| Subject: | To long-time board participants (a little long) |
| Date: | May 21 14:45 2003 |
| Author: | jroskelley (see also #158 The Fastest Growing Church? which includes statistics) |
| I have only been reading and posting here since
around September of last year. I have learned more about the Mormon
church in that time than in my previous 38 years on this rock. One theme consistently runs through the posts here, and I have participated (and even started) in a few of them. It is the theme of "There are cracks in the foundation and before too long the Mormon church will crumble under its enormous fraudulent weight." Survivalists, it seems, survive, and for any number of reasons the Mormon church (and I suppose its members) have survived and continue to survive for at least the past 170 years or so. Will it be here in 1700 years? Who's to say? However, they are a tough and stubborn group and seem to always survive. They always seem able to adjust and maneuver their top leadership, and to adjust its current focus to precisely fit its needs. When growth was called for, genial, growth-oriented leaders like McKay and Kimball were in office and General Authorities like Paul H. Dunn were very popular and were bringing in members in droves. When fundamental shifts were required because the times were more liberal, leaders like Benson and Hinckley and hard-line General Authorities like Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks stepped up with iron fists to pound the members into submission and to slaughter the intellectuals. Through mormon church history, it seems, the right leadership has either been in or has been put into office (and this seems to be the continuing pattern). I give the full credit in this regard. If more American companies were run in this manner I would think our economy might not be in such bad shape today. What I would like to know from those of you that have been actively posting and reading here for many years is this: Has this been a common theme in all your time here? Has anything really changed at COB or within the Morg in all your time here that suggests to you that it really is crumbling? I see a lot of fresh faces posting the same things that are always posted here, and will probably always be posted here. I also realize that a handful of years is fairly insignificant. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor did it burn down in a day. How many of you long-timers thought early on that you were certain the Morg was crumbling and it would only be a matter of time, but now feel that it was naive to think so and that your new-found freedom was simply fueling a desire to see it crumble? Is the Morg falling apart? Is it really "up against it" as has been written here so many times (by myself included)? Are these same things going to be stated here year after year, decade after decade, saying things like "it's only a matter of time now" only to see the Morg press on and survive? Regards, John Roskelley |
| Subject: | My opinion.... |
| Date: | May 21 15:05 |
| Author: | Richard Garrard |
| The church will change...evolve, if you will. It has
before; it will continue to. The changes will lose some members--that is
inevitable. But there are too many lives and too much wealth invested in
this enterprise for it to just collapse or fade away. Look at the
horrendous doctrinal problems (related to failed prophecies) faced by
the Seventh Day Adventists and JWs--yet they continue. Over many generations, who knows? |
| Subject: | I don't know about crumbling, but certainly scrambling |
| Date: | May 22 00:04 2003 |
| Author: | kilgore |
| They're not hanging on to their converts (as
witnessed last year with almost 300,000 new members yet 5 fewer
stakes...D'OH!), and they're also losing previously staunch BICs at an
alarming rate, and they're even having a lot of trouble keeping youth
interested (so many go away to college...not BYU...and never go back to
church). The Morg has proven to be quite adaptable over the years, so I wouldn't discount its survival just yet. I doubt it will go away, but they're really scrambling trying to redefine themselves to stop the outflow of members. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. |
| Subject: | Evidence of the Morg crumbling..... |
| Date: | May 21 15:14 |
| Author: | Randy J. |
| IMO, the most glaring evidences of the Morg being on
the wane are: 1) The decrease in annual membership growth from about 5% to around 2% over the last few years 2) The announcement at last April's general conference that the church had a decrease of 5 total stakes from the previous year and 3) The recent statements from church leaders about "raising the standards" for prospective missionaries as well as potential converts. An example of that was GBH's speech a couple of months ago where he in so many words said that the days of massive numbers of converts was over. He cited a mission in Chile which fell from 900 baptisms in 2001 to only 90 in 2002 (citing from memory here.) That indicates that they recognize that the vast majority of converts are "stat baptisms," and they're making a conscious decision to cease that tactic. Of course, the outcome will be far fewer baptisms than in past years. But since most of the church's money and heritage comes from American members---and yet, America is where church growth is stagnant and many long-time members are leaving the faith---that is what will make the church eventually "crumble," if we want to use that word. It might take 10, 20, or 30 more years, but the LDS church will eventually experience a downturn. |
| Subject: | My take |
| Date: | May 21 15:15 |
| Author: | Julie |
| I have been around to see Recovery from Mormonism
from the beginning. I have posted under various names throughout these
years to try to keep one step ahead of my church leaders. The theme of
the end of the Morg has been pretty constant. I think realistically that
no end is in sight. The only theory about the future of Mormonism that has been posted here that to me seems plausible is Colonel Kane's implosion theory. The Mormon Church won't die, it will just retrench and fade away into irrelevance except for a few million diehards that continue to have babies. The missionary program will be less and less successful. It will become a church almost entirely found in the Intermountain West. The Intermountain West is the only place the Church is true anyway. Everywhere else the Church doesn't work well. The percentage of inactives is even high in the mission fields of the U.S. let alone the rest of the world. Joseph Smith's work will stagnate before it becomes this mighty stone that takes over the world. The Pentacostals are so much more fun than Mormons that Pentacostalism will eventually become the dominant Christian religious expression. Wouldn't you rather watch snakehandlers and faith healers than attend the local temple services? |
| Subject: | Thank you! Some thoughts... |
| Date: | May 21 19:28 |
| Author: | Colonel Thomas Kane |
| Julie wrote: > I have been around to see Recovery from Mormonism from the beginning. I have posted under various names throughout these years to try to keep one step ahead of my church leaders. The theme of the end of the Morg has been pretty constant. I think realistically that no end is in sight. The Colonel replies: Could not agree more. Julie wrote: > The only theory about the future of Mormonism that has been posted here that to me seems plausible is Coronel Kane's implosion theory. The Mormon Church won't die, it will just retrench and fade away into irrelevance except for a few million diehards that continue to have babies. The missionary program will be less and less successful. It will become a church almost entirely found in the Intermountain West. The Colonel replies: What other choice does it have? Hinckley is fully aware of the cultural foundations of Mormonism; last years Church sponsored, Church-wide "Trek of '47" Celebration from the Great and Spacious Conference Center, said it all. What is some convert in Matabeleland supposed to do, when they are told a "Pioneers Day Celebration" is being held at the ward? Julie wrote: > The Intermountain West is the only place the Church is true anyway. Everywhere else the Church doesn't work well. The percentage of inactives is even high in the mission fields of the U.S. let alone the rest of the world. The Colonel replies: Totally true, and COB is well aware of this. The problem is, keeping Ol' Granpa's dream (TEN MILLION MEMBERS BY 2000! ONE HUNDRED TEMPLES BY 2000!) alive provides gainful employment for many, at the expense of the truly sustainable, profitable Core of the organization, the Corridor Mormons. The fact that pie auctions are starting to come back says they've had enough of subsidizing GBH's illusions; "after the tithing come the toilets," as the "Every Member A Custodian" program told one and all how the Church really felt about them... How important has the money become? This is the equivalent of picking up the sofa cushions looking for loose change. And, GBH's recent opening comments at General Conference about how the Church will NOT go into debt over a commercial real estate venture, really raised a lot of eyebrows - like, just WHERE is the money going? That venture should have been funded out of the equivalent of pocket change; debt should never have been an issue, much less so much of an issue as to be mentioned in the opening speech of General Conference. Julie wrote: > Joseph Smith's work will stagnate before it becomes this mighty stone that takes over the world. The Pentacostals are so much more fun than Mormons that Pentacostalism will eventually become the dominant Christian religious expression. Wouldn't you rather watch snakehandlers and faith healers than attend the local temple services? The Colonel replies: The entire temple rituals have GOT TO GO. Outside the Corridor, only people over 60 go to them with the most remote semblance of willingness. "Let us go down!" ought to be changed to "Let us wake up!" Best wishes. |
| Subject: | Gazing into my crystal ball |
| Date: | May 21 15:37 |
| Author: | Mateo |
| I honestly think that the church will NEVER
completely vanish. The church will continue to change doctrines/policies
to keep bringing people in. I honestly see it turning into an RLDS-type
church before it completely dies off. Some future leader could recognize
the need to be recognized by mainstream christianity and change policies
to make sure that this happens. Remember, MANY false religions are still around, regardless of how silly they seem. Look at Heavens Gate, who peeked over 1000 members. They still had enough in the end. There are still faithful followers to David Koresh in Waco, TX. The Strangites still have a congregation, and they are just as old as LDS Inc (not nearly as big, though). Zoroastrianism has been around for a VERY long time, and while it is small now, it still survives. It seems that the only thing that can make a religion prosper is not missionary work, but political domination and geographical isolation. The mormons have a decent hold on political domination, and are slowly loosing the geographical isolation. Fortunately for them, most of the members in Utah stay in Utah (The mormon Mecca). This is just like people expecting everyone to leave the church when the blacks received the priesthood. Sure, some of the racists left, but the others did what they were always taught to do since primary; follow the prophet. My crystal ball tells me that they will follow the prophet forever, whether they become mainstream Xians, or just another obscure religion in Utah. mateo |
| Subject: | Well, I have to agree. |
| Date: | May 21 15:46 |
| Author: | Pen |
| Consider that a certain small cult that started in
Jerusalem approximately 2000 years ago is still going and thriving. It
has changed repeatedly, has broken into many sub-churches, and has
affected mankind very heavily. If Christianity could survive this long, chances are the Morg can too. Of course, it will continue to evolve to fit society more and more, but it probably will continue to survive longer than I will. |
| Subject: | Essential to Christianity's success... |
| Date: | May 21 16:08 |
| Author: | Richard Garrard |
| ...was their penetration of the Roman Empire and
exploiting its imperial occupation of Europe. The LDS church would need
to do something similar--which would involve a greater degree of
infiltration of the U.S. government than they currently have. Not impossible, though. |
| Subject: | Decay |
| Date: | May 21 15:47 |
| Author: | Ryan |
| I don't think anyone was suggesting that the church
will disappear off the face of the earth. When most people say things
like, "It's a matter of time before the church crumbles." I
think they mean several things: 1)The church will never reach the grandiose projections leaders said it would. 2)It will essentially quit growing. 3)Because it has quit growing, as members die off, most of the membership will disappear. So, I think that church is beginning to crumble, and by that I mean the above is starting to happen. I believe in 20 years Mormonism will be almost non-existent (as far as actual, practicing Mormons – not just names on membership roles) outside Utah and surrounding areas. Further, by that time, the LDS church will no longer control Salt Lake City the way they do now. Having control of a major city is a big political tool. Already, SLC is 55% non-Mormon. They’ll lose this tool pretty soon. Yes, the church has been a very adaptive organization. The reason for this is that leaders consciously run it as a business. But, the gap between the mindset of the old and the mindset of the young is widening. Old people (who remain stuck in their ways) are living longer, and young people are exposed to so much more mass communication. No matter how adaptive the organization has been, it is still run by a bunch of crotchety old men. They can’t relate to the new generations of kids, and even if they could, the ideas will be so heretical (like accepting homosexuality) that the will hesitate greatly in implementing them. In nature, there are two great laws; growth and decay. |
| Subject: | Basically agree |
| Date: | May 21 17:12 |
| Author: | Zapotec |
| Mormonism will never completely disappear. It's just
one of a number of religions that fit some people quite well. However,
in my opinion, its days of significant growth are over. It will never be
a major world religion, no matter how much they cook the books. As others have said, it is too entrenched in the Intermountain West to disappear completely. But, outside of that area its growth will be marginal. |
| Subject: | In my lifetime, no it won't crumble |
| Date: | May 21 17:23 |
| Author: | tri girl |
| I say this because my TBM sister has 6 children whom
she is heavily indoctrinating while living in Utah at the same time.
Some of them probably won't stay in the church but some surely will and
they are bound to have a litter of kids, some of which will stay in the
church. The oldest is 13, the youngest 1 year and they are part of an
extended family that includes 25 or so young cousins (ages 17 to 1) who
are being raised in TBM homes. Now the doctrine might be slanted this
way or that, depending on who is in the upper ranks, but the culture and
traditions will endure simply because these children know nothing else. One only has to look at how many times the Jews have nearly been anhilated to see how culture and traditions, more so than the actual doctrine, survive. For more info on Jewish survival, take a look at PBS.org and search for Heritage: The Kingdom of David. BTW- I saw that your uncle and cousin made the summit of Everest- wow! Let's hope that Chomolungma grants them a safe return! |
| Subject: | I've been here several years. |
| Date: | May 21 17:24 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| Yes, the topics repeat over and over. Sometimes
there is a new twist, and often the church provides new fodder that
reveals exactly how the organization works. New people continue to come to this BB and receive support and information from people who have already hashed over hundreds of subjects here. Old people stay to help and enjoy like minds. But, nothing really changes over time in the church. Sure, the church will morph to avoid becoming obsolete. No matter how big the cracks are, the Mormons will find a way to jump over them. All the church history that doesn't serve the church's purpose to survive will eventually go down Orwell's Memory Hole as far as the members are concerned. Remember, a sucker is born every minute, and the LDS people have a higher than average birth rate. The church will be there filling a niche for people who don't think, are suckers, are fearful, are hopeful about magic feelings, or simply want a McLife all planned out. The scientific literacy of the general population is minuscule and religion will continue to provide alternative magical thinking, social norms and mores, and cultural adhesiveness. Most people do not want to pay attention to the man behind the curtain and will bleat with approval of the emperor's wardrobe. The bottom line is that humans don't want to die. The LDS church provides the whimsy that members have all eternity to be breeding, wielding power and enjoying loved ones. People will pay dearly to hope. |
| Subject: | Its greatest growth... |
| Date: | May 21 17:45 |
| Author: | Jeeves |
| Its greatest growth has been outside the US, in
mostly poor, non-English speaking countries. But they've reached saturation now. There are fewer and fewer places for them to expand into, and the Morg needs to continually expand due to its high turnover rate. With less and less converts coming in, even as the Morg puts more and more missionaries into the field, you're going to see new convert numbers hit a wall. Too many people will have "been there, done that" and know enough to inform their neighbors, or read about Morg problems on the internet. And the internet is making a major dent where it hurts the most--in the USA. The Morg power base is here, and the small leak of exmos has been steadily turning into a river. Word of mouth is much more effective than missionaries. The more exmos, the harder the Morg will have to work for converts. Finally, the Morg is stuck with its most controversial doctrines, unable to change too much in fear of creating a split in the church between the fundie TBM's and the liberal TBM's. Any changes now become headline news. The Information Age has limited the Morg's ability to change with the times. It has become more rigid, paranoid of criticism and constrictive to the point where it is making more enemies than friends inside and outside the church. Let me put it this way...it takes a Hinckley, probably their best PR man to date, to barely hold the leaky ship together as is. After he's gone, can Monson or Packer do what he did? Not likely. The Morg is imploding. The proof is in their attempts to grab more power and control. Little do they realize it will only hasten their fall. Regards~ |
| Subject: | The mormon church will persist as long as irrationality does... |
| Date: | May 21 18:49 |
| Author: | DeafGuy |
| Mormonism's share of the irrationality market might wax and wane, but so long as humanity remains stuck on magical thinking, mormonism will live on along with the plethora of other religious beliefs. |
| Subject: | to bastardize a phrase... |
| Date: | May 21 19:06 |
| Author: | Heathen |
| Nuts and Fruits don't fall far from the tree. As long as the TBM faithful are breeding like lemmings there will always be more to take their place. As an earlier poster stated, immortality is a powerful motivator. I think we will see the growth basically stop, but the Mormon Church is not going to go away. |
| Subject: | That explains the name! btw, I think PEOPLE are changing |
| Date: | May 21 22:21 |
| Author: | justme |
| I don't know how badly or quickly the morg will crumble but I have noticed a difference with each generation of kids. Kids in high school and college today are taught to think for themselves and ask questions. They are not just blindly obedient to authority and adults. They are not afraid to challenge their parents beliefs and old ways of doing things. I think it's the younger generation that the church needs to be afraid of. I think they already know that too. Even if the church doesn't change much or even if it does try to change, they can't stop the fact that people are changing and being exposed to more ideas (at least they are outside the mormon corridor). |
| Subject: | The Church is increasingly out of step with everyone else. |
| Date: | May 21 20:05 |
| Author: | Dude |
| Perhaps, as you note, Mormon leaders have changed
the Church as needed to keep the Church attractive to converts. But they
generally change too little, too late (polygamy, blacks and the
priesthood), and now the Church's ability to change is even more muted. Organizationally, the Church has become sclerotic or ossified--it has lost some of its flexibility or ability to change, as one would expect from a larger and now much more bureaucratic church. More to the point, what change I do see by the leadership is going in the wrong direction, either digging in their heels (BoM historicity) or moving in the wrong direction (anti-gay rather than becoming more tolerant, like everyone else). It is important to distinguish between things that repel potential converts, and things which cause existing members to be turned off (stop paying tithing and turn down callings) or simply to exit the Church, although some of the same factors do apply to both. A quick and dirty list of things that are different now than even 10 or 20 years ago is: 1. Internet provides quick access to lots of info on Mormon history and doctrine not readily available even ten years ago. 2. Investigators now know more about the Church (or can learn it in one hour) than do the missionaries. All the dirt the Church is good at hiding. 3. The Murphy affair showed the Church is now too big to fly below the media radar. It has lost the ability to be arbitrary and unfair with its intellectuals, something it had a free hand to do only ten years ago. 4. Few informed people now take the BoM seriously, even within the Church. Know anyone who takes a "Three Nephites" story seriously? 5. Temple rituals are now in the public domain--anyone can see the whole thing at any of a dozen websites. Not secret, not sacred. 6. Centralized, correlated, dumbed-down Church is losing the interest of many members. Just too boring, too rote. It's like what a federal agency would design for a church should the task ever be assigned. 7. Anti-gay politicking will alienate everyone but Christian fundies and Mormon bigots (half the Church). There are other points. I think the Church has turned a corner and is now going down the "Wrong Way" path, urged on by the ultra-fundies in leadership. |
| Subject: | "We are a peculiar people." When's the last time you heard that one? |
| Date: | May 21 22:53 |
| Author: | Verdacht |
| Has the Church is lost its peculiar feel? Mainstreaming may not be the way to go. I think many converts who become dedicated members are attracted by the Church's unique and unusual doctrines. |
| Subject: | Thoughts from a new NOM/exmo |
| Date: | May 22 00:04 |
| Author: | CP |
| found this site and the stories confirmed what I was
thinking.. I was a TBM working my butt off for the church... One day I
wondered about caffeine.. Was it against the WOW or not.. Next thing you
know I was reading the BOA controversy and 6 months later I sprung it on
my husband.. We are both “inactive” now.. and wouldn’t you know
they are pulling the same stupid stunts to get us back as we tried when
we were in leadership positions.. I mean they are so incredibly stupid.
I am actually disgusted with their incompetence to create meaningful
growth and fulfillment through religious worship. I think the problem with planning the demise of the church is the power it wields in government.. The church would never have survived if it could not hide behind BYU and the UT state government.. It also has members in the FBI and several key positions of government.. That is its strength.. They also have the money to buy the media. Image has helped them a lot. I think it is working.. My collogues and associates all see the church in a positive light. I see very little backlash towards Mormons anymore.. as for my associates becoming Mormons well that is a whole different story. They may not think they are weird but they certainly don’t envy them like Hinckley would make us believe.. The thing is the church wants WEALTHY members.. They want educated members.. hell they really don’t care if you are educated just make sure you convert and raise your kids in the church so they become educated and indoctrinated.. BUT and this is a big BUT.. there are only so many people who want religion.. There are only so many suckers. Those suckers usually are not educated.. I mean just try to tell the golden plates story to one of your associates at work.. This is the churches Achilles heal. They have to be proud of a ridiculous story with no archeology. In that I think they are fighting a losing battle. Then there is the creepy temple which is a whole huge can of worms. Can you see your boss at the temple? I mean it? The only people that buy into it are BIC.. I know of few convert upper class educated male or female converts that LOVE the temple.. Hell all the converts in our ward were single people just looking for some friends. The other thing is the church is cheaping out on activities.. Converts join for the social club.. What they find is a clique ridden social structure with few deep friendships.. For all of its vast recourses the church is ridiculous with its product.. IT has a beautiful portfolio and a very shitty product.. Think about it .. if you get promoted you just get more work.. The more faithful you are the more miserable you become.. It just doesn’t jive for working professionals.. To be honest I think what is killing the church is a lack of urgency.. Within the MO corridor, members are convinced that the mission field is growing at an astronomical rate.. Misconceptions abound because the UT media plays the church like this immanent religion spreading across the earth.. The return missionaries are just happy to be home and play the game and so the myth survives.. The parents don’t want to know that the son baptized shaky converts.. If they knew they would be convinced that it was a personal worthiness issue. The double bind works both ways and it is the bind that will eventually strangle the church.. The church has lied so long about its growth that the members have an inflated notion of its success.. They are complacent and frankly they are fat and happy.. In my ward if people left the church they were shunned.. The members were convinced that the inactives were just rebellious and not worthy.. I know numerous Nazi TBMs proudly proclaim that they came to church for their own testimony and not because of friendships with the members.. Its like they are rearranging chairs on the titanic.. they have blamed the members so much that they are ambivalent.. There have been to many faith promoting stories and no real strategizing of how to keep people coming to church.. Largely because this is a church of “what can you do for us” not the missionary message of “what can we do for you” To be honest in leaving the church I was shocked at how bad they really suck at getting members.. I mean the SDA and the JW bring in way more suckers with far less tithing money.. come on the church is just made of geriatric depends wearing yes men who have everyone around them kissing their asses.. I mean I just am blown away at how bad the numbers are doctored and how little money they were giving our bishop to run the church.. We would sit in RS leadership meeting and the ideas would be ridiculous.. They truly have no clue on why people go to church.. Then I was made a ward missionary.. Even bigger joke.. They have NO CLUE what the hell people need in a religion.. It is all about manipulating the member to get what they want.. Thus the question isn’t how many people will formally resign.. The question is how many people just become inactive and raise their kids outside the church.. That’s where the hemorrhaging is occurring.. not in non believers just in believers who aren’t getting anything out of going to church. I mean every Sunday has turned into a guilt feast.. People just don’t bother anymore. They are Mormons the way Catholics are members...They show up for baby’s blessings and that’s it. The church has two choices.. Become a fanatical religion like the JW’s or go mainstream and be like everyone else. Of course there biggest strength is people have not studied them all that well.. The more mainstream they become the more they are going to have to crack open the closet and show what’s inside.. And we all know how successful that is at getting people to join. Basically they need to stay obscure enough to avoid academic study and inquiry by scholars and media.. but open enough to pick off Christians from other denominations... Gosh since no one ever listened to my lowly female opinions in the church maybe now I can tell you all what I TRIED to tell the bishop and stake president as a believer.. They just told me to bow my head and say yes so here I am.. There is no innovation in the church anymore.. I mean it.. The leadership meetings have turned into recitations from the CHI.. Everything is bland.. There is absolutely no willingness by individual members to speak up because the stake presidents have tightened their grip so tight.. The church is withering from the inside out. Each ward is about as fun as a cardboard Big Mac.. We have moved quite a bit the last 5 years and it has been the same in every ward ( we are in AZ) And yes there is trouble in paradise. We are closet NOMs just barely turned inactive. I tell you the church is getting desperate. The members are feeling the clinch.. Because I am in the NOM closet, my family in UT feel comfortable in complaining about the church and BOY ARE THEY COMPLAINING.. They all were very unhappy about the farewells being canceled but resigned themselves to "the brethren know best" My MIL was sad about how they took all the little stories out of the VT messages in the ensign.. Now they are just quotes from the prophets and scriptures. My own mother feels like they are just trying to punish the members. She actually said “It’s like they are little kids punishing us. Well that doesn’t work....... Eventually kids rebel when you do that.”. She went to the baptism of my nephew and she was appalled that there was not even a program.. Nothing.. She even claimed that their wasn’t a prayer or a song.. She was appalled that it was so sterilized.. She could not believe that they did nothing to make these children’s baptism day special. Then she was also saying how it really made it less spiritual to be like that. In our stake the SP actually wanted to put a limit on how many people could stand in a circle at the baby blessing.. I mean they are pulling in the reigns.. I don’t think this is limited.. I think this is church wide.. In the meantime the faithful TBMs ( my family included) resign themselves to the new way things are ran, but can you imagine how miserable it is for them? What kind of memories are they giving the children of church? My dad says that in their ward the inactivity is down around 40% ( he lives in Salem UT for crying out loud) I think members are just getting worn out and staying home.. Church is just a big YAWN and the parties are a joke... Anyway that is my two cents about where the church is heading... It can’t even keep its core audience happy. The other post is correct. Can you imagine the NINTENDO generation sitting through the temple movie? I mean they have been raising their whole lives with high expectations and then THAT? The other post was correct. The X generation and the generation after that are very bright. They have the power and they will use it. They have been fed with sitcoms of stupid parents and have a whole lot less respect for authority figures. All this raising the bar mantra is going to do is convince boys to play around a bit and get in trouble and use that as an excuse not to go.. And the YW program is certainly not resonating. I think the hemorrhage is going to happen from a lot of YW outside of UT and maybe even within. The church is already fragmented. There is no longer one core group of Mormons. There are a lot of liberal mormons now and a whole lot of NOMs and sunstone Mormons.. Hell they even have to deal with democrats in their mists .. They just have no idea how to unite all these people under a common belief. They are holding on to the temple for dear life.. That is why I just laugh with gleeful delight because I feel that is the worst let down of the church. Who wants to go sit through a movie and wear weird clothes? My generation could care less about saving dead people. All our relatives work has been done. The church is useless form top to bottom and sadly with all that money I gave them I would have expected a better show for it. What a let down that they can’t even brainwash enough people to keep the church growing. Can anyone say KMART, SEARS, ENRON ( good god .. these big companies are all alike) |
| Subject: | Great thoughts; some questions, some ideas... |
| Date: | May 22 01:15 |
| Author: | Colonel Thomas Kane |
| CP wrote: > found this site and the stories confirmed what I was thinking.. I was a TBM working my butt off for the church... One day I wondered about caffeine.. Was it against the WOW or not.. Next thing you know I was reading the BOA controversy and 6 months later I sprung it on my husband.. We are both “inactive” now.. and wouldn’t you know they are pulling the same stupid stunts to get us back as we tried when we were in leadership positions.. I mean they are so incredibly stupid. I am actually disgusted with their incompetence to create meaningful growth and fulfillment through religious worship. The Colonel replies: It's true, it's like the whole thing is becoming a hollow formality, even to many under 60 in the Corridor. CP wrote: > I think the problem with planning the demise of the church is the power it wields in government.. The church would never have survived if it could not hide behind BYU and the UT state government.. It also has members in the FBI and several key positions of government.. That is its strength.. They also have the money to buy the media. Image has helped them a lot. I think it is working.. My collogues and associates all see the church in a positive light. I see very little backlash towards Mormons anymore.. as for my associates becoming Mormons well that is a whole different story. They may not think they are weird but they certainly don’t envy them like Hinckley would make us believe.. The Colonel replies: True, the "peculiar people" are much less peculiar these days. CP wrote: > The thing is the church wants WEALTHY members.. They want educated members.. hell they really don’t care if you are educated just make sure you convert and raise your kids in the church so they become educated and indoctrinated.. BUT and this is a big BUT.. there are only so many people who want religion.. There are only so many suckers. Those suckers usually are not educated.. I mean just try to tell the golden plates story to one of your associates at work.. This is the churches Achilles heal. They have to be proud of a ridiculous story with no archeology. In that I think they are fighting a losing battle. Then there is the creepy temple which is a whole huge can of worms. Can you see your boss at the temple? I mean it? The only people that buy into it are BIC.. I know of few convert upper class educated male or female converts that LOVE the temple.. Hell all the converts in our ward were single people just looking for some friends. The Colonel replies: That's why, when they finally take the checkbook away from Ol' Granpa, Monson and Packer will no longer pretend to recruit; the tracting mishies will be solely for PR, in the right neighborhoods. CP wrote: > The other thing is the church is cheaping out on activities.. Converts join for the social club.. What they find is a clique ridden social structure with few deep friendships.. For all of its vast recourses the church is ridiculous with its product.. IT has a beautiful portfolio and a very shitty product.. Think about it .. if you get promoted you just get more work.. The more faithful you are the more miserable you become.. It just doesn’t jive for working professionals.. The Colonel replies: Totally true; it's ALL clique! And the "social events" are so hollow, so sterile; no more Roadshows! CP wrote: > To be honest I think what is killing the church is a lack of urgency.. Within the MO corridor, members are convinced that the mission field is growing at an astronomical rate.. Misconceptions abound because the UT media plays the church like this immanent religion spreading across the earth.. The return missionaries are just happy to be home and play the game and so the myth survives.. The parents don’t want to know that the son baptized shaky converts.. If they knew they would be convinced that it was a personal worthiness issue. The double bind works both ways and it is the bind that will eventually strangle the church.. The Colonel replies: The Church has never given a damn about converts, unless they needed them (say, under Smith and Young), or had serious professional credentials, or lots of money. CP wrote: > The church has lied so long about its growth that the members have an inflated notion of its success.. They are complacent and frankly they are fat and happy.. In my ward if people left the church they were shunned.. The members were convinced that the inactives were just rebellious and not worthy.. I know numerous Nazi TBMs proudly proclaim that they came to church for their own testimony and not because of friendships with the members.. Its like they are rearranging chairs on the titanic.. they have blamed the members so much that they are ambivalent.. There have been to many faith promoting stories and no real strategizing of how to keep people coming to church.. Largely because this is a church of “what can you do for us” not the missionary message of “what can we do for you” The Colonel replies: COB is not worried about people coming to Church, except the "right" people - Corridor Mormons. Everyone knows the Church recruitment efforts in the Second and Third World are a fiasco, but nobody had the courage to tell Ol' Grandpa the truth. Everyone went along with the comfortable lie - and a small empire was created in the Church for ministering to the needs of the Church, and its members, in far-away places. That's going away, too, just as soon as they take the checkbook away from Ol' Grandpa. CP wrote: > To be honest in leaving the church I was shocked at how bad they really suck at getting members.. I mean the SDA and the JW bring in way more suckers with far less tithing money.. come on the church is just made of geriatric depends wearing yes men who have everyone around them kissing their asses.. I mean I just am blown away at how bad the numbers are doctored and how little money they were giving our bishop to run the church.. We would sit in RS leadership meeting and the ideas would be ridiculous.. They truly have no clue on why people go to church.. Then I was made a ward missionary.. Even bigger joke.. They have NO CLUE what the hell people need in a religion.. It is all about manipulating the member to get what they want.. Thus the question isn’t how many people will formally resign.. The question is how many people just become inactive and raise their kids outside the church.. That’s where the hemorrhaging is occurring.. not in non believers just in believers who aren’t getting anything out of going to church. I mean every Sunday has turned into a guilt feast.. People just don’t bother anymore. They are Mormons the way Catholics are members...They show up for baby’s blessings and that’s it. The Colonel replies: Exactly. More and more, the Church membership resembles its leadership, a Wasatch gerontocracy. CP wrote: > The church has two choices.. Become a fanatical religion like the JW’s or go mainstream and be like everyone else. Of course there biggest strength is people have not studied them all that well.. The more mainstream they become the more they are going to have to crack open the closet and show what’s inside.. And we all know how successful that is at getting people to join. Basically they need to stay obscure enough to avoid academic study and inquiry by scholars and media.. but open enough to pick off Christians from other denominations... The Colonel replies: HINT - fanatical regional religion. There are more and more references in Confernence to the importance of the BoM, PoGP, and BoA; even BYU InternetTV is running updated BoM/PoGP pieces, and these doctrinal hard-liners are not flinching from finding the most profound and subtle wisdom in the Joseph Smith Translation. It REALLY is, "WE have the Restored Gospel; the rest of you are wrong." CP wrote: > Gosh since no one ever listened to my lowly female opinions in the church maybe now I can tell you all what I TRIED to tell the bishop and stake president as a believer.. They just told me to bow my head and say yes so here I am.. There is no innovation in the church anymore.. I mean it.. The leadership meetings have turned into recitations from the CHI.. Everything is bland.. There is absolutely no willingness by individual members to speak up because the stake presidents have tightened their grip so tight.. The church is withering from the inside out. Each ward is about as fun as a cardboard Big Mac.. We have moved quite a bit the last 5 years and it has been the same in every ward ( we are in AZ) The Colonel replies: This is very true; internally, they are retreating to their Core, in both membership, and beliefs. CP wrote: > And yes there is trouble in paradise. We are closet NOMs just barely turned inactive. I tell you the church is getting desperate. The members are feeling the clinch.. Because I am in the NOM closet, my family in UT feel comfortable in complaining about the church and BOY ARE THEY COMPLAINING.. They all were very unhappy about the farewells being canceled but resigned themselves to "the brethren know best" The Colonel replies: Apparently, that cut a lot deeper than many outside The Corridor realize; to be told, out of the blue, that the little affairs to say "Congratulations" and "Good-Bye" to your flesh and blood, who are giving two years of their life to the Church, is too inconvenient for the leadership. And, by the way, don't go cluttering up the airport in Salt Lake with your "Welcome Home" meetings, either! Talk about putting the cart before the horse! CP wrote: >My MIL was sad about how they took all the little stories out of the VT messages in the ensign.. Now they are just quotes from the prophets and scriptures. My own mother feels like they are just trying to punish the members. She actually said “It’s like they are little kids punishing us. Well that doesn’t work....... Eventually kids rebel when you do that.”. The Colonel replies: This might have worked in the social control system of the Corridor before modern communications, particularly the Internet. And, isn't that a GREAT analogy that says how they see the members! CP wrote: >She went to the baptism of my nephew and she was appalled that there was not even a program.. Nothing.. She even claimed that their wasn’t a prayer or a song.. She was appalled that it was so sterilized.. She could not believe that they did nothing to make these children’s baptism day special. Then she was also saying how it really made it less spiritual to be like that. In our stake the SP actually wanted to put a limit on how many people could stand in a circle at the baby blessing.. I mean they are pulling in the reigns.. I don’t think this is limited.. I think this is church wide.. The Colonel replies: It's like they are confusing overcontrol, of a declining business, with modern management. CP wrote: > In the meantime the faithful TBMs ( my family included) resign themselves to the new way things are ran, but can you imagine how miserable it is for them? What kind of memories are they giving the children of church? My dad says that in their ward the inactivity is down around 40% ( he lives in Salem UT for crying out loud) I think members are just getting worn out and staying home.. Church is just a big YAWN and the parties are a joke... The Colonel replies: "Resign(ation)" is a pretty passive state; guess the mules just stop, when you keep whipping them... CP wrote: >And the YW program is certainly not resonating. I think the hemorrhage is going to happen from a lot of YW outside of UT and maybe even within. The Colonel replies: This is from the High Command bitching at the last General Conference about the YW crowd looking at RS and saying, "The hell with this." Look at the last RS Conference; few members under 50, none under 40, and all dressed as casually as they thought the Conference deserved, as a quiet sign of disrespect. CP wrote: >The church is already fragmented. There is no longer one core group of Mormons. There are a lot of liberal mormons now and a whole lot of NOMs and sunstone Mormons.. The Colonel replies: As we have said, GBH's 100 temples and 12,000,000 members will be seen as a Hollow Legacy; Ol' Grandpa's big investments that failed to pay dividends, and damn near bankrupted the family. Best wishes. |
| Subject: | Yes and No... |
| Date: | May 22 02:29 |
| Author: | johanna |
| Reasons for Yes: The mainstreaming of the church. More Christ-centered. Not a peculiar people anymore. I felt very awkward as a TBM when Hinckley denied "truths" of the potential Godhood of man. The conversion rate is going down as is the number of children "acceptable" to "normal" Mormons. I see more and more families here in Utah County getting vacectomies or limiting the number of children. Although I see 5&6 children families here, they are usually my age or older. Younger couples having 4 kids or less is normal so that growth is going down. The internet is a valuable tool to offering information to people that was not available without digging into the unmentionables of the Church. I think that there will be less and less people willing to leave their religion of birth to join Mormonism. They will stay with traditional family ways. I also see economic times hitting the Church where it counts. It will be harder and harder for folks to pay a full-tithe. REASONS FOR NO: I think that the church will remain in one form or another. We may not recognize it in 10 or 20 years. Joseph Smith & the Book of Mormon will take a back seat to King James. Christ will be the center of instruction. Meetings will go to 1.5 hours on Sunday. Temples will gradually open to whole families on special occasions, perhaps weddings in the chapels (perhaps even rented out?...too "money changing" to happen? They've got to pay for the upkeep somehow!) The temple ceremony will be eliminated "by revelation" It will be said that we no longer need the Mosaic-law type ceremony. That we can live a higher Melchezidiek law and only have the sealing ceremony and not the endowment ceremony. The church will abandon the Boy Scout program and probably the missionary program. They will send out young people for Humanitarian "Peace Corp" type missions. They won't be so sexually hung up because they actually hope that LDS young people will get pregnant and get married to each other. Oh, well. I keep thinking that religion in general will crumble. I think that is the only hope for world peace. I like the ceremony & community of religion, but that can be accomplished through other means without expectation of believing in an omnipotent being as it's criteria. Will the church crumble before our eyes? NO. Will it morph out of existance? YES. Johanna *************** |
| Subject: | A few thoughts |
| Date: | May 22 13:43 |
| Author: | Elwood |
| I guess I qualify as a long-time participant, so
here is my two cents worth (and I recognize that there may be some
internal inconsistency in these thoughts): I think Dagny hit the over-all human psychology picture right on. People want something to believe in, and Moism gives them an afterlife story that makes them feel good. Some of the letters Steve Benson has posted lately go along with that - people saying basically 'where are you going to go that promises you anything better, or even the same as Moism.' People will buy into it because they want to believe in the dream future. On the downside for Moism: there is no doubt that Mo central is currently experiencing serious problems. My guess is that "the brethren" would have done just about anything to avoid announcing a decline in number of stakes at conference, and also to avoid publicly announcing significant personnel cutbacks at COB 9 months or so ago, but they couldn't get around those problems. Whether the problems continue will be interesting to see. One response to the financial problems I think we will see is the near complete financial isolation of each area of the church. If, say, Chile or the Philippines, to name a couple of areas getting particular attention by Mo central, can't financially support itself, then changes will have to be made in those areas. There won't be any subsidies from other areas anymore. Mo central will tell them to sink or swim on their own. Along those lines, I could also see Mo central placing more public emphasis on how the statistics it releases are broken down by area. That way they can tell the members in North America that all is well, appeasing those in their major financial base(maybe), and blame any problems on those less valiant foreigners. And at the same time they could heap lots of guilt on those weak foreigners for not pulling their weight. Seems like something Mo central would do. I don't completely buy into Colonel Kanes implosion theory, but the general idea does have merit. My family are some of those solid, corridor Mos. They are multi-generational Mos connected to the hierarchy. And I don't think people like my family will ever leave Moism. They were born Mos and they will die Mos, come hell or Boyd Packer (is that redundant?). Mo central could reinvent Moism into something barely recognizable to todays Mos, and they would merrily go along for the ride. And I think that is a very likely possibility. |
| Subject: | It's gonna die. |
| Date: | May 22 14:33 |
| Author: | Fly |
| The Church is adaptable. The leadership does change policy to meet new times. But the internet is changing the world quickly, and the Church won't keep up. |
| Subject: | They will keep the old members |
| Date: | May 22 15:01 |
| Author: | CP |
| But each generation is going to get smaller and
smaller.. I don't know about elwoods family but most famiilies of people
on this board can name more inactives than actives. I think if you don't
grow up in the church indoctrinated to pay tithing and take EVERY
calling it becomes easier as an adult to stay home.. There are a ton of
jackmormons... even in the UT corridor.. Why do you think they made BYU-ID 4 year.. They are losing the younger generation..BYU indoctrination is essential.. Also guess what? My MIL says that they are giving major incentives to get UT mormons to go to BYU-Hawaii? Interesting to say the least. |
| Subject: | I'm not really a long time poster, but I do have an opinion on this... |
| Date: | May 22 16:02 |
| Author: | busyguy |
| I think the membership is going to get smaller and smaller over time. I doubt it will totally disappear though, unfortunately. Maybe like others have said, with the information available on the internet people will start to see that church for what it is. On the other hand, I know my mormon ex-gf dismissed any internet information against that church as being a fabricated lie. With the amount of conditioning that church does to its members, I think it's going to take something pretty big to totally dismantle it anytime soon. |
| Subject: | It's the "Triage" that will make the difference if the church survives |
| Date: | May 22 16:31 |
| Author: | Stinger |
| In marketing and political campaigns you divide
people into three groups: 1) Those who are with you no matter what. 3) Those who are against you no matter what. 2) The swing group. I put the middle group (2)last because they are always the ones to target and usually the ones who make a difference. The extremes are the ones you are wasting your time on. The swing group are possible converts and questioning active Mormons. This is the group most vulnerable to the Internet. It use to be that investigators would check the encyclopedia, friends or co-workers before or during their lessons with the missionaries, now many go to the Internet and find sites like this one -- Big Difference. Questioning actives had few resources in the past that were as readily available as the Internet. Now they get swamped with extraordinary information, i.e. Lighthouse Ministry. The swing group usually carries history with it. I don't think the church's sites can stand up to the material they're facing. That's why they've tried so hard to hide it in the past. They use to grow because the oppositiion was so unorganized and hard to find. No more. |
| Subject: | Sorry, but I think the morg will survive for a long, long time. |
| Date: | May 22 17:29 |
| Author: | Dan |
| Lets face it, there are a number of main stream
religions on this planet that are just as irrational as the morg, but
with perhaps greater negative influences over their membership and those
viewed as enemies. Yet they survive and prosper. The morg will likely change, perhaps decline by some standard measurements. But, it will be here for a long, long time. Because its members want it to be true, for them it is. |
Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org |