| Subject: | Anybody else bugged by that "this is the most wicked of all worlds" stuff? |
| Date: | Aug 30 12:10 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| I don't even know if the Morg still teaches it, doesn't seem like
I've heard that particular topic discussed for a long while... Anyway, in my youth I remember being taught that this is the most wicked of all the inhabited worlds. You know, we had to be the absolute worst to crucify Christ, etc. etc. That always seemed incredibly unlikely to me. Geez, we won the lottery! Of all the millions and millions of inhabited worlds, we all landed on the most evil possible one! What are the odds....? In addition to the statistical unlikeliness of this being the most evil of all worlds, that doctrine just never rang true to me. Probably because this has never seemed like such a bad place to me. Sure, it has its ups and downs, but the most evil place in the universe??? Give me a break. Alpha Centauri III... now THERE are some bad dudes in that place... Regards, Arch. |
| Subject: | Yes, that was really emphasized during the 30 years I was in. nt |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:00 |
| Author: | Carolsue |
| Subject: | Kinda makes the universe a bit dull |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:08 |
| Author: | TryingDynamic |
| Mail Address: |
| I mean WE are the worst thats out there?!?!?! No evil aliens like Sigorney Weaver fought? No telepathic grays probing peoples butts. No klingons, Kardassians, or the breen. No evil changlings. No "IT" No Criiters No "V" aliens Just us. Scary aren't we? In a way we are sc ary, but I think that comes from our stupidity more than anything. For us to be the scariest thing out there we would also have to be the smartest. If we were dumb comparatively than our puny weapons would be nothing. "Ha ha now I've got u sucker-muffin-alien-scum!..*Bang* *bang*!" "Oh, you silly Earthling, my epidermal sealant won't allow your puny projectile weapons to harm me. But, I forgive you have some galactic postum." |
| Subject: | On the other hand...here's evidence that this world really IS the most evil: |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:33 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| Spice Girls New York Yankees Internal Revenue Service |
| Subject: | It actually makes sense. |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:11 |
| Author: | brefots |
| Mail Address: |
| You see, because of our wickedness we don't believe in a fairytale without proof. But on all the other "rightouss" planets the people are so close to the spirit (read blind and obedient) that they believe anything |
| Subject: | Yeah, exactly. You may be paying, praying and obeying, |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:07 |
| Author: | Eve of Destruction |
| Mail Address: |
| but you're still only good compared to other beings on the wickedest planet in the universe. And you're lower than the dust of the earth to start with because the dust obeys God in everything but you don't. So you'd better pay, pray, and obey some more. |
| Subject: | Essay on this very topic... |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:13 |
| Author: | Sophocles |
| Mail Address: |
| William Shunn has a nice essay on his website that deals with this
topic. Mostly he delves into the statistical improbability that we would happen to inhabit
the one world that the Savior came to, whose father was also the savior of his universe,
etc. But he also makes the remark that he can imagine much more wicked worlds than this
one. Here's the link, and if you've never been to this site, before, you might want to spend some time there. It's great! http://www.shunn.net/mormon/korihor/special.html |
| Subject: | Re: Essay on this very topic... |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:25 |
| Author: | Trish Timm |
| My thought is that how arrogant to think we are the only world there is to be inhabited. |
| Subject: | Seeing the whole picture. |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:53 |
| Author: | Huh? |
| Mail Address: |
| My thought is how egocentric we are to believe existance is really such a prize. |
| Subject: | Re: Essay on this very topic... |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:26 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| That is a good site. I love the cartoon with the little South Park guy saying "Oh, fu**, we're going to outer darkness!!". |
| Subject: | The "Spiritualists" believe this is a very "negative" planet. |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:55 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Mail Address: |
| For some reason, people tend to focus on the bad, evil, negative.
Maybe because it is easier. Personally, I think it is a matter of how you choose to see the world. The glass is either half empty or half full depending on your attitude and focus. |
| Subject: | Re: The Glass: Are you drinking or pouring? |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:39 |
| Author: | Breeze |
| Mail Address: |
| We all do some of both. So sometimes, my glass is indeed half empty and then sometimes it's half full. It can be a good thing either way. |
| Subject: | I combined that with another doctrine |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:25 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| The idea that the Son only does that which he has seen the Father do. Or that the Father was the Savior of his generation of spirits. So, not only are we the worst of the worst, but our Father in Heaven was the Christ of his group. Those odds were a little far out for me. |
| Subject: | I had forgotten about that one... |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:28 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| ... so, considering that the universe is billions of years old, does
that mean the inhabitants of the previous worlds had to wait for Christ to be born on this
world and fulfill his divine mission? The inhabitants of early worlds would wind up
waiting billions of years for their salvation. I would be PISSED!! Arch. |
| Subject: | No, it's actually not that bad |
| Date: | Aug 30 13:39 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| For each exalted Father there is a Savior. Or in other words, there
is a Savior for each generation of spirit children. Once there is enough spirit children
for 7000 years of temporal existence on an Earth, they get sent down. Since the Savior is
the "firstborn," he's in the first group, so none of the later spirit children
for other Earths have to wait. Okay, I'm going to go take an Advil now. |
| Subject: | Yes, but... |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:01 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| each Exalted Father is the Father of many worlds, which would of
course span over a time period of what... millions if not billions of years... People on
the other worlds would have to have waited long periods of time for their salvation. AND,
they would have to believe in a Savior that had never set foot on their planet! Wow, they
must be believers of Olympian proportions... Arch. |
| Subject: | They'd get to see their Savior |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:14 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| The Savior is the firstborn of their father, so he would already
have paved the way for the rest of them to be exalted. After that, he would have gone
around on a grand tour of all the worlds, sort of like how he visited the Americas and the
Lost Ten Tribes. Did you know that Ray Bradbury wrote a short story once about a man who discovered that Jesus had been visiting worlds and teaching the people? The man tried to follow, travelling from world to world, getting closer and closer, but never quite getting there in time to see him. It was an interesting story, and I can't remember the name of it. |
| Subject: | Youth Conference memories... |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:08 |
| Author: | Pretend TBM |
| Archimedes wrote: > Anyway, in my youth I remember being taught that this is the most wicked of all the inhabited worlds. You know, we had to be the absolute worst to crucify Christ, etc. etc. Wow! You brought back a flood of Youth Conference memories to me! Here is what I learned... This world was for the worst and the BEST. Of course us teenagers were the best of the bunch. We were born at the last days and LDS! Of course most of us just wanted to find someone to make out with. :-) Here is what I thought. What would life be like on the other planets? Would they learn about a "Christ" that lived on another planet? Or would the Atonement be represented another way? Did Christ visit them? And if we had the best and the worst, were there no sons of perdition on other planets? And I just kept picturing a planet with all of the middle of the road spirits. Like 6 billion marginally active LDS. Everyone kind of belives in the church, but no one agrees to be bishop. :-) |
| Subject: | Goes right along with... |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:33 |
| Author: | al-marek |
| ...the Jews being the only nation wicked enough to crucify their
god. Yeah, I remember being taught this silly dogma, too. al-marek |
| Subject: | Where's the actual reference behind this doctrine? |
| Date: | Aug 30 14:41 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Mail Address: |
| I heard this same teaching growing up in the church. But apart from Primary, Seminary and Testimony Meeting, is there a solid reference for this doctrine? |
| Subject: | It comes from the Book of Moses |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:18 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| God is speaking to Enoch: Moses 7:36 36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. A few verses earlier is the reference to millions of Earths: Moses 7:30 30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever; Ever notice what a braggard God is? |
| Subject: | Yeah, I remember that. |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:08 |
| Author: | csadevilish |
| Mail Address: |
| I'm not sure if it was in the manuals, though. Maybe it was "popular mormon folk doctrine." |
| Subject: | correcting previous erroneos posts |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:33 |
| Author: | tbm eavesdropper |
| Mail Address: |
| Brigham Young taught that every world has its own temptor and every
world has its own Savior. So, Lucifer is the Devil of this Earth only and Jesus Christ is
the Savior of this world only. The teaching that the Jews were the only nation wicked enough to kill their own King was referring to the nations of this world only. As usuall, many mormons take their own interpretation of scripture and teach it as if it were church doctrine. This is one of those cases, IMHO. Of cource, that is exactly what I am doing too, but I am right. |
| Subject: | Interesting... |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:39 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| I don't doubt that Brigham Young taught this, and it reminds me of
the temple movie where Lucifer says that he is only doing what has been done in other
worlds. So, that could very well be true. Then again, Brigham Young also taught that Adam
is God. Since the Church excommunicates people for teaching that now, I think we can
safely doubt that whatever Brigham taught is the final word on LDS doctrine. I think you're right about Mormons taking their own interpretation of scripture and teaching it as if it were church doctrine. I learned what I posted from my mission president. I worked in the mission office for a few months, and many times I would sit in his office with him and pick his brain about doctrine. So, it looks like there a couple of different ideas about this floating around. Either one is okay by me, since I don't believe a word of it. ;-) |
| Subject: | It just occurred to my that, if the Church is excommunicating members who teach the Adam-God business, then, if Bring 'em Young lived today, he would be excommunicated! Wow!!! n/t |
| Date: | Aug 30 16:26 |
| Author: | wonderman |
| Subject: | "Follow the prophet... Follow the prophet... |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:36 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| ...in this there is safety, in this there is.... SAFETY!" |
| Subject: | "...but I am right" |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:43 |
| Author: | Sophocles |
| Mail Address: |
| Well, why didn't you say so? Perhaps you could clear up a few other things for us? Maybe we'd all go back to church. |
| Subject: | Thanks! |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:44 |
| Author: | Pretend TBM |
| tbm eavesdropper wrote: > Brigham Young taught that every world has its own temptor and every world has its own Savior. So, Lucifer is the Devil of this Earth only and Jesus Christ is the Savior of this world only. Hence the part in the Endowment when it is mentioned that the same thing is going to happen in this world that happened in other worlds... I get it. So if Jesus is the firstborn, are the other Christs the firstborn to another Heavenly Father, or maybe the same Father and a different Heavenly Mother? > The teaching that the Jews were the only nation wicked enough to kill their own King was referring to the nations of this world only. Yea, I never learned that the Jews were wicked as a people, just that particular group of people around Jesus at that time (that may go for the Romans as well). > Of cource, that is exactly what I am doing too, but I am right. Yea, of course *you* are right. It's all those other people that are wrong. :-) |
| Subject: | Correcting Previous erroneous spelling of "erroneous" |
| Date: | Aug 30 20:01 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| Why is it TBM's have such trubble speling curectly? And, btw, lurking TBM correction-meister... you don't know what you're talking about. The sources cited in this thread make it quite plain that Mormon doctrine teaches Christ is the Savior of multiple worlds. How many, we just don't know... It's kind of like baseball (George Carlin rip-off)... we don't know WHEN it's going to end... Of course, as some astute poster pointed out... it doesn't make much difference, since I don't believe a word of it anyway... |
| Subject: | I do not think tbm eavesdropper is correct |
| Date: | Aug 30 20:45 |
| Author: | I am someone |
| Mail Address: |
| I was always taught that Jesus was the savior of all worlds under God the Father. I no longer have sources to back that up, but I'm pretty sure conference talks leaned in that direction in the 90s. I always understood like Mak, and with the added bonus that our world was the most wicked because Jesus was to come here, and where you have the most light you have the most darkness. tbm eavesdropper, if you drop by again, could you please provide references? |
| Subject: | Ensign Article |
| Date: | Aug 30 15:55 |
| Author: | Sophocles |
| Mail Address: |
| Here's a great article I found on the Church's website from the
April 1971 Ensign, entitled "People on Other Worlds": http://library.lds.org/Library/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&2.0 Why don't they print articles like this anymore? It seems like the Ensign was much more interesting before mainstreaming came along. Incidentally, on the Church's home page, the first link on the directory menu is "Basic Beliefs." What they need is a link for "Advanced Beliefs"... |
| Subject: | Link didn't work |
| Date: | Aug 30 16:09 |
| Author: | Sophocles |
| Mail Address: |
| Hmmm, I guess I don't know what I'm doing. Here are excerpts from
the article, if anyone is interested: Kent Nielsen, “People on Other Worlds,” New Era, Apr. 1971, 12 ... Age-old questions again come to the surface: Is our earth the only world in all of space that has intelligent inhabitants? Or is there life on other worlds—perhaps intelligent beings like ourselves or maybe even more intelligent than ourselves? Might they visit us?... Is there? Could there be? Planets that are inhabited by intelligent beings can exist—we live on one. And as we think of all the galaxies, it is utterly unthinkable that among the uncountable billions upon billions of stars and galaxies throughout space, intelligent beings exist on only one world in this whole vast universe. If only one star in a million should have inhabitable planets, that would still leave over 100,000 such systems in our own galaxy alone! And galaxies like ours exist by the billions!... ...Not only do we know about the existence of people on other worlds; Latter-day Saints know also that people from other worlds visit the earth! Earth has been receiving visitors from outer space for years, and these visitors have been leaving highly intelligent messages for our benefit. When we put this all in perspective, it becomes very exciting: intelligent beings from a higher culture have visited earth frequently. In fact, isn’t that a large part of the gospel message? Let’s review some of the things that we as Latter-day Saints know about outer space. People on Other Worlds In June 1830 the Lord gave to the Prophet Joseph Smith by revelation some of the earlier writings of Moses, the man who took Israel out of Egypt fifteen hundred years before Christ, thousands of years before even Jules Verne wrote stories about outer space. Here is what Joseph Smith learned about Moses’ experiences: “And calling upon the name of God, he [Moses] beheld his glory again, for it was upon him; and he heard a voice, saying: Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters; for they shall obey thy command as if thou wert God. “And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; … “And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, … “And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. “And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them? “And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. “And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose. … “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. “And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. “And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. “And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak. “And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shall write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men—among as many as believe.” 2 The message of these few verses is stunning! People on many worlds! Right now! Living, working, playing, creating, doing things—right now! Of special interest are the last two verses, wherein the Lord tells Moses about Joseph Smith’s role in giving these truths to the world again. Notice, however, that only those who believe were to know these things. That’s why the world at large doesn’t understand anything about Moses’ revelation. The world as yet hasn’t placed the Pearl of Great Price on its nightstand for its evening reading. Of course, Moses and Joseph Smith weren’t the only ones to learn of other worlds. Enoch, a thousand years before Moses, said, “And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still. …” 3 The apostle Paul knew of these things also. He spoke of God’s Son, “whom he hath appointed heir of all things,” being the one “by whom also he made the worlds.” 4 Brigham Young has said, “… there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.” 5 How Long Has This Been Going On? This insight of the gospel into the subject of outer space is what makes the whole subject meaningful. When you look up into the heavens at night and see the countless numbers of stars, it is easy to imagine other people “out there” being tested and tried and experiencing struggles and joys somewhat similar to those we are going through. But the most exciting thing about this whole basic and fundamental concept is that it is true. Totally and completely true. People growing, developing, and finding fulfillment—out there! The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …” 6 “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and … God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. … And where was there ever a father without first being a son? … If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? … “He [Jesus] laid down His life, and took it up, the same as His Father had done before.” 7 Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them, and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, celestial world. 8 Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of all that he had, continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posterity—the same as their Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on. With these things in mind, W. W. Phelps, in a hymn, asks the question: “If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward With that same speed to fly, D’ye think that you could ever, Through all eternity, Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?” 9 Nothing is more basic in the restored gospel than these truths that, because of recent events of space travel, are so timely. The great hope of the gospel for us is that we may come to a oneness with our Lord and our Father and partake of this same work and glory and godhood. Being joint-heirs of all that the Father has, we may then look forward to using those powers to organize still other worlds from the unorganized matter that exists throughout boundless space. Creating other worlds, peopling them with our own eternal posterity, providing a savior for them, and making known to them the saving principles of the eternal gospel, that they may have the same experiences we are now having and be exalted with us in their turn—this is eternal life. 10 No wonder this possibility continues to fascinate and inspire Saints of all ages. This hope is what inspires members of the Church to seek eternal marriage and to seek in all things to be one with our Lord Jesus Christ, because we want to be with him and participate in all the marvelous things of which Paul the apostle said: “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” 11 Differences in Other Worlds Another basic truth is that all of the worlds out there are not the same. Some are celestial. Some are terrestrial. Some are telestial. Some, such as ours, are in a phase of temporal existence. And there are other phases, probably some we don’t even know of. The Lord has said that “there is no space in which there is no kingdom … either a greater or a lesser kingdom.” He has also said, “All kingdoms have a law given.” All kingdoms are not given the same laws, but “unto every law there are certain bounds. …” 12 Our earth and its inhabitants are under the laws of temporal existence. 13 We know a little about the bounds of the laws of this earth’s temporal existence. We know that our world is to undergo a major change to prepare for the Millennium. Many fascinating things are going to happen. Few other events in all scripture have been so clearly and definitively outlined as that which will happen to our world in preparation for and during a one-thousand-year period called the Millennium. But that is a subject for another article. It’s enough to point out here that our earth is now subject to one set of laws, and in the future it will be subject to another set of laws. In other words, our world already has gone through and will yet go through certain planned phases. The same thing happens to other worlds in outer space. A vital point to remember here is that our science—our core of understanding concerning the operations of our world—is based on experience. And human experience apart from God’s revelations has been limited to a world under a temporal set of laws. We can hope to determine with some accuracy the scientific laws and principles that pertain to this order of the world. But if we assume a uniformity in space and time so complete that we picture the whole universe—past, present, and future—as being subject to the same order that God has given our temporal world, we fail to understand the potentially rich variety of other types of laws that God has given to other worlds. Many of these worlds have passed to a higher state of existence than our own. Interestingly, the revelations from the Lord do assure us that worlds and heavens do continue one above the other. 14 As our earth’s atmosphere (“firmament” or “expanse”) in which the birds fly is sometimes referred to as a “heaven,” 15 so also our solar system of planets is referred to as the earth’s heavens. 16 Seemingly, this order of heavens is what is referred to when the Lord promised that “the heavens and the earth shall pass away” and there shall be “new heavens and a new earth.” 17 But there are heavens beyond the “heavens” for our earth. “… the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee,” wrote Solomon. 18 And Joseph Smith commented: “the heaven of heavens could not contain him [Christ]; for he took the liberty to go into other heavens.” 19 We do not know how extensive is the order of heavens that pertain to our Lord Jesus Christ and that were created by him. It may consist of the local group of stars to which our sun belongs, or of our whole galaxy, or of our cluster of galaxies, or of all of the galaxies we have so far discovered. Abraham was shown that in our Lord’s system of heavens, one planet exists above another “until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which … is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order” as our earth. 20 As a side note, unbelievers have always found it difficult to picture the work and power of the Lord on such a vast scale. In the days of St. Augustine, 400 years after Christ, Christian scholars vigorously debated the possibility of people living on the other side of our world! Men debated whether such a land, virtually another world, actually existed, and if it did, whether it was inhabited by men of some form or other. Their speculations and questions about another “world” at the antipodes almost exactly parallel those of our own science about other worlds in space. Augustine himself came to the conclusion that if there were such a place, it could not be inhabited by men. A similar problem to Augustine’s arose once again in the time of Copernicus and Galileo. At that time the apostate Christian church had accepted the science of Aristotle, which taught that there was but one earth, located at the very center or lowest place in the universe. When Copernicus proposed his new theory of the order of the universe, he placed the sun at the center and the earth in the heavens. It opened the door once again to the question of other worlds. Centuries later, when Columbus and other explorers found that there truly was a “new world” in the midst of the ocean, and that it was inhabited by men, Christian missionaries lost no time in trying to convert them. Once men had crossed the “impossible” ocean barrier, the “new world” became one with the old world and the problem simply disappeared. The Book of Mormon throws a flood of light on the relationship of the gospel to the ancient inhabitants of America. The Lord could, and did, send angels and revelations of his truths to prophets in America as well as to prophets in Palestine. And though Augustine and the men of his time could not cross the oceans to America, the resurrected Christ certainly could—and did. Certainly it is no harder for the Lord to visit other worlds than it was for him to visit the Nephites on this continent after his resurrection. When speaking of other worlds, the Lord told Joseph Smith that “all these are kingdoms,” and he likened them to a field in which different servants labored, each of which he visited in turn; “and thus they all received the light of the countenance of their Lord. … Therefore, unto this parable will I liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.” 21 What Do People on Other Worlds Look Like? A great many Christians today, influenced by the modern teaching of the evolutionary origin of man from lower species, have long since abandoned the doctrine that man was created in the image of God. Since before the time of Augustine, the living God of revelation and the scriptures has been replaced by the god of Greek philosophy—a being without body, parts, or passions, beyond the bounds of time and space. These Christians, as well as persons who believe in no religion whatever, expect that the chance processes of evolution on other worlds would most likely bring about intelligent beings quite different from man. All of us have been made more or less familiar with this kind of thinking on a less refined scale through the green, bug-eyed monster types of popular science fiction. Such things make interesting reading for the unknowledgeable, but no Latter-day Saint need be left in doubt. There is nothing more fundamental in God’s revelations than the basic premise that we are of the race of Gods. We are of his species. God looks like us. We look like him. He has two arms, two legs, a head—indeed, Jesus said, “If ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father.” Obviously, God’s sons and daughters would be of his species, would resemble him. This was one of the basic truths Joseph Smith knew after his vision in 1820. Consequently, people on other worlds would be like us, because we are all his children. The world may think of green, bug-eyed monsters, and science fiction movies may fascinate and enthrall, but they are pure fiction! People “out there” are like people here, because we are all of the race of Gods. Visitors from Outer Space A final note to this most brief summary of some of the things that the Lord has told us concerning outer space is concerned with the possibility of visitors from outer space. Anyone interested in intelligent beings on other worlds ponders the obvious question: Could a person from outer space ever come to earth? Any Latter-day Saint knows the answer. Of course visitors from outer space can come to earth! They’ve been doing it for six thousand years! God and angels visited Adam. Visitations of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ to the earth are recorded in the Old and New Testaments, as well as visitations by angels. The Book of Mormon has numerous accounts of visitations. The Father and the Son visited Joseph Smith in 1820. Space travel seems to be quite common! In our temporal existence, we may not be able to travel to worlds beyond our solar system, but other beings in other phases of existence are not so limited. The gospel has been taught in every dispensation by space travel. True, the visitors do not use rocket ships—they have more efficient means. When Moroni returned to heaven after one of his visits to Joseph Smith, Joseph “saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared. …” 22 God continues to guide his prophets and his people by the revelations of the Spirit. That is nothing else but communication with other, more intelligent beings from another world. Communication with other worlds is not a future possibility; it is a present fact! Through such communication we have learned much from the wisdom of superior beings—information that can solve our earthly problems, if we will listen. What is the Millennium all about if it is not simply a period when earthly civilization will be brought under the government of superior beings from another world who will visit earth frequently to direct affairs on earth! Indeed, when looked at in perspective, the gospel becomes enormously exciting and sophisticated. “Christ and the resurrected Saints will reign over the earth during the thousand years. They will not probably dwell upon the earth, but will visit it when they please, or when it is necessary to govern it.” 23 But these beings from outer space, or another world, will not be aliens. They will be our brethren who have lived upon this earth in mortality. All of us in the Church are expending our energies in the gospel partly because of the assignment from the Lord to inform the world of this coming visitation by him and other people from outer space, or from the heavens. It is obvious, therefore, that if we are to help prepare the world to receive these visitors we must know something ourselves about other worlds, the people on them, why we are here, and what is yet going to happen to this world. No one on earth should know more about outer space—and talk more about it—than Latter-day Saints. It is good that the world’s attention has been turned to the moon. If the journeys into space did nothing but turn mankind’s mind once more to the age-old questions about other worlds and life on them—if it did only this—Neal Armstrong’s footprints on the moon will have served a tremendously significant mission. |
| Subject: | Another one |
| Date: | Aug 30 16:06 |
| Author: | Sophocles |
| Mail Address: |
| My last link didn't work, so I hope you don't mind if I just post
the thing here. This one comes from the Q&A section in the November 1985 Ensign (after the petting question): “Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?” Answer/Brother Larry C. Porter As one contemplates the far-reaching implications posed by this searching question, the reader will readily appreciate the fact that we can get beyond the bounds of our understanding in a hurry. From the outset it would be well to state a general premise. We know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of this earth, and we also know that he is the Savior of an “infinite” number of worlds beyond the confines of this sphere. Although many specific aspects of this question must remain open-ended we are, fortunately, not without some very important insights into such an imposing query. Aided by revelation and scriptural enlightenment, the Prophet Joseph Smith and a succession of Church leaders have added significantly to our comprehension of the role of Jesus Christ as Savior of this and other worlds. The Son of God is both a Creator and a Redeemer. Therefore our question must necessarily embrace both functions simultaneously. Observations from the Book of Moses, given to the Prophet Joseph Smith as early as 1830-31, provide an invaluable key in the matter. As Moses was transfigured and stood in the presence of God, “he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof” (Moses 1:29). Moved by the panoramic spectacle before him, Moses asked that he be shown “why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?” (Moses 1:30). He was instructed: “By the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:32-33). The Son then is the creator of “worlds without number” under the auspices of the Father. This fact is similarly confirmed by the Apostle Paul in the meridian of time. Paul knew of Christ’s activities in the preparation of multiple worlds and expressed the same when he stated: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds” (Heb. 1:1-2; italics added). Relative to the role of the Son as Redeemer to this earth, the prophet Enoch received an explanation of Adam’s fall and also was told that “the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt” (Moses 6:54). He was further informed that, under the conditions of that atonement, mankind would be “cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory” (Moses 6:59). If redemption is the work of the Lord in this earth, what then is understood concerning his participation as a redeemer in the other worlds referred to? The Prophet Joseph Smith expanded our understanding of Christ’s relationship to those habitations. While at the John Johnson home in Hiram, Ohio, during 1832, he and Sidney Rigdon beheld what has been referred to as a “vision of glories.” Concerning this revelation they bore witness: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! “For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— “That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22-24; italics added). Christ’s acts of redemption in other worlds, which are certainly implied but not directly stated in the above reference, were clarified by the Prophet Joseph Smith years later. During the Nauvoo period (1843) the Prophet gave a poetic interpretation of his earlier “vision of heav’n” (D&C 76). By way of introduction to Joseph’s poem, the editor of the Times and Seasons said of the illuminating verse to follow: “Uncontrolled by the narrow limits of this earth, and raised above all sublunary objects, his mind soars aloft unto other kingdoms, unravels the secrets of eternity, and contemplates the organization of worlds, in other spheres … together with the laws that govern other worlds, and the state of their inhabitants” (Times and Seasons, 4:81). Then Joseph’s verses paralleling Doctrine and Covenants 76:22-24 [D&C 76:22-24] are given in poetical rhyme: And now after all of the proofs made of him, By witnesses truly, by whom he was known, This is mine, last of all, that he lives; yea he lives! And sits at the right hand of God, on his throne. And I heard a great voice, bearing record from heav’n, He’s the Saviour, and only begotten of God— By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made, Even all that career in the heavens so broad, Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last, Are sav’d by the very same Saviour of ours; And, of course, are begotten God’s daughters and sons. By the very same truths, and the very same pow’rs. (Times and Seasons, 4:82-83, stanzas 18-20) The Prophet’s response clearly reveals his knowledge that the inhabitants of the other worlds described, “Are sav’d by the very same Saviour of ours.” Joseph emphasized the validity of what he had seen on that momentous occasion by asserting: I, Joseph, the prophet, in spirit beheld, And the eyes of the inner man truly did see Eternity sketch’d in a vision from God. Of what was, and now is, and yet is to be. (Times and Seasons, 4:82) Contemporaries of the Prophet similarly testified of the realities expressed by their file leader. Orson Pratt held the position that “If the penalty of the original sin be the eternal separation of body and spirit, how can justice have all its demands, and mercy be shown to the transgressor? There is a way and how? It is by the introduction of His Only Begotten Son, the Son of His own bosom, the first born of every creature, holding the birthright over every creation He has made, and holding the keys of salvation over millions of worlds like this; he has a right to come forth and suffer the penalty of death for the fallen sons and daughters of man” (Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1962, pp. 361-62; italics added). Similarly, President John Taylor maintained that Jesus Christ was the “Creator of worlds” and that he held “the keys of the government of other worlds.” President Taylor also professed that, “He holds the keys of salvation” where those other worlds are concerned. (See Mediation and Atonement, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1882, pp. 76-77.) In the present day this theme has again been addressed by scriptorians. Elder Marion G. Romney has recognized the part played by Christ in the broader plan of the Father as it relates to this and other worlds: “Jesus Christ, in the sense of being its Creator and Redeemer, is the Lord of the whole universe. Except for his mortal ministry accomplished on this earth, his service and relationship to other worlds and their inhabitants are the same as his service and relationship to this earth and its inhabitants” (“Jesus Christ Lord of the Universe,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1968, p. 46). Elder Bruce R. McConkie has also testified that, “Christ is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds so numerous that they cannot be numbered by man” (“Christ and the Creation,” Ensign, June 1982, p. 10). Elder McConkie further attested: “When the prophets speak of an infinite atonement, they mean just that. Its effects cover all men, the earth itself and all forms of life thereon, and reach out into the endless expanse of eternity. … And through the power of his atonement the inhabitants of these worlds, the revelation says, ‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:24), which means that the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an infinite number of earths” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, pp. 64, 65). The Lord has placed the door slightly ajar and allowed his prophets to give us an infinitesimal glimpse of the eternal worlds. When God gave Moses an introduction to the existence of other spheres, Moses became so imbued with the scene before him that he desired to know more. However, the Lord cautioned: “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them” (Moses 1:35). For the present, man must be content with the “account of this earth” while waiting on the providence of the Lord to teach him more concerning the interaction of Jesus Christ with an infinite number of other orbs and their inhabitants. |
| Subject: | ADMIN is likely to tell you how EVIL you are for posting a WHOLE |
| Date: | Aug 30 16:33 |
| Author: | SusieQ#! |
| Mail Address: |
| article! Now that is mean! This stuff just makes me want to gag. I must have been asleep when I heard that junk. Or else, I just ran it through my FILTER and said: that is just his weird/wacked out OPINION! |
| Subject: | Referece to Brigham's teaching on a Savior for each world |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:11 |
| Author: | tbm eavesdropper |
| Mail Address: |
| Journal of Discources 14:71. See also JD 9:108. i'm not sure if there is a link on line, if so maybe someone could post it. |
| Subject: | I'm not sure they teach that anymore. It's from the JoD. What are you doing reading the JoD?? |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:22 |
| Author: | Breeze |
| Mail Address: |
| Weren't the members asked to turn them in, yeah, even those many years ago? It's dangerous stuff. |
| Subject: | Hinckley would like you to burn your copy of the JoD, please. |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:28 |
| Author: | girl in the box |
| Mail Address: |
| He doesn't know if the church teaches that, and so would like to
avoid confusion by destroying all evidence that it ever existed. ;-) Feel free to read "Miracle of Forgiveness" however and then go shoot yourself because you're such a miserable, dirty, evil sinner! |
| Subject: | Link & Quote (no Goethe, though, believe me!) |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:29 |
| Author: | Breeze |
| Mail Address: |
| Reverse Order Quote: How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through, Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof,[p.72] in their torn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through. Like I said, it's not Goethe, but, hey! at least it's in English! Link: http://www.concordance.com/cgi-bin/contr.pl Go to bottom of page to page finder and scroll to 14:17. It's pretty easy and, msmom, you don't have to give personal information. |
| Subject: | Better link... |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:30 |
| Author: | Breeze |
| Mail Address: |
| http://www.concordance.com/cgi-bin/begnr.pl |
| Subject: | Thanks for the reference! n/t |
| Date: | Aug 30 17:38 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| Mail Address: | makurosu@rocketmail.com |
| Subject: | Statistically speaking... |
| Date: | Aug 31 03:31 |
| Author: | DeafGuy |
| Mail Address: |
| Archimedes wrote: > That always seemed incredibly unlikely to me. Geez, we won the lottery! Of all the millions and millions of inhabited worlds, we all landed on the most evil possible one! What are the odds....? > > In addition to the statistical unlikeliness of this being the most evil of all worlds Actually, stats don't work like that. For instance, consider a large, sandy beach, with billions upon billions of grains of sand. If you reach out and pick up a grain of sand, the statistical probability that you would select that exact grain of sand is one out of billions X billions. Compared to any one grain of sand's chance of getting picked, you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery several times over. And yet, despite the incredible unlikelihood of getting picked out, there's the unavoidable fact that one grain of sand is picked out. Even if you left that beach and went somewhere like the Sahara desert, where there's a vast amount of yet more sand, making it indefinitely more improbable that any given grain of sand will be picked out, still, one grain of sand is picked out. In other words, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen somewhere, and if there is a "most wicked" world out of all the worlds in the universe, one world has to be that most wicked world, no matter how improbable it is for the general case. And hence, assuming the general idea were correct, statistical improbability doesn't make for an argument against earth being the most wicked world in the universe. Statistical improbabilities just don't apply in this sort of case. There's a name for this sort of thing, some kind of principle, but I can't remember what it's called... |