| Subject: | How did you mission experience affect your future apostasy? |
| Date: | Apr 14 11:11 2003 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| It took 12 years but I finally understood what I heard from
countless Danes: "That may be true for you, that is just not true for me" Plus Denmark is a LOW baptizing mission. Do you think that missionaries who experienced "Success" (baptisms) are more likely to stay strong in the church? |
| Subject: | Re: How did you mission experience affect your future apostasy? |
| Date: | Apr 14 11:31 |
| Author: | KJA |
| My mission was considered "successful" by the standard of
how many baptisms I scored... and I think that was a very, very large part of my decision
not to stay involved with the church. Between the freaky temple experience and the
"sales" environment of the mission (and a pretty demonic mission president), I
became very disillusioned with the church, and found the church to be a very different
organization than I naively thought it to be. Upon my return to BYU, I was called as EQP in my campus branch, but "resigned" the position after the first semester. I told my Bish that this disillusionment was the primary factor in requesting a release from this position. He was very kind, but didn't understand my POV on this. (BTW, my family had been in the church for over 17 years by the time I went on my mission, and we were active for 10 years before my mission, if that is of any consideration.) |
| Subject: | "Success" often back-fires |
| Date: | Apr 14 11:43 |
| Author: | Romans house go |
| In Argentina, where virtually nobody in the middle class will take
the discussions, baptizing the emotionally and physically needy people showed me rather
quickly that we were just preying upon their needs. We called them humble and elect
because they more readily accepted our baptismal challenges. Upon visiting the inactives
on the branch rosters, we often heard the same "conversion" stories about
handsome norteamericanos and Joseph Smith. Most of these had stopped attending church when
the handsome missionaries were either transferred or stopped rounding them up on Sundays. After my mission I learned just what many of us had become when I signed on(along with some mission buddies) with some hard-sell pyramid scheme that was organized like a mission. We went door-to-door, impersonating and misrepresenting public utilities workers, telling immigrants that they had to sign up for our energy-saving program. |
| Subject: | "virtually nobody in the middle class will take the discussions" |
| Date: | Apr 14 12:06 |
| Author: | tanstaafl |
| I'm so sorry, RHG, I must have taught the charlas to the last of the
gullible middle class argentinos before you got there. ;-) Ohh and now my mouth is
watering thinking about empanadas and asados and milanesa sandwiches and noquis and
facturas and . . . . . ;-) But answering SI's question, I think the mission facilitated my apostacy in 2 major ways. One, I am a compulsive reader and had nothing but church books to read on my mision. Reading the bible and the BoM over and over, I just couldn't help but notice all the flaws. And two, a first hand demonstration at the local, mision presidency, and GA level, that the church was not being run by god. |
| Subject: | Exactly!! Isn't it amazing... |
| Date: | Apr 14 21:24 |
| Author: | CubicalGoatBoy |
| That your mission gives you tremendous amounts of time to study the
church that you have up until now been mostly just talking about!! My experience mirrored yours: I had plenty of time to read up on the scriptures, and books such as "the Miracle of Forgiveness." That, in combination with working closely with the Mission and Area presidency, showed me a different side of the church. Nothing controversial, just the realization that the Church was run like a business, and not run by divine providence. The biggest change I took from the mission was the newfound ability to question LDS authority and think for myself. I remained somewhat TBM for over 2 years after the mission, but eventually "saw the light" later on. |
| Subject: | my mission laid the ground work for my leaving, here's why |
| Date: | Apr 14 12:00 |
| Author: | danboyle |
| only after "teaching" the "gospel" to a few
non-members do you realize how unique the teachings are. One realizes that the church
makes outlandish claims that it cannot back up. One sees how investigators are rushed to
be baptized before learning much about the church, numbers matter more than people,
obedience to the leaders is required etc etc. As a missionary, you see the church in a new light, after asking strangers to give up their own religion to join yours. They lose friends and family over the church, so the church had better be what it claims to be. The indoctrination of two years shows you what the church is all about, much more so than you'd learn as "just a member". I felt like I stuck my neck out for the church, and it was all a pack of lies. How foolish I was to believe it all, and try to get others to believe. My mission was in France, so baptisms were hard to come by, but we did have a few. I remember how silly the catholics seemed to me because they "were born catholic, and would die catholic", never questioning the faith they were raised in. Too bad the mormons are just the same way, locked in, and determined to stay that way, never letting the truth get in the way of a family tradition. So how did my mission contribute to my "apostasy"? I made me look at myself, and realize what a hypocrite I would be if I didn't search for the truth, no matter how painful, and go where the truth led me. Leaving the morg is much harder than staying (if you're multi-generation tbm), but that is just what we asked investigators to do: follow your conscience, be true to yourself, and never fear the truth. |
| Subject: | Same place, same time, but nothing like that clicked for me. |
| Date: | Apr 14 18:42 |
| Author: | Rocannon |
| The only thing I remember was reading the D&C in French and thinking, "gee, in French it sounds like Joseph Smith, not God, talking." But all of my thinking took place years later. |
| Subject: | I think my mission helped my inexorable path to apostasy - |
| Date: | Apr 14 13:00 |
| Author: | callipygian |
| France helped - I really related to the scepticism of the people. I
would have been miserable in a more spiritualistic, less "cartesian" culture
where there was less understanding of reason and knowledge of the way the world is. It
gave me two whole years to think about the church. It enabled me to feel that I hadn't
neglected to do all I could to give the church and its teachings a chance. It enabled me
to meet all sorts of different people which gave me insight into my beliefs (It's really
hard for people to surprise me now - I almost feel that I've developed a "gift of
discernment" through my contacts with different people). Then five years later, I was
gone! Plus I got to read that hilarious book "Already to Harvest" by Hartman Rector Jr. The highlights I can remember are: 1) show the Lord you are willing to sacrifice something for him to repay by giving you someone to teach. For example, run between houses while tracting. 2) when he was a mission president he knew some "super-missionaries" of an Alma the Younger calibre, who would do up to 115 hours of proselyting regularly per week. That's 6:30 to 9:30 per day seven days a week. |
| Subject: | That's hilarious |
| Date: | Apr 14 13:09 |
| Author: | RM |
| callipygian wrote: > 2) when he was a mission president he knew some "super-missionaries" of an Alma the Younger calibre, who would do > up to 115 hours of proselyting regularly per week. That's 6:30 to 9:30 per day seven days a week. Hartman Rector, what a card! Any missionary who thinks he/she is proselyting 115 hrs/week: 1. can't count. 2. is a liar. 3. is borderline insane. 115 hours, what a joke. I suppose one has to then ask what they counted as proselyting. My experience since I've returned from my mission is that many missions in the United States have very lax standards for what counted as proselyting. I get the feeling that in some missions every minute out of the apartment counts. |
| Subject: | I actually read the scriptures for content as well as belief ... |
| Date: | Apr 14 13:47 |
| Author: | The Magus |
| I, too, went to Denmark, but that had nothing to do with my
apostacy. It was partly the two years I spent actually reading the scriptures for content
as well as belief. All on my own, I stumbled on the different "voices," the
repeated episodes, each told differently with a different vocabulary. The LDS explanation
that the first creation account in Genesis was the planning session and the second account
the actual execution fell apart when applied to all the other repeated episodes. It wasn't
until years later that I read about the "Documentary Hypothesis," and all the
pieces fell into place. I also quickly figured out that much of the BoM was autobiographical for JS., Jr. It was clear to me that Nephi was an only lightly desguised JS, Jr. with a mirror family and whose father Lehi had Joseph Smith Sr.'s identical dream of the tree of life and the "great and spacious building." It was also an eye-opener to see my MP tell us to lie about not being missionaries at all, but instead BYU sociology students. He also pulled some other tricks that convinced me that his calling to MP had not been inspired on anybody's part. The scriptural knowledge my mission gave me and my observations of my MP's execusable behavior started my firmly on the road to apostacy. The Magus |
| Subject: | I saw up close how things really worked. |
| Date: | Apr 14 13:57 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| It started in the temple, I guess. That's it? Just a little play,
half-bored people going through the motions,some secret handshakes, passwords and promises
to kill yourself? Where's the nearness to heaven? Where's the Holy Ghost descending as a
dove? Where's the exit? This was back in the days before the MTC. There was a rushed week in the SLC Mission Home, then on a plane. About all I remember is the advice to never wear the same pair of shoes two days in a row, a doctor going on and on about problems with the GI tract (GI ract? Why is he talking about soldiers?), trying to cram the discussions without falling asleep, and going to the Hotel Utah (when it was still a hotel) for a haircut. Welcome to the beginning of a great new adventure as messengers of the Lord. During my mission I saw that my MP was an insecure bully who had the spiritual depth of an insurance salesman -- which is what he was in real life. I saw there was no inspiration, no power of discernment, very little integrity, not much common sense and a lot of sucking up. It was all about sales, numbers and pressuring people to buy, not about bringing the light of the gospel into the hearts of the searching. The last straw (mission-wise) was in my last area. Our area was way out in the wilds of Saskatchewan. The closest branch was 100 miles away. We were the only Mormons these people had ever known. Two weeks before my mission was up (I could fight trunkiness with the best f them) we baptized a woman and two of her children -- our first and only members in the area. When it was time for me to leave, they pulled my companion, too, and closed the area, leaving our converts high and dry. I was really mad. Good thing the MP was away when I got back to mission HQ. Anyway, priesthood authority never looked the same after that. I saw it was just a bunch of very ordinary guys playing make-believe, holding meetings and bossing each other around. Then there was one of my little epiphanies. In the middle of trying to talk an elderly lady into listening to the discussions, it dawned on me. I was trying to convince happy people that they really weren't and that they needed the gospel that was making me miserable. I didn't even want what I was selling. |
| Subject: | Reply to Stray Mutt |
| Date: | Apr 14 22:06 |
| Author: | Tyler |
| "I didn't even want what I was selling." Good God That is the best summation and honest introspective statement I have ever heard. That sums up my mission perfectly! Tyler |
| Subject: | I agree wholeheartedly, an extremely good summation. n/t |
| Subject: | The Peru Lima South Mission... |
| Date: | Apr 14 14:34 |
| Author: | anon |
| reeeeeeally opened my eyes, and without a doubt was the catalyst
that tore open wide the chink I got in my armor when I went through the temple (1990
pre-remove-the-blood-atonement). The first super astounding thing to me was that you could be in an area, and EVERY SINGLE AREA IN THE MISSION WAS THE SAME, where you had 500-700 members IN A BRANCH with Sunday attendance hovering around 12-20 people (depending on how many you brought in that week). This was a huge blow to my testimonkey for obvious reasons. In my mind I was thinking that the gospel is supposed to flourish and grow (as supported by the scriptures and numerous speeches), not flounder along in a constant state of apostasy. The second thing that hit me was I realized prayers aren't answered. I prayed and prayed and fasted (I went from 236lbs pre-mission to 176lbs...and I was only sick once for a day) and prayed and prayed and had a prayer constantly in my heart. Total bullshit. People simply didn't respond to us, the lesson, my prayers, the message, whatever...until I decided to become a personality...a sort of 'hey look at me I'm a star' kind of person'. I began to have more baptisms, more people came to church, we had tons of dinner dates ....so on and so forth. It became apparent to that people got involved in the church mainly for social reasons, not because of the redemptive message of the gospel. It was upsetting. Thirdly, I read and read and read. You can't read and read and read without coming to a point where you have to make a choice....a) continue to believe and ignore what you're reading, or b) accept what you're reading for what it is and don't make excuses for it. I chose the latter and decided that there was some serious problems with the gospel, namely it wasn't what I thought it was, and it kept changing. I pretty much came back from my mission an apostate, but I kept trying to ignore it and what I learned while on it. It worked long enough to get me into a quickie marriage that lasted waaaaaaay too long. I finally sent in my letter of resignation in June of 2001. Remember, the mission is for the missionary! You're number one convert is...you. |
| Subject: | My mission |
| Date: | Apr 14 14:54 |
| Author: | JUMBO |
| brought me to the verge of a nervous breakdown. I served in a
mission that was predominately LDS and everywhere I went members were watching me. I felt
like my mission was more about being a high profile example than actually serving the
Lord. I stayed in the same Stake for over half my mission. I learned that many members in business are ruthless and if I tracted in an affluent neighborhood I always got an earful about how a member shafted whoever I was speaking with. I learned that religion is wacky and spirituality dwells on the outer limits of sanity. The more spiritual you are the closer to insane you are. All of these lessons helped me to pull back, way back, to keep myself firmly grounded in reality, the rest falls into place. Thanks, JUMBO |
| Subject: | I never spiritually recovered from the reality of my mission |
| Date: | Apr 14 15:01 |
| Author: | FelixKrull |
| I served in the Munich Germany mission, and I have never really
recovered spiritually from my time there. Although it's been a slow process, I'd say my
mission experiences have absolutely pushed me away (mentailly and spiritually) from the
church, even though I'm still a member. Why? * Nothing worked. Period. Prayer, BoM, Fasting, Tracting, Street Contacting, Member work, etc. Nothing had any visible impact on the work. * Obedience does NOT lead to more baptisms, contrary to what every leader preaches. I now tell the Elders this in my ward at every opportunity. * I worked my *ss off for two years and wore myself out spiritually. It was all give and no get, let me tell you. There was nothing left for the church after this, and it's remained that way until today. |
| Subject: | FelixKrull...munich |
| Date: | Apr 15 02:03 |
| Author: | LD |
| My husband served in Munich too. He was disillusioned by the whole
idea of "faith" ....if you have enough "faith" you will find someone
who will listen. No one there wanted to listen. He came back to the states absolutely
reeling from the experience, he put all of his faith into it and nothing happened. (this
is the way I see it from what he has told me) He was spit on, someone held a gun to his head, some guy offered to listen to their message if his comp. would sleep with him...etc I don't think he'll ever recover from his time there. He did learn lots of good things though, it wasn't a total loss.. don't get the wrong idea. L I think his mission is really what got it rolling for him. |
| Subject: | Reply to: LD |
| Date: | Apr 15 09:50 |
| Author: | FelixKrull |
| When was he in Munich? I was there in the mid-1980s. I don't actually regret the time there, as I learned a lot that has helped me with the rest of my life, but I certainly would have taken it all a lot less seriously if I had it to do over again. (And hell would have to freeze over first...) |
| Subject: | I've noticed that in most all cases, it's people that never went |
| Date: | Apr 14 16:52 |
| Author: | theAntiSprite |
| on a mission that react with surprise about us apostate/RM,s. My
mission in England contributed to my leaving the church, though it took me 20 years to
leave. When you're on your mission, you do exactly what you are supposed to: read, study,
pray. You get to read....a LOT. A hell of a lot more than most all mormons. And the more
you read, the more things don't add up. At least, they don't add up if you're looking for
the truth, and that's what we tell people all day long during our mission to do, to be
open to the truth. I saw how the church basically implemented insurance sales methods to sell the gospel. I saw how they rip to shreds, those pretty visitors guests books at temple square to send names and addresses out to missionsaries.... and tell us not to reveal how we came to be at their door. I saw how much MORE of a positive impact OTHER church's were on people. I saw athiests that would give of their little means to the same hobo that was frowned on for showing up at our church wearing dirty clothes. THAT was just WRONG. We would tell people "By their fruits ye shall know them". Missionaries learn that's a pretty damning yardstick for the LDS church to measure up to. That's why most non-mission serving members come unglued over an apostate RM, and most missionaries just raise an eyebrow, and say little. theAntiSprite |
| Subject: | I was at my TBM zenith when I left for mission. Upon my return, I was fataly wounder spiritually. Let's say my spirituality was the Titanic and my mission the iceberg! nt |
| Subject: | Me too: |
| Date: | Apr 14 22:22 |
| Author: | I am Someone |
| I was as TBM as they came going out. Went because I truly wanted to
serve God and wanted to do everything I should and more- after my 2 years were up I came
home and for about 10 years I had some serious frustration/confusion/anger trying to make
the experience and firsthand knowledge of what some GAs and Mission Presidents were like
mesh with the idea that that they were called by and spoke for God. Often resulting in
long discussions with my father who served in leadership his whole life and was the one
responsible for making sure I was raised to KNOW that I would be serving a mission and who
told me constantly what a wonderful, spiritual experience it was going to be. Some of my
rage was directed at him for raising me to go through that experience, I think, though I
couldn't put my finger on that at the time. I went on my mission totally loving god and
returned scared silly of him, thanks to our MP and GA. The sad thing is, if I hadn't been
so sincere to begin with, if I hadn't believed everything I was told going into, and
during the experience by those above me who spoke for god, then I probably wouldn't have
had such a hard time with the experience. In other words, if I had been a careless
slacker, I probably would have returned home happy with the church. Instead I had lots of
inconsistancies in the church to deal with, along with my newfound fear of god (fear was a
big motivator in my mission- if you didn't meet a truly impossibly high quota (monthly
baptism in a mission where the average was 1 per year) then you were told that you were
unworthy, a dissapointment to god, and that you would be a failure in life and in eternal
life. I feared failure in life after my return in a major way, even though I was one of
the higher baptising missionaries during my tour of duty- I still felt like a failure
because I believed what I was told earlier. Finally I unwittingly entered into an e-mail debate with an anti-mormon and after several months I couldn't deny the historical problems of the early church and some of the really mean and stupid things BY and JS said and did. It took a long time of looking up facts and double checking references, putting them in context etc. But once the puzzle came together and I realized it was all a man-made crock of crap, I suddenly realized why so many things happened the way they did on my mission- it wasn't me, it wasn't for my experience, it wasn't god- it was because human beings were running things, and arrogant, butthead human beings at that. I found a new inner peace after all those years just from the realization... So my mission wasn't really the ticket to my apostacy, but I sure was glad to find out why my mission didn't mesh with what I was taught as a kid once I knew the church was not what it claimed to be. |
| Subject: | Europe, South America, North America: my theory. |
| Date: | Apr 14 18:39 |
| Author: | Rocannon |
| Sure it's unfair stereotyping, but here's how I think location of
the mission affects personality: Go to South America, you become a Mormon god (in your own
eyes) for baptizing a hundred peasants and for being smarter than anyone in the village.
Go to Europe, you become a Mormon cynic for knocking on ten thousand doors and for
learning you are a naive American. Go to North America, party heaven, slackerville. Tell me, what mission location prepares people to receive the Exmo anti-gospel? Europe, duh. The board went through some interesting discussions on this about four months ago (I exchanged comments with a dozen ex-missionaires francais like danboyle) and we concluded European missions are disproportionately represented on this board. For what it's worth. Of course, it could just be that the inspired Brethren send cynical young men and women to Europe where they can't do any harm. |
| Subject: | Actually, Rocannon, I think I'm your outlier |
| Date: | Apr 14 21:36 |
| Author: | CubicalGoatBoy |
| ...because although I served in Central America, I _still_ found a
way to get European numbers of converts! ;-) I only baptized three people my _entire_ mission. Very abysmal baptismals by central american standards. Like many I hated being a salesman. I made lots of friends, but actually never invited anyone to be baptized. My few converts were ones that asked to be baptized. My companions were frustrated with me as was my leadership. Although I was very shamed at the time for being so unsuccessful, I am happier today for not having browbeaten anyone into the church. -Goatboy |
| Subject: | *Missionary Stories - summary |
| Date: | Apr 15 00:22 |
| Author: | porkrind |
| Mail Address: |
| Wow, when I read through all these comments, I feel a serious
connection with you all. I wish we could all go to dinner together and swap stories. If we
ever do, the first round is on me! It seems like the common thread here is that we were all hard-working sincere young men who wanted to do what was right. We worked, prayed, studied and read like we were supposed to. Ironically, these things gave us a deep knowledge and body of experience that led to seeing mormonism for what it was. "Søvnløsener - Insomniac" wrote: It took 12 years but I finally understood what I heard from countless Danes: "That may be true for you, that is just not true for me" I'm of Danish ancestry, so hopefully some of that good old Danish common kicked in for me. "CubicalGoatBoy" wrote: The biggest change I took from the mission was the newfound ability to question LDS authority and think for myself. Me too, however in my case, It did not dawn on me for some years that leaving the church was an option. "danboyle" wrote: So how did my mission contribute to my "apostasy"? I made me look at myself, and realize what a hypocrite I would be if I didn't search for the truth, no matter how painful, and go where the truth led me. Leaving the morg is much harder than staying (if you're multi-generation tbm), but that is just what we asked investigators to do: follow your conscience, be true to yourself, and never fear the truth.v I wish I could have said it so perfectly well. My thoughts exactly. I salute you! "The Magus" wrote: The scriptural knowledge my mission gave me and my observations of my MP's execusable behavior started my firmly on the road to apostacy. Wow. That could have been written by me. Sounds almost like we had the same MP. "Stray Mutt" (always one of my favorite posters) wrote: It started in the temple, I guess. That's it? Just a little play, half-bored people going through the motions,some secret handshakes, passwords and promises to kill yourself? Where's the nearness to heaven? Where's the Holy Ghost descending as a dove? Where's the exit? This comment is as insightful as it is funny. A real keeper. During my mission I saw that my MP was an insecure bully who had the spiritual depth of an insurance salesman -- which is what he was in real life. I saw there was no inspiration, no power of discernment, very little integrity, not much common sense and a lot of sucking up. It was all about sales, numbers and pressuring people to buy, not about bringing the light of the gospel into the hearts of the searching. I had the same exact MP, only his career (real estate) was different. Seems like you, I, and The Magus had the same MP and the same disgusted reaction to him. Anyway, priesthood authority never looked the same after that. I saw it was just a bunch of very ordinary guys playing make-believe, holding meetings and bossing each other around. A perfect summation. "anon" wrote: I read and read and read. You can't read and read and read without coming to a point where you have to make a choice....a) continue to believe and ignore what you're reading, or b) accept what you're reading for what it is and don't make excuses for it. I completely agree. I think we all went down this same lonely bitter path. The amazing thing is that any missionaries can stay TBM while studying so much. "JUMBO" wrote: I learned that religion is wacky and spirituality dwells on the outer limits of sanity. The more spiritual you are the closer to insane you are. Well put. Insightful and thought-provoking statement. "Me" wrote: I was at my TBM zenith when I left for mission. Upon my return, I was fataly wounder spiritually. Wow. This is a profoundly sad statement. I think it fits a lot of us. In my case, the seed of my apostacy was planted on my mission in the form of: a) Developing an advanced knowledge of mormon doctrine and history. b) Seeing first hand that priesthood leadership at all levels is totally uninspired, and often petty, scheming, and political. "I am Someone" wrote: But once the puzzle came together and I realized it was all a man-made crock of crap, I suddenly realized why so many things happened the way they did on my mission- it wasn't me, it wasn't for my experience, it wasn't god- it was because human beings were running things, and arrogant, butthead human beings at that. I found a new inner peace after all those years just from the realization... Same experience for me. I found new strength, peace, and self-confidence after I got the cult thinking out of my head. |
| Subject: | I was a high baptizer, still I began to open my eyes on my mission. |
| Date: | Apr 15 10:33 |
| Author: | BornAgainPagan |
| Mail Address: |
| I was a missionary in the Amazon of Brazil, a high baptizing mission
but low retention. Here are a few things that helped me on my way to apostasy. The first thing that didn't seem right was the temple. I just seemed wrong. I was happy to be going to a mission that didn't have a temple. Second, the Amazon has a large number of revivalist pentecostal churches. I realized that if a church could make people believe they were speak in tongues, see angles, cast out devils, and roll on the floor, how much easier it would be to convince people that an emotional feeling was the spirit. Third, I went to a ZL conference where the APs wanted to help us recognize the spirit but their plan backfired. They taught us that they had received new instructions for the last days that will bring thousands of converts into the church. We were to promise them that if they prayed they would see the face of Christ and know this was the true church. When they spoke I thought I felt the spirit but in my brain I knew it couldn't be right. Various missionaries stood and bore testimony that they knew this was a correct principle, one said he receive a sure witness of it, etc. The APs hope that we would feel a confusion in our hearts and know it was not the spirit, instead many felt the spirit about a lie. Many missionaries left that meeting doubting the validity of their testimonies. I learned that feelings are not proof of anything. Fourth, I realized I needed proof to truly believe in the church so, I asked my parents to send me info on the dead sea scrolls. They sent me a FARMS book. It boosted my faith but I wanted the source material so I had my parents send me the actual translations. I couldn't find any of the things that FARMS was claiming, they were nothing but extreme exaggerations and wild interpretations. I realized that if these were the facts about the church, I needed to reexamine it. By this time I was about to go home. When I got back I went on a search for the truth looking for real facts that prove the church true. When that failed, I started examining claims made by anti-mormons (thinking I would at least be able to prove them false) etc. Finding out about the Book of Abraham was what finally made me sure it was all a scam. |
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