| Subject: | Since Mormonism is a cult, shouldn't there be tolerance and sympathy for those still under its spell? |
| Date: | Aug 07 09:07 2003 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| There has been a lively debate lately over how
cultish or insidious Mormonism is. Cults are about control. The more
cultish an org, the less control its victims have, and, therefore, the
less responsibility they have for their actions. It has often been
expressed here that Latter-Day Saints are unexceptional. Assuming, then,
that they have no common character flaw that attracts them to the cult,
why does there seem to be so much intolerance for active Mormons? |
| Subject: | Intolerance breeds intolerance |
| Date: | Aug 07 09:28 |
| Author: | Wouldn't you like to know, COB |
| I have never known a people more intolerant than
your active Utah Mormon. Their intolerance in Utah breeds non-Mormon
intolerance towards them. It has happened everywhere they have lived
from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois. Get a bunch of Mormons
concentrated together and they are impossible to live with. That is not
so true in the mission field when they are separate, but get them
together at church and they revert back to the Utah roots. Together they
are a dangerous force. |
| Subject: | Although I believe there is some truth to you comment, I once had a smoking non-member Utah residence who took issue. |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:08 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| I worked in downtown SLC and he was a client. He
told me he had been critical of Mormons before leaving Utah for Hawaii.
He said the bigotry, racism, and intolerance there was so much worse he
returned to Utah with a new perspective. He told me that his new
attitude led to a close relationship with many Latter-Day Saints. As an
example of Mormon tolerance, he said he hadn't had a single one make any
comments critical of his smoking habit. |
| Subject: | Pity? Yes. Tolerance? No. |
| Date: | Aug 07 09:28 |
| Author: | Byronia |
| Mail Address: |
| There is a great deal of pity (speaking for myself,
anyway, I pity them) for people who are still in the Morgue or whose
fate it may be to be ensnared by it. That's partly why I feel intolerant
toward the organization and want to see it destroyed from its
foundation. I want the suffering to stop. I'm sure that's not an
uncommon sentiment amongst Ex-Mormons. |
| Subject: | Re: Since Mormonism is a cult, shouldn't there be tolerance and sympathy for those still under its spell? |
| Date: | Aug 07 09:29 |
| Author: | Mad |
| Yes absolutely and seldom is that ever seen on this
BB and when it is, that person gets flamed. For some reason, some exmos
seem to forget what it was like to be “plugged in.” They forget how
powerful the teachings are and how emotionally tied TBMs are. We believe
we have become so enlightened since finding out about the fraud, yet we
become close minded to those who are still being emotionally manipulated
and tricked by the Morg. We, of all people, should understand the Morg
psyche. If we are so enlightened then we should be the ones with more
understanding and hell, must I say it….Christ-like! I understand that this is a recovery BB and have used it myself to whine, bitch and vent, but in the end, I have learned more compassion towards my TBM family. They aren’t ready to be “unplugged” and who am I to criticize or degrade them? I was once plugged in too. Since leaving the Morg I have learned what true morality, integrity, kindness and goodness is. I have been able to make a conscious decision to love my neighbor and those who scorn and hate me. Why? b/c I see life for what it is now. I see and understand Moism for what it is and I find more compassion for those who have been or are still blinded by any kind of religion or dangerous philosophy. I do not believe we can call the Morg a cult, but that is no reason for me to not appreciate what TBMs are subjected to. Also, I have a clearer understanding of TBMs losing family members to unbelief b/c I was in their shoes at one time. I have compassion and still understand the great gut wrenching loss that causes. I think we all need to remember what we came from and what our loved ones are still in and stop using our ExMoism as a reason for arrogance and intolerance. My 2cents Mad |
| Subject: | There's a difference between pity and enabling. |
| Date: | Aug 07 09:49 |
| Author: | Cheryl |
| I do think people here care about TBMs even though
the people here suffer from the TBM cult attitudes and mistreatment. I think it's a mistake to take tolerance to a point of feeding, aiding and abetting the church's intolerance of outsiders. As a teacher, parents sometimes told me to be tolerant of their children's bullying or tantrums in my classroom. They thought there were good reasons their kids mistreated others. Well I could pity those poor, misguided kids, but I tried not to enable them to continue their mean and self-defeating behaviors. Knowing why people act as they do, does not mean we are constrained to absorb mistreatment or feed disfuntional behavior. |
| Subject: | Very, very good point |
| Date: | Aug 07 10:02 |
| Author: | Iris |
| We've all been through the self-righteousness state.
Maybe others not as much as myself, but I know we have all been guilty
of some degree of "Mormon Despicable Behavior". The repellence I feel towards it is due mainly to the fact that I can't stand the memory of having been so deeply a part of it. I guess that the more I distance myself from it, emotionally, the more I can see TBMs in a benevolent light, feeling sorry for them. Still, teachings and behaviors that have obviously negative effects on people, should always make me mad - and that includes racism, sexism, abuse of the weak, violence - coming from all sources, not only mormonism. |
| Subject: | Very thoughtful. Intolerance of the Morg, I understand. Its victims are another matter. nt |
| Subject: | Many of us are able to successfully differentiate between Mormons and Mormonism... |
| Date: | Aug 07 10:13 |
| Author: | Ron G. |
| ...that concept is nothing new to this board. It's
an issue that has been discussed and mulled over many times here in the
past. I feel that the deeper debate is if we, as ex- and non-Mormons, have a responsibility to actively draw people away from Mormonism, the way Mormonism tries to draw new members into itself. If someone were suffering a terrible disease, and not even aware of it, (or even thought that the disease was a "blessing"), would we have a responsibility to give them the true diagnosis? (I'm not a doctor, but I liked playing one as a child...) :-) Ron |
| Subject: | I LOL at the Dr comment |
| Date: | Aug 07 10:31 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| And regarding the responsibility to give them the
true diagnosis movement, I say think globally, act locally. Like JS said in the D&C, If ye save but one soul, great shall be your joy......blah, blah, blah....... I've already 'seen the light', I am hoping to save my own children from years of guilt, confusion and manipulation that LDS, Inc holds dear. If I help out friends, extended family, neighbors or co-workers in the process, then even greater shall be my joy. BUT, like we all know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Nobody is going to approach a coffee brewing, beer sizzy - zoggying, unapproved material reading, knowledgeable on history, policy, culture and 'doctrine' sleep-less insomniac about even the smallest doubt. That would be like trying to get a Chevy salesman to sell you a new Ford, or for you techophiles: asking an apple salesman to sell you a new PC. Need to break out my commitment pattern and review the BRT section, don't I? And, eh, Ron, on a side note, you seem to be a cool guy to hang with, could I buy you a frosty brew some time? |
| Subject: | I agree 100% that people have to be ready to hear it... |
| Date: | Aug 07 12:35 |
| Author: | Ron G. |
| ...I'm not personally advocating proselytizing, but
it's an issue that's also been discussed here before, in conjunction
with the current one. I'm doing my best to show my wife and 10 year old son that non-Mormonism is a viable alternative to their current lifestyle. To make that work I have to be just as much of a full-time ambassador for Ex-Mormonism as I was for Mormonism, back in the day. So if you make that a frosty (diet) root beer, you're on! :-) Ron |
| Subject: | I wish we could help them, but I don't think there's a lot we can do. |
| Date: | Aug 07 10:41 |
| Author: | Byronia |
| Mail Address: |
| I had an ultimately positive effect on my family
when I left the Church. It was hard. They thought I was insane for a
couple of years and then it dawned on them that I was right and they
left, too. It has to be their own decision, though. As far as helping
non-family members out of the Cult, I don't know what we can do. Their
thinking about us is already pre-programmed (diabolically so!) by the
Church. Believe me! I wish I could do something for them. I hate seeing people miserable, afraid and feeling guilty all the time. Whenever I see mishies I want to take them home, feed them and deprogram them. I'm afraid that in reality, though, there's just not a lot we can do besides be true to ourselves and hope that others wake up before their entire lives are devoured by the Morgue. |
| Subject: | Agreed... |
| Date: | Aug 07 12:38 |
| Author: | Ron G. |
| ...we need to watch for "teaching
moments," while being careful not to further alienate them. Some people are just too comfortable where they're at now, and will never be ready to leave. Others are dealing with nagging doubts, and it probably couldn't hurt to throw a little judicious fuel on the fire now and then... My 2¢ Ron |
| Subject: | I have a great deal of empathy and compassion for those still trapped in the Motrix |
| Date: | Aug 07 10:39 |
| Author: | elee |
| I, too, make a distinction between individual
members (people I know and love) and the organization and leadership
which keep those individuals ensnared. It is the church institution that
takes the brunt of my enmity. It is rare that I encounter the obnoxious, in-your-face TBM and even more rare still that I confront that particular dingus. It is pointless and a waste of energy to boot. The fact that my day to day life is practically Mormon free is one of the greater ironies of my existence, considering I live in SLC. I am also not of the opinion that I should "help people out of Mormonism". Unless they come to me for advice. If asked, I will give direct answers. I still have two mormon friends from my mormon days in Utah Valley. One lives on the east coast, so we mostly just exchange emails around the holidays. We never discuss religion. The other lives in Utah Valley, just went through a brutal divorce and is getting remarried on Saturday (not in the temple yet) and guess who is going to his wedding? That's right: me. Without hesitation, without intent of de-converting him, but only to be supportive. I also, as a post-mo, spoke at his farewell and homecoming. He is a dear friend and although I see him occasionally engaging in destructive behavior (he is "same-sex-attracted", but cured, according to the church), it is not my place to pre-empt his decisions. His mistakes are his to make. And when he comes to me for empathy and compassion when things invariably blow up in his face, I am there. Always have been. Always will be. Needless to say, when I'm feeling frustrated, I come here to vent, as I find it inappropriate to vent my frustrations at him. I love my friend, but I hate the institution for what it does to him. |
| Subject: | That's very considerate. I am trying to determine the appropriate posture on deconverting others. |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:01 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| So far, I have taken your approach. I am available
for questions, but haven't been proactive. I definitely know some of my
active LDS family and friends are not ready for the truth. |
| Subject: | It may be about balancing competition and cooperation. |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:12 |
| Author: | Gaucho |
| Mail Address: |
| Let's skip the mormon/ex-mormon setup you've alluded
to with sympathy and tolerance for a minute and go with something
simpler, like me/you. In my eyes, we are social animals with fuzzy hierarchical demarcations. To allow us to eat, sleep and breed together we have to give, and we have to take. This can be called a dance of alternating submission and dominance. It doesn't matter if it is about religion, business, sex, etc. Functional adults willingly adjust their dominant/submissive stance according to their ethical mappings in order to reach a cooperative goal. Dysfunctional adults do not. This is called competition, with one party trying to maintain dominance at all times. Your average rabid tbm is taught to dominate, to become a king or queen in the eternal hierarchy, along with being told to be as submissive as a lamb only to god and their evangelical leaders, damn the rest. Thus when I interact with fervent tbms, I am treated to a passive-aggressive dance where from their perspective I'm never allowed to lead intellectually, being an apostate and all. In such cases where I am met head on with constant competition, I fell it necessary to return the competition in kind, just out of respect =) In these situations, I don't think tolerance and sympathy are the best course of action. |
| Subject: | I don't see it as competitive. We have the truth and they don't. |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:27 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| Mail Address: |
| I don't feel threatened, which allows me to deal
patiently with any dispute. I really feel that if a TBM isn't ready to
explore the hard issues, there is no basis for a conversation. I don't
want to argue unless I believe I can derive some additional insight for
myself. |
| Subject: | Does anybody else have a problem with the term "tolerance"? |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:16 |
| Author: | elee |
| Mail Address: |
| I do. It implies that someone is just putting up
with you, even though you are wrong, wrong, WRONG!!! I expect respect and give it in return. |
| Subject: | I like "respect" even better. |
| Subject: | No, because that won't help them, or help us deal with them... |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:37 |
| Author: | Brian B. |
| It was always about placing integrity and courage
above sentimental and imaginary self-interest. Some will never be able
to leave, because they have too much genetic servitude to express. |
| Subject: | Understanding and respect, yes. |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:49 |
| Author: | TLC |
| Indulgence to the point that it affects us, no.
Mormons are typically boundaryless, imposing themselves and their
beliefs on everyone, regardless of the consequences or an individual's
desire to be so imposed upon. For those of us with family and friends still involved in mormonism, it becomes a fine line. I've learned to walk that fine line with my family as they have with me. But it took a lot of work and a lot of falling down and getting back up to figure it out. Respect for another person is hard to maintain when it's not being reciprocated. I had to literally teach my family how to be respectful of me, both as a non-member and as a non-heterosexual. I showed them how to be respectful of me by being respectful of them. But I also had to draw some clear boundaries and insist that they not trespass them. I'm living proof that mormons and non-mormons can get along, even famously at times. But it wasn't sympathy or tolerance for my family that worked the magic, because in my heart I really do deeply dislike the religion that they adhere to. I have no "sympathy" for mormonism or mormons. But I do honor their right to choose what works best for them and in that have found respect; respect for their choices and respect for what makes them happy. It might sound like I'm quibbling about semantics here. But sympathy implies feeling pity for someone and there's even perhaps a little condescension involved in the word. That's not what I feel for my mormon family. I respect their right to choose what works for them. And as I've learned to be respectful of them, they've learned to be respectful of me. I don't want my family's pity or sympathy for me because I'm not a mormon or because I'm not a heterosexual. I just want respect. I give that respect and I get it back. Tolerance means putting up with something. I don't want to be tolerated - I want to be respected. So I've learned not to tolerate my family's mormonism but rather to respect it for what it is. Together we've forged new relationships based on respect and boy is it working beautifully at this point. When we dig deeper into the implications of words, there's all sorts of subtexts that come into play. For me personally, the words tolerance and sympathy leave too much room for continued antagonism and misunderstanding. The dictionary defines the word respect as being, among other things: "...worthy of esteem; to regard with honor." My family is worthy of more than just my tolerance or sympathy. They're worthy of my esteem and my honor. I've found that by giving them those things, I've been given them in return. Somehow, it works. |
| Subject: | Amen, Brother Tom. :) |
| Date: | Aug 07 11:56 |
| Author: | elee |
| I have the same type of relationship with my two
remaining TBM friends. It took the better part of a decade for them to
respect my choices and to quit pitying me. Pity and Tolerance are both condescending and juvenile. Respect is for adults. As always, you've summed it up very nicely. Thanks. |
| Subject: | What you said is profound and I prefer "respect", as well. |
| Date: | Aug 07 12:21 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| Mail Address: |
| I used tolerance and sympathy because somehow I
perceive them to have a little more universality. Tolerance is a
favorite buzzword and one usually has sympathy for victims. However, as
you so eloquently point out, respect and understanding are even more
appropriate terms. Is your deconversion story included on this board? When did you realize you were gay? What was your family's reaction and do they feel you are sinning by pursuing your lifestyle? As I remember, David Haight had a son who was gay. It seems to me that when a TBM family has to confront that issue directly, the conventional wisdom suddenly seems far less wise. I would say the Church's policy toward homosexuality is one that increasingly became problematic for me and contributed to my disaffection. |
| Subject: | Links to my story. |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:44 |
| Author: | TLC |
| I don't know where to find my stories here on the
Story & Biography Board but here's the link to my website, which
admin has approved my posting here. http://www.gaymormonstories.com Click on the link "Your Host" and you'll get a brief overview of the who, what, where, when, why and how. |
| Subject: | Thanks. I just visited your site. I think I'm going to get an education. |
| Subject: | No and for the same reasons... |
| Date: | Aug 07 12:06 |
| Author: | Sobriquet |
| I don't have any tolerance or compassion for any
elitist, bigot, racist, or homophobe. I was discriminated against, beat up, laughed at, shunned, and subjected to all kinds of brutality by so-called "Saturday's Warriors" and their parents while growing up in a small Utah town during the 1960s and 70s because I wasn't BIC, my parents were divorced, my dad drank *GASP* coffee and beer, and I was poor. I don't hate Mormons by any means, but I'm very cautious around them because my 47 years' experience with them has caused me not to trust most of them. Some of my family are still Mormons, and I love them very much. I DO hate, however, Mormonism and the Mormon church because I think it's destructive and evil. I've been a sober alcoholic for 11½ years. Thank gawd my husband and my doctor didn't tolerate or sympathize with me back in 1992 or else I'd be dead. When someone is taking a self-destructive or dysfunctional path, you're not doing them any favors by being tolerant or sympathetic. I'm especially not going to be tolerant and sympathetic when it's impacting MY life. You seem to be quite intent on continually bringing attention to the "positive" aspects of Mormonism, Marvelous. Why is that? Don't you think it's sort of inappropriate to admonish victims to search for and acknowledge the positive attributes of their victimizer? Would you go to a rape recovery board and urge rape victims to be tolerant and sympathetic towards their rapist? I don't think I'm the only one who believes that you're acting very much like a troll on this board. |
| Subject: | What I try to be is a thoughtful critic. |
| Date: | Aug 07 12:42 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| There are things I like about this board that keep
me coming back. I have gotten a lot of good information and insight, and
that includes understanding of the pain that others, such as yourself,
have suffered. I was not so unfortunate and have a different
perspective. I am hoping my perspective may help bring greater
understanding to others as theirs has to me. Two things do bug me. One is unwarranted and exaggerated accusations and claims. The truth is the truth. As much as I may dislike something, I don't believe in maligning it unjustly, and that happens here. The other is intolerance of others, particularly the victims of Mormonism. You were hurt by it and should have compassion for those who are in it still. I have never asked anyone to have compassion for the LDS Church. Honesty, yes. Compassion, no. One would think the process of deconversion would make one more objective and tolerant, not less. Sadly, that doesn't always seem to be the case. I invite you, or anyone else, to correct my mistakes and misperceptions. I have one agenda: detecting and understanding truth. I don't claim to have all the answers, but am sincere in wanting them. It was my inherent intellectual honesty that brought me to the point I'm at now. Unlike you, I was raised in a loving TBM family. My experiences in the Church were almost universally positive and I still believe in many of the values the Church promotes. There are some, however, that I take strong issue with and I no longer believe many of the doctrines that are fundamental to the Church. At considerable inconvenience (I won't say sacrifice because I believe following one's conscience, however difficult, is best), I have begun withdrawing from my affiliation. Almost all of my family and friends, are TBMs. This process is going to be very painful, and I'm really just beginning it. Your analogy about a rape center is one that has come to my mind recently and has given me pause. I do want to be sensitive, but always within the framework of truth. I will continue to speak up when unjust or false accusations are made, even when the object is the hated LDS Church. I'm not going from one illusion to another. I hope visitors to this board will have the equanimity to contemplate my remarks and not react prejudically. |
| Subject: | Remember that several things are in play here |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:06 |
| Author: | The Magus |
| and one of them is that in addition to the pain and
anger felt by apostates who - in my opinion - were genuinely raped and
betrayed by the church, there is also pain and anger expressed here by
gays and lesbians who are not only hurt by the LDS church, but also by
non-LDS in society in general. I've noticed that this board contains a higher percentage of messages from gays and lesbians than is true for the general population. So I think you're seeing a double whammy of anger directed at the church. That is, if you perceive more anger than you might have thought was appropriate, I say there is a justifiable reason and that if you consider that perspective, you may conclude as I have that the problem lies with the church and how corrosive it is in peoples' lives. In that case, telling the victims to pipe down is probably not only inappropriate, but counterproductive. The Magus |
| Subject: | That's cool. I've come to that conclusion. |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:45 |
| Author: | Marvelous |
| Mail Address: |
| It's taken time, but I have come to realize how hurt
others have been. Remember, because of my very different experience, it
has been a process. I am more comfortable with the anger now and try to
remember the pain that's behind it. At the same time, it is very tough to bite my lip when false or exaggerated claims and accusations are made. It's like: isn't there enough genuine material to damn the Church without resorting to hyperbole and misinformation? Also, there have been hateful statements made about Mormons in general that border on bigotry. It's a tough balancing act, because I want to be sensitive, but not at the expense of honesty. I don't know if I can pull it off. I also wonder about the need for others to be respectful of my experience and feelings. This is a semi-public, not private forum. In a sense it's therapy, yes, but it's also an informational source. Posts are read by many people: ex-mos, TBMs, nevermos, etc. Is it fair to the public to have false information disseminated? Is it fair to villify TBMs? Those are my two issues. Venting anger can be therapeutic, but does it have to be at the expense of truth and goodwill? Although my agenda, at present, is not to deconvert TBMs, I'll bet many who have visited this board haven't gotten to the good stuff that would open their eyes because they couldn't get past the vitriol and distortion. I doubt things will change, but I can at least be true to what I now believe and call it as I see it. I hope that doesn't piss off too many of my fellow travelers. |
| Subject: | Hmmmmm.... |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:17 |
| Author: | elee |
| Mail Address: |
| I have begun withdrawing from my affiliation.
Almost all of my family and friends, are TBMs. This process is going to
be very painful, and I'm really just beginning it. I think it will be interesting to see how you feel about this issue once you're a little further down the trail, Marvelous. I sincerely hope things go smoothly for you. But you've only just taken the first step. How "out" are you with your TBM friends and family? What do they know about how you feel? |
| Subject: | Troll? |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:15 |
| Author: | Hopping Through |
| Mail Address: |
| Your quote, addressed to Marvelous: "You seem to be quite intent on continually bringing attention to the "positive" aspects of Mormonism, Marvelous. Why is that? Don't you think it's sort of inappropriate to admonish victims to search for and acknowledge the positive attributes of their victimizer? Would you go to a rape recovery board and urge rape victims to be tolerant and sympathetic towards their rapist? I don't think I'm the only one who believes that you're acting very much like a troll on this board." Like Marvelous (and I don't mean to paint him with my brush. We are two different people with two different life experiences who have never met, so I don't mean to speak for him.), I was raised in a very loving TBM home where we were taught specifically to think for ourselves and to take ownership of our own religious views. I felt like the theology gave me reasonable answers to life questions as I was growing up. I had very good friends with whom I grew up and had real life experiences. I have TBM family who make the choice to serve in the church and who are okay with giving their time to service. Sure, they resent the time commitment sometimes, but a lot of people resent having to go to work 40+ hours a week. For me, the theology became too narrow, there is much I think is wrong, and the culture is pretty boring to me. But I don't hate the MORG, TBMs or anything else. When it was time to move on, I made the decision to move on. Most of my TBM friends and family have had no problem with it. They don't shove things down my face, I don't shove things down their face. They accept my decision to pursue another path (in my case multiple paths) and I respect their decision to focus within the MORG. People on this board are very quick to flame and attack anyone who "insists" that the MORG was not the great Satan in their life experience. When people constantly pick at the negatives in the MORG, no one seems to chastise them for their lack of even-handedness. There are all kinds of ways to be ex-mo. Why we insist -- as the MORG does -- that there is only one way to be something is beyond me. And please -- can we please, please, please, please, please stop calling people who disagree with us "trolls"? The comparison to rape may work for some, but I never felt "victimized" by the church, so the rape analogy seems "over the top" to my experience. Certainly, I wouldn't want a rape victim to express sympathy for her attacker. A very good friend of mine was raped, and it never entered my mind to tell her to get over it and try to understand her rapist's frame of mind or perspective. She was attacked in a bus terminal and was truly victimized beyond any choice of her own. Apparently, contrary to the experience of many others out here, I made my own choices about what I did and did not do. The MORG did not "rape" me. |
| Subject: | My experience is very much like yours |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:28 |
| Author: | elee |
| Mail Address: |
| I was given the keys to my own spirituality at a
very young age and my family, unlike many TBM families, buoyed me up and
helped me stand up against the prevailing mormon sentiment of
conformity. I was in charge of my own religious perspective. Many here were dictated their religious beliefs by family and community. You know, those who are supposed to be most honest with you and most supportive of you? For a lot of folks here, the first informed choice they made was to leave the church. There is a tremendous difference between being given the tools (and permission) to choose one's own spiritual path and being told to choose one particular path or lose the love of those most dear. This is a reality for a lot of people here. And that familial love was withdrawn as a consequence of following their consciences. You and I and a few others here are the lucky ones, Hopping Through. It is no wonder to me that the rape analogy seems over the top to you. But it is most certainly apt to those who express such a feeling. It's about compassion for the wounded. Personally, I have a couple of opinions that would really and deeply piss off many people on this board. I don't express them here because it is inappropriate. I don't wish to change the way people choose to "recover" here. I choose to accept them, wherever they are along the path, and to be supportive. I do not consider myself victimized by the morg, either. I consider myself annoyed by them. But the church as an intstitution is unethical and until they seek to make ammends, I see no reason to overlook that behavior. |
| Subject: | No so much a troll, Sobriquet, just someone with ... |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:19 |
| Author: | Timothy |
| ... a little too much rose coloring in the glasses. Marvelous ponders: "The more cultish an org, the less control its victims have, and, therefore, the less responsibility they have for their actions." What a cop-out. I once had a co-worker who - when called on the carpet for doing something stupid - would reply: "Well, I was raised Catholic." Somehow, that ca-ca doesn't flush. Its the same argument Southern bigots use when called on the carpet for using the 'N' word. "Well, I was raised that way" ... OK, but if you know its wrong, then why don't you alter your behavior accordingly? In my 46 years, I've found that rational thought and logical debate is useless with these kind of people. Direct confrontation, on the other hand, seems to yield the best results. Some time ago, a co-worker stopped me to tell a 'N***er' joke. I halted his oratory in mid sentence by telling him that I do not approve of that kind of humor. He apologized for offending me. I told him that I was not so much offended by the joke itself, but more so by the fact that, before the joke, I figured he was more intelligent. A few days later, this same coworker and I were stopped by a fellow coworker who began to tell another 'N***er' joke. The first coworker stopped the second in mid-sentence by telling him: "We're not into that kind of humor." Mormonism doesn't stop people from thinking critically. It does, however, provide a crutch that most of its followers cling to because critical thinking does require considerable effort. Whether its the Southern Bigot, the Mormon or the person who was "raised catholic", there is no excuse for being stupid. Suggesting that we should be more tolerant towards those who've lost control of their lives falls into this category. Patronizing a person's woes will only serve to cripple that person. It may be less painful to do things that way, but who ultimately suffers as a result is what should be considered. And that's all I have to say about that! Timothy |
| Subject: | For me, being raped and savaged by the church... (language) |
| Date: | Aug 07 13:35 |
| Author: | TLC |
| Mail Address: |
| ...doesn't really quite come close to describing it.
There isn't enough time and energy to do it here though, so I'm just
going to have to say that for some of us, the savaging of our souls by
mormons is real, it's deep and its scars are hard to get rid of. I've been out of the church for nearly twenty years now and resigned my membership over two years ago. And yet I still feel such anger come up in me from time to time about being told from the time I was a child, that I was barely one step above murderers in the bigger scheme of things. Can you even begin to conceive of what it's like growing up with those words ringing in your ears? If you were never told that, it would be difficult if not impossible for you to understand how deeply it wounds the heart and how savagely it attacks and destroys one's self-esteem. Me? Barely better than a murderer? Where? How? In what universe? The f*cking inhumanity of it all. For those whose experience growing up in mormonism was positive and happy, all I can say is, I envy you. My experience was different and I'm still struggling after all these years, to rebuild what mormonism took away from me. At times the anger is almost overwhelming, similar I'm sure to the kind of anger that rape victims often feel towards their attackers. The analogy is spot on for those of us who were in so many different ways, raped by Mormonism. |
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church - www.exmormon.org |