| Subject: | Can you imagine a LESS-INSPIRED method of selecting new prophets? |
| Date: | Jun 04 02:26 2003 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| You hear the title all the time in Mormonism.
"Prophet, Seer and Revelator." The title immediately conjures
up imagery of mysticism, inspiration, infallible predictions, the
ability to call down thunderbolts from heaven or badly needed gentle
rain for a drought-stricken land. Those are the kinds of things that the
title "Prophet" brings to mind. Mormons are proud that they, alone among all contemporary religions, have an authentic "living prophet" leading their church at all times--just like in the Bible and the Book of Mormon (sort of, anyway, if you don't read those books too carefully). Often that is the main selling point made by Mormon missionaries. If you don't have an inspired living prophet, everyone just makes stuff up and sooner or later all you've got is another one of those "apostate" religious sects that only have part of the truth. Why would you even consider going to a church that's not led by a "living prophet"??? Given all the hype, you'd think that if there was one aspect of Mormonism in which the Mormon God would want to unmistakeably reveal his divine influence and show his hand, it would be in the selection of his one-and-only living prophet. Each successor would be chosen in a manner that, as fully as possible, conferred all the legitimacy and authority that God could give to one man. You would think that the choices would be so inspired that in hindsight, at least, the inspiration would become more and more obvious. No one would doubt that God inspired the choice of the new prophet. BUT It doesn't seem to work that way in the Mormon church. The Mormon church has adopted a fully automated seniority system for determining the selection of its living prophets. There is exactly 0% room for inspiration in this system. It's a formula--just like the conversion of dollars to euros to pesos at a specified exchange rate. TBMs, using their patented Circular Reasoning machine, have of course concluded that because (1) this is the way things are done, it must be (2) God's will, and (3) we know it's God's will because (4) this is the way things are done in God's restored Church, and (5) we know it's God's restored church because the living prophet says so, and (6) we know that the living prophet is a real living prophet because he obtained that position by virtue of his seniority, and (7) we know that his reaching that level of seniority was God's will because (go back to step 1). Oh the Brethren will tell you that they all prayed and fasted in the upper room of the temple before unanimously concluding that the Apostle with the most seniority should be the next president just like the last dozen or so successions. But we all know they could have been praying to Bozo the Clown, or reading Magic 8 Balls, playing with a Ouija Board or seeing which direction their boogers float in their hot Postum and they still would have come up with the same answer: SENIORITY RULES!!! Why even bother with the pretense of prayer and fasting? There's no room to receive any other answer. The only question that lends any suspense or drama to the procedure is whether the senior apostle can cling to life long enough to get the title officially bestowed on him by the other apostles. Then, even after the senior guy becomes president, his health often detiorates so rapidly that the Church is left with an incapacitated "living prophet" for years at a time and TBMs can only scratch their heads and wonder "what was God thinking?" Could there be any LESS-INSPIRED system for selecting God's one and only mouthpiece on earth??? |
| Subject: | when I was a kid, my teachers/parents told me that |
| Date: | Jun 04 09:24 |
| Author: | danboyle |
| Mail Address: |
| the prophet was selected by revelation/prayer. I was told how the process had gone on for years and EVERY TIME the selection was UNANIMOUS!! We'd even poke fun and the catholics and the black smoke/white smoke process they went through. Of course, this became just one more MORG LIE when one sees how the next prophet is really chosen..... |
| Subject: | Consider how SPs are chosen. |
| Date: | Jun 07 03:49 |
| Author: | Dude |
| Mail Address: |
| Do they automatically ordain the senior high
councilman to be the next SP? No, if they did that you would get SPs who
are too old, too narrow-minded, too obscurantist (from their years on
doing pointless high council stuff). If they can choose every SP by revelation, you would think with their collective inspiration they could choose the next Great Leader. The present system is as inspired as drawing lots (which, by the way, was done in the Bible I think and was regarded as inspired--I think some poor Israelite got strung up for taking war booty when he got the short straw). |
| Subject: | The fallacy in your reasoning. |
| Date: | Jun 04 09:51 |
| Author: | TBM - truly baffled mormon |
| Mail Address: |
| You assume that there is only one person on earth
who is good for the job. In fact, there are fourteen men all equally
qualified, with dozens of apprentices waiting in the wings, so giving
the senior apostle the job before he moves upstairs to be with his maker
is perfectly reasonable. If you don't like that one, how about this? God kills off any lesser qualified old farts to assure His chosen old fart is in the right place at the right time. |
| Subject: | assuming your argument was serious, a response |
| Date: | Jun 04 12:02 |
| Author: | spinner |
| Mail Address: |
| TBM - truly baffled mormon wrote: > You assume that there is only one person on earth who is good for the job. In fact, there are fourteen men all equally qualified, with dozens of apprentices waiting in the wings, so giving the senior apostle the job before he moves upstairs to be with his maker is perfectly reasonable. Response: OK, so each of the 15 men in the quorum of the 12 and first presidency is equally qualified? If that is the case, the whole prophet system doesn't make sense. Why would one be made head if they are all totally equal? If they are all equal and all receiving the same revelation, couldn't they just form a council of equals and decide everything by committee? The way the prophet is venerated in the church suggests that Mormons feel that there is some difference between him and the 12. Why is it reasonable to give it to the oldest? Would you really argue that currently it is reasonable to say that David B. Haight could handle the same responsibilities as, say, Jeffrey Holland? Let's face it, the succession system is merely a ploy to avoid nasty controversies over the choosing of new leadership. > > If you don't like that one, how about this? God kills off any lesser qualified old farts to assure His chosen old fart is in the right place at the right time. Response: Could you truly be serious? What kind of God would do this? He takes his best saints and puts them in charge, but then successively kills them off so that the very best one will be next in line when the current leader buys the farm. Do you believe this is really the best system an omnipotent and omniscient God could devise? I read and re-read your posts, thinking it might just be tongue-in-cheek. If it is, please ignore this post. If not, well, that was some odd reasoning even for a Mormon. |
| Subject: | I bow to you and your revealed truth. |
| Date: | Jun 04 12:25 |
| Author: | TBM - truly baffled mormon |
| Mail Address: |
| spinner wrote: > Let's face it, the succession system is merely a ploy to avoid nasty controversies over the choosing of new leadership. Truly inspired wisdom indeed. |
| Subject: | Re: The fallacy in your reasoning. |
| Date: | Jun 08 22:25 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| TBM - truly baffled mormon wrote: > You assume that there is only one person on earth who is good for the job. In fact, there are fourteen men all equally qualified, with dozens of apprentices waiting in the wings, so giving the senior apostle the job before he moves upstairs to be with his maker is perfectly reasonable. > > If you don't like that one, how about this? God kills off any lesser qualified old farts to assure His chosen old fart is in the right place at the right time. Point 1: I understand what you are saying, but given the broad pool of "equally [un]qualified" candidates and the pathetic track record in prophesying, seeing and revelatin' by the senior guys who actually do make it to official "prophet, seer and revelator" status, it doesn't really seem so "special" to have a "living prophet" leading the church, when you really think about it. It would be like the Acme Corporation bragging that they are led by a "living CEO". Since CEO is the leader's official title and the CEO is living, it would be a true statement. But it's hardly a selling point for the corporation, particularly if the CEO's actual performance is mediocre by any objective standard and any one of the "equally qualified" directors or junior managers could probably do the job at least as well. Every organization in the world is led by some kind of "living" leader. It's what the "living" leader does that makes it evident whether that person's ascension to the throne was an inspired choice or not. Furthermore, the fact that the automatic seniority system used by the Mormon Church so often leads to years at a time where God's one and only mouthpiece, the only man authorized by God to speak with supreme authority for and to the WHOLE Church, is incapacitated and unable to speak, makes the whole system seem like the least-inspired system in light of the fact that there are so many younger and healthier candidates who are "equally qualified" but have been frozen out of the top job by an automatic, mindless rigid seniority method of selection. Point 2: It's a good point. It's a point that has been made in the past by Spencer W. Kimball and others. And it makes God look like a cold-hearted bastard, who has no confidence in his collective apostles' ability to make inspired choices without an automatic system that requires a major assist by God in the form of killing off all senior apostles who are in the way of God's choice. Wouldn't it be more humane for the apostles to be inspired to make the right choice, even if the right choice wasn't the most senior apostle? Wouldn't it be more inspiring to assume that the more senior apostles who aren't chosen would be humble enough and inspired enough to accept being passed over without having to be killed? It seems that the whole system assumes that these great "spiritual leaders" are so obsessed with power and status that the only way a senior guy will peacefully stand aside is if he's dead. Given that there are so many ordinary Mormons who are much more humble and do not lust after power in the manner that GAs do, it really is an embarrassment to the Morg that God thinks so little of the spiritual character of the Church's leaders. |
| Subject: | I've never heard a rational TBM response to that question.... |
| Date: | Jun 08 22:40 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| They always say something like "it's a division
of labor, women raise the kids and men do the priesthood thing."
But what does that mean really? There are some women who would
definitely do the priesthood thing better than some of the male clowns
who do it and there are some men who do the kid-raising thing better. A truly "inspired" system doesn't need absolutely automatic divisions based on gender or seniority or any other arbitrary sorting system. It seems like the whole point of inspiration is to transcend the limits imposed by the short-sightedness, prejudices and automatic systems devised by humans. But TBMs have seemed to define "inspiration" as anything that conforms with their mindless traditions and conventions and have defined "apostasy" as anything that transcends or challenges those traditions and conventions. |
| Subject: | What is a prophet? |
| Date: | Jun 04 11:00 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| Mail Address: |
| The title immediately conjures up imagery of
mysticism, inspiration, infallible predictions, the ability to call down
thunderbolts from heaven or badly needed gentle rain for a
drought-stricken land. I don't know if any of that's required, though it would be nice. But I do expect anyone who claims to be a prophet, seer and revelator to at least be the wisest, most insightful and enlightened person I could find. In that sense the Mormon prophets fail miserably. |
| Subject: | Good point. Unfortunately their "wisdom" rarely departs from the |
| Date: | Jun 06 19:17 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| "pay, pray and obey" formula. TBMs are so
starved for anything remotely resembling real guidance from their
"living prophet" that they virtually had prophet-groupie
orgasms when Gordong B. Hinckley warned them off tattoos and body
piercings. "Oooh, oooh, oooh the prophet has spoken.... We are so
uniquely blessed!" If they only stopped to think about it for a moment, they'd realize that old men and old ladies have been giving that advice to youngsters for the last several decades. Could it be that they're all "prophets, seers and revelators"? ;o) |
| Subject: | It reminds me of an old Joke: A Pastor, a Priest and a Rabbi... |
| Date: | Jun 04 12:04 |
| Author: | PRAVDA |
| Mail Address: |
| Were deciding what portion to keep for themselves
and what to give to God for charities, from the donations of their
faithful. The Pastor said: "I put all the money in a basket, then I draw a circle with chalk on the floor and I toss the money in the air. Whatever falls inside the circle, I keep. The rest I give to God." The Rabbi continued: "I do the same thing. Except I keep whatever falls outside the circle and whatever falls inside I give to God." The Priest then said: "I just toss it up in the air and let God catch whatever he wants." Other selection methods: -Swimsuit competition -Chili Cookoff -Coloring contest -Karaoke -Hot dog swallowing -Higest card (5 out of 7) -Highest wart count -Arm wrestling competition -"Yo mama" contest -And of course, you can toss them all from a high place, and whoever falls inside a circle is the prophet. If they all miss, drop them again until someone does. Easy. - |
| Subject: | Joe Smith was young and "inspired". He could find more inspiration |
| Date: | Jun 05 09:54 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| in a rock in a hat than his successors have been
able to find in their whole lifetimes. No one can accuse Joe Smith of being an uninspired old church bureaucrat. When Emma started giving him a hard time about his adultery, it took no time at all for Joe to get "inspiration" in the form of a new commandment to practice polygamy. When Joe started attending the local Masonic lodge, it took him no time at all to be "inspired" to plagiarize their rituals for his new gimmick as a profit-seeking prophet. When old Chandler came to town with a mummy and Egyptian funeral scrolls, it took no time at all for Joe to make an "inspired" but totally bogus translation of the funeral texts into the personal diary of Abraham. When 14-year old Helen Mar Kimball caught Joe's eye, it took him no time at all to get "inspired" that she was supposed to be his new wife. Joe was young AND inspired. Unfortunately, it's been all downhill since then in the exciting "inspiration" department. Brigham's ruthless takeover was so messy that a consensus formed that seniority would decide the issue forevermore. No more messy takeover struggles. No more young, "inspired" prophets. Maybe they ought to consider tapping a thirty-something Elder to become the next prophet. I'd be all for it if it meant that we'd finally see another prophet who knows how to use a peepstone. ;0) |
| Subject: | The profit elect must be able to speak very slowly, in a monotone voice during general conference n/t |
| Subject: | How about voting like in "Survivor" |
| Date: | Jun 09 00:56 |
| Author: | I was THERE, dammit |
| Mail Address: |
| "I'm sorry Brother Packer...your torch
please...the tribe has spoken...it's time for you to go." if only... |
| Subject: | Doesn't relegating the process of Chief Seer Election |
| Date: | Jun 09 10:22 |
| Author: | rpm |
| Mail Address: |
| to seniority actually relegate it ultimately to God? If there is a God, and He controls human destinies, then this seems to be about the most Godlike method. Pull the mortals out of the process, put it all in the hands of Fate. This way, no mortal could mess it up. God decides. rpm |
| Subject: | Actually that seems to be how TBMs, including Spencer W. Kimball, |
| Date: | Jun 09 10:43 |
| Author: | Perry Noid |
| Mail Address: |
| prefer to explain the spiritual significance of
their automated seniority system/actuarial lottery method of choosing
God's chief mouthpiece on Earth. When you boil it all down, the essence of that argument is that whatever happens, just happens because that's the way God wants it to happen. And because nothing happens unless God wills it to happen, an automatic seniority system, a roll of the dice, an actuarial lottery, a drawing of straws are all selection methods that are equal to or better than an open-minded, prayerful, inspiration-seeking approach by the Apostles--possibly better because God just may allow the "free agency" of the Apostles to screw things up a bit. No danger of that happening in an automatic system where the Apostles have abandoned all thought and only go through the motions of praying for confirmation of a foregone conclusion. But it can't be very comforting to thoughtful TBMs to realize that God has so little trust in the ability of his Apostles to receive clear inspiration (or in his ability to deliver clear inspiration)that he prefers an automatic selection system that he can control by killing off unwanted Apostles and making their deaths look like accidents (or natural causes). If God has so little trust in his ability to get important messages to his "annointed", why should a TBM trust a single thing that comes out of the Apostles' mouths as being anything other than just another human making things up? Why not just accept David Koresh as your prophet if you happen to be on the ranch, because he wouldn't be the prophet if God didn't allow it to happen? Why not just accept Sun-Myung Moon as your spiritual leader if you were born into a Moonie family, because he wouldn't be your spiritual leader if God hadn't allowed it to happen? At the end of the day, the question is whether the authority claimed is legitimate. The track record of the Mormon prophets doesn't indicate that they are particularly inspired and the fact that they prefer to trust a rigid seniority system to determine prophetic succession, rather than their ability to receive inspiration, is just another brick of evidence adding weight to the proposition that the Mormon authority claims are not legitimate. |
| Subject: | You're right, |
| Date: | Jun 09 22:00 |
| Author: | rpm |
| Mail Address: |
| there is no God-given inspiration involved in the
seniority system of succession. If the truth were known, that's probably best, because: None of the remaining twelve or so Apostles could possibly unanimously agree on a successor. Like any committee, there would probably be plenty of politicking, backbiting, infighting and so forth to win votes. They probably realized this early on in the days of the church, and decided it would be best to "Leave it up to the Lord," and just follow a simple, no-brainer seniority system of succession. I remember hearing in F&T meeting not long ago a testimony from a good friend of mine, in tears, concerning this divinely appointed means of prophetic succession. He said, unlike other organizations that use man-made methods to ordain new leaders, the true church doesn't have to worry about all that: The Lord is in charge. It impressed him that when a prophet passes away, no one has to worry about the remaining leaders of the church botching it up, because, we already know who the next Prophet is going to be: the most senior Apostle. From the pulpit, he was extremely emotional about it. He apparently had a divine witness to the efficacy of this time-worn method. I was more embarrassed for him. rpm |
| Subject: | I tell everyone that they play |
| Date: | Jun 09 10:29 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| Mail Address: |
| Duck, Duck, Goose the Tuesday morning during their
board meeting in the upper room of the holy SLC temple, the week after a
grandpa profit is taken to reside with our heavenly father. |
Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org |