| Subject: | TBMs dance around the issue of GBH's "I don't know that we teach that" |
| Date: | Sep 26 16:34 2003 |
| Author: | kc (note lots of documentation and links below and see also: 140 Was God Once a Man or Not? |
| In an IM conversation with a TBM [Mormon] about Hinckley's
[current Mormon prophet] denial of God once being a man, I got the biggest song and dance yet: kc: Why did he say he "didn't know" that we teach that? mormon: He reiterated that he didn't know whether or not it was being covered at individual Church locations, because though it isn't covered in universally planed Sunday topics, some people still discuss other things at Church that aren't on the agenda, but the President couldn't have been sure of such conditions... kc: They didn't ask that. They asked if the church as a whole believes that God was once a man. And we do! mormon: bI believe that Larry King used the word "teach" in his question, and not "believe"... kc: Nitpicky. He was asking what the church doctrine is, and Hinckley did not take the opportunity to say, yes, this is truth. mormon: In cases like this, it becomes necessary to nitpick. If you look at the Presidents full response, in context, it makes good sense. And if he felt uncomfortable giving an in-depth response, then I can see why, on the premise of "milk before meat." It is no small doctrine of which he spoke... kc: but he left nonMormons with the impression that we do NOT believe God was once a man. mormon: Well, it's too bad if they took it that way, but he didn't deny having such a belief, and at least the public wasn't in danger of choking on the meat, so to speak... |
| Subject: | Morg GA's don't give eccliastical replys to the press, they give political replies. |
| Subject: | The church shouldn't worry about non-members "choking on the meat".... |
| Date: | Sep 26 16:40 |
| Author: | TheMollusk |
| ....since it's been swallowing crow quite a bit as
of late on many fronts. Besides, Packer is the only one called of God to be concerned about meat choking. End of story. |
| Subject: | It was his intention to deceive and obfuscate. |
| Date: | Sep 26 18:39 |
| Author: | Segue |
| He wanted to leave the impression that the church
doesn't teach this doctrine - he lied. "We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies." - Official LDS Church website (from the book Gospel Principles) He did it again here: Q: “There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?” A: “I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about.” Q: “So you're saying the church is still struggling to understand this?” A: “Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly. We believe that the glory of God is intelligence and whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the Resurrection. Knowledge, learning, is an eternal thing. And for that reason, we stress education. We're trying to do all we can to make of our people the ablest, best, brightest people that we can.” Interview of Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley San Francisco Chronicle Sunday, April 13, 1997 Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer |
| Subject: | The Hinckster Tries to pull a Fast ONE... |
| Date: | Sep 27 04:44 |
| Author: | Pericles |
| ...and if there is something I detest, it is someone
trying to pull a fast one...attempting to deceive. If there is anything that really sets my gag reflex off it is this single issue, that "little couplet" as GBH is fond of referring to Lorenzo R. Snow's aphorism. Hinckley knew what he was saying; he is the sharpest pencil in the pack when it comes to dealing with the press. In fact, GBH is the "founding father" of the Public Communications Department of LDS, Incorporated. First, check out this link, http://www.desnews.com/confer/97fall/saturday_transcripts.htm which will take you to the October 1997 General Conf. session on Saturday, then click here, http://www.desnews.com/confer/97fall/talks/op0vzq7q.htm (which can also authoritatively be found here, http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-32-1,00.html) and you will get GBH's take on all the media coverage that year of the 150th anniversary of the mormon pioneers arrival in the Great Salt Lake Valley. The relevant passage is found in the 3rd paragraph, The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church. Now missing is an audio/video file of this talk (they have only of late started putting both on their website, and it is not available for purchase via the catalog) because then you get a chance to take on The Hinckster in all of his glory. As I recall, at the end of the above quoted paragraph, GBH smiles and lets loose a gentle laugh, with the live audience following on cue and laughing along with The Hinckster. It was along the lines of, "those gentile rubes, when are they going to figure out that they cannot catch me in a lie". Yes, that year GBH gave three major media interviews. One to Dan Lattin of the San Francisco Chronicle (found here, http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1997/04/13/SC36289.DTL with a handy disection found here, http://lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml). The second interview was with Richard Ostling for TIME magazine (a copy of this article is found here, http://lds-mormon.com/time.shtml make sure you read the letters at the bottom of this link). And a third, which I cannot recall at this moment, and do not have available for ready reference. And then last year I believe, Hinckley gave another major interview to the New Yorker magazine, and again he was asked about that couplet. Again, the usual... (sorry, I could not dig up the link on that; perhaps someone else can...). Bottomline? GBH cannot play it straight and come clean on the long taught and believed DOCTRINE of the LDS Church that man can become God. Why? Because they know that to come clean on this would be to expose themselves as nonchristian according to everything that defines christianity. Nothing makes me more angry, with the single exception being their cruel temple "wedding" policy that excludes all but the most faithful, about LDS Inc than this single area. And it so typifies the lies that are peddled to the unsuspecting public, and LDS members as well. Shame on them; shame on GBH (esp since he seems to know no shame in this regard). Pericles |
| Subject: | Wait! Wait! Here is the link for the New Yorker article... |
| Date: | Sep 27 04:56 |
| Author: | Pericles |
| http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?fact/020121fa_FACT1 and here is the relevant section (found starting in the section The Leader, the 6th paragraph down), In the Mormon scheme, every person is a potential divinity. The adage "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be" expresses the Mormon belief that God was once a human being, with a wife and children. But Hinckley did not seem interested in discussing matters of theology. When I asked him to characterize God's connubial relationship, he replied, "We don't speculate on that a lot. Brigham Young said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don't know what he meant by that." Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of the Lord, as Young was called, he said, "There he is, right there. I'm not going to worry about what he said about those things." I asked whether Mormon theology was a form of polytheism. "I don't have the remotest idea what you mean," he said impatiently. "More than one god." "Yes, but that's a very loose term," he replied. "We believe in eternal progression." By that he meant that human beings can evolve toward godhood by following the Mormon path. "You want to be a reporter always?" he said. "You want to be a scrub forever, through all eternity? We believe that life, eternal life, is real, that it's purposeful, that it has meaning, that it can be realized. I wouldn't describe us as polytheistic." Ok, would anyone, like Randy J., chime in now with all the OFFICIAL teachings of the LDS Church on this? Pericles |
| Subject: | and Clinton didn't have sexual relations either... |
| Date: | Sep 27 09:00 |
| what amazes me is that TBMs most of whom are GOP and
hate Clinton for his transgressions don't see the similarity in response (for the record I don't care about the man's personal life, but I detest being lied to) Diane |
| Subject: | GBH has said he doesn't know MANY TIMES... |
| Date: | Sep 27 09:18 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| "I beg of you, my brethren and sisters, to bear
in mind the solemn fact that the same divine authority, the same
inspiration that came from God, our Father, which enabled the Prophet
Joseph Smith to speak of the future history of this work, is with the
Israel of God today. A Prophet of God stands in the midst of the
people now, clothed upon with every gift, key, power, and authority,
that was given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and that same inspiration,
that same power to penetrate the future, to comprehend the purposes of
the Almighty, is with the Priesthood that is in our midst today. ...
There should be no questioning of the wisdom of the counsel that is
imparted by the servants of the Lord; but, rather, we should look
back over the history of this people and endeavor to understand what has
been accomplished under the direction of this authority, and when we
comprehend the marvelous character of that history, we will feel in our
hearts to trust the God of heaven, and in trusting our Father in heaven,
we honor His Priesthood on earth, and faithfully strive to carry, out
the counsel of that Priesthood." - Elder Joseph W. McMurrin, General Conference, April 1902 Behold the words of the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley! "Now we are at war. Great forces have been mobilized and will continue to be. Political alliances are being forged. We do not know how long this conflict will last. We do not know what it will cost in lives and treasure. We do not know the manner in which it will be carried out. It could impact the work of the Church in various ways." "No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time." "I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us." "Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it. I can assure you that we who are responsible for the management of the affairs of the Church will be prudent and careful as we have tried to be in the past. The tithes of the Church are sacred." - Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Times in Which We Live,” October 2001 General Conference (Ensign, Nov. 2001, Page 72) "I hope that prayer will take on a new luster in our lives. None of us knows what lies ahead. We may speculate, but we do not know." - Gordon B. Hinckley, “Till We Meet Again,” Ensign, Nov. 2001, Page 89 "Brigham Young said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don't know what he meant by that." Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of the Lord, as Young was called, Hinckley said, "There he is, right there. I'm not going to worry about what he said about those things." I asked whether Mormon theology was a form of polytheism. "I don't have the remotest idea what you mean," Hinckley said impatiently. - Hinckley Interview in "Lives of the Saint", New Yorker, January 2002 http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?fact/020121fa_FACT1 "Beyond the wonderful and descriptive words found in sections 76 and 137 [D&C 76; D&C 137] we know relatively little concerning the celestial kingdom and those who will be there. At least some of the rules of eligibility for acceptance into that kingdom are clearly set forth, but other than that, we are given little understanding." "The next question you ask is why Eve was created from Adam. I can only respond that an all-wise Creator did it that way...." "Now, Virginia, you call attention to the statement in the scriptures that Adam should rule over Eve. (See Gen. 3:16.) You ask why this is so. I do not know." "You ask whether men are more important than women. I am going to turn that question back to you. Would any of us be here, either men or women, without the other?" - Gordon B. Hinckley, “Daughters of God,” Ensign, Nov. 1991, Page 97 "Question: There are some significant differences in your beliefs [and other Christian churches]. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man? Hinckley: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." - Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1 From a interview Jan 29th, 2002 conducted by reporter Helmut Nemetschek, ZDF television, Germany, at Salt Lake City, Utah, in the Church Administration Building: "Question: Until 1978 no person of color attained the priesthood in your church. Why it took so long time to overcome the racism? Hinckley: I don’t know. I don’t know. I can only say that. But it’s here now. We’re carrying on a very substantial work on Africa for instance and in Brazil. We’re working among their people developing them." - Interview Jan 29th, 2002 conducted by reporter Helmut Nemetschek, ZDF television, Germany, at Salt Lake City, Utah, in the Church Administration Building. http://www.mormonismi.net/artikkelit/hinckley_video.html "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? Hinckley: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it." - Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, Time Magazine, Aug 4, 1997 http://home.teleport.com/~packham/gbh-god.htm TBMs can't squirm out of it. Their leader is acting like a CEO, not a prophet. |
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church - www.exmormon.org |