God, why won't they leave me alone! I hate this. I'm going to say 'yes' again and hate myself all the way home!" It's just like those horses, you feel like you have NO right to your OWN will. They are the masters and you MUST say yes. God I hated that FEELING!!! |
| Subject: | Cont. Thread: "Breaking the member's will" |
| Date: | Feb 02 12:31 |
| Author: |
| I just saw the post ...... But I'm MAD AS HELL after
reading it. I NEED TO VENT!!! When you put on underwear that you hate... When you stay a mission that you don't feel good about... When you endure Temple Rites and penalties that disgust you... When you're pressured into bearing a "testimony" you don't really have... When you grudgingly give up ten percent of your income that you need elsewhere... When you clean church toilets on a Saturday that you wanted to spend with your family... When you let others interrogate you and your family so they can intimidate you and match up your stories... When you let a bunch of old men dictate your sex life... When you lie to be acceptable to your neighbors... When you monthly gather info on your neighbors... When you let a church come between you and your wife, or your kids... When you...When you...When you...It goes on and on. Come up with your own list and examples and we'll be here forever. The final point is this: When you always do what THEY want, instead of what YOU want! Guess what? THEY'VE BROKEN YOUR WILL! |
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church - www.exmormon.org