| Subject: | Internet "enemies of the church" - FAIR Conference |
| Date: | Aug 15 09:32 |
| Author: | Ray A |
| FAIR Conference 2002 |
| FAIR conference participant: ?Where else can you go to really learn about these things?? says Sam Katich. ?I mean, let?s face it, the enemies of the Church are all over the place, poisoning the Internet, spreading their wings. Never before, has there been such an event that enables members of the church to come and learn of the answers.? The FAIR conference "was an outstanding success". http://www.ldsmag.com/breakingnews/020815lds.html Plural marriage a hit: "Dr. Kathryn Daynes, a BYU Professor of History, and author of the recently released book, More Wives Than One, shared the results of her lengthy study on plural marriage from the arrival of the saints in Utah to the 1890 manifesto. Her findings were absolutely outstanding. ?Dr. Daynes shared much light on the issues of who, what, when and why, regarding plural marriage,? Gale Tenney said. And of course, the BOM: From the days of the early church, 170 years ago, to today, Dr. Peterson demonstrated the absolute failure, time and time again, of anyone to present an alternative explanation to the divine origins of the Book of Mormon and the prophetic call of Joseph Smith. There is nothing left, but the divine, to explain it. |
| Subject: | Sniff...sniff... I smell fear. |
| Date: | Aug 15 09:51 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| Mail Address: |
| "Great googly moogly! Uncomfortable stuff is spreading beyond
our control!!" cried the apologist. "Lets get a couple hundred people together
to proclaim the latest spin!" Meanwhile, the truth spreads. |
| Subject: | Like a flatulent gnat in a hurricane! |
| Date: | Aug 15 09:58 |
| Author: | Ron G. |
| Mail Address: |
| FAIR ain't gonna make a lot of difference to the real world... :-) Ron |
| Subject: | Exactly! |
| Date: | Aug 15 10:06 |
| Author: | kilgore |
| Mail Address: |
| FAIR is so lame that you have to believe first and be desperate for justification to continue to do so or you won't be impressed with anything they have to say. |
| Subject: | Strange definition of success |
| Date: | Aug 15 10:01 |
| Author: | kilgore |
| "Never before, has there been such an event that enables
members of the church to come and learn of the answers." BS! FAIR and FARMS don't provide any answers! They never have. They just try to poke holes into alternate explanations that they dislike. They don't search for the truth or new answers. They just grab at straws trying to discredit anyone who doesn't believe them. A more honest description would be, "Never before, has there been such an event that enables members of the church to rationalize away so many concerns raised by those who don't know what we already claim to know." For example, they DON'T have an answer for how the BofA translation worked, they just have SEVERAL possibilities that supposedly show logical problems in critics' claims. But they never answer the question about whether it was a literal translation from lost fragments, or moderns Egyptologists don't really know how to translate, or it was a catalyst for a revelation, or, or, or, or.... The only answer was "this is some stuff to hang onto so you don't have to give up your testimony in the face of these otherwise convincing argumernts." And Peterson has PROVEN that no one can claim non-divine authorship of the BofM? What in the Hell has he and this writer been smoking? |
| Subject: | Re: Internet "enemies of the church" - FAIR Conference |
| Date: | Aug 15 10:02 |
| Author: | Trixie |
| "From the days of the early church, 170 years ago, to today,
Dr. Peterson demonstrated the absolute failure, time and time again, of anyone to present
an alternative explanation to the divine origins of the Book of Mormon and the prophetic
call of Joseph Smith. There is nothing left, but the divine, to explain it." What a fascinating talk THAT must have been!!!!! |
| Subject: | Once again, FAIR fulfills its purpose... |
| Date: | Aug 15 12:23 |
| Author: | Archimedes |
| Mail Address: |
| ...to give the church membership and SLC bigwigs that comforting
feeling that there are "inta-lec-shuals" out there who have addressed all the
nagging, sticky issues. As a result, we don't need to worry our little heads about things
like polygamy, or racism in the church, or the origin of the Book of Mormon... After all,
these things are not really problems or issues for the church, they're just stepping
stones!! Mike Ash admits, “It’s really amazing to learn that those issues you thought were difficult to talk about actually aren’t difficult at all, once you learn about them. They really are stepping stones.” The article is hilarious in its superficiality. Even though it is "breaking news", there is no substance. It is all just appeal to authority. Some examples follow. On the translation of the Book of Mormon: Dr. Skousen presented some of his findings (as many as could be presented in an hour) and commented that the most significant were his discoveries that the process of translation was so systematic and consistent. He has concluded that everything he has learned only adds to the fact that the Book of Mormon was the result of a divine translation process. I guess Joe was consistent in sticking his head in the hat before dictating his master work...Whatever, dude...Skousen says it's so, it must be so! On polygamy: Dr. Kathryn Daynes, a BYU Professor of History, and author of the recently released book, More Wives Than One, shared the results of her lengthy study on plural marriage from the arrival of the saints in Utah to the 1890 manifesto. Her findings were absolutely outstanding. “Dr. Daynes shared much light on the issues of who, what, when and why, regarding plural marriage,” Gale Tenney said. So, share some of that light with us. Why don't you start with how Emma herself felt about her husband's philandering? On racism: The biggest splash made at the conference was the presentation by Renee Olson. Renee is a black female and former anti-Mormon. She was certified by the Southern Baptist Convention in “Mormonism,” at one time. She is now a faithful member of the Church and spoke on the issue of blacks and the priesthood, in addition to racism in the church, in general. “It was, by far, the best thing on the race issue I’ve ever experienced,” according to Kevin Barney. “Renee has a certain credibility that none of us could ever muster.” With all due respect, Renee's "certain credibility" is what, that she's black??? This really smacks of tokenism to me. "Oh, look -- here's a black member of the church who doesn't have a problem with it's racist past." On the divine origin of the Book of Mormon: From the days of the early church, 170 years ago, to today, Dr. Peterson demonstrated the absolute failure, time and time again, of anyone to present an alternative explanation to the divine origins of the Book of Mormon and the prophetic call of Joseph Smith. There is nothing left, but the divine, to explain it. Uh.. how about, he made it up??? Where's your Occam's razor, dude? What does this article, and probably the entire conference itself, really provide? One big poof of fluff. The message to the membership is the same old "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"... All these problems have been addressed by our faithful inta-lec-shuals, and you don't need to worry your little heads over them. And, by the way, don't wander into that poisoned cesspool that is the internet if you have questions... My Gawd, it's full of people who have actually thought critically about these issues! Regards, Arch. |
| Subject: | the great and powerful |
| Date: | Aug 15 12:37 |
| Author: | blabbermeister |
| Mail Address: |
| Archimedes wrote: The message to the membership is the same old "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." --good shite, man. |
| Subject: | Well said, Archimedes |
| Date: | Aug 15 12:55 |
| Author: | Nightingale |
| Mail Address: |
| ...the process of translation was so systematic and consistent.
He has concluded that everything he has learned only adds to the fact that the Book of
Mormon was the result of a divine translation process. I have a special interest in the translation process. I'd love to know how any of these thinkers can accept JSs system? Compared to groups of scholars and linguists with pre-set impartial accuracy standards who translate ancient works, how does JSs method measure up? And what is "everything he has learned"? Did he enlarge on that statement, I wonder? I guess I'm learning well from my reasonable pal, DeafGuy - even I can see in a flash that this statement is not logical: There is nothing left, but the divine, to explain it. Not to mention, it's laughable when applied to the BoM. I'm starting to feel acutely embarrassed about choosing to be a Mormon. (I've been staving off that feeling so far but I can feel it coming on). I enjoyed your points, Archimedes. And I find this thread to be quite inta-lec-shual, even if it's in "that poisoned cesspool"! |
| Subject: | They are admitting defeat on the internet... |
| Date: | Aug 15 13:02 |
| Author: | Brian B. |
| Mail Address: |
| They cannot convince anyone with a computer and a brain to join the Morg. |
| Subject: | FAIR? The Wholesome Alternative to Sunstone? |
| Date: | Aug 15 13:41 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| Mail Address: |
| I recall another thread that pointed out the timing of the FAIR
conference and how it overlapped Sunstone. Anybody who thinks that's a coincidence see
Brian B. or me about some land deals in Florida. I've got it now! Let's take my cab down
that way, and we'll even look that land over . . . of course I'll have to run the meter .
. . I'm still mulling over my reply to the FAIR handout they gave us from the Book of Abraham film screening. At the suggestion of the author of the handout, I visited the FAIR website, and a half-hour's clicking on links (with a high-speed DSL) produced zero discussion of the Book of Abraham even though I did a search on the author's name. For those on a diet or otherwise willing to forego lunch, here's part of a paragraph from the handout where the author blasts three distuinguished Egyptologists who appeared in the film and commented on the papyrus and JS's transaltion. ---I am especially startled in this production at the inclusion of Ritner, Blomberg and Mouw. I would have thought that such a blatant attack on the religious beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be beneath them. It is certainly clear that the position of faithful LDS scholars and of the LDS Church in avoiding this media presentaion was justified.(p.8) Anybody out there have any trouble seeing why I am having trouble composing a reply? I think Dr. Ritner had the same problem. The challenge is keeping a straight face while you're doing it. He's more skilled than I, obviously. I keep breaking out into hysterical fits of laughter. |
| Subject: | Cabbie, the FAIR response was amazing. |
| Date: | Aug 15 19:12 |
| Author: | Ray A |
| Mail Address: | ago3@hotkey.net.au |
| "Agree with us or shut up." "You can't go around bashing religions for their beliefs, especially such a respectable one like ours." |
| Subject: | did you read the entire hand out? |
| Date: | Aug 15 21:20 |
| Author: | Trixie |
| Mail Address: |
| I downloaded it from the internet and haven't plowed through it yet.
It's kind of niblish. But I have read a bit about their general direction, and it seems to
be based on Abraham utilizing some mnemonic techniques from egyptians to create this
"code" document. One question I've asked supporters of this theory is why in the
WORLD Abraham, a Jew who worshipped a God who was a frothing fanatic about the Jews not
getting tainted with pagan sh*t, would utilize a pagan practice to write this book? I
still haven't gotten an answer. Watching believers try to rationalize the BoA is painful. Kind of like watching someone publically humiliate themselves without knowing it. Too painful to even laugh. I actually feel sorry for them. |
| Subject: | But Trixie, that's so very simple: |
| Date: | Aug 15 21:27 |
| Author: | Jezebel |
| Mail Address: |
| Abraham heard from very God, yea, Himself, that a side show would
one day stop near Joseph Smith, and he would get the very same papyrus, or at least
"a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy", as one mobot expressed herself, when I
asked how they can explain the fact that the papyrus is thousands of years younger than
the mythic Abraham ages. She never answered though, what the piece would be a copy OF,
LOL. Well anyway, the inconsistency with a jew hiding a code message on an Egyptian pagan papyrus (that didn't even exist in his time) doesn't seem to bother them the least bit. |
| Subject: | I wish the church would put the members out of their misery |
| Date: | Aug 15 21:31 |
| Author: | Trixie |
| God, put this issue to rest, it's torturing them. Why doesn't GBH
finally use his mantle and actually make the proclamation of a "seer". The
simplest dodge would be to say "the BoA was a spiritual translation, not a literal
one" and leave it at that. Maybe that way these poor people would stop torturing
themselves trying to find someone to make it an actual translation. I'm serious, it makes me sad. It's like watching someone make a fool of themselves in front of an entire audience. It's too painful to even laugh. You just grimace, and wish it were over. |
| Subject: | Yeah, I liked that paragraph as well . . . |
| Date: | Aug 16 02:43 |
| Author: | imaworkinonit |
| Mail Address: |
| SL Cabbie wrote: > > ---I am especially startled in this production at the inclusion of Ritner, Blomberg and Mouw. I would have thought that such a blatant attack on the religious beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be beneath them. It is certainly clear that the position of faithful LDS scholars and of the LDS Church in avoiding this media presentaion was justified.(p.8) > Fair is offended that some of the top scholars in egyptology would DARE to comment on Joseph Smith's translation of egyptian. Amazing. Like the scholars have a duty to shut up and let the fraud go unchecked. I thought they were very professional. That little handout made me MAD. It almost drove me to be an activist instead of a closet apostate. Again, like any B of A apologies I've read before, they ignored the simple fact that we DO have the originals of some of the facsimiles, AND we have JS's translation, word for word, with little letters to match it to the fascimiles. He either translated those facsimiles correctly or he didn't. And if he didn't, why would we believe ANYTHING JS said? They never want to talk about that. |
| Subject: | My friends here at work think that's hilarious! |
| Date: | Aug 15 13:46 |
| Author: | Makurosu |
| Mail Address: |
| I read that quote to some of my friends here at work. I'm in
Minneapolis, and none of them are Mormons or even know any Mormons. Read this again, and
imagine what a non-Mormon would think of this statement: "Where else can you go to really learn about these things?" says Sam Katich. "I mean, let's face it, the enemies of the Church are all over the place, poisoning the Internet, spreading their wings. Never before, has there been such an event that enables members of the church to come and learn of the answers." It sounds really nutty. And then the Church wonders why they can't get anybody on the Internet to take them seriously. |
| I wonder if mormons realize how silly many of their beliefs appear to nonmormons. |
| Subject: | Well, if they applied THAT logic to the BoA, we'd have... |
| Date: | Aug 15 15:44 |
| Author: | January |
| Mail Address: |
| "From the days of the early church, 170 years ago, to today, Dr. Peterson demonstrated the absolute failure, time and time again, of anyone to present a realistic explanation to the origins of the Book of Abraham and why it doesn't jive with translations by Egyptologists . There is nothing left, but a hoax, to explain it." |
| Subject: | I actually corresponded with a FAIR guy |
| Date: | Aug 15 18:55 |
| Author: | Bob |
| Mail Address: |
| I won't mention his name, because he might get in trouble. But it is
someone who has written for FAIR and FARMS and is a BYU professor. We were discussing the
languistic issues with Native American languages vs. languages descended from Egyptian. We went back and forth about how little evidence there is supporting the church's position. Finally, he said, there only needs to be a sliver of hope for our work to be justified. He was saying that even if the chances are 1 in a million, those chances are adequate...because we already know what happened from scripture. When he said that, I responded that the overwhelming abundance of evidence should support his position, if it is the right one. But since 999,999 of 1 million chances are against him and he believes anyway, his scholarship can be questioned, but not his faith. Anyway, I followed that last bit with this, "So tell me, why do you spend so much effort to find the needle in the haystack when it won't change you and it won't change me?" He never answered. Bob |
| Subject: | oh say what is truth? |
| Date: | Aug 16 04:07 |
| Author: | blabbermeister |
| Mail Address: |
| It's unfortunate that no one has a good chance at getting out of the
web of trickery (http://www.fair-lds.org/apol/)
unless they study mormon history and issues for years. Most of the articles are several
pages long, yet never deal directly with the issue. Then they end with, (wait for it)
spiritual witnesses are the important thing. Huh? So why did I just spend 1/2 hour reading
this stuff on evidence? Why do YOU (FARMS) have a career based on defending this stuff,
when all I need is a spiritual witness? Like Trixie said, it's very sad, not only to see how desperate the apologetics are, but to know that regular members of the church don't have a very good chance of getting out of the bubble because their leaders won't make official statements on problematic issues, the FARMS people just cite each other infinitely, the FAIR people admittedly can't make official statements, and they quote the FARMS people and church leaders. It's like being in a sealing room at the temple, with those opposing mirrors reflecting each other for eternity. That's my definition of a closed system. It's maddeningly sad. |