Subject: Tired of being egocentric...
Date: Feb 15 11:09
Author: dad23chicks
Over the past year I've gone from being a Stake HC [High Council] to doubting everything I've been taught for my entire life about the church.


The church has taught me that the whole reason I am here on earth is for a "probation", a time for me to prove myself worthy. But I started to ask myself "if earth is where I'll have my chance to prove my worthiness before God, what about everyone else?" "What about all the other inhabitants of this globe?" If God really wanted to create a proving ground for his spirit offspring wouldn't the scope of the testing be a bit more inclusive?


One day it started to dawn on me just how many people there are in the world, and just how many have gone before. Right now there is somewhere around 6 Billion people on earth, and there have been many many more who have already passed. If you factor in the 1/3 of heavens hosts that didn't even make the grade from the pre-mortal life, your dealing with a vast sea of humanity. As a TBM one has to assume that of all these billions upon billions of people in the plan, only a tiny sliver of humanity deserves the chance to have all the tools for a return. When TBM's use the term "elect" or "chosen" I wonder if they realize how literal those terms are.


Subject: I used to wonder about that too
Date: Feb 15 11:19
Author: Makurosu
In fact, I asked my mission president about this once, and his reply was that it was a sign of how successful we were among God's children. Not only are we among the tiny fraction of the inhabitants of the Earth who "made the cut" and received the gospel during mortality, but we also are privileged to be on the one Earth in all the Universe where the Savior made his sacrifice. Furthermore, there is good indication that our Father in Heaven was the Only Begotten of his generation of spirits. Hence the saying by Jesus "I do only that which I have seen my Father do." SOOOOOO... where much is given much is required, right? Blah blah blah...

Subject: Personally, I think Mormons are some of the most self-centered people on the planet.
Date: Feb 15 11:23
Author: nolongerin
Think about it. RS [Relief Society] sisters talk about doing compassionate service "for the blessings." Tithing is paid out of fear and "for the blessings." Everything is for the blessing of self first.

I am married to a man with grown children. He is a wonderful father, but we are fifth string on their priority list: behind the TBM parents (stepdad is on the high council; my husband is a home teacher), behind the spouse's parents (Bishops), behind church activities, behind church friends. Last on the list. Pure selfishness.

And take a look at Mormon wedding annoucements. They get sent to EVERYONE, close, far, distant, practically never heard from. The message? Send me presents! I'm getting married in the temple! Bless me!

I am happier now as an exmo than I ever was as a mo, and guess what? I take food to sick people because I want to, not because I should, and I do it knowing that I'm not doing it for the blessings, and it feels so good to know that there are no strings attached to my giving.

Another one: think about the number of lds boy scouts you know who have done cheesy eagle scout projects to make sure they have their eagle, as the church counsels, by 14. The projects aren't REAL service, just a way of getting through the system. And then mo's say :look at all of our eagle scouts! We have the highest percentage in the area! Aren't we wonderful?

Meanwhile, the kids down at the methodist church (or wherever) have waited until age 17 or 18 to complete their eagle, and have sunk some real time, effort, and maturity into the experience. (It's usually not a blood drive--not to say we don't need blood drives, but where's the challenge?)

Sorry I went on a tirade.


Subject: I long ago noticed the same thing myself in the LDS Church....
Date: Feb 15 11:54
Author: D.Perkins
that is, the idea that we should do good things in order to "get blessings". This always struck me as simply another form of self-interest, rather than true charity or love. I can truthfully say, in the two years my wife and I have been members of the United Methodist Church, where "good works" to help others and improve the world are highly emphasized, I have never once heard anyone advocate doing works of charity in order to "get blessings". In the Mormon church, I heard it all the time, including from General Authorities in General Conference talks and in church publications.


Subject: That is one of the main reasons I left
Date: Feb 15 11:53
Author: Violotron
I was tired of the 'only WE have the truth' crap that was constantly spewed. I knew too many neat people that were non-mormon, it didn't seem right. What about the rest of the world? I came to the conclusion that God was there for everybody, God DID NOT discriminate.

I couldn't hold this view and remain mormon.


Subject: That's why they love the temple
Date: Feb 15 12:08
Author: Deb
I feel exactly the same way you do now. I get claustrophobic in a mormon church just because of the closed off feeling that exists--all the "elite" in it for themselves.

I never understood the people who said they absolutely love going to the temple. Even when I did go, I never once really enjoyed it so I thought everyone else was lying and just saying they love it (Emporor's New Clothes Syndrome). But now I think a lot of people really do love it because they can sit in there in the palace on the hill and think about all the billions of people in the world and how they are so elite because they are even a member of the church and then super elite because they're part of the minority of church members who can get into the building they're sitting in--the holiest place on the face of the earth.

They love that feeling of eliteness, they love thinking about the billions of other people who don't have the same thing and instead of it bothering them that those other billions never had the "chance" they had, it reinforces their reason for being.


Subject: Wait a minute!! Didn't an apostle recently say.......
Date: Feb 15 12:30
Author: Bob
that God's love is "conditional.'  [See Mormon177] But then, again, the well-respected Bro. Covey said that it is "unconditional."

Man....now I'm REALLY confused. Maybe I'll read up on what Brother Brigham said....but then, again, he's dead, so he doesn't count.

See why I left?? Best Wishes!!


Subject: BY is dead AND embarrassing - so he REALLY doesn't count anymore ;) n/t
Subject: I started to wish...
Date: Feb 15 12:42
Author: Fly
...that I' d never heard the gospel.

I wanted to be one of the other billions of people on the planet unburdened by the "blessing" of having the gospel.

After all, I was one of the few (relatively speaking) people in the world who would be condemned and damned for not living in accordance with every little jot and tittle to spew forth from the mouth of a "prophet." Better to never have known about it, I began to think. After all, was I really so much more blessed than my Catholic friend?

These were very dangerous thoughts, and I usually repented immediately for being ungrateful enough to have them.


Subject: Re: Tired of being egocentric...
Date: Feb 15 13:02
Author: Ex-caliber
A big one for me was the realization that many religions in the world claim to be God's chosen religion. These include Islam (Muslims), and Catholicism which have hundreds of millions of members. So, I'm more special than almost everyone else, huh? - - - uh, sure.


Subject: RE: New to the board.
Date: Feb 15 15:22
Author: síóg
I've been enjoying your posts, dad23chicks.


Subject: Giving up the Special-ness.
Date: Feb 15 15:26
Author: Breeze
Once I truly and completely realized that all the "chosen," "elite," "valliant," labels and the "rewards in heaven" were just plastic celestial carrots, my road out was clear. Giving up the specialness, the chosen-ness of being an elite (even though I was merely a convert, I felt I was working harder to make up for that), was a cleansiing experience.

I became Jenny. A mom. A woman in a divorce. A daughter. A female definitely in need of a job and a better car. A good decent person making the best of a very, very bad marriage and trying not to beat herself up too bad for some really bad judgment calls.

I wasn't elite. I wasn't special. I wasn't storing up eternal rewards in heaven. I was just a decent person among billions of decent people trying to get through life with a bit of satisfaction and hoping my kids will still want to talk to me when I'm old.

I became just like everyone else.

And it was good. Deep down, soul-reaching good. I was no longer looking down on the masses. I was a part of humanity, not trying to falsely live above it.

I looked back and laughed loudly at the pious (and not so pious) mormons who have such concern for the souls of those who have not "found The Gospel." Those mormons call themselves a humble people and talk and talk and talk about humility as long as the damn day is long. Humility. They wouldn't recognize humility if it drove into their living room in a mac truck. Mormons are the most arrogant, puffed-up, condescending, self-righteous, selfish people I know. Even the ones that are nice are happily deluding themselves in their higher position in this, yea even God' world. Would they want to be just another human? Heck no! They want to be "chosen," "elite," and "valliant." They are greedy and all cons ever performed have played on greed. It's not money they're after. It's position. Well, let them have. Even if it is all in their heads.


Subject: Re: Tired of being egocentric...
Date: Feb 15 16:33
Author: AussieJohn
One of our TV channels is currently airing a program on the evolution of evolution. I've only seen a bit of it but I'm glad I caught a segment the other night
This scientist was saying how special we ALL are, not only humans but every living organism on the planet because we are the strongest of the strong, the best of the best; we are the fittest that have survived; that currently existing organisms have adapted most successfully to the environment.
He said we have the best genes, the best DNA, that we are very, very special.
That gave me the warm and fuzzies; that gave me a burning bosom.
I looked at my gentle, funny, kind, loving, handsome partner and could really believe it. I looked at our gorgeous, so-o intelligent dog and could believe it. I looked around at our indoor plants and could believe it.
I looked at the persistent spider webs in the high corners of our rooms and could believe it, and that bloody annoying mosquito that we just couldn't swat, and could believe it.
It was another moment for me of feeling my uniqueness and at-oneness with the universe.
"I" am made of the stuff of the stars and the same elements that compose my body also composes those magnificent galaxies, stars, gasses, atoms, neutrons, electrons and all the other -rons.
Am I elite? You bet I am. Am I unique? No doubt about it but then so is each generation of molecules and that to me is the magnificence of the divine. That awes and inspires me.
And one of my constant joys is to be associated with all you unique, elite, special, fittest of the fit that inhabit this little bit of cyberspace.
We already see as we are seen and know as we shall be known.
Subject: Thanks rpm, Red Pill (miss ya) and regular
Date: Feb 15 23:50
Author: AussieJohn
Not for a minute did I expect such lovely, positive replies to my post. Just trying to share my beliefs and feelings.
regular, I have nothing I can recommend to read or watch. My beliefs, feelings and ideas have come about after two decades of release from mormonism.
I love Carl Sagan's "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" and I have enjoyed Hawking's books. Bishop John Shelby Spong is a favourite also but generally, I notice newspaper and magazine articles. Pick up threads, hints and ideas, from the myriad stuff I do read. Take note of a TV show here and there.
It's all just gelled in my mind and suits me.
And lately I'm finding there is even a place in my thoughts and feelings for "god" - as I'm perceiving that concept to be.
Overall, it's the universe I'm in love with. I wish it were possible to just get out there and walk amongst it and marvel and not be confined to one marvellously beautiful teensy, itsy bitsy drop of dust at the furthmost reaches of a galaxy, lost amidst the myriads of extraordinary bodies and bits and peices that make up the universe.


Subject: I have also marveled at being here on the little blue planet,
Date: Feb 16 03:18
Author: Primrose
with all the fantastic things were share it with. Our ancestors had to have survived all the disasters that have befallen this planet for millions of years for us to be here now. If one of them had not had a child to grow up and have a child we would not be here. the more Science finds out about our origins the more fantastic it is. Everyone on this earth is special like Aussie John says and we should not forget that and rejoice in it.


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