Subject:

Mormonism requires Adam and Eve story to be literal history

Date:

Mar 29 13:16 2003

Author:

Deconstructor

1. Do Mormons believe the Adam and Eve story is literal history?

There can be no doubt that Mormons accept the story of Adam and Eve as literal history, and that ALL humans came from Adam and Eve. Here's just a few examples of this teaching:

1 Ne. 5: 11
11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;

Morm. 3: 20
20 And these things doth the Spirit manifest unto me; therefore I write unto you all. And for this cause I write unto you, that ye may know that ye must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; and ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil;

"Adam and Eve Were the First People to Come to This Earth. Our Father in Heaven named the first people on earth Adam and Eve. They were two of His most valiant children. They made it possible for all of us to come to earth.
- Gospel Fundamentals, Part Two: Leaving the Presence of God, 6: Adam and Eve, Page 21

Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. … The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 157

2. In this literall historical account, where did Eve come from?

Abraham 5: 14-17
"And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him. And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof; And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said: This was bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; now she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man;"

Moses 3:22-23
"And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

Moses 4: 26
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many."

Mormon Temple Endowment - taken as literal history by TBMs:

ELOHIM: We will cause a deep sleep to come upon this man whom we have formed, and we will take from his side a rib from which we will form a woman to be a companion and helpmeet for him.

ELOHIM: Adam, here is a woman whom we have formed and whom we give unto you to be a companion and helpmeet for you. What will you call her?

ADAM:: Eve.

ELOHIM: Why will you call her Eve?

ADAM:: Because she is the mother of all living.

ELOHIM: That is right, Adam; because she is the mother of all living.

Prophet Brigham Young, author of today's temple endowment, said in General Conference address Oct. 8, 1854:

"Adam planted the Garden of Eden, and [,] partook of the fruit of this earth, until their systems were charged with the nature of earth, and then they could beget bodies, for their spiritual children . If the spirit does not enter into the embreo man that is forming in the womb of the woman, the result will be false conception. A living intelligent being cannot be produced. Adam and Eve begot the first mortal bodies on this earth, and from that commencement every spirit that was ever begotten in eternity for this earth will enter bodies thus prepared for them here, until the winding up scene, and that will not be until the last spirits enter an earthly tabernacle."

"Then I reckon that the children of Adam and Eve married each other; this is speaking to the point. I believe in sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for wives. Why? Because we cannot do otherwise. There are none others for me to marry but my sisters. "But you do not pretend to say you would marry your father, and mother's daughter. "

"If I did not I would marry another of my sisters that lives over in another Garden; the material of which they are organized is just the same; there is no difference between them, and those who live in this garden. The spirits are all brothers and sisters, and so are our bodies; and the opposite idea to this has resulted from the ignorant, and foolish traditions of the nations of the earth. They have corrupted themselves with each other, and I want them to understand that they have corrupted their own flesh, blood, and bones; for they are of the same flesh, blood, and bones, of all the family of the earth."

Subject:

I think you are right

Date:

Mar 29 18:02

Author:

rpm

The additional Mormon accounts of the creation seem to leave out all possibility that this story could be interpreted allegorically, or as a myth.

That along with the further exegesis by so-called lds authorities makes an allegorical/mythical interpretation even more difficult.

The temple account, by itself, however, does leave more room for a mythical interpretation. But you can hardly have one And the other, so they're basically forced into a literal interpretation only.

Good points.

rpm

Subject:

Re: I think you are right

Date:

Mar 29 21:45

Author:

Switz1

Obviously the mormons are unaware that in the Old Testament there are TWO origin stories. In the first one after creating all the other stuff "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him' male and female he created them." Genesis Chapt 1 (first story) (No rib mentioned at all)

2nd story: Genesis Chapt 2 (second story) God made the earth and heavens. No field shrub or grass had sprouted for the Lord God had sent no rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the soil, but a stream was welling up out of the earth and was watering all the surface of the ground.... The Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostril the breath of life. THEN God planted a garden in Eden...... and placed there the man whom he had formed. Then He made various trees, including the Tree of Good and Evil. The Bible then talks about the rivers etc and God told Adam about not eating the forbidden fruit but he could eat from any of the other trees.
In the next verse The Lord God said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him. So the Lord God formed out of the ground all of the animals. Adam gave them all names.

Then in the next verse God got around to the rib and formed it into woman.

Now remember, these stories are from the Hebrews and are ancient. That is why they are referred to as Primeval History. There was no written word in the beginning, everything was handed down generation to generation orally.

Subject:

Yeah, complete with the talking snake that "beguiled" Eve

Date:

Mar 30 00:15

Author:

Maori man

That talking snake troubled Thomas Paine who wrote The Age of Reason. 'Bothered me too.

Subject:

What's more the Tower of Babel must be literal history as well

Date:

Mar 30 00:26

Author:

Makurosu

Remember that the Jaredites left for the Promised Land during the confusion that ensued after the Tower of Babel. That means that Mormons must also believe in the tower and in the confusion of the languages. An outrageous belief, to say the least.

I keep hearing TBM's say "it might have happened," because no evidence is devastating enough to absolutely prove it wrong. Especially when they refuse to look at it. But when you start to combine these unlikely stories, ie. the Garden of Eden, the worldwide Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Passover (where every firstborn Egyptian son died in a single night, though this event was never recorded in Egyptian history), then all the improbabilities that exist when you accept the Book of Mormon as a literal record, and you have an outrageous belief system.

Subject:

Now I actually like the Tower of Babel story... Its one of the better myths to come out of the Bible...

Date:

Mar 30 19:31

Author:

juxtaposed

From a linguistics perspective, we know that there seems to be some "universal" grammar to all languages... Blah de blah de blah, Chomsky's famous book on generative grammar, blah de blah de blah...

Now if you consider that languages slowly evolve over time and maintain remnents of their origin throughout their entire duration...

Then we could say, well, everyone on earth was born with a brain and the vocal abilities to express a certain very specific "universal" language. Language has not evolved at all, and does not evolve, language is constant.

Tower of babel comes along, and humans are enchanted with the ability to evolve and develop their language... Before you know it new languages are forming... Give it a few thousand years and you have a bunch of languages, like today!

We just toss in the contingency that the tower was beamed away, blew up, who knows, whatever, and the story actually works. It's a pretty reasonable myth that does a fine job of producing a goofy (yet functional) explenation of how language actually works (with a little bending that is)...

I like it! :-)

Subject:

Speaking of the snake

Date:

Mar 30 02:26

Author:

Terrasanct

The snake was an important element in some of the Goddess religions. It was a symbol of truth. Putting the snake in the Garden myth speaking evil was done on purpose to cast aspersions on the Goddess religions. Of course, making Eve the fall guy, so to speak, was part of the same plan.

I always thought the temple film spoke of the story as allegorical, too.

Subject:

The temple narrator used to say that the creation of "the man and the woman" was figurative

Date:

Mar 30 08:32

Author:

SteveH

in the endowment sessions when live actors were used.

I don't recall if the symbolism is noted in the current temple movies.

Subject:

They took that little explanatory note out

Date:

Mar 30 10:57

Author:

rpm

from the pre-1990 version of the lds temple endowment: The work of the six creative periods will be represented. They will also organize man in their own likeness and image, male and female. This, however, is simply figurative so far as the man and woman are concerned.

The bold portion was removed.

What gets me is why? Is the symbolic nature of this portion of the endowment supposed to be taken for granted, making such an explanatory note completely redundant?

Or, are they now suggesting, by omission, that it is to be understood literally?

Is this one of those so-called "stumbling blocks" God puts in the way to keep those who should know better from knowing, and thus stumbling?

rpm

Subject:

Temple Endowment meant to be taken literally (references)

Date:

Mar 30 11:23

Author:

Deconstructor

Mail Address:

It is very clear that the author of the temple endowment ceremony and early Mormon prophets meant the temple endowment to be taken at least in part as literal history. Here are even more references to this fact:

"Consequently we can readily and safely draw the conclusion that a man or woman who has sprang from the loins of Father Adam and Mother Eve, whether upon the islands of the sea, in the west, in the east, or on the opposite side of this globe, is flesh of our flesh, and bone of our bone, as much so as any person now in this house or in this Territory. But the relationship that I claim, is to those who do the will of our Father in heaven; they are my brethren and sisters.
- Prophet Brigham Young, author of the temple endowment, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p.280

"You are flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone. God has created of one blood all the nations and kingdoms of men that dwell upon all the face of the earth: black, white, copper-coloured, or whatever their colour, customs, or religion, they have all sprung from the same origin; the blood of all is from the same element. Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits."
- - Prophet Brigham Young, author of the temple endowment, Journal of Discouses, Vol. 7, p.290

"...it is a pity there is such a quarrel in the family. In the flesh we are the sons and daughters of Father Adam and Mother Eve: we are all one family;"
- - Prophet Brigham Young, author of the temple endowment, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.348

Mormon scripture explicity refers to the physicial process of creating Eve. The endowment barely touches on this, but Mormon scripture speaks in very literal terms, making it clear that this was a literal process:

Abraham 5: 14-17
"And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him. And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof; And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said: This was bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; now she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man;"

Moses 3:22-23
"And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

Moses 4: 26
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many."

The church has also published literal interpretations of this event:

"[Adam] had sufficient intelligence imparted to him, to give names to all beasts, and cattle, and the fowls of the air, when the Lord brought them unto him; he had intelligence enough to know that Eve was made from one of his ribs; hence, he said "This is now bone of my hones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."
- The Seer, Vol.1, No.5, p.70-p.71

The temple endowment itself used to contain a "lecture at the veil" that explains Eve coming from Adam as a literal event but with a symbolic interpretation:

"It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve--This should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other men had the seed within him to propagate his species, but not the Woman; she conceives the seed but she does not produce it; consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. This explains the mystery of Moses' dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh, bones and sinews.
- "Lecture at the Veil" portion of the endowment, Dictated by Brigham Young 1 February 1877

Notice how this lecture at the veil, which used to be part of the temple endowment, specifically refers to Moses as a "historian." I think it's clear that Brigham Young, the author of the temple endowment, intended the endowment to be taken at least in part, as literal history.

Here's how Brigham Young defined the purpose of the temple endowment ceremony:

"Let me give you the definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p.31. (see also 2:315; 5:133; 6:63, 154-55; 8:339; 9:25-26, 91; 10:172; 11:27; 12:164 18:132; 19:250)

In other words, the signs and token given in the temple are literal actions that must be literally used to enter heaven. These temple instructions are not merely spiritual myths, symbols or allegories.

This is also what the Prophet Joseph Smith taught:

"[the prophet] Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.63

Subject:

Yeah, yeah, yeah....But who actually believes THAT?

Date:

Mar 30 11:35

Author:

rpm

Do honest, thinking mormons actually believe that on the way to Heaven they have to give, literally, certain special handshakes, motions with their arms, and secret passwords to angelic beings in order to finally get there?

I mean, that whole scenario seems so preposterous that it Must Point to something else. Not unlike the story of the snake (with legs?) in the garden of eden, talking and carrying about like it were human? Come on...

Intelligent folk ought to know better.

rpm

Subject:

TBMs believe it enough to...

Date:

Mar 30 11:48

Author:

Deconstructor

Mail Address:

Do honest mormons actually think that on the way to Heaven they have to give certain special handshakes, motions with their arms, secret passwords to angelic beings in order to finally get there?

It's seems crazy if you're not a true-believer, but yes, I think most Mormons accept that. Current church leaders and church manuals on the temple still quote Brigham Young's claim that the handshakes and keywords are to pass by sentinels.

TBMs must believe it enough to keep going to the temple and actively participating in temple rites.

And what's the alternative explanation for TBMs? If it's not true, then why the handshakes and secret words? Why the new name? Mormons are told by their leaders that this is literal knowledge needed to pass guards to enter heaven. Why should TBMs doubt it, considering they also believe in seer stones, angelic visitations and priesthood blessings?

You forget what it's like to be a real TBM. They honestly believe that shit.

Subject:

As TBM, I tried to look for a deeper meaning

Date:

Mar 30 12:03

Author:

rpm

because the obvious, literal one was too simple, too absurd.

So, I would try to think of ways in which the names, handshakes, passwords, signs, etc. were indicators of something related, in a spiritual sense, but altogether different.

I admit, I was probably one in a thousand.

rpm

Subject:

The sources of Mormon literalism

Date:

Mar 30 18:28

Author:

Dude

The way Mormons think about Adam and Eve is simply part of the simplistic literal interpretations Mormons force on the scriptures whenever possible.

I think this comes from (1) the Book of Mormon, which describes a variety of fantastic and supernatural events as literal historical events; (2) Joseph Smith, who interpreted everything literally (except maybe that part about "thou shalt not commit adultery," which was obviously figurative); and (3) the Joseph Fielding Smith/Bruce R. McConkie school of unschooled scriptural interpretation, which pretty much gutted the possibility of real Mormon scriptural scholarship in the modern era.

Subject:

not only that Decon

Date:

Mar 30 19:20

Author:

SLDrone

But the Mormon view of Adam and Eve is necessary in order to create the need for a Savior from their fall. Without a literal Adam and Eve, and their tempter Lucifer, there is no need of a mortal savior. "And we will provide for them a Savior". The reason for Christ ceases to exist if Adam and his subsequent fall are rendered myth. It's all so laughable now.

And besides that, to whom would Brigham Young have prayed?